Author Topic: Harvey Weinstein  (Read 15527 times)

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Offline sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #735 on: January 15, 2018, 07:18:07 AM »
People are ripping him for not being able to pick up on the fact that she was uncomfortable.
Probably hard to pick that up when his penis is in her mouth (not forcibly).

Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #736 on: January 15, 2018, 10:26:19 AM »
Now if I was a celebrity, I feel like she could go to the press and put a nail in my coffin, especially if she could somehow bring up the texts. Despite the fact that she said things like "I want you to fuck my throat till it bleeds", I feel like she could still play the victim card and paint me in a terrible light.


Honestly, though? Even if she did say that, the dynamic has changed now so that it's not necessarily her ACTIONS, but her perception - now, in the 20/20 vision of her dashed hopes, dreams and future plans with you - of the moment.  "She just said that because it's what you wanted to hear, and she felt pressured and scared into saying that."


Offline axeman90210

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #738 on: January 28, 2018, 05:35:38 PM »
Almost stopped reading at "Women are enculturated to be uncomfortable most of the time. And to ignore their discomfort." but The Week has good articles go read it through to the end. Some salient points well presented, but I don't know about the leap from "Women have to wear uncomfortable high-heels..." to "We have to suck our date's dick even if we don't want to." Again, good points we as a society need to consider going forward, but at first glance I am not fully aboard her train of thought.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #739 on: January 28, 2018, 08:12:11 PM »
Almost stopped reading at "Women are enculturated to be uncomfortable most of the time. And to ignore their discomfort." but The Week has good articles go read it through to the end. Some salient points well presented, but I don't know about the leap from "Women have to wear uncomfortable high-heels..." to "We have to suck our date's dick even if we don't want to." Again, good points we as a society need to consider going forward, but at first glance I am not fully aboard her train of thought.

Why?
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #740 on: January 28, 2018, 08:28:19 PM »
I don't have a good answer honestly. That was my first impression after reading the article, subject to change after more thought. I am sorry if my answer is lacking.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #741 on: January 28, 2018, 08:29:17 PM »
I don't have a good answer honestly. That was my first impression after reading the article, subject to change after more thought. I am sorry if my answer is lacking.

It's all good. I was just wondering if it was based on anything or just a "doesn't feel right" kind of answer. In which case, a lot of the stuff people are talking about isn't gonna feel right to most men.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #742 on: January 28, 2018, 08:31:44 PM »
I thought the idea behind the article was admirable, but it seemed like they built the strawman that all men are rutting pigs who just expect all women to drop to their knees and pleasure them, while also suggesting that all women are these meek little creatures who quietly sit back in agony and pain because they are forced to satisfy the (cave)men.  The generalizations were a bit bothersome.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #743 on: January 28, 2018, 08:47:36 PM »
I was just wondering if it was based on anything or just a "doesn't feel right" kind of answer. In which case, a lot of the stuff people are talking about isn't gonna feel right to most men.

I am definitely conscious of that, and tried to not let sentiment guide my thinking.
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Offline sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #744 on: January 29, 2018, 07:13:57 AM »
Adami: As mental health professional, I have to imagine a prerequisite is the desire to understand why people do what they do, make the decisions they make, live as they live, etc. It's a major influence in my life and something I think about on an almost minute by minute basis. That being said, when you study the underlying reasons why people make certain decisions, and you feel you've at least begun to understand the nuances of those decisions, do certain reasons inherently make certain decisions justifiable? Is there ever a point where someone's actions are not subject to scrutiny simply because of a specific reason for the action? I know in the eyes of the law, especially when it comes to violence, there are exceptions based on the circumstances. I mean more in a person-by-person basis, and the ways people justify there decisions for themselves.

And the reason I ask is because of this narrative that "Women are just as capable as Men," right along side this idea that women are somehow incapable of defending themselves (even when not in physical danger) in the moment, perhaps "forced" by cultural expectations to say YES when they really mean NO, or perhaps "forced" to say YES so they can continue to get money, not pursuing any legal recourse, etc. Is there a point where the reason doesn't justify the decisions? I'm a HUMAN BEING, not just a Man, and I have the same gauge for determining what is considered RIGHT or WRONG in a given situation. If I choose to make a decision that compromised my integrity because of other weighted circumstances, that's surely my choice to make. But I DO NOT get to sell it as being anyone else's fault but my own (post-assault/harassment/looked at me funny). And then I find myself at odds with the idea that I'm somehow a sexist because I see women as human beings that are equally capable of making the RIGHT decision, regardless of how hard it might be. That's just the level I hold all people to...

Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #745 on: January 29, 2018, 10:18:19 AM »
Almost stopped reading at "Women are enculturated to be uncomfortable most of the time. And to ignore their discomfort." but The Week has good articles go read it through to the end. Some salient points well presented, but I don't know about the leap from "Women have to wear uncomfortable high-heels..." to "We have to suck our date's dick even if we don't want to." Again, good points we as a society need to consider going forward, but at first glance I am not fully aboard her train of thought.

I sort of lost interest for the same reasons KevShmev put forth.  It seemed like certain facts were marshaled to make a pre-conceived point, not "all the facts assembled and a reasonable conclusion drawn".   I know for me, I must've dated freaks and weirdos, because I've NEVER had a woman deliver oral sex she didn't want to on a date.  Not because I'm a man and oblivious to that, but because I can literally count on one hand the number of partners that did that.   I too have experienced pain during sex (no jokes, please), but did I say anything?  Hell no, because what kind of pansy wuss says "Ohh, my weiner hurt during sex!"??

I want to be sensitive here, and I will be to the extent I'm in that situation ever again, but I'm very much in synch with Sylvan here, in that there's a part of me that says at some point, blaming culture or sociology or "male-centric power continuums" is just an excuse.   Women are strong.  They have been in space, they have led nations, they have fought in combat, they have revolutionized medicine...  I think it does our women a disservice to think they aren't capable of acting in their own best interest or that they aren't capable of taking responsibility for their (sexual) bodies.

(And an aside:  I wonder how many of the people that say "YAY!" to that article are pro-choice? So women are capable of making SOME decisions but not others? Why is the answer different?)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 08:51:05 AM by Stadler »

Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #746 on: February 23, 2018, 08:30:18 AM »
Was just reading about Brendon Fraser's "me too" experience.  I won't post an article because they are easy found on-line (the GQ one is excellent) but a few things really stood out to me about what he said.

Quote
His left hand reaches around, grabs my ass cheek, and one of his fingers touches me in the taint. And he starts moving it around, Fraser told the magazine, recalling becoming overcome with panic and fear.
Eventually, he was able to remove Berk's hand. I felt ill. I felt like a little kid. I felt like there was a ball in my throat. I thought I was going to cry, he says. Fraser went home and told his then-wife, Afton Smith, what happened.

Berk, no longer president of the HFPA but still a member, told GQ Fraser's version of events "is a total fabrication.

Why didn't Fraser go public? I didn't want to contend with how that made me feel, or it becoming part of my narrative," he says now. But at the time, his reps did ask the HFPA for a written apology from Berk, and received one, though Berk says his apology admitted no wrongdoing.
People reports in his 2014 memoir With Signs and Wonders: My Journey from Darkest Africa to the Bright Lights of Hollywood, Berk recalled pinching Fraser's butt in jest.
The event left Fraser depressed and reclusive, he says, adding that he was rarely invited back to the Globes after 2003.

His response for why he didn't 'go public' is exactly consistent with what many women in Hollywood - and elsewhere - have been saying about their experiences.  And yet, it strikes me as how he's not being grilled about this the way that other victims have been.  The snide comments about putting the career ahead of everything else.  There really seems to be a bit of a double standard going on.  I don't think he should have to explain himself and I don't think anyone else should either.

"I didn't want to contend with the way it made me feel." 

Yes.  Exactly this.  So we pretend it didn't happen or that nothing really has changed.  We put it away in a drawer that we don't have to open often, if at all.  So we drink a little too much or use other unhealthy coping mechanisms to keep that drawer shut.  We get angry.  We don't have successful relationships.  Our careers can suffer.  Our confidence in ourselves comes into question again and again.  We can become 'depressed and reclusive.'  This can go on for years - decades.

It doesn't matter if the victim is male or female.  This is the heart of it for many people summed up in one sentence.  I found that powerful to read.

Quote
Am I still frightened? Absolutely. Do I feel like I need to say something? Absolutely. Have I wanted to many, many times? Absolutely. Have I stopped myself? Absolutely.

Brave.  People who speak up are brave.  More than you know.

Side note:  The groping event occurred just after he was in Graham Greene's 'The Quiet American'.  Great book and film.  I've always found Fraser's Alden Pyle to be one of his best performances.  If you haven't seen it, you should check it out.


Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #747 on: April 16, 2018, 09:36:39 AM »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #748 on: April 16, 2018, 10:20:52 AM »
Not sure if this is where this goes...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/whats-hot/a-17-year-old-says-she-was-told-to-put-band-aids-on-her-breasts-after-school-officials-claimed-she-was-distracting-male-students/ar-AAvLRw6?ocid=ientp

Not sure what to make of this, but was amused by the question about "man boobs".
If I knew who to direct them to, I'd pray three times a day to make bralessness the next social movement.

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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #749 on: April 16, 2018, 10:28:13 AM »
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #750 on: April 16, 2018, 10:50:13 AM »
What can I say, I love a nice jiggle.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #751 on: April 16, 2018, 12:33:55 PM »
Not sure if this is where this goes...

http://www.msn.com/en-us/lifestyle/whats-hot/a-17-year-old-says-she-was-told-to-put-band-aids-on-her-breasts-after-school-officials-claimed-she-was-distracting-male-students/ar-AAvLRw6?ocid=ientp

Not sure what to make of this, but was amused by the question about "man boobs".

Is there some parenting rule that boys cannot be taught how to avert their eyes?  Wouldn't that be an easier fix - not to mention a lesson that could have life-long impacts - than having girls put bandaids on their nipples?

I'm not even a guy and I'm a bit annoyed at the notion that it is so damned hard for a male to look away.  One might get the idea that boys aren't teachable or can't fathom the idea that there is a time and place for everything.  We can place expectations on boys to stay on task, to not be aggressive in the classroom, to not spit, not swear, not interrupt the teacher during the lesson but goodness, we can't suggest to them they can literally look in another direction?   :facepalm:


Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #752 on: April 16, 2018, 12:35:26 PM »
Yea, the idea that it's the girls responsibility to make sure men control themselves (within reason) is just annoying at this point.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #753 on: April 16, 2018, 12:54:16 PM »
Yea, the idea that it's the girls responsibility to make sure men control themselves (within reason) is just annoying at this point.

I don't disagree, but that runs afoul of a shit ton of positions on this very forum.  If it's up to us to control our reaction - and believe me, as a libertarian at heart, I'm all about the personal responsibility - then we shouldn't worry about Bill Cosby, since we all should control what goes in our mouths, and we shouldn't worry about racists making statements or protests, because we are all responsible for what information we retain or reject.

Look, I get it; it's a life lesson for both the boys - you are responsible for doing your job regardless of the environment - and the girls - you can "put it out there" but you can't always control what "out there" means - but at the end of the day, we are all responsible for our own little neck of the woods.  I don't think it's a one-way street on this. 

Bear in mind too, on the specific subject at hand, I don't believe the boys WERE acting up; it was a reaction of ONE teacher which escalated once it got to the Administration level (do NOT get me started on the Administrators in public schools.  Two words:  Altressa Cox-Blackwell.).

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #754 on: April 16, 2018, 01:00:07 PM »
I said within reason, I didn't make it black and white, that if the boys are supposed to control their own actions around a girl with no bra, then people should be able to not be bothered by racists. Those have nothing to do with each other unless you're making it an all or nothing thing.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #755 on: April 16, 2018, 01:22:29 PM »
Im probably going to catch hell for this, but Ive been wanting to make it for awhile.

Yes....we DO need to teach men to be more respectful. IT DOES need to be indoctrinated into our youth. We NEED to be taught to behave.

But make no mistake. MEN ARE BORN PREDATORS. To varying degrees (some more, some less) men always have a predatory nature.  Its partially the reason why men have a tendency to excuse bad behavior...especially if its in a grey area.

Women do it to. We all understand that people need to control their tempers, and that you are 100% responsible for any action you take.... but you know darn well that women do have a tendency to excuse bad behavior of other women if they are experiencing something hormonal that men will never understand.

Im not defending it. Remember I stated that we NEED to be taught. I am AGAINST the this is just who we are crowd. Im just saying that is an incredibly overwhelming and overpowering hormonal drive that is much more difficult to combat than women (and even a small handful of men) will never understand.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #756 on: April 17, 2018, 07:56:25 AM »
Is there some parenting rule that boys cannot be taught how to avert their eyes?  Wouldn't that be an easier fix - not to mention a lesson that could have life-long impacts - than having girls put bandaids on their nipples?

I'm not even a guy and I'm a bit annoyed at the notion that it is so damned hard for a male to look away.  One might get the idea that boys aren't teachable or can't fathom the idea that there is a time and place for everything.  We can place expectations on boys to stay on task, to not be aggressive in the classroom, to not spit, not swear, not interrupt the teacher during the lesson but goodness, we can't suggest to them they can literally look in another direction?   :facepalm:

So, as a male, I should no longer have the freedom to look at what is in front of me?  I don't buy this train of thought.  If something is out in the public, I have every right to look at it.  I don't think the girl should have to put on bandaids either, but you can't start policing what someone is looking. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #757 on: April 17, 2018, 08:48:28 AM »
Who said anything about policing?  I said TEACHING.  I have a son.  I teach him all sorts of things.  He goes to school.  He learns all sorts of things there.  He practices self control.  He's not perfect but we talk about time and place.  I don't treat him like he is too dumb to understand how to manage all sorts of things like peer pressure and responsibility for his own actions.

Why is the school punishing the girl in the story?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #758 on: April 17, 2018, 08:59:46 AM »
The band-aids idea was dumb.  But I have no problem with the school administration trying to be proactive and recognizing that it is a problem.  It's just one that is awkward to address, and is even more difficult in today's society where EVERYBODY is offended if anyone dares tell them to rein themselves in in ANY manner whatsoever. 

Personally, I think it should have been handled something along these lines:

-The administrator should still have gone to the girl, and just said something like, "Oh, honey, look--you may not get it, or you may feel like it isn't YOUR problem, but you need to go home and get a bra on.  It's just not appropriate not to.  And when you are grown up and out on your own, if you want to express yourself by not wearing one, that's your call.  But at school here, it's just not appropriate."

-And to any boys that were gawking, etc., they should also have been talked to along the lines of, "Hey, boys, you may not get why your behavior is inappropriate, but you need to rein yourselves in.  First off, you need to learn that the polite thing to do if you notice something like that is to not stare and gawk.  And secondly, it certainly isn't appropriate to make her feel any more self-conscious by making a big deal out of it/making fun."

Could have been a learning opportunity all around.  Instead, the school has to waste what I am assuming are already strapped time and resources responding to what is ultimately a tempest in a teapot.  I certainly don't think they did anything "wrong."  But it could have been handled so much better.  Oh well.  Armchair quarterbacking from 3,000 miles away...
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Offline sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #759 on: April 17, 2018, 10:06:23 AM »
Seems like an appropriate time for this story:

My freshman year in highschool 1998, I was wearing some of those Adidas snap up track pants. Since they were white, they were a little see through. And I had a previous incident of a girl pulling them off  :hat. So I wore white basketball shorts underneath... All good! Then my art teacher send me to the dean for wearing see through pants. I laugh after a small protest, assured in my mind the dean will see the stupidity in this. Nope. He tells me I'm suspended. I tell him I'm wearing shorts underneath, why not just have me take the pants off. Nope, suspended for 3 days, and call my mom to come pick me up. My exact words in the call, "Hey mom, this dumb piece of shit Dean is trying to suspend me for wearing see through pants with basketball shorts on underneath... Oh yeah, it's totally fucking stupid... Yeah I know, they're all fucking morons... You wanna talk to him? Here ya go." Back to class I went. :facepalm:

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #760 on: April 17, 2018, 10:10:36 AM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and surmise that self-consciousness is not one of the girl's issues.  :lol

As for the gawking, I'm gonna go with time and place, and the time-honored don't be a dick rules. Checking her out is going to happen, though, and it's not reasonable to demand otherwise.
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Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #761 on: April 17, 2018, 10:16:26 AM »
I'm going to go out on a limb and surmise that self-consciousness is not one of the girl's issues.  :lol

As for the gawking, I'm gonna go with time and place, and the time-honored don't be a dick rules. Checking her out is going to happen, though, and it's not reasonable to demand otherwise.

Checking her out probably occurs no matter what she's wearing if we are completely honest.  And those rules sound completely reasonable to me.

FWIW, I wonder how her high school handles the girls swim meets?  I mean, somebody might be able to see a nipple in those suits.   :o

Won't somebody think of the boys?!?  And the torture they must endure at the sight of a nipple?  I mean, living in Florida they must be so sheltered from nipples. 

Offline Harmony

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #762 on: April 17, 2018, 10:19:50 AM »
Seems like an appropriate time for this story:

My freshman year in highschool 1998, I was wearing some of those Adidas snap up track pants. Since they were white, they were a little see through. And I had a previous incident of a girl pulling them off  :hat. So I wore white basketball shorts underneath... All good! Then my art teacher send me to the dean for wearing see through pants. I laugh after a small protest, assured in my mind the dean will see the stupidity in this. Nope. He tells me I'm suspended. I tell him I'm wearing shorts underneath, why not just have me take the pants off. Nope, suspended for 3 days, and call my mom to come pick me up. My exact words in the call, "Hey mom, this dumb piece of shit Dean is trying to suspend me for wearing see through pants with basketball shorts on underneath... Oh yeah, it's totally fucking stupid... Yeah I know, they're all fucking morons... You wanna talk to him? Here ya go." Back to class I went. :facepalm:

That is exactly how I would want my son to handle that.  Maybe not say 'fucking' but that's a minor quibble.  As a mom, I'd have plenty of advice for the Dean.   :laugh:

See through pants?  That's a new one.  Hammer pants? 

Offline sylvan

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #763 on: April 17, 2018, 10:37:13 AM »
^^^ Teenagers aren't known for their sound judgement  :lol.

And I guess the moral of the story is that these teachers and administrators are just people, capable of the same stupid shit as anyone else. But that doesn't make it any less disheartening to see people perpetuate that stupid shit. It's just mind boggling to me that this went through so many people with nobody stepping up and saying, "Hey y'all, were doing this wrong..."

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #764 on: April 17, 2018, 10:50:18 AM »
It's just mind boggling to me that this went through so many people with nobody stepping up and saying, "Hey y'all, were doing this wrong..."

Speaking as someone who is married to a teacher, this is just not how things are done in the education system. 
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #765 on: April 17, 2018, 11:11:17 AM »
I should remind that the problem here is NOT the "boys".  ONE boy snickered and made the observation that "she's not wearing a bra".   The problem spiraled out of control when the TEACHER decided that this was a booby (her breasts) problem instead of a boob (the ONE boy) problem.   

The answer here was to take the "laughing" kid - doesn't matter why the kid was laughing - and tell him "shape up or ship down to Asst. Principal Vernon".


Offline lordxizor

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #766 on: April 17, 2018, 11:35:55 AM »
-The administrator should still have gone to the girl, and just said something like, "Oh, honey, look--you may not get it, or you may feel like it isn't YOUR problem, but you need to go home and get a bra on.  It's just not appropriate not to.  And when you are grown up and out on your own, if you want to express yourself by not wearing one, that's your call.  But at school here, it's just not appropriate."
I disagree that it's inappropriate to not wear a bra. As long as she's covered up, who cares what's underneath? I think it's perfectly fine for a female staff member to politely point out that she's likely to get some unwanted staring and snickering from the boys, but that it's ultimately her choice. The boys should be disciplined if they do something inappropriate, but otherwise everyone should just mind their own business.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #767 on: April 17, 2018, 12:01:05 PM »
Who said anything about policing?  I said TEACHING.  I have a son.  I teach him all sorts of things.  He goes to school.  He learns all sorts of things there.  He practices self control.  He's not perfect but we talk about time and place.  I don't treat him like he is too dumb to understand how to manage all sorts of things like peer pressure and responsibility for his own actions.

Why is the school punishing the girl in the story?

The policing phrase was an exaggeration, but come on, your post was full on positioning against the male for looking. 

Is there some parenting rule that boys cannot be taught how to avert their eyes?  Wouldn't that be an easier fix - not to mention a lesson that could have life-long impacts - than having girls put bandaids on their nipples?

I'm not even a guy and I'm a bit annoyed at the notion that it is so damned hard for a male to look awayOne might get the idea that boys aren't teachable or can't fathom the idea that there is a time and place for everything.  We can place expectations on boys to stay on task, to not be aggressive in the classroom, to not spit, not swear, not interrupt the teacher during the lesson but goodness, we can't suggest to them they can literally look in another direction?   :facepalm:

This seems to be completely putting the blame on someone for looking at what's presented in front of them and saying this is a male problem.  I've been around enough females to know this goes both ways too, but there's no fault (in my mind) of the looker.  Sure, there's a point where the looker becomes a bit creepy, but the looker isn't the source of the issue here.  I totally agree that the school shouldn't of made the girl put bandaids on her nipples.  That makes things worse IMO.  But as others have said, there's a time and place, not only for looking but also for the way you present yourself.  You can't so easily suggest people to go against human nature (looking).

Offline bosk1

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #768 on: April 17, 2018, 12:05:19 PM »
We'll just have to disagree then, because I do think it's inappropriate for that environment, and I think the school administration is perfectly within its rights to regulate that.  Girls wearing yoga pants or boys wearing spandex workout shorts would also be "covered up," but still too revealing and inappropriate for that environment.  For the gym, different story.  For a learning environment, not so much.  But again, if you disagree, then we'll just have to disagree.

And flowing from that, in response to Stadler's post, I think it was both types of problems, and they should have addressed both.  I have no problem with them recognizing that the problem with the girl's underdressing was a cause of the boys' reaction problem.  And that isn't a "she asked for it by the way she dressed issue"--again, the boys' reaction should have been called out as inappropriate.  But there can still be recognition that, although responsibility for how they react lies with the boys, the inappropriate dress is likely to cause that type of reaction.  Yeah, there's an aspect the boys need to learn about "mind your own business," and we can flip this around to any number of scenarios where people are ultimately responsible for their own reactions and need to "tend their own gardens," so to speak.  But I think it's also irresponsible and inconsiderate to ignore causation and cavalierly have an attitude of, "I don't really care how I effect others. I'm going to do what I want, and if they can't handle that, it's on them."  I think we create a much better society for one another when the focus turns from, "It's all about me, and I can do whatever I want" to "I'm part of a whole, and while individual expression is important, how can I also be aware of the impact of my decision on others and find a way to still be who I want while also being considerate?"
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #769 on: April 17, 2018, 12:18:36 PM »
I'm gonna side with Lordxizor on this one. Partly because I'm a dirty old man, but mostly because we as a society shouldn't be dictating that women wear something that must be uncomfortable as hell just for the comfort of the rest of us.
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