Author Topic: Harvey Weinstein  (Read 23161 times)

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Offline cramx3

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Harvey Weinstein
« on: October 11, 2017, 02:00:59 PM »
Since I saw talk in the political humor thread and PR side chat, figured maybe this should get a thread of it's own.

While sexual deeds for job advancement isn't anything new in the world we live in, I find it more interesting how this appears to be an open secret in Hollywood. 

Offline lonestar

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2017, 02:12:21 PM »
From Sean Astin's Facebook....


"HARVEY WEINSTEIN  - - My view

Beyond treating women in a vile, possibly criminal manner, I believe that Harvey Weinstein is a vicious bully who uses rage and the threat of rage to intimidate many many people. I’ve experienced some of his disrespectful (at best) behavior, with my own eyes and spoken to friends and colleagues who came into contact with the man. It is known that Harvey routinely eviscerates filmmakers, producers, agents and performers. Ranting and raving is the guy’s steady state. I think that he is a mean thug with a vindictive and menacing approach to anyone who gets in his way. Such is his reputation.

Rape and sexual perversion, sexual menacing, sexual intimidation are disgusting and where criminal, deserving of prosecution. The thought of Harvey Weinstein behind bars is deeply satisfying, if not fully enlightened.

Everyone is asking how it’s possible that his behavior was allowed to endure for so long. The suggestion is that somehow, women and girls who were subjected to Harvey’s grotesque behavior are in some way complicit. Low hanging media fruit is to attack politicians for accepting donations and other fundraising help from the legendary industry predator.

It’s a pervasive culture. That’s the cry. Everyone says, it’s time for the conversation to start. That ol’ chestnut. The basic themes and salacious reporting usually turn back in on itself and the so called conversation stalls. We all revere successful businessmen. So called “powerbrokers” are lifted up in many ways, financially, socially, politically, personally. All manner of bad behavior is tolerated as long as the hits keep coming, as long as business thrives.

The women who’ve been abused and the women who have spoken out should be celebrated for their courage. I also think that every single person who was bullied and abused in business by Harvey Weinstein should also speak out.

If the story starts and stops with Harvey’s sexual abuses and doesn’t expand to include the heinous behavior that he visited on women and men, in countless ways, throughout the entertainment industry, the full story will not have been told and the opportunity to change the culture will have been left wanting.

This is my hunch, my instinct and my intuition, informed by working for a few decades in the industry, a few direct experiences with him and many many more stories that were very close to me. Harvey was one of the Executive Producers of Lord of the Rings. A couple of years ago, Harvey behaved in an aggressive, insulting and basically rude manner with me on a call. He wanted something from me. I listened politely. I spoke respectfully. And I told him no.

Sincerely,
Sean"


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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2017, 05:07:14 PM »
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2017, 05:09:41 PM »
Is anyone really surprised by this nonsense going on in Hollywood?  It's sad, but predictable.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2017, 05:14:05 PM »
Is anyone really surprised by this nonsense going on in Hollywood?  It's sad, but predictable.

Thats not the point. Its the fact they covered it up.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2017, 05:16:52 PM »
That's not surprising either.

People with money and power will always do whatever it takes to protect their interests.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2017, 05:23:44 PM »
Did they actively cover it up or did they just look the other way? 

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 07:05:08 PM »
That's not surprising either.

People with money and power will always do whatever it takes to protect their interests.
The fact that it happens anywhere, even the supposed bastion of "liberal egalitarianism" that is Hollywood, is not particularly surprising especially when you consider the large sums of money involved. Surprise! Hypocrisy and sleaze abound in Hollywood, news at ten.

Did they actively cover it up or did they just look the other way? 
Unknown, but at some point, does the distinction really matter? I mean, I'm not going to do something as gross as equating a person who remains silent on such an issue as being as bad as the actual perpetrator, but... I don't know, it seems to be such a gray area to me. Lots of those people might have well-thought-out reasons for not saying anything (I'm not going to say "good" reasons), they might not believe the rumors, might not have any evidence, they might be under an NDA or contract of some sort, but other people have taken larger steps to expose wrongdoing at greater personal risk before so these reasons might not seem defensible to some of us. I don't know, like I said, big gray area there.

That said, at least we can all agree that Weinstein is a piece of shit and hopefully his ouster is another crack in the old boy's club mentality that seems to pervade so many industries still to this day.

To inject a bit more levity into a largely depressing subject, giant colostomy bag covered in human skin, Tucker Carlson, is going whole-hog down the Weinstein rabbit hole and is (because of course he is...) bringing Hillary into it. In true Pavlovian fashion, he just can't resist fucking that chicken.

But where oh where was his indignant, moral outrage when similar facts came to light about Ailes and O'Reilly? Just like his journalistic integrity, it was nowhere to be seen, but hey, at least he did learn that maybe, just maybe there might be some truth to this whole "sexual harassment" thing, even if it was 'made up by Democrats.'

Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 07:12:20 PM »
Did they actively cover it up or did they just look the other way? 
Unknown, but at some point, does the distinction really matter?

I get what youre saying, but I do think it matters in terms of understanding the situation and how it came to be after all these years with so many people apparently knowing about it.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2017, 07:16:58 PM »
Did they actively cover it up or did they just look the other way?

It's bad either way, in this case or Joe Paterno's.:P

That's not surprising either.

People with money and power will always do whatever it takes to protect their interests.
The fact that it happens anywhere, even the supposed bastion of "liberal egalitarianism" that is Hollywood, is not particularly surprising especially when you consider the large sums of money involved. Surprise! Hypocrisy and sleaze abound in Hollywood, news at ten.

So true.  I will chuckle a lot if that hypocritical sleaze Ben Affleck goes down in flames.

Offline cramx3

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 07:44:01 PM »
Did they actively cover it up or did they just look the other way?

It's bad either way, in this case or Joe Paterno's.:P


It is bad either way, but this did leave me to think about the Sandusky/Paterno situation as well.  The idea of people looking the other way and why/how that happens. 

Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 07:54:51 PM »
Did they actively cover it up or did they just look the other way? 
Unknown, but at some point, does the distinction really matter?

I get what youre saying, but I do think it matters in terms of understanding the situation and how it came to be after all these years with so many people apparently knowing about it.
Oh, I agree, there definitely needs to be some nuance in this. I mean everyone who turned a blind eye and "knew" about the offenses may not have truly known about them. They may have simply heard about it but not believed them or may have been coerced into silence with threats. Not all silence is equal in maliciousness, I think. But, someone who 100% knew about them and did nothing because Weinstein was a friend or some other reason, is that person really any better than the person who actively helps to cover it up? I mean, at that point, isn't the silence actively helping the cover-up?

I think when you get as many egos and as much power and money in one place as Hollywood (or any other place where the rich and powerful convene), it's no surprise when corruption, sleaze, and entitlement come to roost. Money talks, after all, many times much louder than anyone or anything else.

Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2017, 10:20:12 PM »
This is, very unfortunately, not surprising. The movie industry hides a lot of horrible secrets.
Obviously every bit of this is horrible and unacceptable. The man is a sack of shit. None of his accomplishments should shield him from that condemnation.
I also hope it comes to light anybody who helped him hide this kind of horrible behavior. We may lose a few actors we like in all of this, but if they shielded this kind of thing, they should fall with him.


Edit:

Quote
the supposed bastion of "liberal egalitarianism" that is Hollywood
I mean, it's a heavily capitalist pocket of the US. How liberal is it really?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:25:44 PM by TL »

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2017, 10:25:20 PM »
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Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2017, 10:27:50 PM »
This is something to think about.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/22179/flashback-michelle-obama-praised-wonderful-human-ryan-saavedra
Because all people know everything about every other human being from every point in their lives ever.

Come on dude. It's possible to like someone because you didn't know some fucked up thing about them they were hiding from the public. If we find out anyone was helping hide this knowingly, I will absolutely condemn them, but let's not expect people to be fucking psychic.

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2017, 10:29:02 PM »
This is something to think about.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/22179/flashback-michelle-obama-praised-wonderful-human-ryan-saavedra

Why does that matter? Do you know every secret of everyone you know?
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2017, 10:30:10 PM »
I agree, I doubt the Obamas knew what was going on with Weinstein. That was just your typical Hollywood/liberal politician love connection.

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2017, 10:32:34 PM »
I agree, I doubt the Obamas knew what was going on with Weinstein. That was just your typical Hollywood/liberal politician love connection.

You know, you've been on a very very strong anti-liberal thing lately. It doesn't seem necessary to make your points.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2017, 10:35:25 PM »
Out of curiosity, just how far back do we go with our indignation? This has been going on and people have been looking the other way for nearly a century. Weinstein's the Hitler de jour, so be it. I'm fine with that. But to assume that singling him out makes us better overlooks scores of years of systematic abuse that we were all keen to not look at. Where was the castigation when one of those Corey's tried to go public? People ignored him. Latoya Jackson has some pretty good reasons for resenting the industry and trying to protect her niece. "Eh, she's just another crazy Jackson." How many actresses got pimped out back in the studio system, an aspect of film-making we try not to discuss? Does anybody really think the DeNiros, the Nicholsons, the Pacinos, haven't been up to some sordid shit in their careers? Yet they're heroes.

Again, this isn't defending Weinstein. I'm glad times have changed enough for this to be a thing. I just think the degree of outrage we're seeing now is masturbatory. It feels good to be outraged, but it's completely superficial.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2017, 10:37:21 PM »
I agree, I doubt the Obamas knew what was going on with Weinstein. That was just your typical Hollywood/liberal politician love connection.

You know, you've been on a very very strong anti-liberal thing lately. It doesn't seem necessary to make your points.

 ???  I don't think it's anti-liberal to say that Hollywood and liberal politicians often come together in support of one another.  The outspoken Hollywood elite are very liberal, and the Democrats are always more than willing to embrace them as a result.  Not sure what the big deal is with pointing that out.

Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2017, 10:39:34 PM »
Just my observation. Maybe I'm off.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2017, 10:40:05 PM »
Out of curiosity, just how far back do we go with our indignation? This has been going on and people have been looking the other way for nearly a century. Weinstein's the Hitler de jour, so be it. I'm fine with that. But to assume that singling him out makes us better overlooks scores of years of systematic abuse that we were all keen to not look at. Where was the castigation when one of those Corey's tried to go public? People ignored him. Latoya Jackson has some pretty good reasons for resenting the industry and trying to protect her niece. "Eh, she's just another crazy Jackson." How many actresses got pimped out back in the studio system, an aspect of film-making we try not to discuss? Does anybody really think the DeNiros, the Nicholsons, the Pacinos, haven't been up to some sordid shit in their careers? Yet they're heroes.

Again, this isn't defending Weinstein. I'm glad times have changed enough for this to be a thing. I just think the degree of outrage we're seeing now is masturbatory. It feels good to be outraged, but it's completely superficial.

I'm sure there are other exectutives that have done this. Its abuse of power. The power to say. Do this or else you'll lose your job or worse. They have that control over these people. And now hes been exposed. Its like they feel relieved and can finally say something about it all. Not just Weinstein.. Who knows? Will others be outed? We'll see...

I'm not saying I know but its odd how people turned a blind eye to it. And now are treating it like its no big deal, we know its going on.
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Offline The King in Crimson

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2017, 10:40:42 PM »
Quote
the supposed bastion of "liberal egalitarianism" that is Hollywood
I mean, it's a heavily capitalist pocket of the US. How liberal is it really?
Well, conservatives love to rag on Hollywood for its perceived liberalism and many outspoken members of the community do love to "talk the talk" but I think you're right, it's really just a facade. I was more going with the "popular image" of Hollywood more than its reality. Plus, if you look at how the movies are actually made, Hollywood is very conservative nowadays and I don't mean politically so much as financially. Hollywood tends to chase trends, rarely pushes boundaries, and goes for the easy dollar over innovation. Hollywood is "liberal" not because it wants to take a strong stance for... something, but because their wallet benefits from doing so.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2017, 10:42:22 PM »
Just my observation. Maybe I'm off.

Your observation is noted.  I tend to be very much of a centrist, and I know I can occasionally come off as anti-liberal or anti-conservative, depending on the topic.

Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2017, 10:43:19 PM »
Out of curiosity, just how far back do we go with our indignation? This has been going on and people have been looking the other way for nearly a century. Weinstein's the Hitler de jour, so be it. I'm fine with that. But to assume that singling him out makes us better overlooks scores of years of systematic abuse that we were all keen to not look at. Where was the castigation when one of those Corey's tried to go public? People ignored him. Latoya Jackson has some pretty good reasons for resenting the industry and trying to protect her niece. "Eh, she's just another crazy Jackson." How many actresses got pimped out back in the studio system, an aspect of film-making we try not to discuss? Does anybody really think the DeNiros, the Nicholsons, the Pacinos, haven't been up to some sordid shit in their careers? Yet they're heroes.

Again, this isn't defending Weinstein. I'm glad times have changed enough for this to be a thing. I just think the degree of outrage we're seeing now is masturbatory. It feels good to be outraged, but it's completely superficial.
First, no, Weinstein isn't a scapegoat of sorts for sexual harassment and assault. Anyone else who has been engaging in this sort of heinous activity should be exposed and held to account. It's awful that reports have been ignored in the past. They shouldn't have. Hopefully this brings more things to light, since there is unfortunately almost definitely a lot more of this kind of thing out there. I honestly don't know what the hell your attempted point is.

Also, as awful as Weinstein's discretions were (and they were completely abhorrent), " Weinstein's the Hitler de jour "? Fuck off dude. Seriously.

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2017, 10:44:49 PM »
Uh, well that was unexpected.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:44:48 PM by El Barto »
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Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2017, 10:46:44 PM »
Uh, well that was unexpected.
You brought out a Hitler comparison. You don't get to play the victim here.

Edit: Weinstein's behavior is horrible, but not grounds for diminishing the horrific deaths of millions of innocent people.

Edit edit: I apologize for getting so belligerent. Me telling you to fuck off was unwarranted. I'm sorry. Maybe though, let's keep the references to genocidal madmen to a minimum for now?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 10:53:53 PM by TL »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 10:55:17 PM »
It wasn't a Hitler comparison, I never play the victim, and you've pretty much missed the entire point of everything I've said. You've also convinced me not to bother trying to elaborate.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2017, 10:57:46 PM »
I think instead of worrying about making sure all people in the history of the Hollywood get theirs, we should focus on change moving forward. Creating an environment where this isn't tolerated and people are outed for it. If we can change things piece by piece moving forward, I think that's good, even if all the rest of the guys from the past don't get their comeuppance.
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Offline Adami

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2017, 10:58:55 PM »
Just my observation. Maybe I'm off.

Your observation is noted.  I tend to be very much of a centrist, and I know I can occasionally come off as anti-liberal or anti-conservative, depending on the topic.

I think most people tend to think of themselves as centrists, whether or not they are.

Either way, based off your icon, I can assume you are least pro ditch-diggers.
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Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2017, 11:01:31 PM »
It wasn't a Hitler comparison, I never play the victim, and you've pretty much missed the entire point of everything I've said. You've also convinced me not to bother trying to elaborate.

 I don't know if I've, "Missed the point" of your post, as much as you've failed to properly communicate your message. If people can so easily misinterpret your intent, maybe you aren't as good a communicator as you see yourself as. I'm sorry you did such a poor point at communicating earlier that you aren't even going to try to redeem it.
I'm a little puzzled as to how, "The hitler du jour", translating as, "The hitler of today", isn't a Hitler comparison. You know, literally mentioning Hitler and all.

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2017, 11:03:16 PM »
Things like this (sex scandals and why do we not call these people out) remind me that Jimmy Page had a very public and controversial relationship with a 14 year old.    Today....any "rock god" would be called a pedophile.   For some reason, with Jimmy Page, it gets mentioned for a microsecond, and then forgotten again.   

This is just an example of how "normal" this is in the entire entertainment industry.  I honestly do believe that there is a culture where "normal" is completely re-classified.    Our version of normal doesnt even register to these people.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2017, 11:03:31 PM »
Out of curiosity, just how far back do we go with our indignation? This has been going on and people have been looking the other way for nearly a century. Weinstein's the Hitler de jour, so be it. I'm fine with that. But to assume that singling him out makes us better overlooks scores of years of systematic abuse that we were all keen to not look at. Where was the castigation when one of those Corey's tried to go public? People ignored him. Latoya Jackson has some pretty good reasons for resenting the industry and trying to protect her niece. "Eh, she's just another crazy Jackson." How many actresses got pimped out back in the studio system, an aspect of film-making we try not to discuss? Does anybody really think the DeNiros, the Nicholsons, the Pacinos, haven't been up to some sordid shit in their careers? Yet they're heroes.

Again, this isn't defending Weinstein. I'm glad times have changed enough for this to be a thing. I just think the degree of outrage we're seeing now is masturbatory. It feels good to be outraged, but it's completely superficial.

I'm sure there are other exectutives that have done this. Its abuse of power. The power to say. Do this or else you'll lose your job or worse. They have that control over these people. And now hes been exposed. Its like they feel relieved and can finally say something about it all. Not just Weinstein.. Who knows? Will others be outed? We'll see...

I'm not saying I know but its odd how people turned a blind eye to it. And now are treating it like its no big deal, we know its going on.
I just think the scope is bigger than what people realize. You say there were probably other executives doing this, but it's been the nature of the entire industry. I'd be more inclined to say "I'm sure there are other executives who weren't pulling this sort of thing." It just surprises me that this surprises anybody. Does the mainstream public think the casting couch wasn't really a thing? Or that it disappeared in the 70's? It's been more of a joke than anything for the public to get upset about. Now people have suddenly gone from intentionally unaware to sharpening their pitchforks on a moment's notice.
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Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2017, 11:05:25 PM »
Things like this (sex scandals and why do we not call these people out) remind me that Jimmy Page had a very public and controversial relationship with a 14 year old.    Today....any "rock god" would be called a pedophile.   For some reason, with Jimmy Page, it gets mentioned for a microsecond, and then forgotten again.   

This is just an example of how "normal" this is in the entire entertainment industry.  I honestly do believe that there is a culture where "normal" is completely re-classified.    Our version of normal doesnt even register to these people.
This is a good point, and a good case for re-examining a lot of things from the entertainment history's past. People shouldn't be exempt from norms or laws just because they made an entertaining thing in the past. There are definitely cases of messed up things that happened in the past that were simply overlooked at the time for reasons of fame, that should be re-examined now.

Offline TL

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Re: Harvey Weinstein
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2017, 11:13:12 PM »
Out of curiosity, just how far back do we go with our indignation? This has been going on and people have been looking the other way for nearly a century. Weinstein's the Hitler de jour, so be it. I'm fine with that. But to assume that singling him out makes us better overlooks scores of years of systematic abuse that we were all keen to not look at. Where was the castigation when one of those Corey's tried to go public? People ignored him. Latoya Jackson has some pretty good reasons for resenting the industry and trying to protect her niece. "Eh, she's just another crazy Jackson." How many actresses got pimped out back in the studio system, an aspect of film-making we try not to discuss? Does anybody really think the DeNiros, the Nicholsons, the Pacinos, haven't been up to some sordid shit in their careers? Yet they're heroes.

Again, this isn't defending Weinstein. I'm glad times have changed enough for this to be a thing. I just think the degree of outrage we're seeing now is masturbatory. It feels good to be outraged, but it's completely superficial.

I'm sure there are other exectutives that have done this. Its abuse of power. The power to say. Do this or else you'll lose your job or worse. They have that control over these people. And now hes been exposed. Its like they feel relieved and can finally say something about it all. Not just Weinstein.. Who knows? Will others be outed? We'll see...

I'm not saying I know but its odd how people turned a blind eye to it. And now are treating it like its no big deal, we know its going on.
I just think the scope is bigger than what people realize. You say there were probably other executives doing this, but it's been the nature of the entire industry. I'd be more inclined to say "I'm sure there are other executives who weren't pulling this sort of thing." It just surprises me that this surprises anybody. Does the mainstream public think the casting couch wasn't really a thing? Or that it disappeared in the 70's? It's been more of a joke than anything for the public to get upset about. Now people have suddenly gone from intentionally unaware to sharpening their pitchforks on a moment's notice.
Literally the first thing I said about this here is that, unfortunately, it didn't surprise me.
This is horrible. Any such incidents like this should come to light. This is absolutely a massive problem. I feel like we're talking past each other, and I'm willing to pull back my personal attacks to take that into account. Yes. the entertainment industry is severely corrupted. I'm not sure how to deal with this, but it can't be allowed to continue just because it's been happening for a while.

I think a lot of people were aware that "some bad things" were going on, but that they thought it was the exception, even though it was probably the rule. Personally, I'm more than willing to tear down most or even all of the current system to get rid of that kind of bullshit.

It's a system that has been allowed to persist for far too long. People should absolutely be upset. People should absolutely be raising their pitchforks. If need-be, people should be rushing the gates and tearing it all down to build anew.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2017, 11:18:29 PM by TL »