Stadler... I no longer can be bothered to address most of your comments. As I said, neither of us is ever going to convince each other of their perspective - which, btw, I don't believe I've ever said you're wrong for having it.. though you constantly criticize how I frame my positions/statements/arguments. I will address this however ...
You "can't be bothered"? Sanctimony is so unbecoming. Please. And you're trying to convince us you're fair and you've considered all sides?
Look, don't conflate action with ideas, and don't conflate government interaction for personal accountability. I'm not at all saying that the girl being attacked can't fight back. I'm saying that if someone says to her "I'd love to fuck you" she can't resort to clawing their eyes out.
But if a guy is following a woman at night in Central Park, yelling at her that he's gonna rip her dress off, and beat the shit out of her, and rape her, and comes close enough to grab her, then what? She's just supposed to do nothing and wait until the action happens?
Ideas lead to actions. People standing up to horrific and hateful ideas/intentions is not to be lumped in with those spreading and conducting the hateful ideas/intentions.
Ugh, this is complicated and is considered under the law. Yes, that woman CAN under certain circumstances fight back, but it's not because of the "hate speech" aspect of it. It's because the totality of the circumstances are such that she might reasonably feel her person is in imminent danger. That has little to do with the ACTUAL speech, and those same words, on a billboard, or in some other context, might not elicit the same reaction. Similar to the scenario that the police often find themselves in. If I'm in the police station, and the officer asks for my address or whatever (something benign, and not germaine to any crime) and I reach in my pocket to pull out my wallet, I'm likely not to be shot and if I am the cop doesn't have a great excuse. But if he is standing in front of me, weapon drawn, and I'm standing over an unconscious body, and he says "HANDS IN THE AIR!" and I reach into my pocket, I'm taking a bullet, believe you me, and I don't have a legal argument in the world that can help me.
You don't get to proximate a picture of some old smelly fuck giving a Hitler salute to someone in their bedroom in their slippers feeling "in imminent danger" because they happen to be minority or jewish or muslim or whatever.
And again, stop with the blurring of lines; I'm not at all saying don't stand up to people. It depends what you mean by "stand up". That can't include:
- preventing them from speaking to begin with;
- physically harming them while they speak;
- killing them for their ideas
It can AND SHOULD include:
- understanding the difference between words and actions;
- having your own rally to show an alternate point of view;
- teaching your children how to live with love not hate;
- giving your business to companies that espouse those principles that you hold dear;
- understanding the root of this anger and why it might manifest;
- DON'T exacerbate the circumstances by amplifying these messages and giving them purchase;
- (not individual, but for the collective) aggressively prosecute those ACTIONS that cross the line
I'm sure there are others.