Author Topic: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)  (Read 2364 times)

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Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2023, 06:54:02 AM »
How far along are you in reading the Bible? reading it is interesting not only to find out what's actually in there, but what actually isn't. I'm probably not qualified to answer since I'm one of the many who did not read the entire thing, but as far as I remember, there's surprisingly very little about the devil in the actual Bible.

In the beginning there's the infamous talking snake of course, but I don't think it's ever identified as the devil. And then "Satan" shows up to tempt Jesus in the desert where "satan" in the context means "adversary", and somehow became a proper name for the devil.

I would not be surprised if what we know, or what we think we know about the fall of Lucifer, comes also from Milton's Paradise Lost, and not the Bible. There are many things about religion that we assume from common knowledge or, dare I say, "pop culture". There's probably way more about Hell in Dante's Divine Comedy than in the actual Bible, where if I remember correctly there's just a mention of the Genna as a place of hellfire and torment and not much more.

Also the appearance of the devil himself - if you picture him with hooves, horns and a pitchfork, that's just because they gave him the trait of old pagan gods that were meant to be eradicated from people's ways and culture once christianity took over. The horns are really the ones of the god Cernunnos, which in turn got them from the deer, one of the most important animals of the forest. The pitchfork is Poseidon's trident, and the hooves are the hooves of Pan. All pagan gods that were associated with the devil to eradicate them, or at the very least, give negative connotations to those symbols.

Again, I'm one of those who never read the Bible front to back so probably I'm missing something, but as far as I remember, what we know about "the devil" comes 20% from the actual religious texts, and 80% from "pop culture" for lack of a better term.

Pretty much all of this.

As for the question: "Did Lucifer fall before adam and eve?"

Presumably, yes. But, this brings up a much larger (and previously unmentioned point)–I , like a lot of churchgoers, had the benefit of additional contextualizing via Sunday morning sermons, 12 years of religious studies (in school), etc.

The bible, in and of itself, is best thought of as a foundational text. Without the benefit of all the times a Priest would speak about a specific passage for twenty minutes, I fear much of what I read would've failed to register.

To that point, in addition to this thread, I would strongly recommend you check out one of the numerous resources that have been mentioned in this thread. Be it a podcast or a youtube series, some sort of companion program may really help ensure that your mission is a success.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2023, 07:46:32 AM »
Ok here goes a question,

Did Lucifer fall before adam and eve? If so, what exactly was his grievance. Or was it more just that he thought he could be above God? 

I guess all these years I thought he rebelled as he felt man was favored more over the angels?
This is getting close to a theological question, a belief question, not a "Bible as a piece of literature" question, and as such would be better served in P/R.  This is not really the right place to discuss matters of belief, as there is no one answer, there is only what different people believe.

MirrorMask makes a great point on what the Bible DOESN'T include.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2023, 09:16:13 AM »
Sorry

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2023, 09:18:44 AM »
Sorry

What are you apologizing for? This is a compelling thread :)

Offline bosk1

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2023, 10:24:13 AM »
How far along are you in reading the Bible? reading it is interesting not only to find out what's actually in there, but what actually isn't. I'm probably not qualified to answer since I'm one of the many who did not read the entire thing, but as far as I remember, there's surprisingly very little about the devil in the actual Bible.

In the beginning there's the infamous talking snake of course, but I don't think it's ever identified as the devil. And then "Satan" shows up to tempt Jesus in the desert where "satan" in the context means "adversary", and somehow became a proper name for the devil.

I would not be surprised if what we know, or what we think we know about the fall of Lucifer, comes also from Milton's Paradise Lost, and not the Bible. There are many things about religion that we assume from common knowledge or, dare I say, "pop culture". There's probably way more about Hell in Dante's Divine Comedy than in the actual Bible, where if I remember correctly there's just a mention of the Genna as a place of hellfire and torment and not much more.

Also the appearance of the devil himself - if you picture him with hooves, horns and a pitchfork, that's just because they gave him the trait of old pagan gods that were meant to be eradicated from people's ways and culture once christianity took over. The horns are really the ones of the god Cernunnos, which in turn got them from the deer, one of the most important animals of the forest. The pitchfork is Poseidon's trident, and the hooves are the hooves of Pan. All pagan gods that were associated with the devil to eradicate them, or at the very least, give negative connotations to those symbols.

Again, I'm one of those who never read the Bible front to back so probably I'm missing something, but as far as I remember, what we know about "the devil" comes 20% from the actual religious texts, and 80% from "pop culture" for lack of a better term.

^There's a great deal more than the examples you mention, but you are essentially correct on the bigger point that, relatively speaking, there isn't much, and most of what people think they know about Satan and Hell are from other literature and pop culture myth.  But those two topics aren't really the subject of any of the Biblical writings, and aren't important to the purpose of the narratives, so although we might sometimes be tempted to wonder why there isn't more, it's just not the focus. 

Going to Phoenix87x's actual question in the prior post, the "fall" isn't really a thing, for the most part.  Going back to my previous paragraph, there's a pop-culture mythology (or several) that arose out of a couple of passing statements, but no real detail in the Biblical texts.  (there's a bit more to it than that, but that's the 30 second version) 

I'll try to pop in in the next few days and give some more detailed thoughts on the original topic, as it is something that deserves detailed response, and I'm more knowledgeable than most here about that.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2023, 11:35:06 AM »
Sorry

What are you apologizing for? This is a compelling thread :)
Exactly, nothing for which to apologize. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2023, 01:50:07 PM »
Re: Satan

People here are forgetting the first two chapters of Job which are highly pivotal.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2023, 02:15:36 PM »
Re: Satan

People here are forgetting the first two chapters of Job which are highly pivotal.
I don't know about "people" but I'm not forgetting anything.

But IMO, it goes to what I said earlier about interpretation and beliefs.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2023, 03:03:38 PM »
Re: Satan

People here are forgetting the first two chapters of Job which are highly pivotal.

Forgetting?  Nope.  As I said, "here's a great deal more than the examples you mention..." and that was one of the examples I had in mind.  Doesn't detract from my overall point.

As far as "highly pivotal," I'm not so sure I agree with that because I'm not sure I understand what you mean.  Yes, they provide some great insight, and there are some great takeaways.  But still, in the grand scheme of the story of who/what he is, that still isn't a lot.  So, again, not sure how this somehow changes what has already been said.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2023, 08:18:09 PM »
“Skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man (notice…not singling out Job…but “a man”…any man) has he will give in behalf of his soul.”

God had this included because it was important. Satan’s challenge involves ALL of us. He implies in these first two chapters that Job only serves God, not out of love, but because of what he gets in return. In essence, accusing God of buying off Job and accusing Job (and by implication, ANY man) of not loving God at all.

It also shows that the source of bad things is NOT God, but Satan’s.  Job 2:7 points out that Satan (not God) was the one causing the horrible things to happen and make it look like it was coming from God in order to try and get Job to curse God.

He uses many of the same tactics today. He causes trials and implicates God as the cause in an effort to turn people against God. And he’s actually been largely successful at that. This is harmony with James 1:13 which states that God doesn’t “tempt” anyone. (Although it’s interesting to note that in the original Greek, the literal meaning is “tries” (i.e. “he tries no one”)

So ya…I would call that very pivotal.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2023, 11:43:18 PM »
1.  That discussion is not appropriate to this thread and belongs in PR.

2.  It has very little to do with the point at hand.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2023, 11:50:25 PM »
1.  That discussion is not appropriate to this thread and belongs in PR.

2.  It has very little to do with the point at hand.

Ugh…ok. Fine. 

I love you Bosk, I’m just frustrated because I feel like I tried to stick to the facts of the narrative. But you are the boss here and I respect your leadership to this forum.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #47 on: June 30, 2023, 08:01:19 AM »
1.  That discussion is not appropriate to this thread and belongs in PR.

2.  It has very little to do with the point at hand.

Ugh…ok. Fine. 

I love you Bosk, I’m just frustrated because I feel like I tried to stick to the facts of the narrative. But you are the boss here and I respect your leadership to this forum.
Just from my perspective, when you throw in asides like "and by implication, ANY man", you are no longer sticking to the facts of the narrative, and introducing personal interpretation.  Which is one of the things that would belong in P/R instead of in this thread.

IMO and with all due respect (which is a lot, my friend).
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Offline Architeuthis

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #48 on: June 30, 2023, 10:26:23 AM »
1.  That discussion is not appropriate to this thread and belongs in PR.

2.  It has very little to do with the point at hand.

Ugh…ok. Fine. 

I love you Bosk, I’m just frustrated because I feel like I tried to stick to the facts of the narrative. But you are the boss here and I respect your leadership to this forum.
Just from my perspective, when you throw in asides like "and by implication, ANY man", you are no longer sticking to the facts of the narrative, and introducing personal interpretation. 
Not sure how that was a personal interpretation.  He was just stating what the first couple of chapters in Job sais.  Very interesting part of the scriptures if you ask me. 

I also find it fascinating how the Bible has survived the test of time.  There have been countless efforts to try and
supress it throughout the ages, yet it is now the world's number 1 best seller and also the most widely and freely distributed book in the world.  That's quite remarkable in itself.
To the original poster, It's definitely worth checking into even from a literary perspective.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #49 on: June 30, 2023, 11:14:11 AM »
1.  That discussion is not appropriate to this thread and belongs in PR.

2.  It has very little to do with the point at hand.

Ugh…ok. Fine. 

I love you Bosk, I’m just frustrated because I feel like I tried to stick to the facts of the narrative. But you are the boss here and I respect your leadership to this forum.
Just from my perspective, when you throw in asides like "and by implication, ANY man", you are no longer sticking to the facts of the narrative, and introducing personal interpretation. 
Not sure how that was a personal interpretation.  He was just stating what the first couple of chapters in Job sais.  Very interesting part of the scriptures if you ask me. 
Of course it's interesting.  Job is one of my favorite books of the Bible.

But it's his personal interpretation that it implies that it applies to any, or every, man.  In the actual text, it's a story about Job, not everyone.  It's not a general book, but a very specific one. 
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #50 on: June 30, 2023, 12:00:23 PM »
Well, that’s why I was pointing to the exact narrative. Satan didn’t single out Job in his claim. That is a fact of the narrative.

EDIT - when I used the term “implied”… I wasn’t implying anything into the narrative. The text itself uses the term “a man”…thus it is the speaker himself, not the reader, making the implication.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #51 on: June 30, 2023, 12:19:00 PM »
I may have misunderstood which point you were making.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2023, 03:43:00 PM »
I'll say it because it hasn't been mentioned, but much of what we have seen about demons and a revolt against God comes from the Book of Enoch, a very early apocryphal book (book not included in the Bible) that both ancient Jews and Christians were aware of but rejected. Still its a very interesting ancient source of literature dealing with this topic at length (maybe the earliest?)

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2023, 10:03:37 AM »
I'll say it because it hasn't been mentioned, but much of what we have seen about demons and a revolt against God comes from the Book of Enoch, a very early apocryphal book (book not included in the Bible) that both ancient Jews and Christians were aware of but rejected. Still its a very interesting ancient source of literature dealing with this topic at length (maybe the earliest?)
The Book of Enoch is an interesting read.  I'm not sure that I would agree that "much" about demons and revolt against God comes from there, just because probably less than 1% of all Christians have even heard of it, much less actually read it, so I don't see it as being all that influential.

But there is definitely something there.
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Offline Skeever

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2023, 10:13:58 AM »
Interesting. I would assume that it was one of the sources that Milton, etc., would have been drawing from. But maybe not.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2023, 02:38:46 PM »
Interesting. I would assume that it was one of the sources that Milton, etc., would have been drawing from. But maybe not.
Milton was largely enamored with himself. 
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #56 on: July 21, 2023, 05:31:02 AM »
Does anyone know if the Bible is available in the original language it was written? And if so, what language was it?

Thanks

Offline jammindude

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #57 on: July 21, 2023, 02:39:20 PM »
Does anyone know if the Bible is available in the original language it was written? And if so, what language was it?

Thanks

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, with parts in Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Greek.

I have an inter linear version that does a side by side comparison with an English translation next to a word for word Greek translation. But it only highlights the challenges in translation. Syntax and sentence structures are often completely different between languages.

There’s a fantastic book called Truth in Translation by Jason DeBuhn (a Professor at Northern Arizona University) where he discusses the challenges in translation and compares the original languages vs a few modern English texts as examples. Excellent book. Highly recommended.
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Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2023, 05:29:52 PM »
very interesting. Thank you

Online hunnus2000

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2023, 06:03:47 AM »
Does anyone know if the Bible is available in the original language it was written? And if so, what language was it?

Thanks

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, with parts in Aramaic. The New Testament was written in Greek.

I have an inter linear version that does a side by side comparison with an English translation next to a word for word Greek translation. But it only highlights the challenges in translation. Syntax and sentence structures are often completely different between languages.

There’s a fantastic book called Truth in Translation by Jason DeBuhn (a Professor at Northern Arizona University) where he discusses the challenges in translation and compares the original languages vs a few modern English texts as examples. Excellent book. Highly recommended.

I would like to add that yes, the New Testament was translated into Greek because most of the population around the area of the events could not read or write. In fact, there are original manuscripts of the writings but they are far from complete as Father Time has withered them away to dust and ashes. How do we know this? The story of "let he who cast the first stone" was likely made up by some scribe who when translating an incomplete passage thought, 'yeah this is what Jesus would do' because the story literally doesn't exist.

If you want to review accurate information of the contents of the bible and how it was assembled then look into - Bart Ehrman, Robert Price or Richard Carrier - for starters.

Offline Phoenix87x

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Re: Scripture learning thread (not arguing/debating)
« Reply #60 on: July 30, 2023, 11:05:03 AM »
Very nice service this morning. The topic was psalm 66

My take away was that although we may find it difficult to endure the test of suffering and sacrifice, ultimately it forges us into a stronger person. If anyone else has any other thoughts they would like to contribute, I would enjoy reading them.

Also, does has anyone here read the Bhagavad Gita, The Verdas or the Lotus sutra? If not cool, I just was looking for some guidance on those as well.