Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[MinistroRaven]

I listen my music at home and most of the times my kids are in the house, (I use a lot of foul language ON MY HEAD, meaning that my kids has never hearing me said a bad word) My oldest son (7 years old) likes a lot of the music I listen to, TA, NM, FC, DT you name it, but with this record (live recording) I am having problems listening to it out loud because of the mother fucker, fuking, fucker and so on that JSS used on this. ( I counted 4 or 5 before the ending of song 12) I had to turn it off. And it is sad, because my son loves SOA and in his own words he wants to get to play like his "uncle" Portnoy.

[cramx3]

Yea, JSS probably should have cut it back for the live recording for that reason.  I don't mind it live because there's something about the energy in a room and saying fuck yea kind of goes with that at times, but I can already see how it may be excessive to some in the live environment, but on CD yea maybe you should just hold back or edit them out.

[MoraWintersoul]

I know you're both just complaining about something that bothers you, and not prescribing what is acceptable behavior, but I think being safe for work and 7-year-olds shouldn't be asked of any rock frontman. I listen to some vanilla-ass bands that don't even touch sex or drugs, but they too drop F-bombs when they perform, because that's just the way it is. "Fuck" has gone the way of "hell" and "shit", it's just a modifier at this point  Most of these guys are fathers, I'm sure there were some judgment calls about whether or not their kids are old enough to hear some of their music and see some of their videos, but they either just had a talk about bad words or waited until their kids were a little older.

[MinistroRaven]

Another friend who I know has a promo copy of the album (he writes for a different outlet than we do) wrote this about the album:

"Some thoughts on SOA Live after a quick listen:
- overall I think it’s a decent mix. Maybe there’s ways to make it better, but I grew up on Yessongs so I’m not picky with live recordings
- that said, I think it would have been better to not have the guitar panned left so much (keys are on the right) because this often leads to Bumblefoot sounding too low in the mix; esp. during solo’s he should be prominent in both channels. The only time it worked for me was when they’re shredding at the same time, like in the middle of Just Let Me Breathe, that’s awesome.
- on the SOA material, the band sounds mighty. I like the mix just fine, aside from the gtr/keys panning. JSS’ vocals could even be more prominent in the mix on the SOA songs (not necessarily more volume, but some added effects which would spread him more evenly in both channels), his voice is overwhelmed during the pummeling songs
- covers sound great to me, Kashmir is majestic as it should be and the symphony sounds great. Same with Dream On. Comfortably Numb is fantastic, and I like that Mike sang the Waters part, he nailed it. There’s no guitar player I’d rather hear than Gilmour (I’m not as much into shredders), but I was fine with Bumblefoot’s playing - he played the proper solo note for note (probably at Mike’s insistence) but then it’s totally fine for him to pyro the end of the solo to make it his own. Again, his guitar should have not been panned to the left so much.
- maybe JSS has better vocal nights than this, but I get the sense that this is where his voice usually is. Any criticism of him here I think is more a factor that you just want another singer for the band with other natural abilities than JSS has. Overall I thought he did great on the covers. He has the ability to capture the nuances of Freddie even though his tone might be different, and he did that for other singers, too."

As someone once said: to each its own.

[Orbert]

Interesting that he grew up on Yessongs (as did I) yet has so much issue with the hard panning.  In the 70's, everyone panned hard.  If you have two guitars, one's on the left and one's on the right.  If you have keyboards, they're on one side and guitar's on the other.

But I get that for solos, you generally give them "center stage" so a raging solo totally over on one side would be kinda weird.

[ytserush]

So you're saying he's Jeff Scott Soso?

He'a always been that for me. Just not my style.

[ytserush]

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't matter if he was acting like a jerk because he really believes the crap he was saying, or if it's because he was trying to create controversy just to get attention and more album sales.  Either way it's still lame.  Fortunately for me, I don't like the album anyway so it's simple to "boycott."  However - without all that, I would have supported them anyway, even though I didn't like the album, just to support MP.  DS (and MP too) turned me off from wanting to support them at all.

        

I used to just buy MP's stuff to support him, even though I didn't care for whatever it was sometimes, and same with DS.  What sucks most for me is that I'm not supporting the other guys due to their garbage so it doesn't just affect them, it affects others.

My point of view has always been if I know I'm going to like it, I'll get it. This was the first album that I wasn't so sure. Still not. Live album has to be better though, right?  I flat out love Derek's fusion period. The rock stuff? Not so much.

[ytserush]

And what about their original songs?  Maybe I'm a minority, but I consider the covers just a bonus here.  I hope the reason I'd watch this more than once was to watch the original songs live.

The covers aren't the reason to get this I would think. Thought it was odd that the trailer mostly featured them instead of the original songs.  Not sure why that decision was made.

[ytserush]

Interesting that he grew up on Yessongs (as did I) yet has so much issue with the hard panning.  In the 70's, everyone panned hard.  If you have two guitars, one's on the left and one's on the right.  If you have keyboards, they're on one side and guitar's on the other.

But I get that for solos, you generally give them "center stage" so a raging solo totally over on one side would be kinda weird.

And Yessongs is VERY low bar to compare sonics and mix with. Maybe I need to rethink the CD/DVD and just settle on one or the other.

[Madman Shepherd]

"Comfortably Numb is fantastic, and I like that Mike sang the Waters part"


Oh God no.

[SystematicThought]

"Comfortably Numb is fantastic, and I like that Mike sang the Waters part"


Oh God no.

That was my first reaction as well

[KevShmev]

I listen my music at home and most of the times my kids are in the house, (I use a lot of foul language ON MY HEAD, meaning that my kids has never hearing me said a bad word) My oldest son (7 years old) likes a lot of the music I listen to, TA, NM, FC, DT you name it, but with this record (live recording) I am having problems listening to it out loud because of the mother fucker, fuking, fucker and so on that JSS used on this. ( I counted 4 or 5 before the ending of song 12) I had to turn it off. And it is sad, because my son loves SOA and in his own words he wants to get to play like his "uncle" Portnoy.

That reminds me of the first Yellow Matter Custard DVD.  My parents, who are huge longtime Beatles fans, would have gotten a huge thrill out of watching it, but they don't want to hear all kinds of language, and Portnoy drops f-bombs left and right when talking in between songs, so I never even bothered to play it for them.

[MoraWintersoul]

maybe JSS has better vocal nights than this, but I get the sense that this is where his voice usually is. Any criticism of him here I think is more a factor that you just want another singer for the band with other natural abilities than JSS has. Overall I thought he did great on the covers. He has the ability to capture the nuances of Freddie even though his tone might be different, and he did that for other singers, too.

This is how I always feel about JSS. Yeah, he has a "regular" rock voice, but as far as I'm concerned, it's an exceptionally good rock voice. He has incredible singing knowledge and experience, you just feel the man lives to sing and be in a rock band. But MP's already worked with James and Russell and other incredibly loved singers on this forum, and no one can live up to that.

[Skeever]

I know you're both just complaining about something that bothers you, and not prescribing what is acceptable behavior, but I think being safe for work and 7-year-olds shouldn't be asked of any rock frontman. I listen to some vanilla-ass bands that don't even touch sex or drugs, but they too drop F-bombs when they perform, because that's just the way it is. "Fuck" has gone the way of "hell" and "shit", it's just a modifier at this point  Most of these guys are fathers, I'm sure there were some judgment calls about whether or not their kids are old enough to hear some of their music and see some of their videos, but they either just had a talk about bad words or waited until their kids were a little older.

I suppose you're right, but I always expected a level of artistry and intelligence from progressive bands, and while I have nothing against those words, when I hear a singer acting like that on stage it just reminds me that these sorts of bands are more like their peers than they are those would would try surpass them to elevate the artform.

[bosk1]

I know you're both just complaining about something that bothers you, and not prescribing what is acceptable behavior, but I think being safe for work and 7-year-olds shouldn't be asked of any rock frontman. I listen to some vanilla-ass bands that don't even touch sex or drugs, but they too drop F-bombs when they perform, because that's just the way it is. "Fuck" has gone the way of "hell" and "shit", it's just a modifier at this point  Most of these guys are fathers, I'm sure there were some judgment calls about whether or not their kids are old enough to hear some of their music and see some of their videos, but they either just had a talk about bad words or waited until their kids were a little older.

I suppose you're right, but I always expected a level of artistry and intelligence from progressive bands, and while I have nothing against those words, when I hear a singer acting like that on stage it just reminds me that these sorts of bands are more like their peers than they are those would would try surpass them to elevate the artform.

Exactly.  And if they cannot use language showing that they have matured past adolescence, it is a big turnoff.

[MinistroRaven]

I know you're both just complaining about something that bothers you, and not prescribing what is acceptable behavior, but I think being safe for work and 7-year-olds shouldn't be asked of any rock frontman. I listen to some vanilla-ass bands that don't even touch sex or drugs, but they too drop F-bombs when they perform, because that's just the way it is. "Fuck" has gone the way of "hell" and "shit", it's just a modifier at this point  Most of these guys are fathers, I'm sure there were some judgment calls about whether or not their kids are old enough to hear some of their music and see some of their videos, but they either just had a talk about bad words or waited until their kids were a little older.

spot on

I suppose you're right, but I always expected a level of artistry and intelligence from progressive bands, and while I have nothing against those words, when I hear a singer acting like that on stage it just reminds me that these sorts of bands are more like their peers than they are those would would try surpass them to elevate the artform.

Exactly.  And if they cannot use language showing that they have matured past adolescence, it is a big turnoff.

[The Walrus]

Oh c'mon. I get being offended by foul language but acting as if prog bands are somehow on a higher artistic level than normal rock bands and therefore shouldn't swear is such an elitist mentality.

[bosk1]

I get being offended by foul language

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I'm not "offended."  I do, however, lose respect for those who cannot restrain their tongues and use more mature language.

...but acting as if prog bands are somehow on a higher artistic level than normal rock bands and therefore shouldn't swear is such an elitist mentality.

Yes.

[The Walrus]

I get being offended by foul language

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I'm not "offended."  I do, however, lose respect for those who cannot restrain their tongues and use more mature language.

...but acting as if prog bands are somehow on a higher artistic level than normal rock bands and therefore shouldn't swear is such an elitist mentality.

Yes.

I'm going to use Dave as an example here because Dave is one of the smartest people on this board. Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section? It is very possible to use crass language and write/speak in an intelligent manner. I just don't see the problem with a musician who's trying to entertain people acting loose on stage and dropping a big bad naughty word once in a while... like, it's their stage, their time to entertain, is 'fuck' really that big a deal? To be honest I find people who occasionally swear to be more forthright than those who go out of their way to avoid it, but I also come from the heartland where people really don't give a s&*% about offensive language mostly

[cramx3]

Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Wasn't this similar conversation just being discussed in P/R 

But for me, I don't care about the cursing and only commented that for a live release, maybe you cut back since your audience is much bigger than your crowd at the venue who will react differently to it.  Very similar to how I disliked all the "yea"s on the album but they work fine live.

On another note, cursing in our culture is just becoming more and more normal so it's kind of becoming less of a thing.

[bosk1]

I'm going to use Dave as an example here because Dave is one of the smartest people on this board. Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Yes.  But can I also look past that and evaluate the point he is actually making?  Sure.

It is very possible to use crass language and write/speak in an intelligent manner.

Correct.

I just don't see the problem with a musician who's trying to entertain people acting loose on stage and dropping a big bad naughty word once in a while... like, it's their stage, their time to entertain, is 'fuck' really that big a deal?

And that's fine.  We have different standards.  I am tolerant of yours.  But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.  It isn't a "big deal" at all--again, we just have different standards for what we like.  But, to bring us back on topic, where it is in my entertainment, I will more often look for my entertainment elsewhere.  Thankfully, there are bountiful options in that regard.

[Grappler]

Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Wasn't this similar conversation just being discussed in P/R 

But for me, I don't care about the cursing and only commented that for a live release, maybe you cut back since your audience is much bigger than your crowd at the venue who will react differently to it.  Very similar to how I disliked all the "yea"s on the album but they work fine live.

On another note, cursing in our culture is just becoming more and more normal so it's kind of becoming less of a thing.

Yeah, but we have to be a bit more cognizant about it.  My daughter is 4 and will repeat anything she hears.  I've had to remember to not play certain cd's in the car with her because of the material, whether it's a lyric or curse word. 

I personally don't care - if a singer wants to swear all night, go ahead.  But now that I have young kids it becomes more of an issue to limit their exposure to the words. 

Joakim from Sabaton is the best.  When I saw them open for Iced Earth, he dropped an F-bomb and then immediately lectured the kid in the front row to never repeat the word.  Then he swore again as a joke.      The kid ended up getting his aviators later on and his dad was loving the experience.   

[Stadler]

As someone who is prone to an f-bomb on occasion, I think the real issue is, pardon the pun, knowing your audience.   I know for me, watching "reality" TV where every other word is a bleeped F-bomb is a real turnoff, and I absolutely judge the person for their lack of self-control, because that's what it is.  A lack of self-control.  I know for me, I don't swear at work, and I have never once, ever, dropped an f-bomb in front of my mom, and only once or twice in front of my dad.

I note that I've seen Paul Stanley multiple times with makeup and without.  With makeup, his raps are very much in the "I wanna rock!" vein, with few swear words (on occasion, but rare).   Without makeup, in the 80's? His raps were x-rated and on some nights, even I was like "Paul, tone it the f*** down".   I think Paul knows/knew that his audience wasn't the same.  Now, there are a TON of kids at a Kiss show, and he acts more appropriately.

I also think there's a difference between "live" and "on DVD".  He could have very easily excised the f-words from THAT PERFORMANCE, and not been any less aggressive, authentic, or "rock and roll".  Phil Collins used to regularly drop f-bombs in Genesis shows (even changing the lyric to "Invisible Touch" to "f*** up your life") but for the several live DVDs?  I think there's one case where it slipped through.  Maybe two.   

For me, I don't care about the word, as much as what is the message it sends?   It seems to me, no matter what Derek said in the run up to the album, they want desperately to be Van Halen circa 1984 or Yngwie Malmsteen circa 1987 more than they want to be Yes circa 1974, or Dream Theater circa 1997.   

[The Walrus]

I'm going to use Dave as an example here because Dave is one of the smartest people on this board. Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Yes.

Not ignoring the rest of your post, just so you know... but why? I guess I don't fully understand why someone would lose your respect just because they used a harsh word. What is it that immediately makes you lose respect? I hold respect for people in high regard, in other words, it takes more than that to tarnish the respect I have for someone, especially a musician I don't personally know. Can you elaborate? Not trying to be argumentative, I guess I'm just from a whole other world and don't see why a colorful word in and of itself is cause for loss of respect.

[MinistroRaven]

Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Wasn't this similar conversation just being discussed in P/R 

But for me, I don't care about the cursing and only commented that for a live release, maybe you cut back since your audience is much bigger than your crowd at the venue who will react differently to it.  Very similar to how I disliked all the "yea"s on the album but they work fine live.

On another note, cursing in our culture is just becoming more and more normal so it's kind of becoming less of a thing.

Yeah, but we have to be a bit more cognizant about it.  My daughter is 4 and will repeat anything she hears.  I've had to remember to not play certain cd's in the car with her because of the material, whether it's a lyric or curse word. 

I personally don't care - if a singer wants to swear all night, go ahead.  But now that I have young kids it becomes more of an issue to limit their exposure to the words. 

Joakim from Sabaton is the best.  When I saw them open for Iced Earth, he dropped an F-bomb and then immediately lectured the kid in the front row to never repeat the word.  Then he swore again as a joke.      The kid ended up getting his aviators later on and his dad was loving the experience.

 

[bosk1]

I'm going to use Dave as an example here because Dave is one of the smartest people on this board. Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Yes.

Not ignoring the rest of your post, just so you know... but why? I guess I don't fully understand why someone would lose your respect just because they used a harsh word. What is it that immediately makes you lose respect? I hold respect for people in high regard, in other words, it takes more than that to tarnish the respect I have for someone, especially a musician I don't personally know. Can you elaborate? Not trying to be argumentative, I guess I'm just from a whole other world and don't see why a colorful word in and of itself is cause for loss of respect.

Good question, and a fair one.  Let me give that the thought it deserves and get back to you when I have a bit more time.

[Peter Mc]

Do you lose respect for him when he drops an F bomb in an otherwise articulate, eloquent post in the P/R section?

Wasn't this similar conversation just being discussed in P/R 

But for me, I don't care about the cursing and only commented that for a live release, maybe you cut back since your audience is much bigger than your crowd at the venue who will react differently to it.  Very similar to how I disliked all the "yea"s on the album but they work fine live.

On another note, cursing in our culture is just becoming more and more normal so it's kind of becoming less of a thing.

Yeah, but we have to be a bit more cognizant about it.  My daughter is 4 and will repeat anything she hears.  I've had to remember to not play certain cd's in the car with her because of the material, whether it's a lyric or curse word. 

I personally don't care - if a singer wants to swear all night, go ahead.  But now that I have young kids it becomes more of an issue to limit their exposure to the words. 

Joakim from Sabaton is the best.  When I saw them open for Iced Earth, he dropped an F-bomb and then immediately lectured the kid in the front row to never repeat the word.  Then he swore again as a joke.      The kid ended up getting his aviators later on and his dad was loving the experience.

I totally understand that, as a parent, you may not wish your 4 year old to hear bad language. Like others have said though, bands can’t be expected to tailor their shows to 4 year olds. If you go to a metal show or a football (soccer) match, you’re likely going to hear bad language and it’s up to you, as a parent, to decide if you want to subject your kid to that. I think a live dvd should reflect the energy of the live experience, not necessarily be a case where you have to be on your best behaviour because you’ll be on the tv. As a parent, if it bothers you (I know some parents who have no issue with cursing in front of their kids) you can censor the bad words, not show the show to your kids at all or just explain that they shouldn’t use those words. We all hear swear words as we grow up but learn the time and place to use them. I would never swear in front of my parents for example but conversations with friends are peppered with f-bombs and even c-bombs are pretty commonplace these days. I’m not one of the worst for it in the group but it’s not remotely offensive to me either, they’re just a normal part of the conversation.

Where I agree with Bosk is that it is cringeworthy when bands, particularly old guys like a SOA type band swear to try and be cool. “Hey everyone, we’re not a bunch of boring old farts, we’re still cool and rebellious, listen we even use bad language” I’m not saying SOA are doing that, maybe JSS swears a lot generally and it’s just how he talks, I think MP probably does swear a lot in real life. Does seem a little out of place if he’s swearing profusely on Beatles cover albums though.

[DTA]

I always remember the "nothing but fucking epics!" line from the TA Live In Europe DVD and cringed even back then as a teenager. But it doesn't bother me when James Hetfield does it in the Seattle '89 Metallica video.I can't explain it but it's just the way it is. I guess because Roine, Pete, and Neal always seem so positive and mild-mannered that I'm actually embarrassed for them.

[MinistroRaven]

I am watching the whole concert now, and it seems to my not trained ears that the mix it's a bit different (in a good way).

Now, why do you mix the audio for the video differently than the one for the CD?

[PetFish]

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me, I'm not "offended."  I do, however, lose respect for those who cannot restrain their tongues and use more mature language.

Yep.  There's no doubt about it, "fuck" is an awesome word and has so many uses, but that doesn't mean it's ok to just throw it around constantly.  You have to adjust your attitude based on factors such as who you're with and where you are.

For example, I speak/act one way with my family, another with my co-workers, and another with my friends.  If you notice past DT footage you'll notice how much JP and JR swear and I'm sure they were feeding off of MP.  Now that he's gone they rarely swear.  I think JL is the only one who still does but even so it's definitely not nearly as frequent as it used to be.

It's a pussy cop-out to say "well, that's how I talk and if you don't like it then it's *you're* problem, not mine" rather than understand the situation.  It's a lot easier to walk around with that attitude saying "fuck you" to everyone and then pulling the "that's just me" crap.  You don't just walk into a daycare and start dropping bombs and then hide behind the "that's just me" cliche.

My respect goes to the people who can recognize the different situations and act/speak appropriately.  I'm not offended by foul language itself, just in the manner in which it's being utilized.

[Evermind]

Case in point: some random guy sitting behind me on my commute train today was talking on his phone and every third or fourth word of his eloquent speech was an equivalent of "fuck" in our language, or a derivative from it.

Fuck you, random stranger.

[Madman Shepherd]

A band called Three Inches of Blood opened for King Diamond many years ago. Not a good fit for many reasons.  After the first song the vocalist yells, "Hey fuckers how ya doing?!?"

Older dude in front of me, old school, longish grey hair with receding hairline responds without skipping a beat, "Not good. You just called me a fucker."

[SwedishGoose]

A band called Three Inches of Blood opened for King Diamond many years ago. Not a good fit for many reasons.  After the first song the vocalist yells, "Hey fuckers how ya doing?!?"

Older dude in front of me, old school, longish grey hair with receding hairline responds without skipping a beat, "Not good. You just called me a fucker."

Ha.... yeah insulting your audience is not the best thing to do.

Saying things like: "Thanks for tonight, you were fucking amazing!", is ok in my book but keep the swearwords to a minimum. Calling your audience fuckers..... not acceptable

[The Walrus]

But in all seriousness, how fragile a person do you have to be to get upset at a frontman calling the audience "fuckers" in a lighthearted manner? "Hey fuckers, how ya doing?" is offensive? Nobody ever has malicious intent by saying that stuff unless it's at a heckler or someone causing trouble in the crowd. At a metal show of all things? I get why people don't use language around kids. I don't get why it's a big deal amongst grown adults at a rock/metal show. I imagine in the 80s anyone complaining about a bad word would be called, er, well, an even worse bad word, if you catch my drift.

[Orbert]

Sure, it's not meant seriously, the guy isn't literally calling his audience a bunch of fuckers, it's just an expression, etc.

But it still says something about them if the first thing they do is call the audience a bunch of fuckers.  Metal is a different attitude.  Harsh, heavy, all kinds of things that would offend your mom.  Cool, I get that.  But not everybody who enjoys the music is into the entire "scene", leather and studs, tattoos, piercings and other body art, lots of profanity and don't-give-a-shit attitude.  That doesn't offend me so much as it just annoys me.  I'm in it for the music, period.