Discovering genesis and need your help

[Prog Snob]

Listen to everything until Wind and Wuthering, then stop.

This.

Anything without Gabriel or Hackett isn't worth soiling your ears with.

ori-elias5, these people are fucking with you. They're trying to hog the good music for themselves, but don't let them!  Fight the power!   Duke AND Abacab have neither a Hackett or a Gabriel between them, and they will SMOKE what you've listened to already (except, of course, for Abacab itself, which you've listened to before.  But I digress.).

Steve Hackett may be the single most over-rated guitar player - in terms of his contribution to his "big name band" of any rock guitarist since 1970.

Ouch. I'm not sure what evidence you have for that or what is your basis for comparison.

Well, read what I wrote carefully.  KevSchmev gets it.

Jimmy Page is far more overrated.

Guitar is more than just solos and shining through the rest of the band. Now YOU sound like the snob. 

Not even close.   In my view, Jimmy Page is UNDER RATED.  He WAS Led Zeppelin, arguably the second greatest band in the history of modern rock.  It's interesting that you slag "guitar solos" as not being all that important, then slag "Jimmy Page" as over-rated, when the one knock against him that sticks is that his solos are sloppy.  His production capabilities and his arrangement skills alone  would make him a legend.

It's not at all about solos.  I don't know why this is so hard, or why people have their panties in a wad.   I'm not at all saying Hackett sucks.  It's nothing personal.    All I'm saying is that IN GENESIS, given what he contributed, it's hard to put him in the pantheon of greats.  Genesis is first and foremost a song-writers band, and it's well-documented that his contributions often didn't make the cut.

I slag (interesting word) him because I've heard his live work and it's horrible. Aside from that, there is Plant's caterwauling. It's just unlistenable, though I'll be fair and say that maybe the few bootlegs of theirs I've heard are the only bad ones in existence?    Maybe he is better off composing and producing instead of playing or maybe he should write music that he can play live without it sounding horribly out of tune. Maybe I'm being too hard on the guy. I just don't think he deserves the notoriety he gets. 

As far as Hackett, I'm not saying he's up there with the likes of Alex Lifeson or Steve Howe. I think as far as what he contributed to the band deserves mention. You are right about one thing. Hackett definitely shone more brilliantly with his solo work. Oh, and he did tapping before Eddie Van Hagar the Horrible. So, he deserves credit for that. What's that, Eddie? You disagree?



And nobody has their panties in a wad...except maybe you. You're the one using the upper case words for accentuation. 

[Stadler]

I slag (interesting word) him because I've heard his live work and it's horrible. Aside from that, there is Plant's caterwauling. It's just unlistenable, though I'll be fair and say that maybe the few bootlegs of theirs I've heard are the only bad ones in existence?    Maybe he is better off composing and producing instead of playing or maybe he should write music that he can play live without it sounding horribly out of tune. Maybe I'm being too hard on the guy. I just don't think he deserves the notoriety he gets. 

I thought that too.  And some of the "bigger" gigs they've done in recent years - Live Aid, Atlantic 40th - support that.  But I saw him on the Page-Plant tour and his playing was TRANSCENDENT.   Really, really took the material to another place.  I got it after that show (April 7, 1995; I'm looking at the ticket right now).    Even he'll admit it doesn't happen every night, but when it does... it's magic.

As far as Hackett, I'm not saying he's up there with the likes of Alex Lifeson or Steve Howe. I think as far as what he contributed to the band deserves mention. You are right about one thing. Hackett definitely shone more brilliantly with his solo work. Oh, and he did tapping before Eddie Van Hagar the Horrible. So, he deserves credit for that. What's that, Eddie? You disagree?

I've already conceded that; Alex has stated him as a prime influence, and cops to ripping off some Hackett in parts of The Fountain of Lamneth.

And nobody has their panties in a wad...except maybe you. You're the one using the upper case words for accentuation. 

Wow, okay.  Let's make it personal.  Nice touch.  Really solidifies your argument and makes it credible.     NOT.   

[Prog Snob]

Wow, okay.  Let's make it personal.  Nice touch.  Really solidifies your argument and makes it credible.     NOT.   

That's personal? I didn't know you actually wore panties. Hmmm

[ChuckSteak]

Calm down, boys. 

[Stadler]

Wow, okay.  Let's make it personal.  Nice touch.  Really solidifies your argument and makes it credible.     NOT.   

That's personal? I didn't know you actually wore panties. Hmmm

Now you just look foolish.  Of course I wear panties.   Silk.  Makes the boys feel good, makes the package look even more impressive, and the wife loves it.   Win, win, win.  I was talking about the caps comment.

[Prog Snob]

Wow, okay.  Let's make it personal.  Nice touch.  Really solidifies your argument and makes it credible.     NOT.   

That's personal? I didn't know you actually wore panties. Hmmm

Now you just look foolish.  Of course I wear panties.   Silk.  Makes the boys feel good, makes the package look even more impressive, and the wife loves it.   Win, win, win.  I was talking about the caps comment.

I was just being facetious with that. Hence the emoticon. Hence sounds too much like Pence. I hope I don't piss someone off.

[red barchetta]

when I go through a new band discography it's like a triumph: I am dragging the process to enjoy the most of it: the first discovery is also the most thrilling so I put a lot of meaning for listening to an album for the first time.

I don't spoil it by listening to the good tracks of the band but save it to the first listen of the album.

I love starting from the weaker albums and save the best for last.
this way I have always something to wait for, the best is always ahead of me.

So... for this cause, i need your assistance to sort them in the best way.

I have already heard (from best to least):

And then they were three
Tresspass
Abacab
Calling all stations
From genesis to revolution

I know that the answer will probably be that Selling England to save for last therefore I am more interested in the other albums spots for example The lamb lies down in Broadway or Foxtrot or A trick of the tail, Invisible Touch or Genesis? Nursery crime or Duke?

You got it.

Much appreciate it!

I guess you're young if Genesis is new to you. You have quite a lot of albums to listen to. To me it's all very good to basically masterpiece albums from the third album to Abacab included except And then there were three.

The first album of Genesis I ever listened to was A trick of the tail and it is my favorite. Then I remember buying Abacab a few years later beçause I had been glued to A trick of the tail only. I bought Abacab when it was released in '81 and got to the show. After that I bought everything in order starting with their first album. I saw them again in '84. I wish I had seen them in their creativity prime.

[red barchetta]

I think Hackett's contribution is pretty important. His playing and song writing. When you listen to And then there were three, it's another world. Simply not filling his spot after he left.  I saw him live 3 years ago. Just brilliant. Low profile as usual but clearly very technical and difficult guitar playing.

Led Zep, The song remains the same, one of the best albums live ever. Jimmy Paige is awesome and at the top of his game. Ya, I have seen footage of him being very sloppy later in his career and always thought that he could not play anymore with too much drugs. But I think he's ok nowadays and his playing is very good.

[Stadler]

I bought Abacab when it was released in '81 and got to the show.

I wish I had seen them in their creativity prime.

You did. 

[romdrums]

I bought Abacab when it was released in '81 and got to the show.

I wish I had seen them in their creativity prime.

You did.

Stads is right.  If I could go back in time without seriously disrupting the space/time continuum, it would be to see Genesis live on any of the Abacab, Three Sides Live, Mama or Invisible Touch tours. 

[Prog Snob]

I bought Abacab when it was released in '81 and got to the show.

I wish I had seen them in their creativity prime.

You did. 

  Now you're just dismissing everything from the 70s.  Now I know you must be joking.

[Stadler]

I bought Abacab when it was released in '81 and got to the show.

I wish I had seen them in their creativity prime.

You did. 

  Now you're just dismissing everything from the 70s.  Now I know you must be joking.

No, not really; I think the run from Selling... through 3SL was the sweet spot.     The Lamb, Wind, and Abacab are my top three records.    Not dismissing anything, really, just not letting someone else dismiss what to me is a far more creative and fertile period than it gets credit for.  I often argue - when I'm in my "argue for the sake of arguing" mode - that "Abacab" is their second most "progressive" record behind The Lamb.   

[Fixed editing error]

[ytserush]

Listen to everything until Wind and Wuthering, then stop.

This.

Anything without Gabriel or Hackett isn't worth soiling your ears with.

ori-elias5, these people are fucking with you. They're trying to hog the good music for themselves, but don't let them!  Fight the power!   Duke AND Abacab have neither a Hackett or a Gabriel between them, and they will SMOKE what you've listened to already (except, of course, for Abacab itself, which you've listened to before.  But I digress.).

Steve Hackett may be the single most over-rated guitar player - in terms of his contribution to his "big name band" of any rock guitarist since 1970.

Ouch. I'm not sure what evidence you have for that or what is your basis for comparison.

Well, read what I wrote carefully.  KevSchmev gets it.

Jimmy Page is far more overrated.

Guitar is more than just solos and shining through the rest of the band. Now YOU sound like the snob. 

Not even close.   In my view, Jimmy Page is UNDER RATED.  He WAS Led Zeppelin, arguably the second greatest band in the history of modern rock.  It's interesting that you slag "guitar solos" as not being all that important, then slag "Jimmy Page" as over-rated, when the one knock against him that sticks is that his solos are sloppy.  His production capabilities and his arrangement skills alone  would make him a legend.
 

I was going to stay out of this but I don't think very highly of a lot of his guitar work, but I completely agree with you about his production and arrangement skills.

THAT more than his guitar work for me is where he really shines (Legend as you said). I get sloppy as a style, but I'm not as convinced that's what it was.

[Stadler]

The thing that gets me about Page is that he wasn't ALWAYS sloppy.  He's got some moments - there are a couple on Houses of the Holy, a couple on Physical Graffiti - where he was rather intricate and precise.   So I don't always get the intent of what he was trying to do.  Was it purposeful?  Was it his way of capturing his take on "the blues" (like in "Since I've Been Loving You").    I don't know.   I do know that that tends to be the stuff I like least. 

[LudwigVan]

I'm a huge Page fanboy.  I don't think the intent was for a sloppy style.  I believe Page's intent was for a spontaneous improvisational style, but in so doing, the result often led to sloppiness.   He was not the type of player that slavishly played a solo as it was originally composed, note-for-note (which would obviously breed clean and accurate playing).  I also think he was more interested in achieving certain sound effects, many of which can be called "dirty" sounds, and was willing to sacrifice clean playing in order to attain that overall sound and atmosphere. 

Granted, there were other improvisational players of his time (Beck and Clapton) whose technique clearly outshone his.  But from a song-writing and production standpoint, these guys can't touch what Page did. 

[KevShmev]

I totally agree with that.  Page often sounded like he was on the verge of falling off the cliff, but managed to just not teeter over.  That almost frantic style of playing is a big part of what made him so great.  Sure, we can point to this guy or that guy who can play every solo faster and note for note without messing up, but they don't have the spirit and spontaneity of Jimmy Page.

[TAC]

I'm a huge Page fanboy.  I don't think the intent was for a sloppy style.  I believe Page's intent was for a spontaneous improvisational style, but in so doing, the result often led to sloppiness.   He was not the type of player that slavishly played a solo as it was originally composed, note-for-note (which would obviously breed clean and accurate playing).  I also think he was more interested in achieving certain sound effects, many of which can be called "dirty" sounds, and was willing to sacrifice clean playing in order to attain that overall sound and atmosphere. 

Granted, there were other improvisational players of his time (Beck and Clapton) whose technique clearly outshone his.  But from a song-writing and production standpoint, these guys can't touch what Page did.

Hey, there's a cool Iron Maiden thread going on. Please don't tell me I have to go into the Genesis thread to read your insightful posts! 

[Cool Chris]

TAC, what are you doing here?

[TAC]

TAC, what are you doing here?

LudwigVan is a "must read", so I tracked him down to this thread. He's the one that dubbed me the "DTF Resident Genesis Hater". I figured he was going to give me something interesting about Genesis to think about, but of course, it was a spot on Jimmy Page/Genesis free post. A win win!

[Prog Snob]

I totally agree with that.  Page often sounded like he was on the verge of falling off the cliff, but managed to just not teeter over.  That almost frantic style of playing is a big part of what made him so great.  Sure, we can point to this guy or that guy who can play every solo faster and note for note without messing up, but they don't have the spirit and spontaneity of Jimmy Page.

We can also point to the players with his spirit and spontaneity that don't sound like they're playing with Rett Syndrome.

[Stadler]

I totally agree with that.  Page often sounded like he was on the verge of falling off the cliff, but managed to just not teeter over.  That almost frantic style of playing is a big part of what made him so great.  Sure, we can point to this guy or that guy who can play every solo faster and note for note without messing up, but they don't have the spirit and spontaneity of Jimmy Page.

The whole band was like that.  That's the reason - in my humble opinion - why Bonham is still considered the greatest ever, and why most bands that try to cover Zeppelin sound like ass.    They never get that "elasticity" right.  (It's also why the cover of "Achilles Last Stand" by Temple of the Dog was so friggin' good, because Matt Cameron and Stone Gossard GOT IT RIGHT.)

[KevShmev]

I totally agree with that.  Page often sounded like he was on the verge of falling off the cliff, but managed to just not teeter over.  That almost frantic style of playing is a big part of what made him so great.  Sure, we can point to this guy or that guy who can play every solo faster and note for note without messing up, but they don't have the spirit and spontaneity of Jimmy Page.

We can also point to the players with his spirit and spontaneity that don't sound like they're playing with Rett Syndrome.

Examples?

[Prog Snob]

Just a few to help you along.

Steve Rothery
Brian May
Steve Howe
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa

[Stadler]

Just a few to help you along.

Steve Rothery
Brian May
Steve Howe
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa

One, not sure how a disease that mimics autism and cerebral palsy and almost exclusively in females applies here, but two,  two of the LEAST "spontaneous" guitar players I can name are Steve Rothery and Steve Howe, and Alex Lifeson isn't that far behind.   There's a reason that Yes, Marillion and Rush aren't known as "jam bands".   

Lifeson is the only guitar player on that list that REALLY channels Page, though I'll give you Gilmour, Howe and May in terms of some of the production and "light/dark" aspects to Page's playing.

[ytserush]

Just a few to help you along.

Steve Rothery
Brian May
Steve Howe
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa

One, not sure how a disease that mimics autism and cerebral palsy and almost exclusively in females applies here, but two,  two of the LEAST "spontaneous" guitar players I can name are Steve Rothery and Steve Howe, and Alex Lifeson isn't that far behind.   There's a reason that Yes, Marillion and Rush aren't known as "jam bands".   

Lifeson is the only guitar player on that list that REALLY channels Page, though I'll give you Gilmour, Howe and May in terms of some of the production and "light/dark" aspects to Page's playing.

Wait. Your contention is that Lifeson isn't spontaneous? He might be the most spontaneous member in the band.  Geddy has had to record Alex's solos so he remembers what he just played. And live he's been adding bits before or after many of his solos. That Rush isn't a jam band in the Phish/Umphrey sense (or King Crimson) is true because Rush wanted to preserve what was on the record (at least through Presto anyway.)

I think to a lesser extent Rothery is spontaneous live as time has gone on but it's always in context of the song and/or the original solo.


Don't have anywhere near the comparative experience with live Yes to feel qualified to say anything about Howe live though there are differences on the Seven Shows From '72 live set.

[Mister Gold]

For me, Duke and Lamb are their masterpiece albums.

Sorry for quoting this post well after a month, but I'm inclined to agree. Might also throw in Selling England by the Pound in there with them too, but I'm not entirely sure... The Battle of Epping Forest does tend to drag a bit.

Duke is so streamlined, I can't help but love it. It strikes a perfect balance between the prog and pop rock. It's just a showcase of some damn good songwriting all around.

Meanwhile, Lamb might be a tad bloated at times, but it's the pinnacle of the band's creativity. Plus, I can't help but love the whole surreal odyssey aspect of the album's lyrics. It's Peter Gabriel at his most Peter Gabriel-y. Also, while he's underused here compared to Selling England, some of my favorite Hackett moments are on this album (namely Fly on the Windshield and Anyway).

[Prog Snob]

Just a few to help you along.

Steve Rothery
Brian May
Steve Howe
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa

One, not sure how a disease that mimics autism and cerebral palsy and almost exclusively in females applies here, but two,  two of the LEAST "spontaneous" guitar players I can name are Steve Rothery and Steve Howe, and Alex Lifeson isn't that far behind.   There's a reason that Yes, Marillion and Rush aren't known as "jam bands".   

Lifeson is the only guitar player on that list that REALLY channels Page, though I'll give you Gilmour, Howe and May in terms of some of the production and "light/dark" aspects to Page's playing.

Let's see. I'm not sure what channeling Page has to do with anything. That's the last thing I would want to hear in a guitar player, especially the twang twang flat flat squiggly wiggly twang.

I'm sure a band that isn't considered a jam band wouldn't preclude their guitarist from being spontaneous.

Steve Howe incapable of being spontaneous? Steve Howe unable to whip something up on the spot ten times in a row and have it sound completely unique? What are you smoking? I want some of it. Actually, no I don't. 

[Stadler]

Just a few to help you along.

Steve Rothery
Brian May
Steve Howe
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa

One, not sure how a disease that mimics autism and cerebral palsy and almost exclusively in females applies here, but two,  two of the LEAST "spontaneous" guitar players I can name are Steve Rothery and Steve Howe, and Alex Lifeson isn't that far behind.   There's a reason that Yes, Marillion and Rush aren't known as "jam bands".   

Lifeson is the only guitar player on that list that REALLY channels Page, though I'll give you Gilmour, Howe and May in terms of some of the production and "light/dark" aspects to Page's playing.

Wait. Your contention is that Lifeson isn't spontaneous? He might be the most spontaneous member in the band.  Geddy has had to record Alex's solos so he remembers what he just played. And live he's been adding bits before or after many of his solos. That Rush isn't a jam band in the Phish/Umphrey sense (or King Crimson) is true because Rush wanted to preserve what was on the record (at least through Presto anyway.)

I think to a lesser extent Rothery is spontaneous live as time has gone on but it's always in context of the song and/or the original solo.


Don't have anywhere near the comparative experience with live Yes to feel qualified to say anything about Howe live though there are differences on the Seven Shows From '72 live set.

I might take back the Lifeson; it doesn't come through in the live shows (though I haven't seen them since Roll The Bones) but now that I think about it, I remember reading that many of his solos ARE just off the cuff. I was going for the idea that you captured: that they want to keep it to the record where possible.  I stand by Rothery though; I've seen him now five or six times, and while it's AWESOME, don't get me wrong, it's not as if each show is a new creation.

[OpenYourEyes311]

For me, Duke and Lamb are their masterpiece albums.

Sorry for quoting this post well after a month, but I'm inclined to agree. Might also throw in Selling England by the Pound in there with them too, but I'm not entirely sure... The Battle of Epping Forest does tend to drag a bit.

Duke is so streamlined, I can't help but love it. It strikes a perfect balance between the prog and pop rock. It's just a showcase of some damn good songwriting all around.

Meanwhile, Lamb might be a tad bloated at times, but it's the pinnacle of the band's creativity. Plus, I can't help but love the whole surreal odyssey aspect of the album's lyrics. It's Peter Gabriel at his most Peter Gabriel-y. Also, while he's underused here compared to Selling England, some of my favorite Hackett moments are on this album (namely Fly on the Windshield and Anyway).

yeah, how dare you talk about Genesis in a Genesis thread 

[Stadler]

I'm sure a band that isn't considered a jam band wouldn't preclude their guitarist from being spontaneous.

Steve Howe incapable of being spontaneous? Steve Howe unable to whip something up on the spot ten times in a row and have it sound completely unique? What are you smoking? I want some of it. Actually, no I don't. 

To your first point, of course not.  No two Ritchie Blackmore shows are really the same at this point. 

But as to the second, I've seen Steve Howe about as much as any guitarist here, and he is NOT an improvisationalist.   At least not at the level that the rest of his technique suggests.   I'm going to make your head explode here, but I would take Rick Nielson in that way over Steve Howe any day of the week (there are like 15 or 20 versions of "I Want You To Want Me", because he plays the parts behind the verses differently just about every single time). 

[Prog Snob]

I'm sure a band that isn't considered a jam band wouldn't preclude their guitarist from being spontaneous.

Steve Howe incapable of being spontaneous? Steve Howe unable to whip something up on the spot ten times in a row and have it sound completely unique? What are you smoking? I want some of it. Actually, no I don't. 

To your first point, of course not.  No two Ritchie Blackmore shows are really the same at this point. 

But as to the second, I've seen Steve Howe about as much as any guitarist here, and he is NOT an improvisationalist.   At least not at the level that the rest of his technique suggests.   I'm going to make your head explode here, but I would take Rick Nielson in that way over Steve Howe any day of the week (there are like 15 or 20 versions of "I Want You To Want Me", because he plays the parts behind the verses differently just about every single time).

It doesn't surprise me to see you say that. Nielsen is a bit of an oddball so his spontaneity is probably part of his whole performance.

[Stadler]

Hey geniuses.... did Genesis have an opening act for the Invisible Touch tour in the U.S. in 1987?   I'm thinking not, but does anyone have confirmation of that?

[DragonAttack]

I saw the Thursday night show at Joe Louis Arena, Detroit (three nights in the opening city of the tour).  No warm up.  Here's an article from the Saturday show....no warm up that night as well.

https://theconcertdatabase.com/concerts/genesis-23

[ytserush]

Just a few to help you along.

Steve Rothery
Brian May
Steve Howe
David Gilmour
Alex Lifeson
Mark Knopfler
Frank Zappa

One, not sure how a disease that mimics autism and cerebral palsy and almost exclusively in females applies here, but two,  two of the LEAST "spontaneous" guitar players I can name are Steve Rothery and Steve Howe, and Alex Lifeson isn't that far behind.   There's a reason that Yes, Marillion and Rush aren't known as "jam bands".   

Lifeson is the only guitar player on that list that REALLY channels Page, though I'll give you Gilmour, Howe and May in terms of some of the production and "light/dark" aspects to Page's playing.

Wait. Your contention is that Lifeson isn't spontaneous? He might be the most spontaneous member in the band.  Geddy has had to record Alex's solos so he remembers what he just played. And live he's been adding bits before or after many of his solos. That Rush isn't a jam band in the Phish/Umphrey sense (or King Crimson) is true because Rush wanted to preserve what was on the record (at least through Presto anyway.)

I think to a lesser extent Rothery is spontaneous live as time has gone on but it's always in context of the song and/or the original solo.


Don't have anywhere near the comparative experience with live Yes to feel qualified to say anything about Howe live though there are differences on the Seven Shows From '72 live set.

I might take back the Lifeson; it doesn't come through in the live shows (though I haven't seen them since Roll The Bones) but now that I think about it, I remember reading that many of his solos ARE just off the cuff. I was going for the idea that you captured: that they want to keep it to the record where possible.  I stand by Rothery though; I've seen him now five or six times, and while it's AWESOME, don't get me wrong, it's not as if each show is a new creation.

No, Rothery solos are not "new creations" but there are elements that are different.  If you're looking for new spontaneous creations you want King Crimson.

[njfirefighter]

As far as Genesis goes, recommendations for what to check out or get first I'd say.

*The 1973 Live Black Show album
*Seconds Out
*Selling England by the Pound
A Trick of  the Tail
*Wind and Wuthering
The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway
*Abacab
Foxtrot
*Three Sides Live
Duke

* indicates the top 6 picks