Author Topic: Harvey Weinstein  (Read 26067 times)

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Online El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #910 on: December 03, 2018, 02:22:39 PM »
I hadn't heard this news, and quickly read his statement.  This kind of shit is brutal.  It's these senseless accusations that are going to make the human race extinct - men are going to be fearful of any/every interaction with a person of the opposite sex.  I think back to a work colleague (my primary contact at my customer) who is female and a few years younger than I.  After knowing her for four months, we were getting together for dinner with some out-of-town colleagues.  When we met up at the restaurant, we said hi and started a hand-shake to which I said 'we're on a hugging basis now, aren't we?'.  We did, and have ever since.

Am I now to question whether we actually are, and I'm creeping her out every time?  Part of me will now wonder this every time we have a 'hi-how-are-you hug'.

Fuck I fear for humanity.
The irony is that this is the last thing most women would want. I don't want to dump this on Cosmos Girl, or single her out, but since she's the current example she's drafted. If she had been interested in NDT would she have been bothered by anything he did? She's not so she was. Alrighty then. But how happy will she be when a guy that she actually is into is afraid to make any sort of move? Won't she then decide he's a pussy and move on?
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #911 on: December 04, 2018, 05:48:05 AM »
I hadn't heard this news, and quickly read his statement.  This kind of shit is brutal.  It's these senseless accusations that are going to make the human race extinct - men are going to be fearful of any/every interaction with a person of the opposite sex.  I think back to a work colleague (my primary contact at my customer) who is female and a few years younger than I.  After knowing her for four months, we were getting together for dinner with some out-of-town colleagues.  When we met up at the restaurant, we said hi and started a hand-shake to which I said 'we're on a hugging basis now, aren't we?'.  We did, and have ever since.

Am I now to question whether we actually are, and I'm creeping her out every time?  Part of me will now wonder this every time we have a 'hi-how-are-you hug'.

Fuck I fear for humanity.

Its already happening

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-03/walking-eggshells-women-say-metoo-hurting-their-prospects-wall-street-career

"Wall Street executives have become so terrified of being falsely accused of sexual misconduct - or of having their words and intentions "misinterpreted" - that they're afraid to walk within 12 paces of a junior female employee without a phalanx of HR reps present to oversee the encounter"


and then there's what Ex-Superman (henry cavill) mentioned:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/13/entertainment/henry-cavill-me-too-apology/index.html

"Stuff has to change, absolutely, in terms of men's behavior," he also added: "It's important to also retain the good things, which were a quality of the past, and get rid of the bad things."

"There's something wonderful about a man chasing a woman," he said. "There's a traditional approach to that, which is nice. I think a woman should be wooed and chased, but maybe I'm old-fashioned for thinking that."

"It's very difficult to do that if there are certain rules in place," Cavill said.

"Because then it's like: 'Well, I don't want to go up and talk to her, because I'm going to be called a rapist or something'," he said. "So you're like, 'Forget it, I'm going to call an ex-girlfriend instead, and then just go back to a relationship, which never really worked'. But it's way safer than casting myself into the fires of hell, because I'm someone in the public eye, and if I go and flirt with someone, then who knows what's going to happen?"


      Cavil then went on to apologize after making these comments after backlash according to the article


And apparently Birth rates are dropping as well

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/17/611898421/u-s-births-falls-to-30-year-low-sending-fertility-rate-to-a-record-low
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 06:29:20 AM by Phoenix87x »
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Online cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #912 on: December 04, 2018, 07:45:04 AM »
Some of that is overblown, but there is some truth to it.  Like you can still talk to a random girl without being a total creep.  However, if something like a legit wooing turns to rejection and that rejection ruins your career, then we have an issue. 

If you take out the potential drugging scenario (which is the worst accusation and from reading his side, seems maybe the least believable based on what I just read) the other accusations when reading his explanation don't really seem like anything illegal or even far over the top.  Is it too much? For some women, yes and that's probably enough to know it is wrong, but I don't think he was a predator.  I wouldn't call those accusations sexual abuse.  I don't think ruining his career over that is good for society either.  Now if the drugging turns out to be true, then it's a whole different story.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #913 on: December 04, 2018, 07:55:54 AM »
If NDT is telling the truth, and that's the new line of demarcation, I have SO crossed that line in the past.  Meaning, I certainly have ham-fistedly hit on women.  I think I'm hilarious and smooth as silk, but as el Barto said, so much of this seems to be outcome dependent.   

I remember,  early on, while dating my now wife, I sent a link to Noel Gallagher's "If I Had A Gun".  It was somewhat early in the relationship - not that early, but early - and since she had gone through an absolutely brutal divorce, I thought the second verse was a really nice thing to say:

Give you back a dream
Show you now what might have been
For the tears you cried will fade away
I'll be by your side
When they come and say goodbye
We will live to fight another day

Instead, she didn't get past the first line: "If I had a gun, I'd shoot a hole into the sun, and love would burn this city down for you."

She showed it to her daughter, who said "CREEPY!".  I showed it to my daughter who said "Dad, please don't ever send a link to any music of any kind ever without clearing it with me in writing first."  We laugh about it today, but what if she wasn't into me?  Given the gun debates and the events like Las Vegas, I've just created a written record of pledged violence to a woman that - perhaps - doesn't want my advances.   

I just have a really hard time with the fact that we're reducing what is a bi-partisan encounter to a one-point-of-view, post facto analysis. 

(As for Neil, I'd really like to know one fact:  did his wife know about the wine and cheese invite?  That goes a long way towards intent.)

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #914 on: December 04, 2018, 08:05:57 AM »
It shouldn't be that difficult to behave like it shouldn't have been difficult before.

Take black people, for example. They're no longer slaves and they have the right to vote. How should I treat black people? well, like any other people I guess? can I talk to them normally? yes. Can I force them down my bus? d'uh, no. It shouldn't be rocket science.

At the same way, it shouldn't take a "Me too" movement to understand that saying "nice hair" to a girl is fine, and "I wish you were a door so that I could slam you all day long" is not. Then of course, single case by single case, you can find all kind of situations and bad people who will take advantage and try to ruin people for their own gain, but on the broader numbers, things go on as they've always went on before.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #915 on: December 04, 2018, 08:21:17 AM »
If what NDT is what's considered sexual assault these days, you might as well call me a rapist.

Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #916 on: December 04, 2018, 08:31:46 AM »
Quick rule of thumb that has always served me well is asking myself if I - as a cis woman - would touch another woman or invade her space or say something like <insert stupid thing> BEFORE I do so with a man.  Obviously this is in an acquaintance situation.  If I've already established a certain level of intimacy with someone I've been dating then flirting makes complete sense.  In other words, I treat people the way I would hope to be treated in turn.  With respect for their person and personal space.  "Can I give you a hug?" is not a difficult thing to ask before doing so.  "Can I look touch that tattoo?" doesn't seem that horrible to ask.  I get it, things are changing and people hate change.  The pendulum is going to swing a bit before we find a comfortable midpoint.  I don't think NDT did anything real wrong if his version of events are as he says.  But there is never any harm in being polite in social situations, especially if there is a power dynamic involved.

Online El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #917 on: December 04, 2018, 08:44:08 AM »
What about women who prefer more assertive men? Are they SOL?
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #918 on: December 04, 2018, 08:47:18 AM »
I like assertive men.  I'm not sure I understand.  An assertive man (to me) doesn't mean he still can't check in with me to ensure I am comfortable with what he's doing.  It literally takes a second to ask, "Is this ok?"

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #919 on: December 04, 2018, 08:52:24 AM »
I like assertive men.  I'm not sure I understand.  An assertive man (to me) doesn't mean he still can't check in with me to ensure I am comfortable with what he's doing.  It literally takes a second to ask, "Is this ok?"

That's actually the exact opposite of being assertive.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #920 on: December 04, 2018, 08:55:43 AM »
I like assertive men.  I'm not sure I understand.  An assertive man (to me) doesn't mean he still can't check in with me to ensure I am comfortable with what he's doing.  It literally takes a second to ask, "Is this ok?"

Overall I agree with you.

I remember when I was like.....20? I dunno. Something like that. I was with a girl and asked if I could kiss her. We weren't really on a date and I wasn't sure if she was into me like that. She basically said that I could have kissed if I hadn't asked, but asking ruined it for her.

Granted I feel like I really dodged a bullet with her in general (she was a good kisser though) but it makes it complicated.

However, as I write this, I realize that I did end up kissing her anyway. I didn't miss out on anything. So asking doesn't mean I'm missing out on the girl of my dreams or anything.


Nevermind, carry on.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #921 on: December 04, 2018, 08:58:24 AM »
So if you are a woman who enjoys assertive men then in social situations while you are an acquaintance you want guys to just jump on you?  Um...I don't pretend to talk for all women so I'm not going to suggest every woman feels the way that I do here, but I know a LOT of women who like assertive men.  Not one of them would want an acquaintance to be aggressive right out of the gate.  Even people into S&M will tell you there are ground rules to be made.


I'm merely trying to say what I use as a rule of thumb.  YMMV

Online El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #922 on: December 04, 2018, 09:03:59 AM »
So if you are a woman who enjoys assertive men then in social situations while you are an acquaintance you want guys to just jump on you?  Um...I don't pretend to talk for all women so I'm not going to suggest every woman feels the way that I do here, but I know a LOT of women who like assertive men.  Not one of them would want an acquaintance to be aggressive right out of the gate.  Even people into S&M will tell you there are ground rules to be made.


I'm merely trying to say what I use as a rule of thumb.  YMMV
Well, I'm even less qualified to speak for all women than you are, but I believe the point is that many would like for guys to accurately read the signs. Say, understanding when it's the right time to move in for a kiss, without asking permission. The problem is that if you read the signs incorrectly you're at best a creep and at worst a predator.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #923 on: December 04, 2018, 09:14:34 AM »
So if you are a woman who enjoys assertive men then in social situations while you are an acquaintance you want guys to just jump on you?  Um...I don't pretend to talk for all women so I'm not going to suggest every woman feels the way that I do here, but I know a LOT of women who like assertive men.  Not one of them would want an acquaintance to be aggressive right out of the gate.  Even people into S&M will tell you there are ground rules to be made.


I'm merely trying to say what I use as a rule of thumb.  YMMV
Well, I'm even less qualified to speak for all women than you are, but I believe the point is that many would like for guys to accurately read the signs. Say, understanding when it's the right time to move in for a kiss, without asking permission. The problem is that if you read the signs incorrectly you're at best a creep and at worst a predator.

Many people do want their potential sexual partners to just "read the signs" and act.  We can debate the merits of that, sure.  But with the pendulum swinging perhaps all people need to adjust a bit and I would guess that may include partners adapting to the likelihood of being asked, "Is this ok?" in the early days of a relationship.  Again, I'm just saying what has worked for me.  If someone got turned off by my asking for a kiss, like in Adami's case, then so be it.  I can only be in charge of my own actions.  If someone doesn't care for that then maybe they aren't the person for me long term anyway.

And yes I get it.  When you're 20 and get shot down, it hurts.  I'm still going to follow my own instincts to be respectful.  And this is what I'm teaching my kids.  I think "romance" and "sex" are going to survive MeToo.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #924 on: December 04, 2018, 09:22:33 AM »
There's been times where reading the signs from a female were difficult, and I've asked before proceeding because it wasn't made obvious.  I don't think it's ever ruined a moment, other than usually the girl feeling extra comfortable with me after asking.  And there's been times I thought she wanted more and started touching further and I was quickly pushed away and I didn't return.  I don't think there's anything difficult about being respectful of a woman even if she wants you to make the moves or be more aggressive.  You can still do all that without creeping someone out or without putting yourself in a bad situation.  None of these situations started with me touching a female.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #925 on: December 04, 2018, 02:52:21 PM »
In other words, I treat people the way I would hope to be treated in turn. 

As someone who is not easily offended, who is prone to laughing even the most awkward circumstances off, and who is almost obsessive about being flexible and collaborative, I can tell you that's not a standard that would work in what I'm seeing as today's society.   If that's the standard, then someone owes Neil DeGrasse Tyson damages for pain and suffering.   


Look, I don't mean to mock. I totally know what you (and MirrorMask) are saying, and that may work 95% of the time, but it's not the "95% of the time" we're worried about.   It's not even the 99% of the time.  Anything less than 100% is not sufficient, at least not for me, because I don't want to take the chance of being on the front page of the paper for even one incident like that, and not least because if I'm in a position to be intimate with them, then my nature is not to leave people uncomfortable.  That would deeply upset me if someone - man or woman - felt I abused them sexually or otherwise, especially when the intent is the opposite.   

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #926 on: December 04, 2018, 02:53:53 PM »
So if you are a woman who enjoys assertive men then in social situations while you are an acquaintance you want guys to just jump on you?  Um...I don't pretend to talk for all women so I'm not going to suggest every woman feels the way that I do here, but I know a LOT of women who like assertive men.  Not one of them would want an acquaintance to be aggressive right out of the gate.  Even people into S&M will tell you there are ground rules to be made.


I'm merely trying to say what I use as a rule of thumb.  YMMV

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #927 on: December 04, 2018, 03:08:20 PM »
There's been times where reading the signs from a female were difficult, and I've asked before proceeding because it wasn't made obvious.  I don't think it's ever ruined a moment, other than usually the girl feeling extra comfortable with me after asking.  And there's been times I thought she wanted more and started touching further and I was quickly pushed away and I didn't return.  I don't think there's anything difficult about being respectful of a woman even if she wants you to make the moves or be more aggressive.  You can still do all that without creeping someone out or without putting yourself in a bad situation.  None of these situations started with me touching a female.
You're not Neal DeGrasse Tyson. The consequences are very different.

On top of that, you're not Neal DeGrasse Tyson. I think we can infer from the description that he's not adept at reading signals. And for that he's now a part of a movement.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #928 on: December 04, 2018, 03:28:31 PM »
There's been times where reading the signs from a female were difficult, and I've asked before proceeding because it wasn't made obvious.  I don't think it's ever ruined a moment, other than usually the girl feeling extra comfortable with me after asking.  And there's been times I thought she wanted more and started touching further and I was quickly pushed away and I didn't return.  I don't think there's anything difficult about being respectful of a woman even if she wants you to make the moves or be more aggressive.  You can still do all that without creeping someone out or without putting yourself in a bad situation.  None of these situations started with me touching a female.
You're not Neal DeGrasse Tyson. The consequences are very different.

On top of that, you're not Neal DeGrasse Tyson. I think we can infer from the description that he's not adept at reading signals. And for that he's now a part of a movement.

Sure being in a position of power or fame changes things, thats true and something I often overlook.  But just because he's not adept to reading signals doesn't mean he should result in touching someone inapropriately (I'm not saying he did, just generalizing) because I think that people should still have control over their own actions.  If we are comparing to NDT, I'm not sure what to say because I think he isn't deserving of this based on the accusations I've read, but it doesn't mean men in general can just skate by because they can't read social queues and act inappropriately in the process.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #929 on: December 05, 2018, 08:33:34 AM »
There's been times where reading the signs from a female were difficult, and I've asked before proceeding because it wasn't made obvious.  I don't think it's ever ruined a moment, other than usually the girl feeling extra comfortable with me after asking.  And there's been times I thought she wanted more and started touching further and I was quickly pushed away and I didn't return.  I don't think there's anything difficult about being respectful of a woman even if she wants you to make the moves or be more aggressive.  You can still do all that without creeping someone out or without putting yourself in a bad situation.  None of these situations started with me touching a female.
You're not Neal DeGrasse Tyson. The consequences are very different.

On top of that, you're not Neal DeGrasse Tyson. I think we can infer from the description that he's not adept at reading signals. And for that he's now a part of a movement.

Doesn't that sort of make it worse, though?  Why should it matter?   Is it really more "offensive" to have NDT searching for Pluto on you (that's a euphemism, innit?) over, say, Cram?

Offline Chino

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #930 on: December 05, 2018, 09:34:44 AM »
I'd let Cram search for my Pluto.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #931 on: December 05, 2018, 10:55:00 AM »
I'd let Cram search for my Pluto.

But would you let him open your Pandoran box?
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #932 on: December 05, 2018, 11:02:46 AM »
I'd let Cram search for my Pluto.

only if your body signals lead me to the right direction  ;)

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #933 on: December 06, 2018, 12:09:49 PM »
Netflix implements rule that Bans Employees from Looking at Each Other for More Than Five Seconds

https://torontosun.com/entertainment/television/metoo-much-netflix-reportedly-tells-staff-maximum-eye-contact-length
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #934 on: December 06, 2018, 12:17:44 PM »
wut, I mean sure staring at someone for a long time is creepy, but like are these even enforcable?  The article seems like something from the onion.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #935 on: December 06, 2018, 12:22:43 PM »
Sounds like the classic case of panicking over something politically correct (well, it's not only PC to not harass women, it's absolutely right to not do that of course, it was just to give the idea), and overcompensating.

Also, why is there even need to ask for a phone number in this day and age??? just look her up on Facebook or Instagram, add her and write her a private message d'uh.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #936 on: December 06, 2018, 12:25:04 PM »
Sounds like the classic case of panicking over something politically correct (well, it's not only PC to not harass women, it's absolutely right to not do that of course, it was just to give the idea), and overcompensating.

Also, why is there even need to ask for a phone number in this day and age??? just look her up on Facebook or Instagram, add her and write her a private message d'uh.

Nah, just climb a tree across the street from her bedroom with a pair of binoculars - Marty McFly-style.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #937 on: December 06, 2018, 12:34:16 PM »
In related news, my school district just passed an edict:  no passing of any notes of any kind in gym class.

For fuck's sake, this reminds me of the long drive in the family car and leaning over and pointing at your  brother but not actually touching him, just putting your finger about a half an inch from his face just to piss him off...  These are the kind of rules that really bother me, not least of which because they are the kind of rule that would trip me up.  I don't leer or anything like that, but when I'm in airports and whatnot, having a drink before or between flights, I can zone out and across a space, it can certainly look like I'm staring.

(Though in all seriousness, this sort of thing smacks of the rule that isn't really intended to stop the behavior, but rather to create a cause of action in the event that a confluence of events makes another employee uncomfortable.)

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #938 on: December 06, 2018, 12:53:00 PM »
Haven't notes in class always been against the rules? That's the point of them.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #939 on: December 06, 2018, 01:01:52 PM »
Haven't notes in class always been against the rules? That's the point of them.

yup, like whats this rule and why is it limited to gym?  thats like the one class where you dont even have pen/paper.  Also, do kids even pass notes these days with phones?

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #940 on: December 06, 2018, 01:37:24 PM »
Sounds like the classic case of panicking over something politically correct (well, it's not only PC to not harass women, it's absolutely right to not do that of course, it was just to give the idea), and overcompensating.

Also, why is there even need to ask for a phone number in this day and age??? just look her up on Facebook or Instagram, add her and write her a private message d'uh.


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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #941 on: December 06, 2018, 01:41:48 PM »
Netflix implements rule that Bans Employees from Looking at Each Other for More Than Five Seconds

https://torontosun.com/entertainment/television/metoo-much-netflix-reportedly-tells-staff-maximum-eye-contact-length
I'm confused. It sounds to me like they're talking about actors on their shows. Does this apply to, say, people in their CSR department? In any case, do modern TV shows even have scenes that lasts five seconds? They seem to edit shows pretty fast now for the ADD American audience.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #942 on: December 06, 2018, 01:47:30 PM »
(Though in all seriousness, this sort of thing smacks of the rule that isn't really intended to stop the behavior, but rather to create a cause of action in the event that a confluence of events makes another employee uncomfortable.)
Yeah, my first thought was obvious CYA. Nobody really expects people to time how long they look at somebody. The reality is that all of the newly regulated behavior can be summed up with the Wil Wheaton rule. Unfortunately Don't be a dick is probably a little too vague when the lawyers get involved.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #943 on: December 06, 2018, 01:51:34 PM »
Unfortunately Don't be a dick is probably a little too vague when the lawyers get involved.

Judging from how many PM's I get every time a warning or ban is issued, I guess it's a little too vague for this forum too.
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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #944 on: December 06, 2018, 02:47:35 PM »
Unfortunately Don't be a dick is probably a little too vague when the lawyers get involved.

Judging from how many PM's I get every time a warning or ban is issued, I guess it's a little too vague for this forum too.

Well, you are a lawyer.   :eek
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