NBA thread 2017-18 v. I dub thee champions

[bosk1]

But I think the point is a legitimate one:  that that roster doesn't even sniff the playoffs without LeBron, whereas with him, they are in the NBA finals.  What's the disagreement?  That seems pretty accurate to me.  I'm not following you.

[TAC]

But I think the point is a legitimate one:  that that roster doesn't even sniff the playoffs without LeBron, whereas with him, they are in the NBA finals.  What's the disagreement?  That seems pretty accurate to me.  I'm not following you.

Maybe I'm not putting it into words properly.

Well, take away every team's best player. Then reseed the league. You still don't think this group of Cavs make the playoffs?

Straight up without Lebron, and leaving every other team alone, give the Cavs a decent coach and they could be a bubble team.

[jingle.boy]

I hate this narrative about Lebron leading a bunch of clowns to the Finals. The Celtics have been getting killed on talk radio about choking against this group. I don't buy it, I mean both teams were brutal offensively in Game 7. Yes, it was definitely a game the Celtics could've won, but they didn't. It's not like Lebron scored 70 of the Cav's 79 points. But he did control the game when the Celtics couldn't get a grasp on it.

I think the margins, especially in the East are so small.

Maybe LBJ didn't drag them thru game 7, but he very much did against Indiana, Games 1-3 against Toronto, and the entire series against the Cs.  Look at his PPG vs Love (the #2 PPG):

Indiana - 34.4 / 11.4 ; LBJ was 36% of total points + 7.7 Assists/Game
Toronto - 34.8 / 20.5; LBJ was 29% of total points + 11.3 Assists/Game
Boston - 33.6 / 12.5; LBJ was 34% of total points + 8.4 Assists/Game

Love was the only other player against Indiana and Boston to average double-digit ppg.

The only time his team-mates stepped to make an offensive difference in victory was in Game 2 and 4 vs Toronto, and some sporadic help in a couple of the Indiana wins.  I mean ffs... he scored 46 of Cleveland's 100 in one of the wins against Indiana.

There is zero balance to the team offensively.

[bosk1]

Yes, but that doesn't count because...well...it makes it look like people other than TAC are right.

[TAC]

Why, do I look right??


I'm just not sure how to word it.

I'll get back to you..

[TAC]

I made a chart using Basketball Reference

I listed the teams in order of record, listed their top scorer, The top scorer's PPG/Team PPG, Top Scorer's % of Team PPG, and the last column shows the Team PPG minus each team's leading scorer.


1. Toronto  Derozen 23/112 20.5%   89
2. Boston  Irving 24/104   23.1%   80
3. Philly  Embid 23/110    20.9%   87
4. Clev  James  28/111     25.2%   83
5. Ind  Oladipo  23/105    21.9%   82
6. Miami Dragic 17/103     16.5%   86
7. Milwauk Ant 27/106      25.4%   79
8. Wash Beal  23/106       21.7%   83
9. Det Griffin 20/104      19.2%   84
10. Char Walker  22/108    20.4%   86
11. NYK  Porz  22/104      21.2%   82
12. Brook Lin 18/106       17.0%   78
13. Chic Mirotec  17/103   16.5%   86
14  Orl Fournier 18/103    17.5%   85
15. Atl  Schroder 19/103   18.4%   84


The Cavs finished the season scoring the second most PPG. Labron was the East's Leading scorer in PPG, and second to Giannis in % of Team PPG.
Subtracting out each team's leading scorer, the Cav's are T-8 in Team PPG.

Shuffling the deck on Team Leading Scorer's, Lebron would take any team to the Finals.

I am not trying to in anyway diminish Lebron's achievements, and if it comes accross that way, that is not my intention.

My original point was that the rest of the Cavs do not suck. They are an average team. Nothing more, and nothing less.

[KevShmev]

An average lottery team, maybe.

Just wait till next year when James is playing somewhere else.  I will set the Cavs over/under win total now at 30...and I will take the under.

[TAC]

That's next year.

He's the reason they're there, no doubt. But everything goes through him, as it would on any other team. The current Cavs, with a better coach, would be a bubble team.

Let me scratch that.. Kev, they could very well be a lottery team next year if nothing changes. Maybe the get a real coach that actually installs a system, and the #8 pick pans out...

[bosk1]

I don't think removing every team's top player is a valid way to compare.  Swap LeBron with the top player on any other team, and I don't think you DO get even a "bubble team" with that iteration of the Cavs.  But even if they are, at best, a "bubble team," a bubble team in the east is NOT a good team.

[TAC]

So with Giannis, the Cavs couldn't get into the playoffs?

[KevShmev]

Not to mention saying "give them a better coach" changes another variable in the equation. I thought it was, "this Cavs team could still make the playoffs with LeBron," and now it's, "this Cavs team could still make the playoffs without LeBron AND if they had a better coach."  I now wait for TAC's next addition to this equation.

Edit: you snuck it in on me before I hit post.

"This cavs team could still make the playoffs without LeBron, if they had a better coach, and if they had Giannis."

[TAC]

I don't think removing every team's top player is a valid way to compare.

Well, that's the research I did because I just wanted to see the remaining Cavs stacked up against everyone else minus their top scorer. It's kind of what I expected. I mean, I'm not ready to do a college thesis on it. I'm just saying that the Cavs are better than they're being given credit for.

Not to mention saying "give them a better coach" changes another variable in the equation.

Without Lebron, Lue is not the coach.

"This cavs team could still make the playoffs without LeBron, if they had a better coach, and if they had Giannis."

Why is that funny? I believe that.

[KevShmev]

It's funny because you basically went from "this team could make the playoffs without LeBron" by repeatedly adding more qualifiers to it.

"This Cavs team could still make the playoffs without LeBron, if they had a better coach, if they had Giannis, and if Magic Johnson comes out of retirement to give them 15 minutes a game."

[bosk1]

I don't think removing every team's top player is a valid way to compare.

Well, that's the research I did because I just wanted to see the remaining Cavs stacked up against everyone else minus their top scorer. It's kind of what I expected. I mean, I'm not ready to do a college thesis on it. I'm just saying that the Cavs are better than they're being given credit for.

Except that having LeBron on the team changes their stats as well.  For example, he is one of the best passers/assisters in the league, and definitely the best in the east, which inflates his teammates' stats.  Another example is that he commands more attention than any other player in the east, which gets his teammates more open looks and easy baskets.  You really can't compare just by taking him out of the equation as if he doesn't exist when his teammates' stats are what they are, in large part, because he is there.

[TAC]

I don't think removing every team's top player is a valid way to compare.

Well, that's the research I did because I just wanted to see the remaining Cavs stacked up against everyone else minus their top scorer. It's kind of what I expected. I mean, I'm not ready to do a college thesis on it. I'm just saying that the Cavs are better than they're being given credit for.

Except that having LeBron on the team changes their stats as well.  For example, he is one of the best passers/assisters in the league, and definitely the best in the east, which inflates his teammates' stats.  Another example is that he commands more attention than any other player in the east, which gets his teammates more open looks and easy baskets.  You really can't compare just by taking him out of the equation as if he doesn't exist when his teammates' stats are what they are, in large part, because he is there.

Well, that's why the first (and only) comparison was to remove every team's best player. Like I said, I'm not digging any deeper. When he's on the floor vs off, etc... Just making a 30,000 foot observation.

I'm just a dude on a couch with an opinion. 

It's funny because you basically went from "this team could make the playoffs without LeBron" by repeatedly adding more qualifiers to it.

The original qualifier included a different coach. 

"This Cavs team could still make the playoffs without LeBron, if they had a better coach, if they had Giannis, and if Magic Johnson comes out of retirement to give them 15 minutes a game."

I agree.

[jingle.boy]

I'm just saying that the Cavs are better than they're being given credit for.

And this is where you're wrong.  They're not.  I'm just looking at their playoff performance.  They are the only team to have one series, let alone TWO, with only 2 players in double-digit ppg.  And the #2 guy barely made double-digits.

Lebron is leading the playoffs in minutes (by 47... almost a full fucking game more than the #2 guy (Rozier) - and Boston played one more game than Cleveland!!!), FG, FGA, FT, FTA, Ast, Points (by 125!), and a shit ton of other advanced stats I have no clue what they mean.  And there is isn't a single one where it's even close.

[bosk1]

TAC's theory just went: 

[jingle.boy]

Rite?  In 18 games, he's 125 points ahead of Durant; 132 ahead of Harden; 261 ahead of Tatum.  To be fair, LBJ has an extra game up on KD and Harden, but still.  Using TAC's methodology and swap Durant or Harden for LeBron, and the Cavs don't even make Game 7 against Indiana.

[bosk1]

Holy crap!  Even remove a "standard" (for LeBron) 40 point game, and he's still 85 points ahead of Durant and 92 ahead of Harden.  Those numbers are insane. 

[contest_sanity]

I watched this Cavs team a lot this season. Replace LeBron with another top 5 player (Durant, Giannis, AD, etc.) and they MIGHT be an 8 seed. However, just a regular all-star (a Horford, a Demar), and nah, they probably don't even make the playoffs. Without LBJ, they have very little creation/playmaking ability at all. I mean, hell, they couldn't break 100 points half the time against Boston WITH LeBron.

That said, I don't think people should be killing Boston. Boston overachieved quite well with no Kyrie and no Hayward. No need to falsely elevate the Cavs squad to affirm that Boston did about as well as could possibly be expected. Yeah, the youngsters kinda blew Game 7, but that was to be expected against LeBron. Tatum balled out, though; Celtics probably win if they fed him more down the stretch rather than continue launching threes.

[King Postwhore]

I felt the same about the 3's.  Problem was the Cavs packed the paint, and dared the C's to hit their 3's and they choked.  Rosier who is normally lights out from behind the ark was affected by the spotlight.

[bosk1]

Interesting article:  https://www.yahoo.com/sports/andre-iguodala-injury-opens-door-164001895.html

It basically makes the point that Iguodala's injury makes the series a lot more interesting, and that is born out by numbers showing that LeBron's and the Cavs' overall efficiency is MUCH greater with Iguodala off the court than on.  They do make the point that Durant and Green can also guard LeBron, but:

But putting Green on LeBron would remove the Warriors’ best help defender from that role. Putting Durant on LeBron would sap Durant’s energy for offense.

I get what they are saying.  But here's the thing with regard to Green:  They don't really need him in the role of "help defender" in this series, IMO.  If he is assigned directly to LeBron, that's fine.  Thompson, McGee, and others can come over to "help" when doubles are needed or whatever.  Shifting and switching is a big part of the W's defense, whether Iguodala is present or not.  And the Cavs have far fewer weapons to worry about outside of LeBron than the past three years.  So I don't think that is an issue.

With regard to Durant, I don't think it is much of an issue either.  He can do just fine without worrying about "sapping his energy for offense."  And the W's can run the offense through Curry just fine, as they most often do anyway, so that Durant can do less at that end. 

Honestly, I don't see Iguodala's absence being a huge factor, despite his value to the team.  I think it was a big issue with Houston.  But the Cavs' offense is far less potent outside of LeBron.  Even if he were to miss the whole series, I don't see it as a huge problem.

[TAC]

TAC's theory just went: 

[Azyiu]

A bit of a long but easy read... these 25 points give the Warriors / Cavs round 4 some unique prospectives.

Cavs-Warriors IV: A rivalry for the ages https://es.pn/2kvJkB7

[Lonk]

Does anyone here believes the whole “The NBA is rigged” idea? I personally don’t, and feel that people who think it’s rigged it’s because they never played the sport, or at least never played organized basketball.

[King Postwhore]

I've never believed in any sport rigged to get 2 teams to the finals be I do believe like the ref scandal in the NBA, single games can be manipulated.

[jammindude]

Does anyone here believes the whole “The NBA is rigged” idea? I personally don’t, and feel that people who think it’s rigged it’s because they never played the sport, or at least never played organized basketball.

 I truly believe the 92 playoffs were rigged.

 My details might be fuzzy because I’m going off a 26-year-old memory.
It was Barkley’s last year and the sonics were young and hungry team who was out playing them every step of the way. Suddenly, every tiny little itty bitty touch foul got called against the sonics. It was the most embarrassing display of officiating I had ever seen in my entire life.

But Barkley got to go to the finals....whatever.

[Azyiu]

As poorly as the Dubs played (or as well as the Cavs played) in the first half, the game is tied at HT... crazy... that being said, I just think the Dubs didn't play with any positive energy at all. They could lose Game 1 if they don't pull themselves together.

[Lonk]

James is on fire

[Lonk]

That’s was an awful call

[Azyiu]

The Dubs just could not get a rebound of any kind... if they lose, they deserve it...

[KevShmev]

Not sure who sucks more tonight, JR Smith or the refs.  Might as well not even try to defend Durant because they call a foul even if it's a clean strip.

[Azyiu]

Not sure who sucks more tonight, JR Smith or the refs.  Might as well not even try to defend Durant because they call a foul even if it's a clean strip.

The Dubs are lucky to have JR Smith on their side, lol! 

[King Postwhore]

Kev, how am I supposed to like LeBron after seeing what he wore walking into the stadium last night?!

Search for it! Lol

[Destiny Of Chaos]

I know the narrative is that LeBron is trying to do the unthinkable with a cast of nobodies, but WOW... who would have thought one of his teammates would make a Seattle Seahawks level blunder at the most crucial part of the game.