Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[El Barto]

Re: DT & SoA together
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 08:11:53 PM »
Quote from: Kattelox on November 13, 2017, 07:02:44 PM

    I disagree strongly with that last sentence, El Barto - the boys have a blast on stage and it's a great fun time. 


Sometimes you're horribly wrong (like about Scarred) but this is spot on.    The Astonishing tour was a bit of an anomaly, but this I&W tour is very much a "rock concert."  As was the DT12 tour.

I've seen DT upwards of 15 times, both in small venues and big ones, and only twice did I get the sense that they were trying to be a rock band playing a rock show (and one was opening for Maiden). Part of it is because I have a wider frame of reference, having grown up seeing shows in the 80's which are a completely different concept. I won't hold that against them, although I'll point out that Portnoy damn sure understood the difference and shared my nostalgia. But part of it is that it's simply not what the band, nor its fans, want to do. They want the albums recreated as accurately as possible. Fun is secondary to that goal, and it shows in the band's energy, or lack thereof. A lack of energy from both the band and the fans. It's very rare for me to get a rock show vibe when going to see them, milling around in the concourse or lobby. The atmosphere tends to be as sterile as the show itself.

Contrast that with a WD show, or even the Shattered Fortress gig last month. I suspect people who saw both (I won't see DT until the last night, assuming they make it that far) would attest to it being a very different sort of show. A different atmosphere. Venues also play a big role in this. Cramming a thousand people into Irving Plaza is going to create a different experience than 1000 folks lounging about a 3500 seat theater.

In the end this is all going to be a subjective thing, and there's no way I'll change the minds of DT fans. That's impossible under any circumstances. I'm just seeing a distinction that lies right on the line of what I like and don't like. DT has always been on the bad side of that, and now they're way out on the outer fringes. SoA will be on the good side of that line, and make a double billing (the OP that I'm referring to) unworkable. Like I said, two very different ideas of what a rock concert should be.

[Ben_Jamin]

Ugh...Hearing Man With No Name from Dereks Blood of The Snake album, its how I thought Sons Of Apollo was gonna be more like in terms of the key sounds and vibe.

[Lowdz]

Looking at Ron almost makes me want to forget Derek’s sins and buy the album. Almost.

Ron and Jeff were the reasons I did. In my mind, my money went just to those two. I lost all respect for Billy when I found out his “religious “ views.

[bill1971]

Re: DT & SoA together
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 08:11:53 PM »
Quote from: Kattelox on November 13, 2017, 07:02:44 PM

    I disagree strongly with that last sentence, El Barto - the boys have a blast on stage and it's a great fun time. 


Sometimes you're horribly wrong (like about Scarred) but this is spot on.    The Astonishing tour was a bit of an anomaly, but this I&W tour is very much a "rock concert."  As was the DT12 tour.

I've seen DT upwards of 15 times, both in small venues and big ones, and only twice did I get the sense that they were trying to be a rock band playing a rock show (and one was opening for Maiden). Part of it is because I have a wider frame of reference, having grown up seeing shows in the 80's which are a completely different concept. I won't hold that against them, although I'll point out that Portnoy damn sure understood the difference and shared my nostalgia. But part of it is that it's simply not what the band, nor its fans, want to do. They want the albums recreated as accurately as possible. Fun is secondary to that goal, and it shows in the band's energy, or lack thereof. A lack of energy from both the band and the fans. It's very rare for me to get a rock show vibe when going to see them, milling around in the concourse or lobby. The atmosphere tends to be as sterile as the show itself.

Contrast that with a WD show, or even the Shattered Fortress gig last month. I suspect people who saw both (I won't see DT until the last night, assuming they make it that far) would attest to it being a very different sort of show. A different atmosphere. Venues also play a big role in this. Cramming a thousand people into Irving Plaza is going to create a different experience than 1000 folks lounging about a 3500 seat theater.

In the end this is all going to be a subjective thing, and there's no way I'll change the minds of DT fans. That's impossible under any circumstances. I'm just seeing a distinction that lies right on the line of what I like and don't like. DT has always been on the bad side of that, and now they're way out on the outer fringes. SoA will be on the good side of that line, and make a double billing (the OP that I'm referring to) unworkable. Like I said, two very different ideas of what a rock concert should be.

I have seen DT about 14 times going back to 1994 on the Awake tour. For me the vibe changed with the venues. When it was general admission in a smaller venue like DT used to play it had more of a rock concert feel. Or at least a more intimate one. Once they became more successful and up until The Astonishing tour where I saw them last, it still felt like a rock concert much like Rush but it lost a bit of it's intimate feel. I don't think MP brought that at all, I think it's the venues. When I last saw DT with MP on the Black Clouds tour, it did not feel any more Rock and Roll than the self titled Tour . As a matter of fact it was more fun, the band seemed more relaxed and enjoying themselves more. It felt more like a band and less like the Mike Portnoy and his backing band show. The Astonishing Tour did not have a rock concert feel per se because it was more of a show like Jesus Christ Super Star.

I agree that the SOA as well as I am sure the Shattered Fortress will have a more intimate feel.  I doubt my post will change the mind of any loyal MP fan though just like your post wont change the mind of any DT fans.

[Lethean]

Re: DT & SoA together
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 08:11:53 PM »
Quote from: Kattelox on November 13, 2017, 07:02:44 PM

    I disagree strongly with that last sentence, El Barto - the boys have a blast on stage and it's a great fun time. 


Sometimes you're horribly wrong (like about Scarred) but this is spot on.    The Astonishing tour was a bit of an anomaly, but this I&W tour is very much a "rock concert."  As was the DT12 tour.

I've seen DT upwards of 15 times, both in small venues and big ones, and only twice did I get the sense that they were trying to be a rock band playing a rock show (and one was opening for Maiden). Part of it is because I have a wider frame of reference, having grown up seeing shows in the 80's which are a completely different concept. I won't hold that against them, although I'll point out that Portnoy damn sure understood the difference and shared my nostalgia. But part of it is that it's simply not what the band, nor its fans, want to do. They want the albums recreated as accurately as possible. Fun is secondary to that goal, and it shows in the band's energy, or lack thereof. A lack of energy from both the band and the fans. It's very rare for me to get a rock show vibe when going to see them, milling around in the concourse or lobby. The atmosphere tends to be as sterile as the show itself.

Contrast that with a WD show, or even the Shattered Fortress gig last month. I suspect people who saw both (I won't see DT until the last night, assuming they make it that far) would attest to it being a very different sort of show. A different atmosphere. Venues also play a big role in this. Cramming a thousand people into Irving Plaza is going to create a different experience than 1000 folks lounging about a 3500 seat theater.

In the end this is all going to be a subjective thing, and there's no way I'll change the minds of DT fans. That's impossible under any circumstances. I'm just seeing a distinction that lies right on the line of what I like and don't like. DT has always been on the bad side of that, and now they're way out on the outer fringes. SoA will be on the good side of that line, and make a double billing (the OP that I'm referring to) unworkable. Like I said, two very different ideas of what a rock concert should be.

I have seen DT about 14 times going back to 1994 on the Awake tour. For me the vibe changed with the venues. When it was general admission in a smaller venue like DT used to play it had more of a rock concert feel. Or at least a more intimate one. Once they became more successful and up until The Astonishing tour where I saw them last, it still felt like a rock concert much like Rush but it lost a bit of it's intimate feel. I don't think MP brought that at all, I think it's the venues. When I last saw DT with MP on the Black Clouds tour, it did not feel any more Rock and Roll than the self titled Tour . As a matter of fact it was more fun, the band seemed more relaxed and enjoying themselves more. It felt more like a band and less like the Mike Portnoy and his backing band show. The Astonishing Tour did not have a rock concert feel per se because it was more of a show like Jesus Christ Super Star.

I agree that the SOA as well as I am sure the Shattered Fortress will have a more intimate feel.  I doubt my post will change the mind of any loyal MP fan though just like your post wont change the mind of any DT fans.

I think this is an interesting topic. I think Bill is dead on with the venue size.  I will admit to not having seen shows in the 80s.  However, I've seen rock bands, and I've seen metal bands, and if we're using the rock umbrella to include all of the above, I certainly think a DT show qualifies. 

However - I don't know what it was like at the shows you (El Barto) are referring to.  I only know what it was like at shows I've seen, which includes Iron Maiden, Priest, Aerosmith, and Metallica.  And Sabbath. And Heaven and Hell.   And Dio.  And of course Rush.  And I don't feel that DT shows are all that much different than any of those experiences.  In fact, besides Dio, I'd say a lot of DT shows that I've attended have been more energetic (from a crowd point of view - would never say that anyone can keep up with Bruce Dickinson) because the venues are smaller.  At all of the bigger shows, you've got diehards mixed in with people who are just there to socialize, drink beer, and listen to some music in the background.  At the DT and Dio shows, you do have some of those people, but the crowd felt more energetic and more engaged as a whole.  The atmosphere at the DT show in Toronto the other night was way more electric than it was for Maiden, for example, and about the same as the Shattered Fortress show.  But this isn't a criticism of Maiden - I think the smaller the venue, the more charged the atmosphere.  (Most of the time, of course there are exceptions). 

The Astonishing aside, because it was a different experience, I just don't see the difference between what DT does and the other bands I've mentioned.  I don't know what you're looking for in a show that doesn't happen at DT, Maiden, Priest, Dio, etc shows.  Then again - maybe it's just perspective, the people you are with, your position in the crowd.  Or maybe those shows in the 80s were somehow totally different.

[El Barto]

Re: DT & SoA together
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 08:11:53 PM »
Quote from: Kattelox on November 13, 2017, 07:02:44 PM

    I disagree strongly with that last sentence, El Barto - the boys have a blast on stage and it's a great fun time. 


Sometimes you're horribly wrong (like about Scarred) but this is spot on.    The Astonishing tour was a bit of an anomaly, but this I&W tour is very much a "rock concert."  As was the DT12 tour.

I've seen DT upwards of 15 times, both in small venues and big ones, and only twice did I get the sense that they were trying to be a rock band playing a rock show (and one was opening for Maiden). Part of it is because I have a wider frame of reference, having grown up seeing shows in the 80's which are a completely different concept. I won't hold that against them, although I'll point out that Portnoy damn sure understood the difference and shared my nostalgia. But part of it is that it's simply not what the band, nor its fans, want to do. They want the albums recreated as accurately as possible. Fun is secondary to that goal, and it shows in the band's energy, or lack thereof. A lack of energy from both the band and the fans. It's very rare for me to get a rock show vibe when going to see them, milling around in the concourse or lobby. The atmosphere tends to be as sterile as the show itself.

Contrast that with a WD show, or even the Shattered Fortress gig last month. I suspect people who saw both (I won't see DT until the last night, assuming they make it that far) would attest to it being a very different sort of show. A different atmosphere. Venues also play a big role in this. Cramming a thousand people into Irving Plaza is going to create a different experience than 1000 folks lounging about a 3500 seat theater.

In the end this is all going to be a subjective thing, and there's no way I'll change the minds of DT fans. That's impossible under any circumstances. I'm just seeing a distinction that lies right on the line of what I like and don't like. DT has always been on the bad side of that, and now they're way out on the outer fringes. SoA will be on the good side of that line, and make a double billing (the OP that I'm referring to) unworkable. Like I said, two very different ideas of what a rock concert should be.

I have seen DT about 14 times going back to 1994 on the Awake tour. For me the vibe changed with the venues. When it was general admission in a smaller venue like DT used to play it had more of a rock concert feel. Or at least a more intimate one. Once they became more successful and up until The Astonishing tour where I saw them last, it still felt like a rock concert much like Rush but it lost a bit of it's intimate feel. I don't think MP brought that at all, I think it's the venues. When I last saw DT with MP on the Black Clouds tour, it did not feel any more Rock and Roll than the self titled Tour . As a matter of fact it was more fun, the band seemed more relaxed and enjoying themselves more. It felt more like a band and less like the Mike Portnoy and his backing band show. The Astonishing Tour did not have a rock concert feel per se because it was more of a show like Jesus Christ Super Star.

I agree that the SOA as well as I am sure the Shattered Fortress will have a more intimate feel.  I doubt my post will change the mind of any loyal MP fan though just like your post wont change the mind of any DT fans.

I definitely agree about the venues, but I wouldn't call it a lack of intimacy. I might even consider the opposite, in fact. With the smaller, SRO venues, there's a liveliness to them. You feel like you're part of the experience, and in some ways you are. The band gets energy from the crowd. The crowd gets energy from the band. Faraday smiles. At modern DT shows the audience observes and nothing else. I've seen DT from the front row a couple of times, and it never felt intimate at all to me. There's just no connection.

And I'm not trying to say that this change was a result of MP's departure. To that I would only say that he brought a few things to mitigate the sterility. I think it's fair to say that he was, at the very least, a co-frontman. Quite frankly, I've always felt that's something DT needs. I also think the click and the static setlists take away a great deal of the liveness. You know you're not getting a one-off performance. Everybody gets the exact same performance, and to me that's a great loss.

[El Barto]

--SNIP--
I think this is an interesting topic. I think Bill is dead on with the venue size.  I will admit to not having seen shows in the 80s.  However, I've seen rock bands, and I've seen metal bands, and if we're using the rock umbrella to include all of the above, I certainly think a DT show qualifies. 

However - I don't know what it was like at the shows you (El Barto) are referring to.  I only know what it was like at shows I've seen, which includes Iron Maiden, Priest, Aerosmith, and Metallica.  And Sabbath. And Heaven and Hell.   And Dio.  And of course Rush.  And I don't feel that DT shows are all that much different than any of those experiences.  In fact, besides Dio, I'd say a lot of DT shows that I've attended have been more energetic (from a crowd point of view - would never say that anyone can keep up with Bruce Dickinson) because the venues are smaller.  At all of the bigger shows, you've got diehards mixed in with people who are just there to socialize, drink beer, and listen to some music in the background.  At the DT and Dio shows, you do have some of those people, but the crowd felt more energetic and more engaged as a whole.  The atmosphere at the DT show in Toronto the other night was way more electric than it was for Maiden, for example, and about the same as the Shattered Fortress show.  But this isn't a criticism of Maiden - I think the smaller the venue, the more charged the atmosphere.  (Most of the time, of course there are exceptions). 

The Astonishing aside, because it was a different experience, I just don't see the difference between what DT does and the other bands I've mentioned.  I don't know what you're looking for in a show that doesn't happen at DT, Maiden, Priest, Dio, etc shows.  Then again - maybe it's just perspective, the people you are with, your position in the crowd.  Or maybe those shows in the 80s were somehow totally different.

And I haven't seen DT on the road as much as other bands, so my experience is somewhat limited to Texas, aside from a couple of NYC/CT shows. What I can tell you is that most often what I see is music nerds at their shows. Rush is a good example because there are generations of fans there. You've got the prog-nerds, and you've got the fogies that grew up on Rush. At a DT show I'm a not-so respected elder.  Since I'm a firm believer that the folk who go to a show to party and hang out are an integral part of the rock concert experience, that makes a big difference.

And so as not to make this all about DT/Portnoy/SoA, this is a phenomenon I've been bothered by for quite some time and applies to most bands. You mention Metallica and they're a prime example. That's more of a commercial enterprise than a rock concert, and it's part of the reason I've taken to traveling to Mexico to see shows. There's still a certain aspect of lawlessness down there.

Part of my bitch is being an old fuck and waxing nostalgic. Part of it is that I think we've lost something very good and unique with the experience. We've certainly gained some things; excellent sound and lighting, big screens for the folk in nosebleed. We've lost an atmosphere that was something quite wonderful, though. DT just happens to demonstrate this better than most.

[Lethean]

Re: DT & SoA together
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2017, 08:11:53 PM »
Quote from: Kattelox on November 13, 2017, 07:02:44 PM

    I disagree strongly with that last sentence, El Barto - the boys have a blast on stage and it's a great fun time. 


Sometimes you're horribly wrong (like about Scarred) but this is spot on.    The Astonishing tour was a bit of an anomaly, but this I&W tour is very much a "rock concert."  As was the DT12 tour.

I've seen DT upwards of 15 times, both in small venues and big ones, and only twice did I get the sense that they were trying to be a rock band playing a rock show (and one was opening for Maiden). Part of it is because I have a wider frame of reference, having grown up seeing shows in the 80's which are a completely different concept. I won't hold that against them, although I'll point out that Portnoy damn sure understood the difference and shared my nostalgia. But part of it is that it's simply not what the band, nor its fans, want to do. They want the albums recreated as accurately as possible. Fun is secondary to that goal, and it shows in the band's energy, or lack thereof. A lack of energy from both the band and the fans. It's very rare for me to get a rock show vibe when going to see them, milling around in the concourse or lobby. The atmosphere tends to be as sterile as the show itself.

Contrast that with a WD show, or even the Shattered Fortress gig last month. I suspect people who saw both (I won't see DT until the last night, assuming they make it that far) would attest to it being a very different sort of show. A different atmosphere. Venues also play a big role in this. Cramming a thousand people into Irving Plaza is going to create a different experience than 1000 folks lounging about a 3500 seat theater.

In the end this is all going to be a subjective thing, and there's no way I'll change the minds of DT fans. That's impossible under any circumstances. I'm just seeing a distinction that lies right on the line of what I like and don't like. DT has always been on the bad side of that, and now they're way out on the outer fringes. SoA will be on the good side of that line, and make a double billing (the OP that I'm referring to) unworkable. Like I said, two very different ideas of what a rock concert should be.

I have seen DT about 14 times going back to 1994 on the Awake tour. For me the vibe changed with the venues. When it was general admission in a smaller venue like DT used to play it had more of a rock concert feel. Or at least a more intimate one. Once they became more successful and up until The Astonishing tour where I saw them last, it still felt like a rock concert much like Rush but it lost a bit of it's intimate feel. I don't think MP brought that at all, I think it's the venues. When I last saw DT with MP on the Black Clouds tour, it did not feel any more Rock and Roll than the self titled Tour . As a matter of fact it was more fun, the band seemed more relaxed and enjoying themselves more. It felt more like a band and less like the Mike Portnoy and his backing band show. The Astonishing Tour did not have a rock concert feel per se because it was more of a show like Jesus Christ Super Star.

I agree that the SOA as well as I am sure the Shattered Fortress will have a more intimate feel.  I doubt my post will change the mind of any loyal MP fan though just like your post wont change the mind of any DT fans.

I definitely agree about the venues, but I wouldn't call it a lack of intimacy. I might even consider the opposite, in fact. With the smaller, SRO venues, there's a liveliness to them. You feel like you're part of the experience, and in some ways you are. The band gets energy from the crowd. The crowd gets energy from the band. Faraday smiles. At modern DT shows the audience observes and nothing else. I've seen DT from the front row a couple of times, and it never felt intimate at all to me. There's just no connection.

I couldn't disagree more strongly here.  When I'm close up, I find there's a connection with everyone except for JM (and I have no problem with JM just being himself).  If you're close enough to the rest of them, they engage with various people in the audience throughout the show.  I completely agree with the cycle of energy being a cool thing, but I think that totally happens at DT shows.  (Just as it does at Rush shows).

And I'm not trying to say that this change was a result of MP's departure. To that I would only say that he brought a few things to mitigate the sterility. I think it's fair to say that he was, at the very least, a co-frontman. Quite frankly, I've always felt that's something DT needs. I also think the click and the static setlists take away a great deal of the liveness. You know you're not getting a one-off performance. Everybody gets the exact same performance, and to me that's a great loss.

I'd love for them to bring back the rotating setlists.  It's the one thing from the MP era that I really miss a lot.  So I won't argue with you there.  However, I always found that no two Rush shows were the same, even when the setlist was the same or only changed by 1 or 2 songs, and I feel that way with DT as well.  There's always something different about each show that I remember.

[Stadler]

I struggled with how to put it into words, and I can't really, except to say that I know exactly what el Barto is talking about.   My first show was in 1982, in a hockey arena, and I saw most of the bigger bands of the day in similar sized places.    There was a vibe to those shows.   People looking to be seen, not in a Hollywood way, but in a party sort of way.  Beers in the parking lot.   Buying tickets for face value in the parking lot and even if it was a scalper it was more organic than some college douche making $100 hawking tix for "Corporate Ticket Express, LLC"^TM.   First Kiss show, 1983, watching a girl throw her bra at Gene.  Then her shoes.   Then her panties (watching her try to get them off - thus her throwing the shoes - was worth the price of admission right there).   Then her attempt at her shirt (the guy with her put the kibosh on that), which led to her throwing her earrings, then passing out in the front row.    Not that drunken debauchery is necessary, but you don't get the corporate types who shelled out $500 for front row doing that.   Even the people in the pit, like at Maiden this past summer in Brooklyn, were more... predatory, like they were entitled to be there.

I saw the Black Clouds tour, and it was a theater and it was a very disciplined crowd.  There was nothing dangerous about it (in fact, I saw Marlene, Max and Melody walking to their seats, Max sporting an impressive set of shooting headphones for ear protection).  I can remember seeing Dio and Twisted Sister in '84 from way back on the floor, and during Dio watching the silouettes of chairs flying back and forth.    It wasn't a fight per se, and it wasn't really chaos, but it was sort of reckless. 

I don't know; these examples don't do the point justice, and I feel like they will be easily ripped apart, but it's the vibe that goes around it, not the actual events. 

[SwedishGoose]

Oh... you know Dream Theater has not had any audience interaction since MP left..... or have they?

The concerts I go to there is a marked increase in audience interaction from the band.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/swedishgoose/12717309784/in/album-72157641378331524/   

What is lacking.... let's see the Drummer does not spit and hit his head....

From where I am standing, usually close to the stage, I see a hapoier band where espescially the bassist and the drummer seem to gel much better than before. I see more interaction between the members if the band and between them and the sudience.
There is also a quite lively crowd... singing, headbanging, jumping up and down etc...

The Shattered Fortress audience was much less lively (not me and my friend though) at least until MP came out on stage, gave me and my friend a stick each and begged everyone to follow our example and stand.

The venue definitely has to do with it... Shattered Fortress was in a nice cozy Theater with velvet chairs while DT normally plays for a standing audience.

[Lethean]

--SNIP--
I think this is an interesting topic. I think Bill is dead on with the venue size.  I will admit to not having seen shows in the 80s.  However, I've seen rock bands, and I've seen metal bands, and if we're using the rock umbrella to include all of the above, I certainly think a DT show qualifies. 

However - I don't know what it was like at the shows you (El Barto) are referring to.  I only know what it was like at shows I've seen, which includes Iron Maiden, Priest, Aerosmith, and Metallica.  And Sabbath. And Heaven and Hell.   And Dio.  And of course Rush.  And I don't feel that DT shows are all that much different than any of those experiences.  In fact, besides Dio, I'd say a lot of DT shows that I've attended have been more energetic (from a crowd point of view - would never say that anyone can keep up with Bruce Dickinson) because the venues are smaller.  At all of the bigger shows, you've got diehards mixed in with people who are just there to socialize, drink beer, and listen to some music in the background.  At the DT and Dio shows, you do have some of those people, but the crowd felt more energetic and more engaged as a whole.  The atmosphere at the DT show in Toronto the other night was way more electric than it was for Maiden, for example, and about the same as the Shattered Fortress show.  But this isn't a criticism of Maiden - I think the smaller the venue, the more charged the atmosphere.  (Most of the time, of course there are exceptions). 

The Astonishing aside, because it was a different experience, I just don't see the difference between what DT does and the other bands I've mentioned.  I don't know what you're looking for in a show that doesn't happen at DT, Maiden, Priest, Dio, etc shows.  Then again - maybe it's just perspective, the people you are with, your position in the crowd.  Or maybe those shows in the 80s were somehow totally different.

And I haven't seen DT on the road as much as other bands, so my experience is somewhat limited to Texas, aside from a couple of NYC/CT shows. What I can tell you is that most often what I see is music nerds at their shows. Rush is a good example because there are generations of fans there. You've got the prog-nerds, and you've got the fogies that grew up on Rush. At a DT show I'm a not-so respected elder.  Since I'm a firm believer that the folk who go to a show to party and hang out are an integral part of the rock concert experience, that makes a big difference.

And so as not to make this all about DT/Portnoy/SoA, this is a phenomenon I've been bothered by for quite some time and applies to most bands. You mention Metallica and they're a prime example. That's more of a commercial enterprise than a rock concert, and it's part of the reason I've taken to traveling to Mexico to see shows. There's still a certain aspect of lawlessness down there.

Part of my bitch is being an old fuck and waxing nostalgic. Part of it is that I think we've lost something very good and unique with the experience. We've certainly gained some things; excellent sound and lighting, big screens for the folk in nosebleed. We've lost an atmosphere that was something quite wonderful, though. DT just happens to demonstrate this better than most.

See to me, the Rush show experience is very much like the DT show experience, except that with Rush it's on a bigger scale.  You have people of all ages at both shows.  You have the people who can air drum everything (and probably correctly), you have the people who want to chit chat all night long, you have the people who cross their arms and stand still, the people who sing along and clap and chant, etc, and the people who spill their beer all over the place.    There are more of the beer spillers at Rush shows, but you find them at the DT shows too.  But I will agree with you that probably a larger percentage of DT fans are just there to watch the show, rather than party.  I would say more Rush fans are like that than Maiden fans, and etc.  I just don't find it to be such a huge difference that really makes one show sterile and the others not. 

It could be because of me and my way of taking in a show.  I will totally confess that I've never gone to a concert looking for lawlessness.    I like making a connection with the band and fans of the band, and it works for me, but maybe someone else would be bored.

[King Postwhore]

I think everybody is going off the rails with what El Barto is saying.  He's saying would trade the newer stages and light shows and the structured sets for the old days where there was minimal lights and stage props but rotating sets.  That felt more personal to him.

I think with any band that has longevity like this, the original fans go through this.

[Lethean]

I struggled with how to put it into words, and I can't really, except to say that I know exactly what el Barto is talking about.   My first show was in 1982, in a hockey arena, and I saw most of the bigger bands of the day in similar sized places.    There was a vibe to those shows.   People looking to be seen, not in a Hollywood way, but in a party sort of way.  Beers in the parking lot.   Buying tickets for face value in the parking lot and even if it was a scalper it was more organic than some college douche making $100 hawking tix for "Corporate Ticket Express, LLC"^TM.   First Kiss show, 1983, watching a girl throw her bra at Gene.  Then her shoes.   Then her panties (watching her try to get them off - thus her throwing the shoes - was worth the price of admission right there).   Then her attempt at her shirt (the guy with her put the kibosh on that), which led to her throwing her earrings, then passing out in the front row.    Not that drunken debauchery is necessary, but you don't get the corporate types who shelled out $500 for front row doing that.   Even the people in the pit, like at Maiden this past summer in Brooklyn, were more... predatory, like they were entitled to be there.

I saw the Black Clouds tour, and it was a theater and it was a very disciplined crowd.  There was nothing dangerous about it (in fact, I saw Marlene, Max and Melody walking to their seats, Max sporting an impressive set of shooting headphones for ear protection).  I can remember seeing Dio and Twisted Sister in '84 from way back on the floor, and during Dio watching the silouettes of chairs flying back and forth.    It wasn't a fight per se, and it wasn't really chaos, but it was sort of reckless. 

I don't know; these examples don't do the point justice, and I feel like they will be easily ripped apart, but it's the vibe that goes around it, not the actual events.

I'm not going to rip it apart.  I will say that I don't think this has anything to do with DT - it seems to be a general thing.  I was lucky enough to see Dio a few times, and each time it was a "normal" concert experience.  A bit of a pit broke out at one show, but that happened at a DT GA show too.  It just seems crazy to me that the Dio shows I saw wouldn't be considered a "rock concert" even though there was no lawlessness, no chairs being thrown, no one taking off their bra.  I suppose I can get saying "shows just aren't like the used to be."  If that's how they used to be - I guess I'm glad.    Maybe that makes me a music nerd even though I don't actually play an instrument, but I just want to go to the show to experience live music - the music itself - and the feelings that go along with it - adrenaline rush/euphoria/etc.

[King Postwhore]

Funny thing now is I love small venues but the bands I want to see go on so late.  I have to take the next day off.  Damn you old age.

[TAC]

Funny thing now is I love small venues but the bands I want to see go on so late.  I have to take the next day off.  Damn you old age.

I agree. It rules out a lot of shows. School nights etc..  Plus I'm not going out solo to a club until 1:00am. That really doesn't jive with the Mrs.   

But I have given her a 10 month notice on Helloween.

[Nachtmerrie]

I think in the end it all depends on the venues. When I go to a concert I want to stand with a beer in my hand instead of being forced to sit. Most of the venues here in The Netherlands are only 'general admission' which adds to the atmosphere from my point of view.

The only time I had to sit during the show was at the TA show and while I understand DT chose different venues for that specific tour I found it be pretty boring.

[MirrorMask]

I didn't mind to sit down for The Astonishing, but generally, I never ever understood why they would let Dream Theater play in theaters with people sitting. Every time I was seeing news of DT shows in theaters over there in the USA, for me that's a cultural difference as big as the use of miles and the weird date format. A rock / metal show has to be with everyone standing and free to go wild, as long as they don't annoy the person next to them.

[PetFish]

It's also the city/location.

Vancouver crowds are the suck and the city just overall blows for concerts. Even most major/popular shows skip us.  They'll start out east like Toronto, then work their way west to Calgary and Edmonton, then skip Vancouver and go down to Seattle.

I've never personally attended a show in Europe or South America but these are the places that seem to have the most enthusiastic crowds with their own energy that bands can also feed off of.

So it's not just the bands and it isn't fair to put the blame solely on them for a lack of "energy" but I will also say that, specifically about Dream Theater, the music they play isn't exactly stage-shenanigans friendly and requires a different "energy" to be able to play.  If you want to say "well, MP had energy", then I can agree with that but it was really just him while the other guys had to maintain concentration most of the time.

[SwedishGoose]

The Astonishing is the only DT show that had seated arrangment in Sweden.
Didn't mind sitting for TA as that was something else but generally I prefer standing up close to the stage for any band.

[Stadler]

I'm not going to rip it apart.  I will say that I don't think this has anything to do with DT - it seems to be a general thing.  I was lucky enough to see Dio a few times, and each time it was a "normal" concert experience.  A bit of a pit broke out at one show, but that happened at a DT GA show too.  It just seems crazy to me that the Dio shows I saw wouldn't be considered a "rock concert" even though there was no lawlessness, no chairs being thrown, no one taking off their bra.  I suppose I can get saying "shows just aren't like the used to be."  If that's how they used to be - I guess I'm glad.    Maybe that makes me a music nerd even though I don't actually play an instrument, but I just want to go to the show to experience live music - the music itself - and the feelings that go along with it - adrenaline rush/euphoria/etc.

It's not JUST lawlessness though, and truth be told, we'd get on grandly at a show.  I'm not looking for drunken naked women, or to being hit by a chair.   But there was a sort of sense of...  "I can't get this from my living room".   Or "this is a little different than the typical night out with the guys".    I'm trying not to use the word "corporate" - especially after the only two photos of me here on this site are of me in a blue collared shirt at the Shattered Fortress show and the Maiden show (it's my lucky shirt!) - but that's as close as I can get.   Put another way, shows today seem more scripted and choreographed, and that includes the lead up to the show and the parts around the show.   We parked where we could.  There would always be some dude with a cooler selling luke warm beers in the stairwell to New Haven Coliseum.   The only "security" was a pimply dude taking your ticket (who knew not to rip it like it was toilet paper, but FOLLOW THE CREASE!) and a heavy chick with zero makeup that didn't let you on the floor unless you had a floor ticket (you had the run of the building back then, but the floor was hallowed, sacred ground).   T-shirts were cash only - and it was just that: t0shirts, programs, pins and bandannas, no exceptions, and there weren't 15 people standing there debating if they were getting the hoodie or the beer couzy along with their t-shirt and autographed condom packs.  I don't remember there being food at the Coliseum, though there was at the Hartford Civic Center (and the added bonus of, I kid you not, a line in one of the men's rooms where a local stripper/prostitute set up shop in one of the stalls).    There were no reserved seats, no catered seats, no VIP anything (except, again, the strip bar that was across the highway in Hartford, and named "VIP") and no wristbands.  You could, if you wanted, go on the floor, and collect tickets then go up to your buddies in the 200's and give them the tickets and all of you would march right back down to the floor, except we didn't do that because it wasn't cool to the people that were already there.    There were no computer lights; you'd know the show was about to start when the guys (anywhere from 2 to 4, usually) would climb up the rope ladders to man the spotlights in the lighting rig.   

I'm like King; I go to as many smaller club shows as I can, because you still get this vibe in some places.  Gene Simmons at the Trocadero was like that.  I waltzed right up to the stage, just about, and next thing you know, I'm ON stage, singing "I Love It Loud" right next to my childhood hero.   

[ariich]

I love DT, and I love DT's live shows. But they definitely do not have anywhere close to the energy/rock-show-vibe that bands like Metallica, Maiden, etc. have. Muse are one of the best in that regard too. I understand the point about intimacy and venue size, but those bands sell out stadiums and still put on a hugely energetic show.

That's not a criticism of DT. DT's music is a lot more technically complex and intricate than those bands, and naturally lends itself less easily to lots of running and jumping around. If they did too much of it, the performances would get messy (see: Metallica). Personally, I loved the balance between the two that they used to have. For me, the shows are too carefully crafted now, and they lack the spontaneity they used to. Performances are tighter (incredibly so) and so the gigs are still genuinely great, but there isn't the same excitement as there was when you didn't know basically exactly what was going to happen.

As a live band, I can definitely see SOA being more my thing, even if I find the music less exciting (though still great) than most of DT's.

[The Walrus]

The small to midsize venues rule. I don't like Arch Enemy or Trivium but I saw them Sunday at a venue that holds a few hundred people and it was awesome. That connection between the fans and band is electric, I love being close to the stage, interacting with the musicians, watching the band feed on the energy of the passionate fans that are there... as much as I love Dream Theater's shows, those will always be my favorite. Truth be told those small stages are way more fun to watch a band play on than a big stage with all this space between the musicians.

So in a way I'm sure that'll work in Sons's favor, a lot of people will enjoy that, and that's really cool.

[ariich]

The small to midsize venues rule. I don't like Arch Enemy or Trivium but I saw them Sunday at a venue that holds a few hundred people and it was awesome. That connection between the fans and band is electric, I love being close to the stage, interacting with the musicians, watching the band feed on the energy of the passionate fans that are there... as much as I love Dream Theater's shows, those will always be my favorite. Truth be told those small stages are way more fun to watch a band play on than a big stage with all this space between the musicians.

For me, it depends. In a big venue with a big stage, it needs an elaborate show to make it work. Muse do that awesomely. Pink Floyd were the legends of that back in their day. If it's basically just the band playing, then I agree, it pales in comparison to a smaller, intimate venue.

[The Walrus]

The small to midsize venues rule. I don't like Arch Enemy or Trivium but I saw them Sunday at a venue that holds a few hundred people and it was awesome. That connection between the fans and band is electric, I love being close to the stage, interacting with the musicians, watching the band feed on the energy of the passionate fans that are there... as much as I love Dream Theater's shows, those will always be my favorite. Truth be told those small stages are way more fun to watch a band play on than a big stage with all this space between the musicians.

For me, it depends. In a big venue with a big stage, it needs an elaborate show to make it work. Muse do that awesomely. Pink Floyd were the legends of that back in their day. If it's basically just the band playing, then I agree, it pales in comparison to a smaller, intimate venue.

Oh yeah, if you have the light show to go with it, a big stage is still awesome, I just prefer the intimacy of small venues. The lights at DT have been fantastic in my experience.. I'd see Tool just for the light show too.

[El Barto]

Several people have connected DT's stage presence with the demanding nature of what they do, and that's a very valid point. However, I think there can be a sweet-spot. I'd trade the occasional clam for a bit more liveliness. Petrucci is never going to be Angus Young. I get that. He doesn't have to be Robert Fripp, though. However, I think they (most likely correctly) think that their fans would be mortified by such a thing. I think that contributes to the overly strict structure of everything. Everything has to be precisely the same as it was before and will be tomorrow. That's just not what I go in for.

This is an oddball thing to throw out, but a subtle example is the guy that used to run the lights for DT. I sat right behind FOH at their Dallas show with Maiden. As others have no doubt noticed, that guy was a hoot to watch. Unlike JP, he might as well have been Angus Young working the lights, and when he really did a song right he reacted like he just hit the game winning home run. Dude was clearly a big fan of DT and it showed in his work. By contrast Maiden came on and their LD's job was to hit start before every song, then kick back and watch. DT is now that band. Organic things like lights that might be ever so slightly off, or a song that gets played faster or harder than expected, help contribute to the feeling of it being a concert rather than a strict reproduction.

There's been tons of discussion about DT and backing vocals. Another example. I'd rather have sloppy vocals than pre-recorded, pristine VOX coming from nowhere. Backing VOX are a huge component of what makes a concert, and they largely abandon it for the sake of sameness. Again, it contributes to the general sterility I see in their live shows.

[SwedishGoose]

There is soo much in Stsdlers post that I remember but not miss in the least...
And for this bit here I would be royally pissed... if I go to the toilet at a concert I want to get out as quick as possible... one stall taken like that would make one less for all of us other to go to...

 

(and the added bonus of, I kid you not, a line in one of the men's rooms where a local stripper/prostitute set up shop in one of the stalls).   

About the only thing I agree with you is that I don't like the VIP seating and/or like with DT on the Images & Words and beyond tour golden circle (VIP standing) where you had to pay extra to get to the front of the stage as it was sealed of... (only time I have seen that so far though).

[Lethean]

I love DT, and I love DT's live shows. But they definitely do not have anywhere close to the energy/rock-show-vibe that bands like Metallica, Maiden, etc. have. Muse are one of the best in that regard too. I understand the point about intimacy and venue size, but those bands sell out stadiums and still put on a hugely energetic show.

I disagree here, but I get that it's just different perspectives.  Maiden does indeed put on a very energetic show.  I just haven't felt that the energy of the crowd is very high, or all that different from a DT show.  I might not be explaining myself well; to me it just doesn't feel like "Maiden - rock show, high energy" and "DT - boring, the crowd is dead, etc."  The vibe of the crowd (to me) is usually pretty intense at a DT show.  I'm not at all criticizing Maiden.

[Lethean]

There's been tons of discussion about DT and backing vocals. Another example. I'd rather have sloppy vocals than pre-recorded, pristine VOX coming from nowhere. Backing VOX are a huge component of what makes a concert, and they largely abandon it for the sake of sameness. Again, it contributes to the general sterility I see in their live shows.

I get what you're saying... and I generally didn't fault DT for their backing vocals in the past.  They were trying their best, though I do think some of the backing vocals should have been turned wayyy down.  My displeasure with the backing vocals was on the albums - I thought JP's were mostly fine, really disliked MP's, but either way would have greatly preferred just to James on the album.  Live.... I don't care so much either way.  Maybe it's because I'm such a huge Rush fan; they always piped in the backing vocals but their shows never felt sterile to me.  And if DT wants to pipe them in, it's fine by me.  I don't need for the show to be perfect, if they have bad backing vocals I'd look past it, but I don't mind their lack either.

[bosk1]

Several people have connected DT's stage presence with the demanding nature of what they do, and that's a very valid point. However, I think there can be a sweet-spot. I'd trade the occasional clam for a bit more liveliness. Petrucci is never going to be Angus Young. I get that. He doesn't have to be Robert Fripp, though. However, I think they (most likely correctly) think that their fans would be mortified by such a thing. I think that contributes to the overly strict structure of everything. Everything has to be precisely the same as it was before and will be tomorrow.

You are dead on.  JP has pretty much told me that very thing.  And while they would love more crowd energy than what they get in the typical U.S. city, especially on the west coast, they aren't going to get anything different precisely because of the precise and low-key vibe being given off from on the stage.  The first leg of the ADTOE tour is very telling in that regard.  When Trivium was onstage as the opener, you had a full-on pit on the floor when I saw them in S.F.  When that set was over, the Trivium fans cleared out of the floor area, it filled in with DT fans, and you had the typical subdued DT crowd.  I'm not criticizing the crowd.  Just saying, it was two completely different vibes at the same show.

There is soo much in Stsdlers post that I remember but not miss in the least...

Yeah, same here.  If Stadler's posts were meant to be sales pitches, they completely failed to make me a customer.    Everything he posted could go into a post about "turnoffs from '80s shows."  There are a lot of things I loved about shows back then, but nothing in Stadler's posts would make that list.

[bill1971]

I'm not going to rip it apart.  I will say that I don't think this has anything to do with DT - it seems to be a general thing.  I was lucky enough to see Dio a few times, and each time it was a "normal" concert experience.  A bit of a pit broke out at one show, but that happened at a DT GA show too.  It just seems crazy to me that the Dio shows I saw wouldn't be considered a "rock concert" even though there was no lawlessness, no chairs being thrown, no one taking off their bra.  I suppose I can get saying "shows just aren't like the used to be."  If that's how they used to be - I guess I'm glad.    Maybe that makes me a music nerd even though I don't actually play an instrument, but I just want to go to the show to experience live music - the music itself - and the feelings that go along with it - adrenaline rush/euphoria/etc.

It's not JUST lawlessness though, and truth be told, we'd get on grandly at a show.  I'm not looking for drunken naked women, or to being hit by a chair.   But there was a sort of sense of...  "I can't get this from my living room".   Or "this is a little different than the typical night out with the guys".    I'm trying not to use the word "corporate" - especially after the only two photos of me here on this site are of me in a blue collared shirt at the Shattered Fortress show and the Maiden show (it's my lucky shirt!) - but that's as close as I can get.   Put another way, shows today seem more scripted and choreographed, and that includes the lead up to the show and the parts around the show.   We parked where we could.  There would always be some dude with a cooler selling luke warm beers in the stairwell to New Haven Coliseum.   The only "security" was a pimply dude taking your ticket (who knew not to rip it like it was toilet paper, but FOLLOW THE CREASE!) and a heavy chick with zero makeup that didn't let you on the floor unless you had a floor ticket (you had the run of the building back then, but the floor was hallowed, sacred ground).   T-shirts were cash only - and it was just that: t0shirts, programs, pins and bandannas, no exceptions, and there weren't 15 people standing there debating if they were getting the hoodie or the beer couzy along with their t-shirt and autographed condom packs.  I don't remember there being food at the Coliseum, though there was at the Hartford Civic Center (and the added bonus of, I kid you not, a line in one of the men's rooms where a local stripper/prostitute set up shop in one of the stalls).    There were no reserved seats, no catered seats, no VIP anything (except, again, the strip bar that was across the highway in Hartford, and named "VIP") and no wristbands.  You could, if you wanted, go on the floor, and collect tickets then go up to your buddies in the 200's and give them the tickets and all of you would march right back down to the floor, except we didn't do that because it wasn't cool to the people that were already there.    There were no computer lights; you'd know the show was about to start when the guys (anywhere from 2 to 4, usually) would climb up the rope ladders to man the spotlights in the lighting rig.   

I'm like King; I go to as many smaller club shows as I can, because you still get this vibe in some places.  Gene Simmons at the Trocadero was like that.  I waltzed right up to the stage, just about, and next thing you know, I'm ON stage, singing "I Love It Loud" right next to my childhood hero.   

Sounds amazing.

[El Barto]

Yeah, same here.  If Stadler's posts were meant to be sales pitches, they completely failed to make me a customer.    Everything he posted could go into a post about "turnoffs from '80s shows."  There are a lot of things I loved about shows back then, but nothing in Stadler's posts would make that list.

And there are things from shows back then that I don't miss either. Being bludgeoned by a wall of 130dB un-EQed noise probably tops the list. What he described, and I certainly miss as well, contributed to a more festive atmosphere, though. That's what some of us pine for. It's not the debauchery per se, though I'm obviously a big, big fan, but the feeling that it was an event. It was something we all had in common and we all celebrated. Even if you're interest, for some strange reason, didn't include getting high in the parking lot and ogling slutty girls in fishnet stockings, you still wanted to be a part of the going's on in your own way. It was a sort of camaraderie. Nowadays it seems people just go to see a band perform their favorite song, or see some hoser sing a F#, and the atmosphere reflects that.

[bosk1]

I merged the two main SoA threads.  I realize that some of the discussion going on simultaneously may look a bit confusing.  But we also really had no need for two separate threads moving forward. 

[Hourglass Prison]

Oh THAT’S what happened.
I’m sitting here reading and next thing I know, it’s 20 pages ago lol

[ariich]

I love DT, and I love DT's live shows. But they definitely do not have anywhere close to the energy/rock-show-vibe that bands like Metallica, Maiden, etc. have. Muse are one of the best in that regard too. I understand the point about intimacy and venue size, but those bands sell out stadiums and still put on a hugely energetic show.

I disagree here, but I get that it's just different perspectives.  Maiden does indeed put on a very energetic show.  I just haven't felt that the energy of the crowd is very high, or all that different from a DT show.  I might not be explaining myself well; to me it just doesn't feel like "Maiden - rock show, high energy" and "DT - boring, the crowd is dead, etc."  The vibe of the crowd (to me) is usually pretty intense at a DT show.  I'm not at all criticizing Maiden.

To clarify, I'm not saying that DT shows are boring or that the crowd is dead. I'm sure with all bands it depends on the place. The DT shows I've been to, the crowd has been great. But there's a tangible difference. As a *complete generalisation*, at DT shows people are there (myself included) to pay attention to the music and the performance, whereas at Maiden/Metallica shows people are there to have a blast. Obviously that's entirely over-stating it, but that's the thrust of my experience in London and sometimes other parts of the UK.

[gzarruk]

Oh THAT’S what happened.
I’m sitting here reading and next thing I know, it’s 20 pages ago lol

Same here