Do you put the shopping carts back in the corral?

[TAC]

But the stores have people assigned to clear the lot.

Tim how many times has the lot been mismanaged? 

Not by me! 

[cramx3]

Nick, how was it a "moral decision I was in the wrong on"? You said you got enough meat for all your guests. Are you considering it morally wrong that you possibly wasted food?

Exactly, would have been the difference between 2 days of leftovers or 3.

Do you really apply a personal moral code to such minutiae in life?

Regardless if he does or not, I was going to say, I will bet most people don't think of returning a cart as a moral situation because most don't think twice about it.  They either leave it or return it and don't think much more of it, their actions, the consequences of such a small thing, and move on with life.  Therefore, I wouldn't really say someone who is doing it, is acting immoral or not.

[King Postwhore]

 Tim I know you know I worked in the grocery field for 7 years. It drives me insane to see simple things like eggs put with cans, carriages not taking care of. But that happens all the time.

[Cool Chris]

Nick, how was it a "moral decision I was in the wrong on"? You said you got enough meat for all your guests. Are you considering it morally wrong that you possibly wasted food?

Exactly, would have been the difference between 2 days of leftovers or 3.

Do you really apply a personal moral code to such minutiae in life?

Apply in what way? I'm not giving myself lashes or anything, but I accept that I made a poor choice as opposed to denying there was good or bad in the choice.

Apply in the way that it even occurred to you. How many times a day do we make such inconsequential decisions and not even have it register? And I doubt 99 out of a 100 would even qualify it as a "bad choice."

[Nick]

Nick, how was it a "moral decision I was in the wrong on"? You said you got enough meat for all your guests. Are you considering it morally wrong that you possibly wasted food?

Exactly, would have been the difference between 2 days of leftovers or 3.

Do you really apply a personal moral code to such minutiae in life?

Apply in what way? I'm not giving myself lashes or anything, but I accept that I made a poor choice as opposed to denying there was good or bad in the choice.

Apply in the way that it even occurred to you. How many times a day do we make such inconsequential decisions and not even have it register? And I doubt 99 out of a 100 would even qualify it as a "bad choice."

I get what you're saying, but whether conscious or not the choice is there, as are the consequences. A bunch of tiny mistakes can amount to something when taken as a whole. True, one cart left in a poor spot likely isn't going to cause any damage. But some are, and taken on the whole for a year I'm guessing stray carts end up costing people millions of dollars. Keep in mind 1,000,000 is only 4,000 $250 incidents. And $250 is being generous on what a significant ding with paint removal can actually end up costing.

And I think, given that less than 100 people have probably participated here, and that several have already basically said it's a bad choice, you're 99 out of 100 is likely way off. Though the sample size is small, of course.

[Cool Chris]

Nick, I am sorry we are sending mixed messages. I was hung up on your turkey story 

[Nick]

Nick, I am sorry we are sending mixed messages. I was hung up on your turkey story 

No problem, when arguments get heated it's easy to run afowl.

[Cool Chris]

That... was not necessary.

[Orbert]

People have brought up the "M" word: morality.

To me, it's pretty simple.  If what you're doing doesn't hurt anyone, it's fine.  If someone is hurt by your actions, it is wrong.  Obviously there's lots of grey area, and definitions can slide, but that's the basic idea.  "Hurt" can mean "cost someone money" or "inconvenienced someone".  In my first example, where carts were left in a perfectly good parking space, rendering it unusable, that inconveniences other people, who then have to park further away.  It's not a huge inconvenience, and most people could probably use the exercise, but that's not the point.  I would argue that leaving your carts in a space like that is objectively wrong because it inconveniences others.  If you do that, on purpose, you're an asshole.

Carts left out in the middle of the lot someplace where they might roll and damage cars is a grey area.  They might cause an issue, but have not actually done so.  If they're not hurting anything, no problem, right?  It's not a problem until one of them cuts loose and actually does ding someone's car, and one could argue that creating the situation where it might happen is therefore a bad choice.  But I have no rule against people making bad choices as long as no one's hurt.  But the one that nearly hit me and made me slam on my brakes was, until that moment, "innocent".  Then it inconvenienced me, making it (and the person who left it) "guilty" in my eyes.

Also, if there are so many stray carts in the lot that I have to weave in and out of them to get to a spot, now I'm being inconvenienced, and that's a problem.  TAC would say that that's the store's responsibility, and he's absolutely right.  The problem is that people know damned well that the store cannot possibly get to every stray cart as soon as it is abandoned.  They are therefore knowingly creating a hazard.  Is knowingly creating a situation in which people could be hurt or inconvenienced wrong, or is it only wrong if people actually are hurt or inconvenienced?  That's the grey area.  If it's up to me, I avoid such situations.  Leaving that pan of lasagna hanging over the edge of the counter isn't hurting anyone either, but if someone bumps it and the whole thing hits the floor, I don't blame the person who bumped it, I blame the idiot who left it where it was a potential hazard.

Hmmm... I think I just cleared up some of the grey area, for me anyway.  Don't cause problems for other people, and don't even cause potential problems for other people?  For some, that's going too far, because the act of avoiding every situation will itself inconvenience the person making the choice.  "Why should I always have to ______ just because somebody might _______?"  I don't know, common courtesy maybe?

[TAC]

Orbert, I'm completely with you on your post. I agree with pretty much all of it. I just never linked returning my shopping cart to common courtesy.

And just so I'm clear, when I say it's the store's responsibility, I do not mean it in a sense of (cue ignoramus voice) "It's not MY responsibility. Fuck 'em."

It's just that when I grew up, after loading your car, you simply left the carriage near where you parked and some kid would come by soon enough to grab it. Like I said, I'm pretty conscious of me being rude but I just never would've equated not returning my cart as an act of rudeness.

[King Postwhore]

What worked before isn't always the way it should be now.  Tim you as a manager should know that to get better is to evolve.  In life, at work, as a human being.

[TAC]

  In life, at work, as a human being.

Oh, I'm working on it.

[TAC]

  Tim you as a manager should know that to get better is to evolve.   

As a manager, if I can get my customers to guilt each other into stocking the shelves too, I'll be very happy.

[Cool Chris]

Good post Orbert. I didn't think about carts being littered all over the parking lot. Yes, that is annoying and inconsiderate, but I won't qualify someone  who does that as an asshole. I honestly rarely see that, as when I think of a stray cart I think of it being on and around the sidewalks and entryways of my store. 

It's just that when I grew up, after loading your car, you simply left the carriage near where you parked and some kid would come by soon enough to grab it.

By "car" did you mean "Horse and Buggy?"

[The Walrus]

Now I was told that calling people an asshole for this was wrong...

Great post Orbert.

[Stadler]

Nick, how was it a "moral decision I was in the wrong on"? You said you got enough meat for all your guests. Are you considering it morally wrong that you possibly wasted food?

Exactly, would have been the difference between 2 days of leftovers or 3.

Do you really apply a personal moral code to such minutiae in life?

Regardless if he does or not, I was going to say, I will bet most people don't think of returning a cart as a moral situation because most don't think twice about it.  They either leave it or return it and don't think much more of it, their actions, the consequences of such a small thing, and move on with life.  Therefore, I wouldn't really say someone who is doing it, is acting immoral or not.

This is also to Nick and Chris, because it applies to their conversation as well.    This is kind of my point; it's mislabeling it to think of it as just a "cart thing".  It's a concept called "Framing".   if you look at it like "take cart/leave cart" it's really hard to get to the "moral question" thing.   But if you look at your actions - any of them, all of them - as "affecting other people", you DO have a moral choice to impact others or not.   And if you don't think that's a moral choice, reverse it.  Think of all the ways that OTHERS can impact you if they so chose.  We have laws for some things - I can't kill you if you're slow in the McDonald's line; I can't park my car in your front lawn without your permission because it's a shorter walk to wherever I'm going - but the law isn't about "morals"; it's the lowest common denominator.     

And it's not as if you have to spend every minute of every day wondering and worrying about how you affect others; much of this is a "one time decision" and you spend the rest of your days implementing it.    But in my view, it IS a moral question.   

Here's another example:  because of circumstances, I have occasion to drive my son's and daughters' cars.   If the gas tank is less than say, 2/3, I fill it.   I just do.  I'm blessed to have the means to do so, and so I do.   Is filling gas "moral"?  Of course not.   But it is part of a bigger picture; it's one less thing that is in their life, better or worse.  MORALLY, I feel an obligation to leave other people's lives better - lighter, lesser, richer, happier, easier - than it was before.   And think about it:  you ALL know people that are the opposite:  every interaction results in SOME burden for you. 

This isn't that far from Orbert's post, I don't think, except I err on the side of "help" rather than "neutral".

[TAC]

Here's another example:  because of circumstances, I have occasion to drive my son's and daughters' cars.   If the gas tank is less than say, 2/3, I fill it.   

I do the same when I have my wife's car.

[King Postwhore]

  Tim you as a manager should know that to get better is to evolve.   

As a manager, if I can get my customers to guilt each other into stocking the shelves too, I'll be very happy.

Listen, I agree with you but a high % of these store are failing at this and I've had multiple damages and scratches because of this.

[Orbert]

Now I was told that calling people an asshole for this was wrong...

Great post Orbert.

Thanks.

And it's funny, I thought about using the word "asshole" specifically because of the chastising you got for using it.  It's a tough call, but if I may, I think I might have built a better case up to it than you did.  I tried to go in objective steps how one person's actions directly, negatively affected others, and I think most people would agree that if you do that on purpose, you're an asshole.  I've done it myself.  We all have; we've all earned the label at one time or another.

I think the difference is that your use of the "asshole" label came across more like these are people who just don't agree with you.  If you build a case to it, you've earned the right to slap the label on someone.  But just calling anyone who disagrees with you an asshole is name-calling.  Not that that's exactly what happened in your case, but that appears to be the axiom being invoked here.  *shrug*

[The Walrus]

Can't disagree with any of that, and I think you're right, you absolutely laid out a better case than I did. I was shooting from the hip, you actually thought before posting. 

[The Walrus]

Went to the grocery store last night. Saw 2 rogue carts in the lot. One was planted against the front bumper of a car. Get this: the corral was literally 2 spots away, dead ahead and one spot to the right of said car.

This war isn't over. 

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Went to the grocery store last night. Saw 2 rogue carts in the lot. One was planted against the front bumper of a car. Get this: the corral was literally 2 spots away, dead ahead and one spot to the right of said car.

This war isn't over. 

The laziness and lack of respect for other people's property is astonishing.

[DT2003]

I always put the cart back in the corral whenever I shop. More times than not I am just picking up a few things so I'll just grab a basket and go to self checkout. When I do that I will always return the basket to the holders by the store entrance.

Years back I was coming out of BJs and I'm walking up to my car (which I had just purchased less than a month earlier) and there was a cart up against my car. BJs carts are slightly bigger than regular grocery store carts and when I got up to my car and pulled the cart out I had a deep dent going up and down on my door at leaat 18 inches long. From the damage there was no way that someone just pushed the cart into my car so I can only assume it was pushed into my car by another car. The dent was so bad that when I got it fixed the place I went to didn't believe that it was caused by a shopping cart. That is one of the main reasons why I will always return my cart. I also just think it's lazy not to return them.

[bosk1]

By the way, I was at our local Costco last night after work to pick up a couple of items.  As I pulled into my parking spot, there were carts neatly propped in "the 4 corners" of each spot (i.e., so they were out of the way and wouldn't roll into other cars), as there usually are.  When I came out, I pulled my cart over to my car and unloaded.  Because "the 4 corners" by my spot were already occupied, I started walking my cart to the corral, which was actually a bit of a ways off from the store.  On the way there, the kindly Costco employee whose job it was to retrieve carts yelled out to me from a couple of rows over and asked me what I was doing, and why I would make his job harder by taking my cart out to the corral way out in BFE instead of leaving it at the 4 corners like a "normal" person.  So, take that, shopping cart corral Nazis!   

[King Postwhore]

That kid needs to shut his pie hole and get carts in every corral.

[The Walrus]

By the way, I was at our local Costco last night after work to pick up a couple of items.  As I pulled into my parking spot, there were carts neatly propped in "the 4 corners" of each spot (i.e., so they were out of the way and wouldn't roll into other cars), as there usually are.  When I came out, I pulled my cart over to my car and unloaded.  Because "the 4 corners" by my spot were already occupied, I started walking my cart to the corral, which was actually a bit of a ways off from the store.  On the way there, the kindly Costco employee whose job it was to retrieve carts yelled out to me from a couple of rows over and asked me what I was doing, and why I would make his job harder by taking my cart out to the corral way out in BFE instead of leaving it at the 4 corners like a "normal" person.  So, take that, shopping cart corral Nazis!   

The corrals are already constructed, that's what they're for! If it's making his job harder he's not doing his job correctly/people need to put them back in the corrals in the first place!

[Cool Chris]

I don't understand these "4 corners." And who the heck goes to Costco for "a couple of items?"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyNh8BNEXrs (not sure who Bryan is...)

[Phoenix87x]

Yeah, I don't get the 4 corners either. My brain doesn't function without visuals.

[El Barto]

Morality has nothing to do with this.

Out of curiosity, don't you find it weird you need to write that sentence? Unless the choice comes down to wanting beef or chicken in your stir fry morality plays a part in just about everything.

My mom is a partial vegetarian, who will eat fish or chicken but no mammals because she considers their treatment inhumane. Nickfail. 

[bosk1]

If it's making his job harder he's not doing his job correctly/people need to put them back in the corrals in the first place!

I have asked this before, but have never gotten an answer:  Why do you keep saying "back?"  There is no "back" since they don't start there in the first place. 

Anyhow, yeah, I just come back to, if you think carts MUST be put into corrals every time, you just don't know what the corrals are for and need to mind your own business.

Yeah, I don't get the 4 corners either. My brain doesn't function without visuals.

You have a row of parking spaces facing one direction.  As you pull into a space, there is another row facing you from directly across.  So the lines look something like:

HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Every space (except the end ones) has a corner that is common to the four adjacent parking spaces--hence, "four corners."  As in:  the place where most civilized people leave their shopping carts after loading their cars.

[King Postwhore]

Civilized people do not leave carts in parking spaces.

[jingle.boy]

What you're saying is just leaving your cart where 'x-marks-the-spot'? ie, the intersecting x of four parking spaces?  Like this?



If so, doesn't that impede on everyone's ability to use the parking space what it's use for - PARKING VEHICLES!?!?

To your first point Bosk, what ARE the corrals used for?  Enlighten me please.

[Podaar]

[Anguyen92]

That's a very creative outlet to get back at someone if they pissed you off.

[bosk1]

What you're saying is just leaving your cart where 'x-marks-the-spot'? ie, the intersecting x of four parking spaces?  Like this?

Can't see the pic, but based on the way you are describing it, yes.

If so, doesn't that impede on everyone's ability to use the parking space what it's use for - PARKING VEHICLES!?!?

Um...no.  At least, not unless you park on the X rather than in between the lines like a normal person.    As I said a few posts above, when I went to Costco the other day, both of the corners on my parking space had carts (one had two carts, in fact).  I was able to park there without any problem.  So, no, I don't see how that follows.

To your first point Bosk, what ARE the corrals used for?  Enlighten me please.

  I thought we already established that they are for shopping carts.