Author Topic: Richard Chycki says he's currently mixing a DT live album **DO NOT POST LINKS**  (Read 84807 times)

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Offline bosk1

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This is not taken from any actual Knowledge, its just assumption: i think JP had his eyes set on having a special show with choir and orchestra, and when the plans for that fell out, they didn’t have a backup plan. Added into the fact that dvd sales are really really poor, and the astonishing wasn’t a major success, putting up that show and filming it might not have been financially viable at all. A lot of the other stuff (video game, book, etc) was already signed for and paid for. Cancelling would only be sunk cost for them.
What JP told me was fairly close to this, so yes.

much smaller bands like Neal Morse Band, Opeth etc put out live DVDs constantly. You just need a few cameras. I know the market has decreased a lot and Youtube makes it free, but DT should be able to ''afford'' it

I'm sure they can afford it, but I also get the drive to not want to release something unless it's better than the last thing you released. Even as an amateur creator who only occasionally gets paid for any creative work I do outside my 9-5, I totally get that drive. As an artist, you want to show that you can surpass yourself, and you don't get anything out of cobbling together something just for the sake of collecting a check. If you look at the official things DT have released since MP left, it's very obvious to me that the days of "live album for the sake of live album" are over. Even though I haven't liked much of what they've done recently, the spirit of progression, and doing things that are bigger, better, and different than things done in the past is present. I don't know for certain that JP and the band ever wanted to release an official document of The Astonishing or the I&W tour, but it seems like if they did have the budget/capabilities to do a live release, there were other factors aside from purely financial ones that held them back from feeling great about doing so.

Exactly.  And for TA, they wanted it to be a high-quality job, which the album called for, and not just a few cameras in a small club.  I love what a lot of other bands do in putting out live recordings on a budget.  But that isn't what was called for if they did TA live. 
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Offline dparrott

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They never meant for it to be a DVD.

I have insistered they should.

They will probably release it now.

"insistered?"   :lol

And how long ago was that??  Yea I've given up hope on this.  Unless this is a "hey we are releasing a live album next month" thing, which so much is announced in advance, I don't see this happening with a new album on the way.
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Offline noxon

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Thats what happens when you quickly type something :P

I have been talking to them about it since march. Last week was the previous time it was brought up. So....

Offline nikatapi

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Damn, James sounds pretty bad on this. on the DT12 tour he was more OK, but i think that during TA and I&W tours he was in a pretty bad shape.
Image quality seems amazing though i have to admit, maybe one of the best coming from DT.
Also, what is with JP using so much chorus on his tone (even distorted one)?

Offline danidogma

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This is not taken from any actual Knowledge, its just assumption: i think JP had his eyes set on having a special show with choir and orchestra, and when the plans for that fell out, they didn’t have a backup plan. Added into the fact that dvd sales are really really poor, and the astonishing wasn’t a major success, putting up that show and filming it might not have been financially viable at all. A lot of the other stuff (video game, book, etc) was already signed for and paid for. Cancelling would only be sunk cost for them.

The difference is that for me, "The Astonishing" would be much more interesting visually although I also understand that if sales have not been good they don't want to risk with a live release.

Offline ?

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Crowdfunding seems to be the most viable option for DVDs nowadays, but I get the feeling that JP and co. are old-school and would prefer to do it the traditional way. I mean, just look at their album-making process: they still book an actual studio for the sessions while many other bands record their parts at home or have their own HQ where they can handle the recording.

Offline Lethean

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I thought about crowdfunding as well - there was a Q&A during the tour last year where JP said that no one buys DVDs anymore but I think it's a real shame if they don't do anymore.  I'd have no problem with them crowdfunding it and those who say they want it and would buy it can thus pre-order it.

Offline cramx3

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I thought about crowdfunding as well - there was a Q&A during the tour last year where JP said that no one buys DVDs anymore but I think it's a real shame if they don't do anymore.  I'd have no problem with them crowdfunding it and those who say they want it and would buy it can thus pre-order it.

If thats the case, just put it on youtube through the official channel and turn on advertising to make some dough.  Iron Maiden did this for their latest release, it was also a lower quality video than traditional so it worked well to do it that way.

Either way, I think a band like DT is too big to attempt a crowdfunding project.  They have money from the label to do these things if it makes sense, and the sad reality is the last two tours it hasn't made sense I guess.

Offline Lethean

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Maybe I was just lucky but JLB sounded amazing at the I&W show that I saw, couldn’t fault him at all which is amazing considering his age and that these songs are from 25 years ago. Yes he didn’t go for some of the really big notes in some of the early songs like Another Day and Take The Time but what he did was perfectly fine. From Metropolis onwards though he went for everything and sang those songs as they are on the record. The band also sounded incredible, Petrucci’s guitar sound was just amazing on the night.

He was great at most of the shows I saw as well, but I wouldn't say he sang any of the I&W songs exactly like the record (and that's fine by me).  I haven't heard the Budokan material but I can believe he was having a rough night and then if they had some other kind of effects making it even worse, sounds like it's an unfortunate situation all around.  Maybe for something like that, if they really want to release it but can't do much with the vocals, they could use vocals from other shows.  I dunno.  Apparently on Fates Warning's live album, they didn't just pick the best band performance of each song, but the best band member performance - so you could have Ray's performance on song X being from one city and the drums on the same track being from another, etc.  It would be harder to pull off for a video release vs just audio, but maybe there's something DT can do.

Offline The Walrus

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Maybe I was just lucky but JLB sounded amazing at the I&W show that I saw, couldn’t fault him at all which is amazing considering his age and that these songs are from 25 years ago. Yes he didn’t go for some of the really big notes in some of the early songs like Another Day and Take The Time but what he did was perfectly fine. From Metropolis onwards though he went for everything and sang those songs as they are on the record. The band also sounded incredible, Petrucci’s guitar sound was just amazing on the night.

He was great at most of the shows I saw as well, but I wouldn't say he sang any of the I&W songs exactly like the record (and that's fine by me).  I haven't heard the Budokan material but I can believe he was having a rough night and then if they had some other kind of effects making it even worse, sounds like it's an unfortunate situation all around.  Maybe for something like that, if they really want to release it but can't do much with the vocals, they could use vocals from other shows.  I dunno.  Apparently on Fates Warning's live album, they didn't just pick the best band performance of each song, but the best band member performance - so you could have Ray's performance on song X being from one city and the drums on the same track being from another, etc.  It would be harder to pull off for a video release vs just audio, but maybe there's something DT can do.

Wow, really? I hate when bands do stuff like that. It sucks all the magic and fun of it being 'live' right out of it when you know it's fully doctored like that. Guess I'll be giving that one a HARD pass. :(
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Offline Zook

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Blind Guardian did that with one of their songs from their 2003 Live album.

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If his father is the guy who mixed the version of Behind The Veil that this guy has uploaded to his channel, get someone else to mix your album.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Wow, really? I hate when bands do stuff like that. It sucks all the magic and fun of it being 'live' right out of it when you know it's fully doctored like that. Guess I'll be giving that one a HARD pass. :(
Ummmm.....it still IS live - just from another performance. Better that than fixing it all in the studio after the fact, like has been done to so many "classic" live albums, including DT's Live at the Marquee! IIRC, this is something that Rush did on A Show of Hands, Different Stages, or both releases.

And just to be clear, I think it was used sparingly on FW's live album (as I believe was also the case on the Rush album(s)) - note what Ray says about it:
"The idea was that a live album is basically supposed to be live and there's no overdubs. The way we did it was we picked the different cities, different songs in different cities and basically, we would pull, if I did a bad part somewhere, we would pull that from another show and put that in there. It's edited together, it's all live, but some of it's from different shows. I'm not perfect. [Laughs] That was the cool idea that we would pull back and forth between different takes. It's sort of like when you record an album in the studio, you do the song ten times, then you pull the best part out of each and do it that way. I don't know if everyone does it that way, but we do it that way sometimes."
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Offline Architeuthis

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I couldn't imagine DT losing money on a dvd release. I think it's safe to say there are enough hard core fans that will buy any official release (including myself), so at least the band or the label won't take a loss.  It would be a bummer if TA or IAWAB tours both did not get documented somehow..
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 11:48:09 AM by Architeuthis »
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Offline The Walrus

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Wow, really? I hate when bands do stuff like that. It sucks all the magic and fun of it being 'live' right out of it when you know it's fully doctored like that. Guess I'll be giving that one a HARD pass. :(
Ummmm.....it still IS live - just from another performance. Better that than fixing it all in the studio after the fact, like has been done to so many "classic" live albums, including DT's Live at the Marquee! IIRC, this is something that Rush did on A Show of Hands, Different Stages, or both releases.

And just to be clear, I think it was used sparingly on FW's live album (as I believe was also the case on the Rush album(s)) - note what Ray says about it:
"The idea was that a live album is basically supposed to be live and there's no overdubs. The way we did it was we picked the different cities, different songs in different cities and basically, we would pull, if I did a bad part somewhere, we would pull that from another show and put that in there. It's edited together, it's all live, but some of it's from different shows. I'm not perfect. [Laughs] That was the cool idea that we would pull back and forth between different takes. It's sort of like when you record an album in the studio, you do the song ten times, then you pull the best part out of each and do it that way. I don't know if everyone does it that way, but we do it that way sometimes."

Ummmm..... I understand that. And I don't like it. Record the live performance and release it as is, don't pick and choose performances, then blend them into one track and call it live. That's not a real live track, it's a mishmash of cherry picked performances, it's pseudo-live. I know lots of bands do similar stuff, and I hate it. I also hate overdubbing. Record the freaking performance and then release it. That's all you should do. If your performance sucks, find a better show, or get better live.
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Offline pcs90

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Wow, really? I hate when bands do stuff like that. It sucks all the magic and fun of it being 'live' right out of it when you know it's fully doctored like that. Guess I'll be giving that one a HARD pass. :(
Ummmm.....it still IS live - just from another performance. Better that than fixing it all in the studio after the fact, like has been done to so many "classic" live albums, including DT's Live at the Marquee! IIRC, this is something that Rush did on A Show of Hands, Different Stages, or both releases.

And just to be clear, I think it was used sparingly on FW's live album (as I believe was also the case on the Rush album(s)) - note what Ray says about it:
"The idea was that a live album is basically supposed to be live and there's no overdubs. The way we did it was we picked the different cities, different songs in different cities and basically, we would pull, if I did a bad part somewhere, we would pull that from another show and put that in there. It's edited together, it's all live, but some of it's from different shows. I'm not perfect. [Laughs] That was the cool idea that we would pull back and forth between different takes. It's sort of like when you record an album in the studio, you do the song ten times, then you pull the best part out of each and do it that way. I don't know if everyone does it that way, but we do it that way sometimes."

Ummmm..... I understand that. And I don't like it. Record the live performance and release it as is, don't pick and choose performances, then blend them into one track and call it live. That's not a real live track, it's a mishmash of cherry picked performances, it's pseudo-live. I know lots of bands do similar stuff, and I hate it. I also hate overdubbing. Record the freaking performance and then release it. That's all you should do. If your performance sucks, find a better show, or get better live.

If bands are playing the songs virtually note for note every night I see no issue with this at all. Is it cheating? Maybe, but no band is perfect live and if they can fix screw-ups in a way that isn't noticeable I don't mind it, as long as there's still live energy. That being said I only care about live stuff if it's different from studio anyway.

Offline The Walrus

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My issue is with copying and pasting performances from other shows into the same song. So, yes, the parts are live, but if they're all cobbled together from different shows, it's not really live. Again, pseudo-live, and again, a personal peeve of mine (it annoys me to no end that Live At The Marquee was ruined for me when I found out James's voice was overdubbed big time in the studio). Plenty of bands released live shows without having to resort to such exhaustive means; curating the performances in such a way removes all the magic of live because you know it's not even a real show you're listening to, just someone cobbling parts together. That's just how I feel about it. It doesn't tell me the band is confident in their live shows when they resort to something like that. Again... just me. I don't care if there are flubs or it's not the 100% greatest live performance ever, but don't release something with live tracks that aren't actually the real thing and contain tracks from other shows.... if a concert is from September 12th in Poland, I want to hear what was played that night, damn it, not 80% of the song and 20% of it from a show the week before, that's stupid.
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Offline Evai

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I think the only way to see non-doctored live footage is to watch festival or TV broadcasts. NO-ONE releases live stuff that hasn't been 'fixed', simply for the fact that well... It sounds better, and no-one could possibly notice, if it's been done right. I have no idea why James admitted to the Live At Marquee thing, people would worship it if he hadn't said anything  :lol
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Offline The Walrus

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Yeah, I mean, 'fixed' is acceptable within certain boundaries, for me personally. I'm not asking for an undoctored performance and for everyone to be flawless, but if, across the entire album, you're copying and pasting entire performances from various shows and putting them into one and releasing that, that's not something I would spend money on. I like live releases that are one single performance, which is why even with my complaints about James live, I enjoy the last two Blu-rays a LOT  :biggrin:
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Offline bosk1

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That's fine if you feel that way.  I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise.  But a point of clarification on the LATM show:  we don't know the extent of the overdubs on that recording.  So to say that it was overdubbed "big time" is an assumption and may be WAY overstating what was done.
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Offline The Walrus

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That's fine if you feel that way.  I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise.  But a point of clarification on the LATM show:  we don't know the extent of the overdubs on that recording.  So to say that it was overdubbed "big time" is an assumption and may be WAY overstating what was done.

I'm just going off literally what several people said here when I inquired about it recently, that was the general consensus, so yeah.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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it annoys me to no end that Live At The Marquee was ruined for me when I found out James's voice was overdubbed big time in the studio
So up until that point, you loved LatM? As much as I agree that it sucks that they did all the overdubbing of his vocals in the studio, don't focus on that!
 
 
Yeah, I mean, 'fixed' is acceptable within certain boundaries, for me personally. I'm not asking for an undoctored performance and for everyone to be flawless, but if, across the entire album, you're copying and pasting entire performances from various shows and putting them into one and releasing that, that's not something I would spend money on.
Well if you're upset about FW picking songs from different shows, both because of performance and because different songs were played on different nights, and they wanted everything on one live album, then so be it. Live shows compiled from numerous dates are not for you.

But as the quote from Ray I included in my last post said, it sounds like they only grabbed different performances of some of his vocals from other shows in certain spots where maybe his vocals were not up to snuff. That part sounds completely within the bounds that you claim to find acceptable.
 
 
That's fine if you feel that way.  I'm not going to try to persuade you otherwise.  But a point of clarification on the LATM show:  we don't know the extent of the overdubs on that recording.  So to say that it was overdubbed "big time" is an assumption and may be WAY overstating what was done.
Well, we may not know the actual percentage, but when MP jokingly said many years ago that it should've been called "Live at the Marquee with James live in the studio", I think the implication is that the majority (if not all of it) was redone in the studio. Probably shouldn't say this and ruin another DT release for Kattoelox, but I'm pretty sure a good portion of the vocals from the Uncovered show were redone in the studio too, altho I've never taken the time to do an A/B comparison between the official release and the soundboard boot that's in circulation.
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Offline The Walrus

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I think ya'll are making this a bigger issue than it is. I like my live releases very simple: one night, one concert, no cherrypicking performances from various concerts and slapping them together. If I learn about overdubbing, then it just depends on how much overdubbing was done, if it's noticeable, blah blah blah. I'm not some crusader who hates all live albums, but this is one reason I just do not listen to them a lot, because it does not strike me as authentic. I want that show in all its flubby goodness because it's live.

I still love LATM. But the magic of James's performance is ruined after learning it was overdubbed, since as you said, we don't know what was and wasn't. So how am I to know what was performed that night and what wasn't? Maybe some of those awesome moments, he was able to do multiple takes. I have no idea. It doesn't sound overdubbed to me, so it's a good editing job regardless, but again, it loses some magic.
 
And no, I don't like that they picked vocal lines to replace parts where maybe Ray wasn't up to snuff. Again, I want the flubs. IT'S LIVE!

Okay, back to your scheduled programming. Didn't mean to derail and cause a fuss. At least it's still better than Rhapsody's first DVD, which would cut out in the middle of a freaking song and then go to another! :) :)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 02:15:22 PM by Kattoelox »
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Offline rumborak

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If we're on the topic of "what kind of live album would you love to see", I must honestly say that I would love it to NOT be a concert. Like, every live performance DVD of theirs has been an indoors concert recording. At some point it all starts looking the same.
While I'm not suggesting DT do exactly that, but for example Pink Floyd's "Live at Pompeii" or Sigur Ros' "Heima" would be a really nice change of pace. Hell, even them just hanging out in a small room, performing songs and a guy with a handheld camera walks around, would be really cool.
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Offline MirrorMask

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While I'm not suggesting DT do exactly that, but for example Pink Floyd's "Live at Pompeii" or Sigur Ros' "Heima" would be a really nice change of pace. Hell, even them just hanging out in a small room, performing songs and a guy with a handheld camera walks around, would be really cool.

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Offline cramx3

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If we're on the topic of "what kind of live album would you love to see", I must honestly say that I would love it to NOT be a concert. Like, every live performance DVD of theirs has been an indoors concert recording. At some point it all starts looking the same.
While I'm not suggesting DT do exactly that, but for example Pink Floyd's "Live at Pompeii" or Sigur Ros' "Heima" would be a really nice change of pace. Hell, even them just hanging out in a small room, performing songs and a guy with a handheld camera walks around, would be really cool.

Maybe DT live at the ancient theater in Plovdiv?   :lol  I don't know, option two of the small room sounds more unique and interesting at this point than some big production that everyone else does now.  Rancid did something similar, a low budget band, with their newest album although it's not actually live, but them visually performing the album in a garage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkeApEWU8Pw  I think DT could blow this out of the water with scenery more fitting (a garage fits the punk band) and with all the focus on each instrument at the right time, and even done actually live which I think DT could do well vs. Rancid.

Offline Lethean

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Wow, really? I hate when bands do stuff like that. It sucks all the magic and fun of it being 'live' right out of it when you know it's fully doctored like that. Guess I'll be giving that one a HARD pass. :(
Ummmm.....it still IS live - just from another performance. Better that than fixing it all in the studio after the fact, like has been done to so many "classic" live albums, including DT's Live at the Marquee! IIRC, this is something that Rush did on A Show of Hands, Different Stages, or both releases.

And just to be clear, I think it was used sparingly on FW's live album (as I believe was also the case on the Rush album(s)) - note what Ray says about it:
"The idea was that a live album is basically supposed to be live and there's no overdubs. The way we did it was we picked the different cities, different songs in different cities and basically, we would pull, if I did a bad part somewhere, we would pull that from another show and put that in there. It's edited together, it's all live, but some of it's from different shows. I'm not perfect. [Laughs] That was the cool idea that we would pull back and forth between different takes. It's sort of like when you record an album in the studio, you do the song ten times, then you pull the best part out of each and do it that way. I don't know if everyone does it that way, but we do it that way sometimes."

Hey Scotty.  There's an audio interview with Ray (the one done by fanboys) where it sounds like it was more than just that.  Maybe I should listen again just to make sure I understood correctly, but I believe he said that Jim listened to the individual tracks from each player, picked the best one, and put them together.  Not that it was just Ray's vocals.

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole thing, to be honest.  Unlike Kattelox, I don't need the whole show to be from one venue.  If song A is from Athens and song B is from London, fine by me, and it would be cool to know which song is from which city.  I don't care so much for the whole splicing approach described above though.  I'd rather it be the whole band performance, whichever city is the best as a whole.

Online SeRoX

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Again this? How come *this thing* ruined LATM exprience knowing that James recorded it on the studio? There are many shows on youtube better than LATM's James performance. Knowing that James put godly vocal performances in that era I don't feel like I'm decieved by this lve CD.
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Offline The Walrus

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Again this? How come *this thing* ruined LATM exprience knowing that James recorded it on the studio? There are many shows on youtube better than LATM's James performance. Knowing that James put godly vocal performances in that era I don't feel like I'm decieved by this lve CD.

It's almost like you didn't read my explanation. It's not about his talents, it's about the authenticity of that night's performance.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Hey Scotty.  There's an audio interview with Ray (the one done by fanboys) where it sounds like it was more than just that.  Maybe I should listen again just to make sure I understood correctly, but I believe he said that Jim listened to the individual tracks from each player, picked the best one, and put them together.  Not that it was just Ray's vocals.
I didn't mean to imply that it was just Ray's vocals that might receive those fixes, although typically any aging vocalist singing older material is likely to be where the most corrections are needed. But if in fact Jim actually took whole performances of each instrument from different nights and put them together, then I stand corrected. That would be a bit too much fixing, IMO, but if that's the way it is, so be it.

In my perfect world, live albums would be taken from just one performance (or multiple nights only if different songs are played) with minimal fixes. But even if that is not the case, it still won't stop me from enjoying the album, so long as it still sounds like a real gig. A perfect example of where I feel this is not the case is Rush's Exit Stage Left. Despite the tracklisting, the fadeouts between almost every song, the abundance of tweaking the guys did in the studio after the fact and the flat mix all take away from me being able to really enjoy that album.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline Architeuthis

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Wow, to the contrary.. Rush's Exit Stage Left is probably my favorite release of theirs of all time. Just a great listen the whole way through. The version of Passge to Bangkok blows away the studio version on 2112.. 
You can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast, you can make the most of the distance, first you need endurance first you've got to last....... NP

Offline The Presence of Frenemies

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Again this? How come *this thing* ruined LATM exprience knowing that James recorded it on the studio? There are many shows on youtube better than LATM's James performance. Knowing that James put godly vocal performances in that era I don't feel like I'm decieved by this lve CD.

It's almost like you didn't read my explanation. It's not about his talents, it's about the authenticity of that night's performance.

Totally fair that you feel that way, of course. I do think it does change the equation a bit, though, when the performances are edited in a way that makes them obviously better than what the band ever sounded like vs. when one member (especially the singer, given the nature of singing) has an off night and you correct it to what was actually more typical for the live experience on the tour. LATM may not contain the vocals of the actual Marquee show, but it's a pretty accurate document of what 1993 Dream Theater shows were like (at least judging from bootlegs of the I&W tour).

I really feel like the best way out of the issues we're discussing with the Budokan show is the Metallica model. Set up a few cameras every show, record them all and put them out on YouTube. That way, anytime you have a good night, it's there. For instance, I saw DT's first show after Thanksgiving last year, and on five' days rest, James was very good. But that doesn't become the document of the tour, the Budokan show does, where he obviously struggled more.

The all-in-for-one-show thing is such a risk when you have a singer (or anyone else) susceptible to bad nights. I remember James commented on this regarding the original LaB DVD, where he said it was one of the worst nights he had on the ToT tour and the band really struggled with the decision whether or not to re-record or edit the vocals. And don't get me started on how the Universal City show from '07 would've made for a way better DVD than Chaos in Motion if it was professionally recorded.
Yeah, I have no idea what the cakeless person in that analogy is meant to be eating. If he's got some sort of cake substitute, it should really have been worked into the narrative at some point. As it stands, the options are:

  • Hoard a cake just to stare blankly into its doughy edifice.
  • Make futile chewing motions with your mouth while starving to death.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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I really feel like the best way out of the issues we're discussing with the Budokan show is the Metallica model. Set up a few cameras every show, record them all and put them out on YouTube. That way, anytime you have a good night, it's there.
That would be the best model, by far. Only problem is, DT doesn't have the money Metallica does. Doing something like what you're talk about would be cost prohibitive for them ever night of a tour, even if on a smaller scale.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline SystematicThought

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I've always liked Umphrey's McGee's model and a lot of jam bands. They record the audio every night and are available for purchase. No clue why more bands don't do that. Can it be really that expensive to do? $10 for MP3 $12.95 for Lossless, $20 for Lossless and $20 for a CD copy
God have mercy on a man
Who doubts what he's sure of.
-Bruce Springsteen