Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[KevShmev]

Steven Wilson is not metal.

[Elite]

Steven Wilson is not metal.

Strawman.

[TAC]

Steven Wilson is not metal.

Strawman.

What?

[KevShmev]

Steven Wilson is not metal.

Strawman.

 

[Elite]

Steven Wilson is not metal.

Strawman.

What?

A 'straw man' is a logical fallacy. Misrepresenting what I said to make it easier to attack.

From wikipedia: A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent.

---

derailing the thread even further! 

[TAC]

I KNOW what a Strawman is.

How anyone would put Steven Wilson and Metal in the same sentence does not compute.

[KevShmev]

Exactly.

"AC/DC influences country music."

"AC/DC is not country."

"STRAWMAN!!!"

 

[Fritzinger]

I think that's really not fair. They are a band that is changing their sound and influences with every album

Sorry, but as much as I enjoy Haken (and I've been with them since Aquarius and have seen them a dozen times), to say they are changing their sound on every album is simply not true. Although the sound may have gotten more refined on their latter records, it's still very much based on 'traditional' progressive metal, whatever that may mean.

Please give me another band that has influenced the prog metal scene that well in the last 8 years.

Leprous & Steven Wilson, both bands that have actually changed their sound on every album they released.

---

Sorry for derailing the thread.

Cant say much about Leprous. But Steven has also taken influences and is building his signature sound around them.
I don't call what Affinity is "traditional" or even generic (to use a word that has been used in this thread quite a lot) Progressive Metal. I call what Redemption makes traditional, generic Progressive Metal. But Haken have evolved masterfully from Aquarius to Affinity. The Mountain was a friggin masterpiece, and I never thought they would top that, until they did.
For me, this band is the brightest star at the Prog Metal sky right now. Let's see what SoA will put out but I doubt it will ever reach the complexity and musicality of Affinity.

[ariich]

Yes, BUT

While I get that the individual member have earned a reputation of creating music (I'm leaving subjective opinions on quality aside), we're dealing with a band that has no music (apart from the two singles they released) out yet. These festivals are booking them merely on the merit of their previous reputation and not on the quality of their new music and that's what's bothering me.

Festival billing is based on who will draw a crowd, rather than quality of music.

And Sons of Apollo has a history of being a good draw?

Oh wait, they have Mike Portnoy, whose name is guaranteed to draw big crowds, right?  Shoot, look at those big crowds Adrenaline Mob drew...oh wait.

Not MP alone, but the lineup as a whole (particularly at a prog festival), yeah I think that's a definite draw.

[PROGdrummer]

The argument that this group shouldn't get top billing or decent billing at a festival is so stupid.

If Slash, Dave Grohl, Flea, and , idk, let's say Miles Kennedy formed a new band, they would hands down get top or near top billing at whatever festivals they were playing at.  Even if they didn't have a lick of original material out there for public consumption. The Plastic Ono Band got the exact same opprotunity back when that was a thing.

When you draw the lines from SoA, you'll see the connections they have are pretty huge. Between Kiss, Alice Cooper, Van Halen, Creed, Scott Stahp, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Zakk Wylde,  Joe Bonamossa, Jason Bonham, Dream Theater, Twisted Sister, Avenged Sevenfold...

I mean, holy fucking shit. Why would this band NOT get top billing. News flash: every single member of this band has paid their dues, they've all established their names, and they all have massive "street-cred" when it comes to the rock and metal scene.  They deserve it.  If James Labrie was the singer of some random supergroup and they got top billing, I doubt most of you would be making the same fuss you are making here. You would be applauding.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Well said

[devieira73]

That's it. Unfortunately everything that comes from SoA on this forum, if there's 0.0001% chance to be interpreted in the worst way, it will be by the majority here, no doubt.
I don't have a crystal ball, but I do think this CD has a lot of potential to be a sucess in the genre AND be very well received by rock fans in general. If this will happen, I'm curious to see the reaction here.
"Sucess doesn't mean quality ...", of course, and on and on...

[The Walrus]

I respectfully disagree with the premise that these guys are on equal footing as, say, Slash. I don't think any of the members of SoA are on the same level as Slash, or Flea, etc. as far as popularity goes, however. Especially Sheehan, or Bumblefoot, or even Soto. Most people who know rock music will recognize Flea or Slash or Dave Grohl. Not a single person I know knows any of these guys except Portnoy.

[MirrorMask]

So you know people that while they listen to Dream Theater, they never bothered with Guns n' Roses, Malmsteen, Journey and Trans Siberian Orchestra?

At the very worst I knew them all by name already, even though I was not following closely those bands except for TSO.

[Adami]

So you know people that while they listen to Dream Theater, they never bothered with Guns n' Roses, Malmsteen, Journey and Trans Siberian Orchestra?

At the very worst I knew them all by name already, even though I was not following closely those bands except for TSO.

That’s us. I knew who they all were too. But the general public? You expect them to know the bassist for Mr. big by name? You expect them to know one  of the half dozen guys in GNR by name? You expect them to know one of the more than a dozen TSO singers by name? Very unlikely.

[The Walrus]

With all due respect, MM, while I myself am familiar with all of those artists, not everyone is a huge music buff. I have a friend who is a big Portnoy fan but only knows his DT era stuff, and doesn't really consider himself a big DT fan in the first place. He doesn't listen to neoclassical shred, Journey, TSO, and knows nothing about Bumblefoot era GNR because he like many other people (sadly) jumped ship well before Chinese Democracy came out.

I live in a rural area. If I mentioned Mike Portnoy (probably the most popular name in this group) to 100 people in my town I bet maybe 10 people max would go 'oh I know him.' Not an exaggeration. I'd be lucky to get 5 I bet. But I'd wager a much larger portion would know who Dave Grohl, Slash, etc. are. My coworkers know about Journey and GnR etc. but they don't know Jeff Scott Soto and barely know Mike Portnoy.

Basically, what Adami said ^

[TAC]

So you know people that while they listen to Dream Theater, they never bothered with Guns n' Roses, Malmsteen, Journey and Trans Siberian Orchestra?

At the very worst I knew them all by name already, even though I was not following closely those bands except for TSO.

Are we saying that Slash, Flea, and Dave Grohl have the same name recognition as Bumblefoot, Portnoy, Sheehan, and Soto?

Slash, Flea, and Grohl are rock music icons.



Educated hard rock fans certainly should recognize the SoA names. Soto sang on the Malmsteen albums over 30 years ago. So he did a bit with Journey. OK, but what did they do, anything?? I've heard of TSO, but couldn't name a single performer other than saying it's the Savatage guys, but even then, I couldn't even name them.

[The Walrus]

Hell, even with me, a music buff: I'm a fan of Bill Hudson. I've been a fan since 06 when Cellador released their first album. I didn't even know he was in TSO (edit: not years, just 2015 I think) until a few months ago, and I follow musicians I enjoy like crazy!

[TAC]

Hell, even with me, a music buff: I'm a fan of Bill Hudson. I've been a fan since 06 when Cellador released their first album. I didn't even know he was in TSO (edit: not years, just 2015 I think) until a few months ago, and I follow musicians I enjoy like crazy!

They released one of my favorite albums of 2017.

[Madman Shepherd]

So you know people that while they listen to Dream Theater, they never bothered with Guns n' Roses, Malmsteen, Journey and Trans Siberian Orchestra?

At the very worst I knew them all by name already, even though I was not following closely those bands except for TSO.

That’s us. I knew who they all were too. But the general public? You expect them to know the bassist for Mr. big by name? You expect them to know one  of the half dozen guys in GNR by name? You expect them to know one of the more than a dozen TSO singers by name? Very unlikely.

On that same token, if Slash and those other guys formed a band, they could get top billing for Lollapalooza or some other huge festival and expect to get 30 - 50,000 people in the crowd each night.  Sons of Apollo are headlining a cruise and some prog festival in Barcelona.  From pictures I just looked up it looks like there may be 5000 people max at the festival and on the cruise ship, who knows?  1500 people? The prog festival in Atlanta isn't that big either and people travel from all over the world for that and bring in a few thousand. 

[TAC]

But the general public? You expect them to know the bassist for Mr. big by name? 

I wouldn't think the general public would've ever even heard of Mr. Big.

[PROGdrummer]

So you know people that while they listen to Dream Theater, they never bothered with Guns n' Roses, Malmsteen, Journey and Trans Siberian Orchestra?

At the very worst I knew them all by name already, even though I was not following closely those bands except for TSO.

Are we saying that Slash, Flea, and Dave Grohl have the same name recognition as Bumblefoot, Portnoy, Sheehan, and Soto?

Uh, no? I never even implied that they were on the same level. All I'm saying is that collectively, SoA already has established their street cred just solely based on who is in the band. All you have to do is put those names on a bill together and the value of the group goes up.

And for the record, most average people and normie music listeners dont know jack shit about ANY band, regardless of their fame. If I go up to random people (or even my own peers) and asked them if they knew who Flea, or Dave Grohl, or David Lee Roth was, I guarantee half of the people I asked would have no idea.

Last month, my parents went to see Deep Purple, Foreigner, and The Jason Bonham Zeppelin Experience live with their friends. My dad doesnt know a single Purple song aside from Smoke on The Water, and he didnt even know who Jason Bonham was. People will get hyped over something that they don't even know about. I asked my dad if he saw Steve Morse play, and told him that he was in a band with Portnoy and Neal Morse. He had know idea what I was talking about. But he didnt even know that drummer of Led Zeppelin's name was Bonham, so it's not like that's saying much.

For people who actually give a shit about music, the names on SoA hold value and weight. At Morsefest '17, I was in a room full of hundreds of people who had the discographies of every obscure 70s, 80s, and 90s art-rock band committed to memory.  The people who go to festivals are a decent balance of musically oblivious normies who will listen to anything that the promoter tells them is going to be "cool" and people who actually know what they bought tickets for.

[KevShmev]

The argument that this group shouldn't get top billing or decent billing at a festival is so stupid.

If Slash, Dave Grohl, Flea, and , idk, let's say Miles Kennedy formed a new band, they would hands down get top or near top billing at whatever festivals they were playing at.  Even if they didn't have a lick of original material out there for public consumption. The Plastic Ono Band got the exact same opprotunity back when that was a thing.

When you draw the lines from SoA, you'll see the connections they have are pretty huge. Between Kiss, Alice Cooper, Van Halen, Creed, Scott Stahp, Trans-Siberian Orchestra, Zakk Wylde,  Joe Bonamossa, Jason Bonham, Dream Theater, Twisted Sister, Avenged Sevenfold...

I mean, holy fucking shit. Why would this band NOT get top billing. News flash: every single member of this band has paid their dues, they've all established their names, and they all have massive "street-cred" when it comes to the rock and metal scene.  They deserve it.  If James Labrie was the singer of some random supergroup and they got top billing, I doubt most of you would be making the same fuss you are making here. You would be applauding.

Which member of this band played in Van Halen?

Also, no one said they haven't paid their dues, but let's not act like these guys are household names (none of them are), or that all of them were known names in prog circles. I was not in alone in having never heard of the singer or Stumblebum prior to this project.

[MirrorMask]

So you know people that while they listen to Dream Theater, they never bothered with Guns n' Roses, Malmsteen, Journey and Trans Siberian Orchestra?

At the very worst I knew them all by name already, even though I was not following closely those bands except for TSO.

That’s us. I knew who they all were too. But the general public? You expect them to know the bassist for Mr. big by name? You expect them to know one  of the half dozen guys in GNR by name? You expect them to know one of the more than a dozen TSO singers by name? Very unlikely.

On that same token, if Slash and those other guys formed a band, they could get top billing for Lollapalooza or some other huge festival and expect to get 30 - 50,000 people in the crowd each night.  Sons of Apollo are headlining a cruise and some prog festival in Barcelona.  From pictures I just looked up it looks like there may be 5000 people max at the festival and on the cruise ship, who knows?  1500 people? The prog festival in Atlanta isn't that big either and people travel from all over the world for that and bring in a few thousand.

That's basically what I was saying, that with due comparisons to the popularity of the names of the previous example, it's not far fetched for someone who knows Dream Theater to know that JSS is a singer popping up here and there, that Bumblefoot was the name of one of the guitarists for Guns n' Roses etc... I was supporting the idea that a high billing for the band in the kind of festival they are booked is in the end justified.

[TAC]

The only high billing they'd get would be on the next Mike Portnoy cruise.

[Anguyen92]

The argument that this group shouldn't get top billing or decent billing at a festival is so stupid.

If Slash, Dave Grohl, Flea, and , idk, let's say Miles Kennedy formed a new band, they would hands down get top or near top billing at whatever festivals they were playing at.  Even if they didn't have a lick of original material out there for public consumption. The Plastic Ono Band got the exact same opprotunity back when that was a thing.

That's a funny thing about that.  When Them Crooked Vultures were touring around 2010 and doing festivals like Download, they only had one album worth of material and yet they had high billing for the most part.  Of course, as people have mentioned already, the band members there were way more recognizable than the guys of SOA.  You had Josh Homme (Queens of the Stone Age leader), Dave Grohl (Foo Fighters leader), and John Paul Jones (bassist of Led Zeppelin and the guy that incorporated all kinds of weird instruments for Zeppelin that gave them the ability to be as diverse as they were).  Very big big mainstream names.

[PROGdrummer]

Which member of this band played in Van Halen?

Sorry, not Van Halen per say, but Sheehan has worked with David Lee Roth several times. I mis-spoke  a bit there.
But you'd be surprised how many legendary rockstars are really not "household names" at all. People have heard their songs, and maybe even seen them play, but still not know who they are. Success doesnt always equal fame. Michael Jackson is a household name. Peter Gabriel is a household name. Dee Snyder? Maybe not as much, honestly. Tony Banks who? Taylor Hawkins who?

[Lethean]

I agree with Mirror Mask on this.  While those who are saying that SoA doesn't have the name recognition that Slash and Dave Grohl have are correct, I think MM is also correct that SoA have enough recognition to get top festival billing on a prog cruise or festival.  Just about everyone interested in attending such a festival knows who Mike and Derek are.  I would guess Billy Sheehan too.  That's probably enough right there.  Then you have Jeff Scott Soto who maybe isn't a big prog name, but a lot of people know him through Yngwie. 

In a perfect world, Haken and Pain of Salvation would get the higher billing over SoA (and I say that as someone who strongly dislikes PoS). It's not, and I really don't have a problem with SoA getting the higher billing.  James LaBrie is headling ProgPower USA next year, and I think deservedly so.  His name, like SoA, will bring people in who might be attending the festival for the very first time, and that's something.  However, a lot of people like "us" may not consider his recent output to be prog metal, and may find it odd that his band, though established, would headline over a band like Redemption that a lot of prog metal fans know and love.  It's just the way it is.

It doesn't mean SoA is going to be this great new prog metal band, but people are going to see them and probably many are going to like it.  It doesn't really do it for me, but I can see it appealing to segments of all 5 members existing fan bases. 

[KevShmev]

Which member of this band played in Van Halen?

Sorry, not Van Halen per say, but Sheehan has worked with David Lee Roth several times. I mis-spoke  a bit there.
But you'd be surprised how many legendary rockstars are really not "household names" at all. People have heard their songs, and maybe even seen them play, but still not know who they are. Success doesnt always equal fame. Michael Jackson is a household name. Peter Gabriel is a household name. Dee Snyder? Maybe not as much, honestly. Tony Banks who? Taylor Hawkins who?

It's a different world now, to be honest. Shoot, growing up in the 80s, everyone could name a few guys from at least every band that was popular at all, but not anymore.  Shoot, for a big as Muse is, go up to 100 people on the street and you'd be lucky to find 10 who could even identify Matt Bellamy as being one of the guys in that band.  Unless you are a massive pop star (Katy Perry, Beyonce, etc.) or a media attention whore (K West), the average public doesn't know your name anymore.

[King Postwhore]

He's the dude thst got sloppy seconds after Chris Robinson.

[KevShmev]

I doubt he was the second...

[King Postwhore]

 

[TAC]

I wouldn't know Matt Belamy if he walked up and introduced himself.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Just to use one very broad parameter: which band is getting more movement in their thread here in DTF: Haken, Leprous, POS or Sons of Apollo?

[gzarruk]

Just to use one very broad parameter: which band is getting more movement in their thread here in DTF: Haken, Leprous, POS or Sons of Apollo?

Which band's members started to talk crap about their previous band and offended a big part of their potential market?