Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[KevShmev]

[pcs90]

I think it's definitely possible to be cool (as a keyboardist myself) but it's hard to overcome the stigma of 'cheesy keyboards.' It really is. Especially when, for most keyboardists, those sounds most people call 'cheesy' are actually really fucking cool. Jordan Rudess and Jens Johansson have the two best lead voices on the planet imo. Those are cool leads, and if you got the chops like they do, you can be cool af, as the kids say.

Jordan's lead patches are always really cool and well thought out, and there's a ton of work involved in designing them. That SFAM lead has at least 10 layers in it. There's a clip where he goes through all of them somewhere. To me a lot of his solos lately have been boring (just runs,) but the sounds themselves can be super expressive, like his current Kronos lead with all the different feedback harmonics. Every once in a while I'll hear a slower track with him playing a more melodic solo on that sound and it just rocks.

[The Walrus]

I think it's definitely possible to be cool (as a keyboardist myself) but it's hard to overcome the stigma of 'cheesy keyboards.' It really is. Especially when, for most keyboardists, those sounds most people call 'cheesy' are actually really fucking cool. Jordan Rudess and Jens Johansson have the two best lead voices on the planet imo. Those are cool leads, and if you got the chops like they do, you can be cool af, as the kids say.

Jordan's lead patches are always really cool and well thought out, and there's a ton of work involved in designing them. That SFAM lead has at least 10 layers in it. There's a clip where he goes through all of them somewhere. To me a lot of his solos lately have been boring (just runs,) but the sounds themselves can be super expressive, like his current Kronos lead with all the different feedback harmonics. Every once in a while I'll hear a slower track with him playing a more melodic solo on that sound and it just rocks.

Oooh I'd love to see that clip. You hear what he does in Enigma Machine, I think it's around the 2 or 3 minute mark, right after the bass solo? THAT'S the JR soloing I love. And I'd love for Derek to do some absolutely batshit playing like that on SoA too.

[pcs90]

Oooh I'd love to see that clip. You hear what he does in Enigma Machine, I think it's around the 2 or 3 minute mark, right after the bass solo? THAT'S the JR soloing I love. And I'd love for Derek to do some absolutely batshit playing like that on SoA too.

I believe it was from a DVD he made. Search for "Jordan Rudess Performance Programming" and it should come up. There's a 50-minute video showing all sorts of different layers, splits and other tricks he used for live performances, and the last 10-15 mins are focused on leads. I have programmed a similar patch (using only 2 layers!) but the feedback is a lot different as a result and I'd really need to use some pedals to thicken up the sound. Surprisingly close though.

I would have to say my favorite crazy JR solo is the one during Mike Mangini's audition jam, near the end. That one is just nuts! And within all those runs there are still melodies (the simple chord structure probably helps.) If it's just crazy with no melodies or feeling I just get bored.

[faizoff]

Speaking as a keyboard player... You can't play keyboards and be cool. You just can't. Derek is coming across like a guy who wishes his parents had pushed him to be a guitarist

Speaking not as a keyboard player and, I suppose, as a big fanboy too, I think Jon Lord was fairly cool. Depends on your definition of "cool", of course.

What about Wakeman and his big flowing capes???

Not only that but girls would ask Wakeman to sign their tits. Actually didn't Kevin Moore do that in the Japan Live DVD as well?

[Stadler]

Speaking as a keyboard player... You can't play keyboards and be cool. You just can't. Derek is coming across like a guy who wishes his parents had pushed him to be a guitarist

Speaking not as a keyboard player and, I suppose, as a big fanboy too, I think Jon Lord was fairly cool. Depends on your definition of "cool", of course.

What about Wakeman and his big flowing capes???

Not only that but girls would ask Wakeman to sign their tits. Actually didn't Kevin Moore do that in the Japan Live DVD as well?

I watched Tommy Lee do that once before a show (I was a security guard at the Hartford Civic Center for a while).  Later on, between the opening act and Crue, I was walking on the concourse level and she was walking around, with her boob out, showing anyone who would look her autograph. 

[Anguyen92]

Speaking as a keyboard player... You can't play keyboards and be cool. You just can't. Derek is coming across like a guy who wishes his parents had pushed him to be a guitarist

I think it's definitely possible to be cool (as a keyboardist myself) but it's hard to overcome the stigma of 'cheesy keyboards.' It really is. Especially when, for most keyboardists, those sounds most people call 'cheesy' are actually really fucking cool. Jordan Rudess and Jens Johansson have the two best lead voices on the planet imo. Those are cool leads, and if you got the chops like they do, you can be cool af, as the kids say.

It's possible, just not a given. 

Cool:

In all fairness, I think The Table has his moments of being cheesy along with being cool.  Him going all "Metallica Famileh!" sometimes is a good example of that.

I honestly do think Jordan fiddling around with his gadgets and his keytar.  That looks cool to me.  I think typically, it's a good way to get the crowd going when he brings those out.  Tiresome and cheesy at times?  Sure, but still cool nonetheless.  He still can bring some good emotions out with just a piano-like sound (honestly, the intro to Hymn of a Thousand Voices was really compelling and he didn't need anything more fancy to pull that off).

[The Walrus]

Oooh I'd love to see that clip. You hear what he does in Enigma Machine, I think it's around the 2 or 3 minute mark, right after the bass solo? THAT'S the JR soloing I love. And I'd love for Derek to do some absolutely batshit playing like that on SoA too.

I believe it was from a DVD he made. Search for "Jordan Rudess Performance Programming" and it should come up. There's a 50-minute video showing all sorts of different layers, splits and other tricks he used for live performances, and the last 10-15 mins are focused on leads. I have programmed a similar patch (using only 2 layers!) but the feedback is a lot different as a result and I'd really need to use some pedals to thicken up the sound. Surprisingly close though.

I would have to say my favorite crazy JR solo is the one during Mike Mangini's audition jam, near the end. That one is just nuts! And within all those runs there are still melodies (the simple chord structure probably helps.) If it's just crazy with no melodies or feeling I just get bored.

Thanks dude!! On my Krome, I had a (downloaded) group of patches and one of them had JR's lead sound. It was almost spot on, a bit different and more reverb but holy shit it's the most fun synth lead I've ever used in my life. Nothing I've made has come close and I'll never replicate Jens's so yeah. I know which solo you're talking about too re: Mangini's audition - I've always loved that.

Okay, that's enough derailing for me...

[pcs90]

Oooh I'd love to see that clip. You hear what he does in Enigma Machine, I think it's around the 2 or 3 minute mark, right after the bass solo? THAT'S the JR soloing I love. And I'd love for Derek to do some absolutely batshit playing like that on SoA too.

I believe it was from a DVD he made. Search for "Jordan Rudess Performance Programming" and it should come up. There's a 50-minute video showing all sorts of different layers, splits and other tricks he used for live performances, and the last 10-15 mins are focused on leads. I have programmed a similar patch (using only 2 layers!) but the feedback is a lot different as a result and I'd really need to use some pedals to thicken up the sound. Surprisingly close though.

I would have to say my favorite crazy JR solo is the one during Mike Mangini's audition jam, near the end. That one is just nuts! And within all those runs there are still melodies (the simple chord structure probably helps.) If it's just crazy with no melodies or feeling I just get bored.

Thanks dude!! On my Krome, I had a (downloaded) group of patches and one of them had JR's lead sound. It was almost spot on, a bit difference and more reverb but holy shit it's the most fun synth lead I've ever used in my life. Nothing I've made has come close and I'll never replicate Jens's so yeah. I know which solo you're talking about too re: Mangini's audition - I've always loved that.

Okay, that's enough derailing for me...

Yeah, I programmed a couple of prog-style leads on the Roland synth I own. Jordan's keytar one, Derek's, the Octavarium continuum, the snarling pig, and a few others. And then the SFAM one on my Moog. When I play with other people I rarely get to use those, I usually stick to jazzier / funkier leads, but they're loads of fun to screw around with at home.

[Stadler]

How old are you, Anguyen92?  I mean that sincerely.  I'm 50, so to me, the whole notion of a "keytar" is based on the early guitar synths from the mid-80's, not the current wizardry of a Jordan Rudess.   That may have a lot to do with it.

Oh, and Firewings, I mean Kattelox, I mean Firewings (what was I going to call you? It wasn't either of them... I forget now) but "Cool" calls James Hetfield up to ask for hints and tips.   "Cool" says "I want to be James Hetfield when I grow up".   "Cool" has a James Hetfield poster on it's bedroom wall. 

[Stadler]

Oooh I'd love to see that clip. You hear what he does in Enigma Machine, I think it's around the 2 or 3 minute mark, right after the bass solo? THAT'S the JR soloing I love. And I'd love for Derek to do some absolutely batshit playing like that on SoA too.

I believe it was from a DVD he made. Search for "Jordan Rudess Performance Programming" and it should come up. There's a 50-minute video showing all sorts of different layers, splits and other tricks he used for live performances, and the last 10-15 mins are focused on leads. I have programmed a similar patch (using only 2 layers!) but the feedback is a lot different as a result and I'd really need to use some pedals to thicken up the sound. Surprisingly close though.

I would have to say my favorite crazy JR solo is the one during Mike Mangini's audition jam, near the end. That one is just nuts! And within all those runs there are still melodies (the simple chord structure probably helps.) If it's just crazy with no melodies or feeling I just get bored.

Thanks dude!! On my Krome, I had a (downloaded) group of patches and one of them had JR's lead sound. It was almost spot on, a bit difference and more reverb but holy shit it's the most fun synth lead I've ever used in my life. Nothing I've made has come close and I'll never replicate Jens's so yeah. I know which solo you're talking about too re: Mangini's audition - I've always loved that.

Okay, that's enough derailing for me...

Yeah, I programmed a couple of prog-style leads on the Roland synth I own. Jordan's keytar one, Derek's, the Octavarium continuum, the snarling pig, and a few others. And then the SFAM one on my Moog. When I play with other people I rarely get to use those, I usually stick to jazzier / funkier leads, but they're loads of fun to screw around with at home.

In simple, layman's terms, how do you do that?  How do you "program a sound"?  Sample it?  Code?

[mikeyd23]

Now, see, I don't think James Hetfield is cool, *and* I think that pic of Geoff Downes rocks. So THERE.

What now?

[pcs90]

In simple, layman's terms, how do you do that?  How do you "program a sound"?  Sample it?  Code?

In my case, the simplest answer would be by turning knobs on the synths themselves. If you search for "subtractive synthesis" you'll probably get a much clearer explanation than I could give. No sampling or coding as the devices I own don't even have screens. I like the old school synths with knobs and buttons for everything.

[El Barto]

Yeah, I think this wins the cool contest.

[bill1971]

Speaking as a keyboard player... You can't play keyboards and be cool. You just can't. Derek is coming across like a guy who wishes his parents had pushed him to be a guitarist

Speaking not as a keyboard player and, I suppose, as a big fanboy too, I think Jon Lord was fairly cool. Depends on your definition of "cool", of course.

What about Wakeman and his big flowing capes???

Not only that but girls would ask Wakeman to sign their tits. Actually didn't Kevin Moore do that in the Japan Live DVD as well?

I never understood that. If I went to Heart concert I wouldn't have them sign my ding a ling.

[King Postwhore]

So just initials then?

[bosk1]

[nattmorker]

Oh, and Firewings, I mean Kattelox, I mean Firewings (what was I going to call you? It wasn't either of them... I forget now) but "Cool" calls James Hetfield up to ask for hints and tips.   "Cool" says "I want to be James Hetfield when I grow up".   "Cool" has a James Hetfield poster on it's bedroom wall.

Totally agree with that!  James Hetfield is the person I immediately think of when I say "cool" in terms of rock/metal.

[Sycsa]

Speaking as a keyboard player... You can't play keyboards and be cool. You just can't. Derek is coming across like a guy who wishes his parents had pushed him to be a guitarist

When I was 15 years old, I thought the coolest person ever was Jon Lord. 12 years later, I still think he was mighty cool. Having a big burly Hammond C3 on stage certainly helps. As the man himself put it:

I can’t play a keyboard that’s no longer than my arm in front of 20,000 people. When we played the California Jam in 1974, there were more than 300,000 people in the audience. I was behind my Hammond, and I was cool.

[SwedishGoose]

Not just having it on stage... playing with it, tilting it on stage.... yeah he was definitely cool

[Anguyen92]

How old are you, Anguyen92?  I mean that sincerely.  I'm 50, so to me, the whole notion of a "keytar" is based on the early guitar synths from the mid-80's, not the current wizardry of a Jordan Rudess.   That may have a lot to do with it.

I'm only 25.  I'm sure somewhere in the back in my mind when I think keytar, I would think chessy 80s dance music.  That stated, when I watched Jordan with the keytar on the Breaking the Fourth Wall DVD, I marked out for it.  I'm easy to please, honestly, so seeing the wizard with that keytar making some great noises, I thought that was cool.

[rumborak]

His recent additions of the two iPads glued to his keytar is maybe a bit much. At the same time, I applaud his "fuck it, I'm doing it" attitude

[The Walrus]

In simple, layman's terms, how do you do that?  How do you "program a sound"?  Sample it?  Code?

In my case, the simplest answer would be by turning knobs on the synths themselves. If you search for "subtractive synthesis" you'll probably get a much clearer explanation than I could give. No sampling or coding as the devices I own don't even have screens. I like the old school synths with knobs and buttons for everything.

I've always wanted old school synths for the knobs and badassery of it all but I just never had the money or space for it all.

In my case, on my Krome, there was an LCD touch screen you could navigate. I used a Nintendo 3DS stylus, actually, because everything was ridiculously cramped. But you could go into a single voice - say a simple Nintendo-style square lead, beep beep doot doot etc. - and edit the parameters. But each parameter of the sound would be available to tweak, and I mean EVERY imaginable parameter. Oscillators. Attack/release. Tuning etc. etc. There would literally be charts showing the shape of the sound, a line that would change as you tweaked the parameters. And then you could combine up to 16 voices into a single sound, and you could tweak every imaginable parameter of each individual sound. The synth takes almost a full minute just to boot up. It's... incredibly complex even as a synth player. But it's incredibly powerful, too.

But I actually sold it and my amps and my other synths about a year ago, partially because I just got sick of dealing with the technology and all the editing. So now all I have is a digital piano. Ideally I'd have a grand piano but there's no space or money for that 

[The Walrus]

Now, see, I don't think James Hetfield is cool, *and* I think that pic of Geoff Downes rocks. So THERE.

What now?

I have... controversial opinions on Metallica. 

Oh, and Firewings, I mean Kattelox, I mean Firewings (what was I going to call you? It wasn't either of them... I forget now) but "Cool" calls James Hetfield up to ask for hints and tips.   "Cool" says "I want to be James Hetfield when I grow up".   "Cool" has a James Hetfield poster on it's bedroom wall. 

Fishwings, for taking the bait that one time? "Cool" should find itself a younger role model now 

[pcs90]

In simple, layman's terms, how do you do that?  How do you "program a sound"?  Sample it?  Code?

In my case, the simplest answer would be by turning knobs on the synths themselves. If you search for "subtractive synthesis" you'll probably get a much clearer explanation than I could give. No sampling or coding as the devices I own don't even have screens. I like the old school synths with knobs and buttons for everything.

I've always wanted old school synths for the knobs and badassery of it all but I just never had the money or space for it all.

In my case, on my Krome, there was an LCD touch screen you could navigate. I used a Nintendo 3DS stylus, actually, because everything was ridiculously cramped. But you could go into a single voice - say a simple Nintendo-style square lead, beep beep doot doot etc. - and edit the parameters. But each parameter of the sound would be available to tweak, and I mean EVERY imaginable parameter. Oscillators. Attack/release. Tuning etc. etc. There would literally be charts showing the shape of the sound, a line that would change as you tweaked the parameters. And then you could combine up to 16 voices into a single sound, and you could tweak every imaginable parameter of each individual sound. The synth takes almost a full minute just to boot up. It's... incredibly complex even as a synth player. But it's incredibly powerful, too.

But I actually sold it and my amps and my other synths about a year ago, partially because I just got sick of dealing with the technology and all the editing. So now all I have is a digital piano. Ideally I'd have a grand piano but there's no space or money for that 

A lot of the knob-per-function synths are smaller! 25, 37 or 49 keys. 25 is really too small for anything IMO  unless you control it from another board, but I'd rather not. There are some nice relatively inexpensive digital synths with knobs everywhere, like the Roland Gaia (sells for $300-425 used all the time.) Most demos of this thing make it sound like crap. But it can do A LOT of things well. No screen, no menus, all hands on and unlike some true analog synths in that price bracket it lets you save presets and it has effects. Lots of JR / DS - style leads in that machine...

[Lowdz]

How old are you, Anguyen92?  I mean that sincerely.  I'm 50, so to me, the whole notion of a "keytar" is based on the early guitar synths from the mid-80's, not the current wizardry of a Jordan Rudess.   That may have a lot to do with it.

I'm only 25.  I'm sure somewhere in the back in my mind when I think keytar, I would think chessy 80s dance music.  That stated, when I watched Jordan with the keytar on the Breaking the Fourth Wall DVD, I marked out for it.  I'm easy to please, honestly, so seeing the wizard with that keytar making some great noises, I thought that was cool.

Jordan also layers several sounds on top of each other to get his sounds, including his lead tone.

I don't get the stick JR is getting from Derek for the iPad stuff. They aren't toys, they are working synths with a new interface. What's to be scared of? Just jealousy I'm afraid. He's coming over as such a spoilt brat.

[ganpondorodf]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

[Lowdz]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

The worst thing is the cheesy shape. But there are some bloody awful looking guitars out there too 😀

[Samsara]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

AMEN.

[Orbert]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

I've honestly never understood the hatred.  Keyboard players are essentially nailed to a spot because of their gear, not unlike drummers.  Someone figured out that you could package a keyboard in something portable and allow keyboard players some mobility.  What's the problem?

[bosk1]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

I've honestly never understood the hatred.  Keyboard players are essentially nailed to a spot because of their gear, not unlike drummers.  Someone figured out that you could package a keyboard in something portable and allow keyboard players some mobility.  What's the problem?

I'm with ya', Orbert.

[Ben_Jamin]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

I've honestly never understood the hatred.  Keyboard players are essentially nailed to a spot because of their gear, not unlike drummers.  Someone figured out that you could package a keyboard in something portable and allow keyboard players some mobility.  What's the problem?

Edgar Winter...the OG keytarist.

[ganpondorodf]

If you don't know why, nothing I say will convince you

[metrojam]

Coen Janssen from Epica seems pretty cool especially with his keyboard stand that moves around the stage.

He IS damn cool, especially when he goes crowd surfing in a song and still continues to play the keytar 

[rumborak]

Good God keytars need to fucking die.

I've honestly never understood the hatred.  Keyboard players are essentially nailed to a spot because of their gear, not unlike drummers.  Someone figured out that you could package a keyboard in something portable and allow keyboard players some mobility.  What's the problem?

In the end, I think it will always come down to the impression that the keyboard player is trying to look like a guitar player. Even more so, while a guitar, especially with string bending, has some justification for physically getting into the motion, keyboards are just plastic levers that you could push with your nose if you wanted to. So when a keyboard player makes theatrics as if he was wrangling with the instrument to get that bombastic sound, it strikes a lot of people as fake, far more fake than what guitarists do.