Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[gzarruk]

However, the problem with many of Mike's projects (SoA is a prime example in that), is that it's obvious that it was a rushed, rough-and-ready effort. The songs are unoriginal and they're copy-pasted together, the lyircs are as generic as they get, Mike has his "bag of tricks" he randomly fills up the songs with. To me, it's obvious that the album would have benefited a lot if they had worked more on it (way more), especially since it's their first time playing together. The music has no real depth.

Nailed it.

[Kwyjibo]

I still think it's good but I don't know if it will have staying power. And I still think this is a lot of wasted opportunities, some more time spent composing, some more variety and you could have had a great disc.

[Mladen]

I remember finding out the first Flying Colors album was written in 10 days and I was immediately worried. I wasn't able to comprehend how in the world can musicians write music so quickly and be assured that they came up with fantastic music in such a short period of time. Then I listened to the album and loved it. It's odd. Sometimes music comes together very quickly, especially if there's good chemistry between musicians. There's no rule.

[Kwyjibo]

There is nothing inherently wrong when writing and recording an album in 10 days or even less.

The problem arises when I think the final product sounds rushed and I got that from the last Transatlantic record and even more so from Psychotic Symphony. But of course that is my personal perception, maybe I would still think it sounds rushed if they spend half a year on that record, and the flaws I'm hearing are the results of something else.

For instance God Of The Sun, while I like it, the different parts don't really fit together, so I would assume if this was given more work the transisitons would be better. But then Derek goes on record saying that this is the song he worked on the longest and this contradicts my ramblings.

But a lot of the record really sounds like something they can put together using their bag of tricks (admittedly a large bag) and therefore generic and rushed.

[MirrorMask]

I agree that it's not a general rule that an album written fast is bad; I like too the Flying Colors debut for example. But the general rule works both ways: just because it CAN happen to write amazing music in 10 days, it doesn't mean it ALWAYS happen.

Of course every musician has a right to write in the way he feels most comfortable with, but sometimes trying out different things - or trying to figure out if the music created on the fly actually works - could help the music a lot more.

Anyway I don't fault Mike for not wanting to play small clubs - but I hope too he doesn't get too much unrealistic expectations from this band. I think of the places where they could play in Italy - no way they'd play the big sport venue where DT and Iron Maiden play, they'd be lucky to get a venue that can have a smaller stage (when the venue is packed, they use the big stage for Helloween, Avantasia, Blind Guardian, Alice Cooper) where I've seen Shadow Gallery and Iced Earth. Otherwise they could get a slightly smaller venue, but very nice with a cool stage, where British Lion and Edguy played (just dropping names to give an idea of the capacity).

[The Walrus]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

[TAC]

WOW!

[The Walrus]

Del Fuvian bravado, Sherinianisms... Mike used to be one of my favorite musicians, why doesn't he stand up for the guy who sang his songs for 25 years??

[Nekov]

Well, for what I've read around here Mike's in no good terms with JLB, has refered to him a Prima Donna during an interview, not really mentioning him but we all got that he was talking about him, so it's no suprise to me that he's not standing up for him.

[SwedishGoose]

Mike did not stand up for James while he was in the band so I do not expect him to stand up for him now...

[emtee]

Having been such a huge fan of Mike for SO long - he inspired me to play better, loved the fans and went the extra mile - this is
honestly difficult for me. While he is not actually the one saying or 'liking' these types of comments he is not speaking out against
them in the name of juvenile behavior, therefore he is guilty by association. I truly don't want the end of his career to be sad
free fall into obscurity. I tried to look the other way multiple times during this saga but as the band moves forward they're not letting
this feud with DT go. So as of now I'm off the MP train. Not just SoA. I'm off the train all the way. If he decides to take the high road
and make this right I'll jump back on. Mike - if you're reading this, I really do respect and admire you, tremendously, but you're better than this. You need to rise above it.

[mikeyd23]

Mike did not stand up for James while he was in the band so I do not expect him to stand up for him now...

Exactly, MP's not going to stand up for an ex-band mate that he didn't stand up for when they were band mates.

As to the MP article on BM - he's in for a rude awakening if he doesn't want to play small clubs, I can't see this band playing anything bigger in most US markets. We'll see how long he lasts doing that. Honestly, (and they won't do this) they would be wise to try to get an opening slot for a bigger rock artist and get a steady, wide spread tour. I can't see MP doing that though.

As to the discussion about the album being written quickly - like others have said, there are no rules in song writing. Sometimes great albums are written quickly, sometimes great albums take time. The problem I, and many others, seem to have with the album is that to our ears it literally sounds rushed, like they didn't spend enough time on it. If others don't hear that, that's totally cool! But many do.

[Stadler]

On whether he ever has a desire to play "random basement" gigs:

Mike: "No. I hate that stuff. [Laughs] There's been a couple situations through the last few years where I was playing tiny little clubs — I did one with METAL ALLEGIANCE, and I did a bunch with ADRENALINE MOB — and honestly, I was miserable. [Laughs]."

To that, he says if you read it in that context it isn't bad - but that's exactly what it sounds like. How is he going to feel playing to clubs of a few hundred people during the SoA tour? He IS going to be miserable, he's a 50 year old world famous rock drummer going from arenas and opening for Maiden to this... Check those sales figures at the bottom... ouch.

EDIT: He even commented on the article himself! Mike... stop.... 

What are we considering "random basement gigs".  I never heard that term before.   But Metal Allegiance played Toad's Place, which while being a small club (700, tops) and pretty low budget, is hardly a "random basement gig".   The flippin' Stones played there, as did Dylan.   But the theater where I saw The Winery Dogs and Neal Morse, while much nicer, is still only 500 people. 

[The Walrus]

Having been such a huge fan of Mike for SO long - he inspired me to play better, loved the fans and went the extra mile - this is
honestly difficult for me. While he is not actually the one saying or 'liking' these types of comments he is not speaking out against
them in the name of juvenile behavior, therefore he is guilty by association. I truly don't want the end of his career to be sad
free fall into obscurity. I tried to look the other way multiple times during this saga but as the band moves forward they're not letting
this feud with DT go. So as of now I'm off the MP train. Not just SoA. I'm off the train all the way. If he decides to take the high road
and make this right I'll jump back on. Mike - if you're reading this, I really do respect and admire you, tremendously, but you're better than this. You need to rise above it.

Bingo... His ego is too big to allow him to apologize for anything other than giving 'blood, sweat, and tears for the fans.' To quote a deeper GnR cut... Sweetheart, don't make me laugh, you're gettin' too big for your pants and I think maybe you should cut out while you can.

[Madman Shepherd]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

This is funny because Mike even admitted that James and John Myung were especially hesitant when they wanted to kick Derek out. I don't doubt that Mike was closer with Derek than anybody else. They had very similar personalities. But by his own admission James and John really took a pause about the prospect. I vaguely remember a bootleg when they introduced Jordan as the new keyboardist and James said something along the lines of "and hopefully our last lineup change."  Kind of an odd thing to say but it showed James was pretty uncomfortable with it. Oh well I guess. James has been nominated for two Grammy's and plays to packed theaters every night. Doubtful SoA will even reach Winery Dogs success which was moderate at best.

[MirrorMask]

James wrote "hopefully the last change" even in the liner notes for his first solo album. Probably it's just a general comment on how it's always painful to part ways with a band member, I don't think it was specifically tailored to the Derek situation.

[Stadler]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

This is funny because Mike even admitted that James and John Myung were especially hesitant when they wanted to kick Derek out. I don't doubt that Mike was closer with Derek than anybody else. They had very similar personalities. But by his own admission James and John really took a pause about the prospect. I vaguely remember a bootleg when they introduced Jordan as the new keyboardist and James said something along the lines of "and hopefully our last lineup change."  Kind of an odd thing to say but it showed James was pretty uncomfortable with it. Oh well I guess. James has been nominated for two Grammy's and plays to packed theaters every night. Doubtful SoA will even reach Winery Dogs success which was moderate at best.

Whoa whoa whoa.   JAMES wasn't nominated, DT was.   And I can't speak for every show, nor this particular leg of this tour, but at least for the second half of The Astonishing tour, "packed" is being kind. 

[Nekov]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

This is funny because Mike even admitted that James and John Myung were especially hesitant when they wanted to kick Derek out. I don't doubt that Mike was closer with Derek than anybody else. They had very similar personalities. But by his own admission James and John really took a pause about the prospect. I vaguely remember a bootleg when they introduced Jordan as the new keyboardist and James said something along the lines of "and hopefully our last lineup change."  Kind of an odd thing to say but it showed James was pretty uncomfortable with it. Oh well I guess. James has been nominated for two Grammy's and plays to packed theaters every night. Doubtful SoA will even reach Winery Dogs success which was moderate at best.

Whoa whoa whoa.   JAMES wasn't nominated, DT was.   And I can't speak for every show, nor this particular leg of this tour, but at least for the second half of The Astonishing tour, "packed" is being kind.

That shouldn't be a meassure. The issue with the TA tour was that people who didn't like the album weren't going to pay to see the band play the full album live so it's quite understandable that the audience wasn't as big. I'm pretty sure they're getting tons of fans with the I&W one.

[gzarruk]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

This is funny because Mike even admitted that James and John Myung were especially hesitant when they wanted to kick Derek out. I don't doubt that Mike was closer with Derek than anybody else. They had very similar personalities. But by his own admission James and John really took a pause about the prospect. I vaguely remember a bootleg when they introduced Jordan as the new keyboardist and James said something along the lines of "and hopefully our last lineup change."  Kind of an odd thing to say but it showed James was pretty uncomfortable with it. Oh well I guess. James has been nominated for two Grammy's and plays to packed theaters every night. Doubtful SoA will even reach Winery Dogs success which was moderate at best.

Whoa whoa whoa.   JAMES wasn't nominated, DT was.   And I can't speak for every show, nor this particular leg of this tour, but at least for the second half of The Astonishing tour in the US, "packed" is being kind.

Fixed it.

[Stadler]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

This is funny because Mike even admitted that James and John Myung were especially hesitant when they wanted to kick Derek out. I don't doubt that Mike was closer with Derek than anybody else. They had very similar personalities. But by his own admission James and John really took a pause about the prospect. I vaguely remember a bootleg when they introduced Jordan as the new keyboardist and James said something along the lines of "and hopefully our last lineup change."  Kind of an odd thing to say but it showed James was pretty uncomfortable with it. Oh well I guess. James has been nominated for two Grammy's and plays to packed theaters every night. Doubtful SoA will even reach Winery Dogs success which was moderate at best.

Whoa whoa whoa.   JAMES wasn't nominated, DT was.   And I can't speak for every show, nor this particular leg of this tour, but at least for the second half of The Astonishing tour, "packed" is being kind.

That shouldn't be a meassure. The issue with the TA tour was that people who didn't like the album weren't going to pay to see the band play the full album live so it's quite understandable that the audience wasn't as big. I'm pretty sure they're getting tons of fans with the I&W one.

Maybe, maybe not.  And if they do, more power to 'em; I'd be seeing the Boston show if I wasn't traveling for work.   I'm just noting that we don't need to resort to hyperbole to make the point here.  Derek - to the extent you think he's digging a hole - is doing just fine by himself in that effort. 

[cramx3]

Saw that Derek liked this and other similar comments... "Bullshit. This singer actually has a pair of balls. Unlike whiny ass JLB"

I've never wished failure upon any band before, but I hope Sons sinks and teaches Derek something...

This is funny because Mike even admitted that James and John Myung were especially hesitant when they wanted to kick Derek out. I don't doubt that Mike was closer with Derek than anybody else. They had very similar personalities. But by his own admission James and John really took a pause about the prospect. I vaguely remember a bootleg when they introduced Jordan as the new keyboardist and James said something along the lines of "and hopefully our last lineup change."  Kind of an odd thing to say but it showed James was pretty uncomfortable with it. Oh well I guess. James has been nominated for two Grammy's and plays to packed theaters every night. Doubtful SoA will even reach Winery Dogs success which was moderate at best.

Whoa whoa whoa.   JAMES wasn't nominated, DT was.   And I can't speak for every show, nor this particular leg of this tour, but at least for the second half of The Astonishing tour, "packed" is being kind.

That shouldn't be a meassure. The issue with the TA tour was that people who didn't like the album weren't going to pay to see the band play the full album live so it's quite understandable that the audience wasn't as big. I'm pretty sure they're getting tons of fans with the I&W one.

There's definitely a better turn out for the I&W tour vs. TA.  Judging by the ticket sales for the shows I am going to, it's almost light and day difference. 

[Madman Shepherd]

James wrote "hopefully the last change" even in the liner notes for his first solo album. Probably it's just a general comment on how it's always painful to part ways with a band member, I don't think it was specifically tailored to the Derek situation.

I think thats what I was thinking of.  Yes, I think he was referring to that in general.  I don't think he was particularly close with Derek but I think that statement along with the fact that in Lifting Shadows Mike specifically said John Myung and James were especially hesitant about agreeing to kick Derek out shows that Derek is being especially turd-like by being a dick to James.  I also don't doubt that Derek will be thinking about that while he is playing to 500 people while James is playing to 2000...or that Derek is reading this right now.  Hi Derek!

Whoa whoa whoa.   JAMES wasn't nominated, DT was.   And I can't speak for every show, nor this particular leg of this tour, but at least for the second half of The Astonishing tour, "packed" is being kind. 

...and who does vocals for Dream Theater?  Not Derek, thank god.  Also, the show last Saturday was packed.  Astonishing first leg was packed. 

I also don't doubt that SoA shows will be packed....because the venues they play in will probably only hold a couple hundred people. 

[The Walrus]

Apparently all the weight Derek lost went straight to his head. 

[gzarruk]

Apparently all the weight Derek lost went straight to his head. 

It definitely didn’t go to his keyboard skills

[Madman Shepherd]

It's easy to lose weight when you boycott burger flippers.  He can have his garden grown kale and I'll keep my cheeseburgers. 

BTW, I went to Five Guys and I saw more people buying burgers than I'm sure I'll see at a Sons of Apollo show. 

ok, ok...I don't know why I'm feeling feisty today.  I actually enjoyed the SoA album more than the average SoA critic. 

[Destiny Of Chaos]

Haters can keep on hating. I can't stop spinning this album. Mike Portnoy never ceases to amaze. His drumming in OM alone is among the best that I've ever heard.

[Madman Shepherd]

Haters can keep on hating.

I'm sure James said the same thing when he was nominated for his second Grammy. 

[SwedishGoose]

Haters can keep on hating. I can't stop spinning this album. Mike Portnoy never ceases to amaze. His drumming in OM alone is among the best that I've ever heard.

It"s not that we are haters it's just that a lot of us feel this album cis very bland and uninspired. There are some moments but too few and too far apart.... the album would have benefitted from the band stoppning and taking the time to listen to what they created with fresh ears and then rewrite parts that did not work as well

'Fanboys are gonna fanboy' 😉

[Lowdz]

Person A being good at activity X doesn't mean person B is equally good at activity X.

Or, in this case, if person A managed to pull it off a few times, it doesn't mean that he always can / that it's always the best approach for him.

Mike seems to think that this is the best approach to write songs, and it doesn't look like he wants to try something different. He's a numbers guy: "look at how many bands I'm in, and look at how little time it takes to write these albums." He talks about Yellow Matter Custard or Cygnus and The Sea Monsters as if they were real bands. I mean, this is his FB cover photo now, the list is inflated with DT demos & bootlegs. Definitely looks like there's a "quality vs. quantity" problem here.

Would only be a fraction of the size without all the live stuff - like after every album...

[Stadler]

Haters can keep on hating. I can't stop spinning this album. Mike Portnoy never ceases to amaze. His drumming in OM alone is among the best that I've ever heard.

It"s not that we are haters it's just that a lot of us feel this album cis very bland and uninspired. There are some moments but too few and too far apart.... the album would have benefitted from the band stoppning and taking the time to listen to what they created with fresh ears and then rewrite parts that did not work as well

'Fanboys are gonna fanboy' 😉

So why are we focused on Derek's weight?  Or how that weight impacts his "keyboard skills"?  If Derek made a comment about Jordan's being bald, you'd have a cow. 

Oh, and what Grammy was James nominated for? I missed that.  I know Dream Theater was nominated for the best Heavy Metal/Hard Rock performance for "On The Backs Of Angels", written by Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung, and for "The Enemy Inside", lyrics written by Petrucci, and music credited to "Dream Theater", but I don't remember James getting nominated on his own. 

[The Walrus]

I was hoping the laugh icon at the end would indicate that line was a joke, Stadler. I'm also not in a band with any of the mentioned parties... ease up.

[gzarruk]

Person A being good at activity X doesn't mean person B is equally good at activity X.

Or, in this case, if person A managed to pull it off a few times, it doesn't mean that he always can / that it's always the best approach for him.

Mike seems to think that this is the best approach to write songs, and it doesn't look like he wants to try something different. He's a numbers guy: "look at how many bands I'm in, and look at how little time it takes to write these albums." He talks about Yellow Matter Custard or Cygnus and The Sea Monsters as if they were real bands. I mean, this is his FB cover photo now, the list is inflated with DT demos & bootlegs. Definitely looks like there's a "quality vs. quantity" problem here.

Would only be a fraction of the size without all the live stuff - like after every album...

Don't forget the official bootlegs, demos and cover albums.

EDIT: I'm counting 15 cover albums in there, that's a lot, and completely pointless imo.

[Madman Shepherd]

Haters can keep on hating. I can't stop spinning this album. Mike Portnoy never ceases to amaze. His drumming in OM alone is among the best that I've ever heard.

It"s not that we are haters it's just that a lot of us feel this album cis very bland and uninspired. There are some moments but too few and too far apart.... the album would have benefitted from the band stoppning and taking the time to listen to what they created with fresh ears and then rewrite parts that did not work as well

'Fanboys are gonna fanboy' 😉

So why are we focused on Derek's weight?  Or how that weight impacts his "keyboard skills"?  If Derek made a comment about Jordan's being bald, you'd have a cow. 

Oh, and what Grammy was James nominated for? I missed that.  I know Dream Theater was nominated for the best Heavy Metal/Hard Rock performance for "On The Backs Of Angels", written by Petrucci, Rudess, and Myung, and for "The Enemy Inside", lyrics written by Petrucci, and music credited to "Dream Theater", but I don't remember James getting nominated on his own.

You're right. Derek was on vocals. My bad.

Derek also bragged about losing a bunch of weight. On it's own that's a cool accomplishment. No one made a peep when he weighed more. In fact nobody cared or even noticed. So no nobody would have a cow. Just having fun with his words . He says some shitty things, we say some shitty things...and then he lives with the fact that he is now in a band with a guy that kicked him out of a band that has been nominated for a couple Grammy awards without either of them.

Had that band won a man named James LaBrie would have got his very own Grammy to display.

[Dave_Manchester]

I'm late to the discussion about length of time writing and recording an album, but for me, everything depends on the composers involved. Some composers can take a year to write something bland, and others need just a few days to produce a work of genius. Music history is littered with examples of masterpieces which were written in the white heat of inspiration (Mozart's diaries suggest some of his symphonies and piano concertoes were written in a matter of days). Regarding rock music, the first Liquid Tension Experiment was written in about a week, wasn't it? And they came up with music like Paradigm Shift and Universal Mind. The key for me is that LTE had Rudess and Petrucci composing, and it seems like music just effortlessly flows from them both. Neal Morse is similar. He and Stolt were the main composers of The Whirlwind (a brilliant album), and that was written in about a week. But they are both incredibly fecund composers, if fact they're infamous for how prolific they both are. They can do that kind of thing.

It's only my personal taste and opinion, but I just don't feel SoA has a composer capable of producing great music so swiftly. They are players firstly, not writers. I know that many here like or love the album, and that's great, but to me there's a laboured and pieced-together feel to most of it, with the only real inspiration coming on God of the Sun. Mike Portnoy is an incredibly talented drummer, but it has been his great fortune to cross paths with the likes of John Petrucci, Neal Morse, Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess and have them write music for him to 'arrange'. An 'arranger' (the role he claims for himself) is only as good as the material being handed to him.

Long story short, great albums can be made in a few days (and have been), but only when the composers involved are first-rate. Just my opinion.

[gzarruk]

I'm late to the discussion about length of time writing and recording an album, but for me, everything depends on the composers involved. Some composers can take a year to write something bland, and others need just a few days to produce a work of genius. Music history is littered with examples of masterpieces which were written in the white heat of inspiration (Mozart's diaries suggest some of his symphonies and piano concertoes were written in a matter of days). Regarding rock music, the first Liquid Tension Experiment was written in about a week, wasn't it? And they came up with music like Paradigm Shift and Universal Mind. The key for me is that LTE had Rudess and Petrucci composing, and it seems like music just effortlessly flows from them both. Neal Morse is similar. He and Stolt were the main composers of The Whirlwind (a brilliant album), and that was written in about a week. But they are both incredibly fecund composers, if fact they're infamous for how prolific they both are. They can do that kind of thing.

It's only my personal taste and opinion, but I just don't feel SoA has a composer capable of producing great music so swiftly. They are players firstly, not writers. I know that many here like or love the album, and that's great, but to me there's a laboured and pieced-together feel to most of it, with the only real inspiration coming on God of the Sun. Mike Portnoy is an incredibly talented drummer, but it has been his great fortune to cross paths with the likes of John Petrucci, Neal Morse, Kevin Moore and Jordan Rudess and have them write music for him to 'arrange'. An 'arranger' (the role he claims for himself) is only as good as the material being handed to him.

Long story short, great albums can be made in a few days (and have been), but only when the composers involved are first-rate. Just my opinion.

Great post.