Sons of Apollo (feat. Portnoy & Sherinian)

[kaos2900]

but it's a really weak move to so heavily slam a 7/10 review that was quite detailed in its analysis.

This. Not only does the review compliment them more than it calls them out for the moments of 'cheese' and 'been done' moments....it's very detailed and any intellectually honest reader can gleen from reading it that it was done in a fair, pragmatic way.

At this point the only reason I will ever purchase another musical output from MP or see him play live again is Neal Morse. So utterly sick of and disappointed by MP with this last Facebook whine fest being the straw that broke the camels back for me.

I'm with you on that. I'm to the point where I wish Neal would find a new drummer.

Noxon, anyway you could post your review? I don't have facebook and would like to read it.

[The Walrus]

It is really sad that 20 years, many albums and several projects later, Derek is still salty about being the second fiddle to Jordan. Technical proficiency isn't all that matters, in the end it's the music you make that counts. And it's really sad that he doesn't seem to understand that since he's still taking puerile digs at Jordan and the rest of DT. Same goes for Mike. How on Earth is it even possible for that man to have won so many awards - consecutively, at that - and still have such thin skin for criticism and disagreement?

I won't say anything about the album yet. But... 

[Stadler]

Just saying.

That's uncanny

...and Paul Stanley is 15 years older... (14 exactly).

[rumborak]

To some degree, the way I perceive it, is that the two seem to view us as "musical morons" who will eat up anything that has odd meters and fast solos in it. Because, how can we have taste if we still listen to that unspeakable band that MP was once a part of?!
So, DS and MP form a band to pander to the likes us, but because neither of them even is into prog all that much these days, it becomes a shoehorned effort. Us musical morons pick up on that, but between their incredulity and fragile egos, they quickly conclude that we are indeed the morons they took us for, only for a different reason.
Tldr: "We pandered to morons but they didn't like it, which shows they're even more moronic than we thought."

[ganpondorodf]

How on Earth is it even possible for that man to have won so many awards - consecutively, at that - and still have such thin skin for criticism and disagreement?

If MP was just starting out in this day and age he wouldn't last five minutes. I've said it before and I'll say it again: he needs to step back. He needs to not read reviews or social media or anything. Engaging with your fans can be a good thing but he's too sensitive for it.

[MirrorMask]

Speaking generally, I think that a musician has only to lose and nothing to gain by commenting on reviews.

If they're unprofessional, trolling and insulting reviews, giving even the credit of the acknoledgment is a victory for the unprofessional reviewer / troll.

If they're professional and express critics in a tasteful and argumented ways, still commenting on them gives to the casual follower the impression that the musician has too much of a thin skin to accept any kind of critic.

Just share positive reviews and ignore the rest, nobody's gonna ask to a band  to repost on their social media negative reviews anyway.

[noxon]

Noxon, anyway you could post your review? I don't have facebook and would like to read it.

https://dreamtheater.club - it's the newest post.

[bill1971]

Noxon, anyway you could post your review? I don't have facebook and would like to read it.

https://dreamtheater.club - it's the newest post.

What did you and Derek say? I don't have Facebook.

[gzarruk]

Regarding the DT.club supporting ex-members;

One of the things I stipulated as a non-negotiable requirement for me to take the reins of the new fan club I was building, as that I wanted full editorial freedom. The right to choose the content on the sites and social media that I control.

The reason for this was I wanted this to be a true "Dream Theater World" - not only uniting the fans all across the globe into one fan club, but to ensure that we would have the ability to objectively cover anyone and anything connected to Dream Theater. Current members, staff, ex-members, side projects and so forth. There's no Dream Theater breathing down my neck making sure I only post stuff they approve.

So I really don't get this bias argument. I have covered Charlie Dominicis attempt at crowdfunding. I have covered the Kevin Moore patreon and new tracks. I have covered Mike Portnoys bands (specifically Neal Morse Band, Shattered Fortress and Sons of Apollo as they're the ones that have been relevant during the period the fan club has existed). I don't take sides! I don't even see it as sides. It's a bunch of musicians creating music. Some of it good, some of it maybe not so good. What on earth would my gain be in being intentionally biased against Sons of Apollo? If anything, Sons of Apollo would provide me of yet another source for content. Sucking up to Mike and Derek would be in my best interest, if I was a man without any integrity. But I've prided myself on having the ability to try to stay objective and neutral even considering the fact that I have had personal access to people others simply do not have.

Great post and excellent review of the album. I think the band members that commented on it (MP, DS and JSS) are just too blinded by the novelty of SOA that are, at this point, incapable of seeing any flaw on their own work. They're saying something like "We've created the most amazing album you could ever listen to in your entire lives. If you don't agree with it, then you're retarded, biased, or some crap like that". And, imo, that's the worst thing a new band can do (or any band, actually).

I basically agree - I think it's a shame there's this drama, and I don't really understand why both the band and a chunk of the potential fanbase seem to think there need to be two "sides".

There's no need to split this into two "sides" that are at conflict with each other. In fact, when this was first announced, I was very excited about this new band/album and had big amounts of respect/admiration for DS, and, to a lesser degree, MP. However, they were the ones who started taking sides as in "if you like them, I don't want to have anything to do with you". So it's bassically their fault that people are taking sides on this topic.

Also, as many other people have said on previous posts, it's really a very bad move to start taking shots at the people who conform pretty much around 90% of you potential fanbase. At this point, SOA is a band directed mostly (mainly because of MP's and DS' actions) to hardcore fans that will buy anything that has MP and/or DS names on it.

[Stadler]

I'm closest to "As I Am" here.  I am Team Mike - for the record I think Derek IS joking, it's just not as clear and funny as he would perhaps like it to be - but here's where it gets real for me:   we're not building a good stable relationship with the fans.     

Think about this;  you're slagging reviews that give a 7/10 (full disclosure: haven't read the review yet) on the grounds that it's "biased", but what happens when the album comes out?   That's a LOT of eggs in one basket, right there.   Most artists would, I would think, take a 7 out of 10, but since they've set the bar at "you're either for us or against us", and seven out of ten is "against us", what happens when or if the vast majority of reviews are 7 or lower?  This won't be the first - nor the last - album that has been good but not universally perfect (what album has been?)    The Zeppelin albums, even the legendary IV, notoriously got poor reviews (at least from Rolling Stone) the first time around. 

[emtee]

This bravado attitude and the drama it's unleashing across the community is truly hard to understand. I've tried to stay away from
all of it and let each camp fight their own battles but DS and MP are making it really hard to buy into this 'I heard you took one in
the face' attitude.

Dang.

[MirrorMask]

I think when the album will be out, all of this will be like Maiden's Dance of Death cover: it will no longer matter, or anyway it's gonna be a minor footnote.

[Sycsa]

Maiden's Dance of Death cover

What's the story with that?

Anyway, everytime "Del Fuvio brothers/bravado" is meantioned, I cringe harder and harder. None of this is funny or edgy. I also gotta wonder, since they polarized the fanbase so much, who even is in their "corner?" MP's forum was shut down, because they didn't unanimously conform to the desired opinion, they alienated DTF, heavily moderate FB, while reddit is also pretty lukewarm. I guess the YouTube comments are pretty positive.

[bosk1]

I think when the album will be out, all of this will be like Maiden's Dance of Death cover: it will no longer matter, or anyway it's gonna be a minor footnote.

I'm not so sure.  It's one thing to put out a sloppy looking product that sounds good.  It's another thing entirely to attack and alienate a significant portion of your fanbase.

[noxon]

Realistically - most people will never have seen or heard above this so-called drama. While we’d all like to think we’re the center of the universe - the fact of the matter is that only a few hundred people have seen it and care... I know this cause I see the stats on Facebook and my review. Even when mike posted my interview with him it only racked up some 10000 views... this is reality.

So I’m not sure any of this matters.

[bill1971]

It is funny. MP says all reviews are unanimous except the bad ones, they don't count because they are biased. At least DS posted it on his page unlike MP.

[Sycsa]

Realistically - most people will never have seen or heard above this so-called drama. While we’d all like to think we’re the center of the universe - the fact of the matter is that only a few hundred people have seen it and care... I know this cause I see the stats on Facebook and my review. Even when mike posted my interview with him it only racked up some 10000 views... this is reality.

So I’m not sure any of this matters.

Yeah, this. Also, how many album sales can be expected, a few tens of thousands? 97% of those won't be aware of this whole BS.

[Art]

Even though MP and Derek have been displaying extremely poor taste in the online "jokes"* about the SOA x DT rivalry (which really doesn't exist), i am, for the time being, still excited to listen to the album. I like the two songs that have been released, and i think this album might be good for my tastes.

But yeah, this attitude from the band is really silly and childish, and i doubt it's helping them to get more fans, if anything, it's just alienating a part of the fanbase.

*i am taking them as jokes, even if they are in extremely poor taste. If they seriously think they are the new kings of prog metal, i think they have gone completely crazy.

[bosk1]

Realistically - most people will never have seen or heard above this so-called drama. While we’d all like to think we’re the center of the universe - the fact of the matter is that only a few hundred people have seen it and care... I know this cause I see the stats on Facebook and my review. Even when mike posted my interview with him it only racked up some 10000 views... this is reality.

So I’m not sure any of this matters.

I'm not so sure.  I mean, I agree with your general point that we are a small portion of the fan base and not a big deal.  The problem for SoA is, they appeal to only a small niche fan base as it is.  They NEED the word to get out if they want to sell albums/tickets.  And the very people who stand to want to buy their product are the ones they are attacking.  If you had a Metallica-sized fan base, numbers like us wouldn't matter.  For a likely SoA-sized fan base, I think it's a different story altogether.

But either way, it's still a pretty dumb move on their part.  If there is no measurable impact on their success, great.  But if they lose even a single fan more than they gain by this, then it's a mistake on their part.  And I would wager that they have lost more than that.  But that's on them to figure out how to deal with.  All I can say for certain is this:  For me, I'm still likely to buy the album.  I like what I've heard.  But I am less enthusiastic about it.  So if I end up being lukewarm on it, that could still have an impact on my overall fandom of the band because the extra-curricular stuff could make me less likely to give them the benefit of the doubt next time around.  And when it comes to live stuff, if they were to come close enough to think about going to a show, unless it were extremely cheap and convenient, this extra-curricular stuff has me thinking I am not likely to make much effort to see them in person.

[kaos2900]

Realistically - most people will never have seen or heard above this so-called drama. While we’d all like to think we’re the center of the universe - the fact of the matter is that only a few hundred people have seen it and care... I know this cause I see the stats on Facebook and my review. Even when mike posted my interview with him it only racked up some 10000 views... this is reality.

So I’m not sure any of this matters.

Yeah, this. Also, how many album sales can be expected, a few tens of thousands? 97% of those won't be aware of this whole BS.

I think that is pretty optimistic estimate.

[Stadler]

Surely Mike knows all this? After 30+ years in the business?  Surely MARLENE knows this? 

[MirrorMask]

Maiden's Dance of Death cover

What's the story with that?

Not really a story, but it's just that the cover art upon release was universally panned and loathed. The album got much better appreciation for the actual music, so while before the release date the ugly cover was everything fans could talk about, over time and over the years the album got remembered for its standout songs, not for an ugly cover.

Now let's say the Sons of Apollo album is absolutely amazing, in the long run people will talk more about the song itself rather than some tweets... as long as the whole thing does not get taken to the next level by the band members, the music will overshadow the tweets.

[Sycsa]

Realistically - most people will never have seen or heard above this so-called drama. While we’d all like to think we’re the center of the universe - the fact of the matter is that only a few hundred people have seen it and care... I know this cause I see the stats on Facebook and my review. Even when mike posted my interview with him it only racked up some 10000 views... this is reality.

So I’m not sure any of this matters.

Yeah, this. Also, how many album sales can be expected, a few tens of thousands? 97% of those won't be aware of this whole BS.

I think that is pretty optimistic estimate.

I don't know, my only point of reference is that according to Billboard 200, DT can usually ship between 30-40k albums on the first week of release in the US alone. I think in a longer time and worldwide, given the star power in SoA, they can sell 10-20k.

[Herrick]

Realistically - most people will never have seen or heard above this so-called drama. While we’d all like to think we’re the center of the universe - the fact of the matter is that only a few hundred people have seen it and care... I know this cause I see the stats on Facebook and my review. Even when mike posted my interview with him it only racked up some 10000 views... this is reality.

So I’m not sure any of this matters.

I was thinking the same thing. How many Dream Theater fans are following the drama? How many of them post on message boards and follow Twitter? And for the ones who aware of the drama, how many of them care enough to not check out Sons of Apollo? I'm going to see Dream Theater in November with a friend who has been to a few concerts and he doesn't know anything about Sherinian & Portnoy's comments. He probably doesn't even know about Sons of Apollo.

[Skeever]

To some degree, the way I perceive it, is that the two seem to view us as "musical morons" who will eat up anything that has odd meters and fast solos in it. Because, how can we have taste if we still listen to that unspeakable band that MP was once a part of?!
So, DS and MP form a band to pander to the likes us, but because neither of them even is into prog all that much these days, it becomes a shoehorned effort. Us musical morons pick up on that, but between their incredulity and fragile egos, they quickly conclude that we are indeed the morons they took us for, only for a different reason.
Tldr: "We pandered to morons but they didn't like it, which shows they're even more moronic than we thought."

Yup, I agree with this assessment. And I think the other fatal tragedy here is that MP doesn't seem to "get" who his real fans are. Some of the people who wish he'd stop with this "with us or against us" attitude? The very same who attend his special TSF shows, his cruises, buy his albums and box sets, etc. In a way, it's starting to feel like the inverse of Never Enough has become true: it's no longer that fans are ungrateful for MP, it's that no fan can ever live up to the fanboy that MP wants. It's not enough to spend hundreds of dollars per year seeing the man's various projects; all Mike knows or cares about is that one time you gave said one of his projects wasn't your cup of tea.
l

[rumborak]

Interacting with fans on social media is a bit like "Wargames": the only winning move is to not play. The moment you start discussing publicly with a fan, you implicitly stepped down from the pedestal that a lot of people had put you on in their minds. That already is a huge loss on the side of the artist.

[Sycsa]

Yeah, "don't meet your heroes" is a pretty good saying, which is often true. Interacting with them on social media is a version of that.

[The Walrus]

Honestly the stuff over the last few days has made me reconsider even buying Mike's stuff in the future, SOA related or not. His ego's inflated like a balloon over the last few years and it really shows with his promotion of SoA. Getting tired of it and I don't feel like feeding his ego with my hard earned and precious dollars.

Question: what is the difference - morally, not legally, which should be obvious - between listening to a leaked album and listening to it for free on a platform like Spotify? I pay for Spotify but even if I wasn't I'd be able to listen to Psychotic Symphony for free and they'd be making a fraction of a penny that way, I'd have to play the album a thousand times for them to see any monetary compensation.

[antigoon]

Up to you and your God, I guess.

[MirrorMask]

Well, Spotify, for the little next to nothing that it makes, is endorsed by the band and the label, or at the very least accepted and agreed upon, the album floating around on the net is not.

[gzarruk]

Yup, I agree with this assessment. And I think the other fatal tragedy here is that MP doesn't seem to "get" who his real fans are. Some of the people who wish he'd stop with this "with us or against us" attitude? The very same who attend his special TSF shows, his cruises, buy his albums and box sets, etc. In a way, it's starting to feel like the inverse of Never Enough has become true: it's no longer that fans are ungrateful for MP, it's that no fan can ever live up to the fanboy that MP wants. It's not enough to spend hundreds of dollars per year seeing the man's various projects; all Mike knows or cares about is that one time you gave said one of his projects wasn't your cup of tea.

That's a very interesting point, Skeever. I think you're right. Mike has replied with sarcastic/satirical comments and tweets to fans that asked him something on social media and he answered something like "If you were a true fan, you WOULD know or do this or that".

For example, I remember that someone asked him a while ago if the TSF shows were going to be recorded for a future release, since he, and many many many others, myself included, didn't live anywhere near the places/countries that had been announced for the tour. Mike replied with something along the lines of "This is a once in a lifetime event, and if you were a true fan, you would do whatever it takes to catch one of these shows" (Not his exact words).
Some people just can't afford to travel to another country or get in a cruise for a few days just to see Mike (or any other artist) perform a show, and that doesn't mean they aren't true fans or anything like that. It's just silly.

[Stadler]

I know for me, I've long grown out of the "battle" mentality of music.  I'm not a standard bearer for METAL! or PROG! and I can easily listen to Harry Styles and Sons of Apollo with no irony or no confusion.   My last five shows are Gene Simmons, Iron Maiden, Neal Morse, Shattered Fortress, and Night Ranger.   

I was at Night Ranger Friday - by myself (it was a fairground, and my wife and step-daughter were elsewhere in the fair) - and I can remember when Sing Me Away came on and some old fat guy (not me) and his girl looked over at me and we traded horns and cheesy guitar faces, but we were having a fucking BLAST.  That's what it's about.  Not this nonsense about what's a "real" review or not.   I don't give a flap about apps and wizardry and cheese.  Jack Blades is a walking block of cheddar as far as that goes, and yet there were 5,000 people (at least) rockin' out like it was a Beatles reunion.   I just want good, honest, heart-felt music.   

[Stadler]

Honestly the stuff over the last few days has made me reconsider even buying Mike's stuff in the future, SOA related or not. His ego's inflated like a balloon over the last few years and it really shows with his promotion of SoA. Getting tired of it and I don't feel like feeding his ego with my hard earned and precious dollars.

Question: what is the difference - morally, not legally, which should be obvious - between listening to a leaked album and listening to it for free on a platform like Spotify? I pay for Spotify but even if I wasn't I'd be able to listen to Psychotic Symphony for free and they'd be making a fraction of a penny that way, I'd have to play the album a thousand times for them to see any monetary compensation.

I think MirrorMask is saying this, but it's Flying Colors' art, and their choice to release it and how it gets released.  There are quality issues (perhaps) and if FC says "Spotify is within our marketing plan", it's their call.   Perhaps the version you get is the same, perhaps it's not.   I would hate to think that I worked on a record for months and someone doesn't like it because it sounded like shit on a 128Kbps burn.   Yeah, of course that could happen otherwise, but you said MORALLY.  And MORALLY, I would prefer to listen to the album in as reasonably close a fashion to what the artist intended as I can.  And officially sanctioned outlets are a way of doing that. 

[Stadler]

Yup, I agree with this assessment. And I think the other fatal tragedy here is that MP doesn't seem to "get" who his real fans are. Some of the people who wish he'd stop with this "with us or against us" attitude? The very same who attend his special TSF shows, his cruises, buy his albums and box sets, etc. In a way, it's starting to feel like the inverse of Never Enough has become true: it's no longer that fans are ungrateful for MP, it's that no fan can ever live up to the fanboy that MP wants. It's not enough to spend hundreds of dollars per year seeing the man's various projects; all Mike knows or cares about is that one time you gave said one of his projects wasn't your cup of tea.

That's a very interesting point, Skeever. I think you're right. Mike has replied with sarcastic/satirical comments and tweets to fans that asked him something on social media and he answered something like "If you were a true fan, you WOULD know or do this or that".

For example, I remember that someone asked him a while ago if the TSF shows were going to be recorded for a future release, since he, and many many many others, myself included, didn't live anywhere near the places/countries that had been announced for the tour. Mike replied with something along the lines of "This is a once in a lifetime event, and if you were a true fan, you would do whatever it takes to catch one of these shows" (Not his exact words).
Some people just can't afford to travel to another country or get in a cruise for a few days just to see Mike (or any other artist) perform a show, and that doesn't mean they aren't true fans or anything like that. It's just silly.

I agree with this.  I consider myself a "true fan" in the knowledge sense of the word, and the dedication sense of the word, but I missed a LOT of the epic shows in the New York area (Score, Radio City) because I was living in the south, with a newborn, working full time and going to school at night.  It just wasn't in the cards to drop everything, spend money I didn't have, to cavort to NYC to see a concert.   And I refuse to acknowledge that that somehow dictates what level "fan" I am.

[Sycsa]

Question: what is the difference - morally, not legally, which should be obvious - between listening to a leaked album and listening to it for free on a platform like Spotify? I pay for Spotify but even if I wasn't I'd be able to listen to Psychotic Symphony for free and they'd be making a fraction of a penny that way, I'd have to play the album a thousand times for them to see any monetary compensation.

I think that pirating music isn't really frowned upon by most artists, especially regarding markets like Eastern Europe, for instance. Dream Theater just did 2 shows in Romania. Without piracy in the 90s, early 2000s, and without YouTube, it's a safe bet that they wouldn't have such a big market in these post-eastern bloc countries. The band themselves see way more money from these markets this way. Morally speaking, that's the best case scenario, a win-win for everybody. If a band brings me joy, I'll make sure to support them financially too.


Also, this FC promo is hysterical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwkg2waXKFA "the eagerly awaited record, that nobody anticipated, became the unprecedented album that everybody wasn't expecting." If only MP decided to promo SoA in a similar fashion. It also would have been way more in-line with the "cool rocking dudes" image they're trying to push.