Author Topic: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting  (Read 98971 times)

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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3570 on: November 09, 2018, 10:54:03 AM »
Sam Donaldson isn't here anymore. Jim Acosta is. It's too bad hes not better at this, but it's good that he's not sitting around taking notes and keeping a tab on the off chance that somebody might be inclined to look it up. Fuck, you didn't even know to look for that list of falsehoods, and you actually care.

I'm not sure I understand the second sentence (sincerely, and that's on me, not you)?   
Jim Acosta is?   :lol


I said that somebody needs to be pressing Trump to get beyond his bullshit. You said that people need to let his bullshit stand on its own. I pointed out that there's a running tab of his bullshit that nobody, including you, ever pays attention to. I stand by my initial assessment.

And I don't think he's stupid. I think he's unbelievably shallow, and I think he's emotionally stunted. The only thing he chooses to involve himself with, or even think about, is Donald Trump, and he does so with all of the intellect and reasoning of a twelve year old. He might be the brightest 12 year old to ever live, but that doesn't make him any less ill-equipped to be president.

Hahaha, third sentence.  Me is a good counter. 

Well, I'm in a corner because I don't mean to imply that the Toronto Star isn't a legit news source - it is! - but I was specifically talking about the major players, the usual suspects, in American media (specifically CNN).   Look, I've already said that Trump is the extreme here, but his extremity (uh,  extremeness) doesn't justify CNN abdicating their responsibility and doubling down on their failure to fully execute their role.  I don't disagree at all that the job of the press is to press - pun intended - our leadership and call them out on their bullshit.  I don't think Jim Acosta is doing that, though.   Shep Smith, maybe.  Anderson Cooper, maybe.   Even Chuck Todd, of whom I've been critical in the past, maybe.   But not Jim Acosta.
Well, let's talk about Trump's extremeness. I don't think you'd deny that Trump relies almost entirely on bullshit. He says whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear. Usually with an aim towards embiggening his own status. He then attacks anybody who calls him out on it. He creates fake news so that he can weaponize it to rile up his minions. You often talk about pendulums. All that we see is a reaction to what's happened before. Well, don't you think that maybe Acosta is a reaction to a president who carves up and distorts the traditional role of the media to throw red meat to his followers? You think the media should continue to be used against its own obligation?

Of course he's a reaction, but at what point do we say enough is enough?  This conversation can now diverge a little, taking either a tactical or a strategic angle, but nonetheless, at some point the "well, Bobby's mom let's HIM stay out late!" can't work anymore, and I would argue that we're at that point now. 

I challenge those who don't like Trump - if you REALLY don't like Trump - to do something novel about it.   Part of that is strategic - understanding WHY we have Trump and stop relying on tired tropes that require 62,000,000 people to be "delusional", "racist", "bigoted", "stupid" or some combination of the above, and take some responsibility.   I don't mean "Liberals", or "Democrats", but AMERICANS.   Some of it is tactical, and just recognizing that bad behavior isn't a justification for more bad behavior, and having the awareness and maturity to resist our darker urges, ESPECIALLY when we're ostensibly calling out someone for failing to do just that. 

This part is also to XJ and Harmony too:  I won't call it a "false equivalency" (that seems to be the buzzword of the day) but I would offer that it's a mistake to view Trump and the media as two equal players on either side of a - to steal XJ's metaphor - chequer board.   They're not.   Trump is a transient (his presence is finite, 4 years or 8 years), partisan (by necessity, and I mean that in the broadest sense, not necessarily just "party" or "ideology") figure,  and the press is not.  They are a constant, bipartisan - that is to say, no agenda - entity that is meant to serve as a sort of unofficial check and balance against the government.  To argue that Jim Acosta is right, and that it's all Trump and he deserves what he gets, is akin to saying "yeah, that cop should have shot that kid" or "yeah that woman mouthed off to the cop and he punched her in the face because she deserved it".   They do not play binary roles in a static, closed system.  They are not equals. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3571 on: November 09, 2018, 10:55:10 AM »
but calling it an invasion is done with the intention of conjuring up images of... well... invasions!

Of course. And that wrong.  But read the rest of what I wrote.  NONE OF THIS is an excuse for what Acosta did.  Not because of it's relative worth, but because they aren't related in the slightest. 

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3572 on: November 09, 2018, 10:59:15 AM »
To quote Seth MacFarlane who says it far more eloquently than I:

"Reminder:  Respect is earned not given away.  The president sets the tone, the press responds.  When the president's tone is brutish, adversarial, and paranoid, the press must raise the volume of its response in order to challenge him.  Your issues are with Trump, not Acosta."

Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3573 on: November 09, 2018, 11:00:21 AM »
But not Jim Acosta.


Just curious.  What was it that Jim Acosta asked of the president that was so upsetting to your sensibilities?  Please keep in mind that Acosta was called on by Trump to ask his question and was provided a microphone in order to do so.

Yes, he was, but that's the point:  he DIDN'T ask a question.  He proceeded to grandstand and make his point.   "That's NOT an invasion" is not a question.   I've already written that there are legitimate semantic interpretations where it is an "invasion" (though clearly not the "military-grade" invasion that I imagine Trump was implying).   But Acosta wasn't asking him to explain, he was LECTURING the President.

I'm sorry but you are incorrect.  He asked if he (Trump) thought he had demonized immigrants.  So Trump uses the word "invasion" to gin up his base before the election and yet you are offended when a reporter asks him whether or not he intended to demonize these immigrants.  Ok.

Look, if you want to antagonize me or bait me into something, it's not going to work.  I've written enough on this - I'm sure some would say too much - and so my point is clear.  But to be fair and respectful to you, I'll answer you directly:  I'm not at all offended, even in the slightest, by ANY of this, and to the extent I'm critical of Acosta, it's not at all about any legitimate questions he asked.  That's his job, unequivocally.  REPEAT:  I do not in any way shape or form criticize Acosta to the point he asked a question.  But he didn't stop there, and that's where he went south.  Yelling over other colleagues; lecturing the president on what the proper meaning of "invasion" is (and being wrong, to boot), resisting the relinquishment of the mic (no, it wasn't assault in any way shape or form, but even the gesture was too much in the context of his proper role).  THAT'S what I'm criticizing, and pointing out the ramifications of that in the bigger picture. 

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3574 on: November 09, 2018, 11:01:44 AM »
To quote Seth MacFarlane who says it far more eloquently than I:

"Reminder:  Respect is earned not given away.  The president sets the tone, the press responds.  When the president's tone is brutish, adversarial, and paranoid, the press must raise the volume of its response in order to challenge him.  Your issues are with Trump, not Acosta."

He may be more eloquent (though I don't at all think you're ineloquent) but he's just as wrong.  He's missing the point too; it's not two sides of the same board.  The press and the President are NOT equals here with contrasting/competing agendas.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3575 on: November 09, 2018, 11:09:24 AM »
Trump 11/9/18:  "Well, Matt Whitaker.  I don't know Matt Whitaker."

Trump 10/11/18 on Fox and Friends:  "I can tell you Matt Whitaker is a great guy, I know Matt Whitaker."

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3576 on: November 09, 2018, 11:16:28 AM »
Trump 11/9/18:  "Well, Matt Whitaker.  I don't know Matt Whitaker."

Trump 10/11/18 on Fox and Friends:  "I can tell you Matt Whitaker is a great guy, I know Matt Whitaker."

At this point Trump is like a living embodiment of a Mariah Carey meme


Online El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3577 on: November 09, 2018, 11:23:45 AM »
Sam Donaldson isn't here anymore. Jim Acosta is. It's too bad hes not better at this, but it's good that he's not sitting around taking notes and keeping a tab on the off chance that somebody might be inclined to look it up. Fuck, you didn't even know to look for that list of falsehoods, and you actually care.

I'm not sure I understand the second sentence (sincerely, and that's on me, not you)?   
Jim Acosta is?   :lol


I said that somebody needs to be pressing Trump to get beyond his bullshit. You said that people need to let his bullshit stand on its own. I pointed out that there's a running tab of his bullshit that nobody, including you, ever pays attention to. I stand by my initial assessment.

And I don't think he's stupid. I think he's unbelievably shallow, and I think he's emotionally stunted. The only thing he chooses to involve himself with, or even think about, is Donald Trump, and he does so with all of the intellect and reasoning of a twelve year old. He might be the brightest 12 year old to ever live, but that doesn't make him any less ill-equipped to be president.

Hahaha, third sentence.  Me is a good counter. 

Well, I'm in a corner because I don't mean to imply that the Toronto Star isn't a legit news source - it is! - but I was specifically talking about the major players, the usual suspects, in American media (specifically CNN).   Look, I've already said that Trump is the extreme here, but his extremity (uh,  extremeness) doesn't justify CNN abdicating their responsibility and doubling down on their failure to fully execute their role.  I don't disagree at all that the job of the press is to press - pun intended - our leadership and call them out on their bullshit.  I don't think Jim Acosta is doing that, though.   Shep Smith, maybe.  Anderson Cooper, maybe.   Even Chuck Todd, of whom I've been critical in the past, maybe.   But not Jim Acosta.
Well, let's talk about Trump's extremeness. I don't think you'd deny that Trump relies almost entirely on bullshit. He says whatever he thinks his audience wants to hear. Usually with an aim towards embiggening his own status. He then attacks anybody who calls him out on it. He creates fake news so that he can weaponize it to rile up his minions. You often talk about pendulums. All that we see is a reaction to what's happened before. Well, don't you think that maybe Acosta is a reaction to a president who carves up and distorts the traditional role of the media to throw red meat to his followers? You think the media should continue to be used against its own obligation?

Of course he's a reaction, but at what point do we say enough is enough?
Indeed. It's time to ask that question. At what point does the press say that it's time to stop sitting by and watching as the president bullshits and cons the people they're supposed to report to? You describe a role they're supposed to play, and yet that role has been exploited to its own detriment. I'm saying that it has gone on long enough.

Quote
  This conversation can now diverge a little, taking either a tactical or a strategic angle, but nonetheless, at some point the "well, Bobby's mom let's HIM stay out late!" can't work anymore, and I would argue that we're at that point now. 

I challenge those who don't like Trump - if you REALLY don't like Trump - to do something novel about it.   Part of that is strategic - understanding WHY we have Trump and stop relying on tired tropes that require 62,000,000 people to be "delusional", "racist", "bigoted", "stupid" or some combination of the above, and take some responsibility.   I don't mean "Liberals", or "Democrats", but AMERICANS.   Some of it is tactical, and just recognizing that bad behavior isn't a justification for more bad behavior, and having the awareness and maturity to resist our darker urges, ESPECIALLY when we're ostensibly calling out someone for failing to do just that. 

This part is also to XJ and Harmony too:  I won't call it a "false equivalency" (that seems to be the buzzword of the day) but I would offer that it's a mistake to view Trump and the media as two equal players on either side of a - to steal XJ's metaphor - chequer board.   They're not.   Trump is a transient (his presence is finite, 4 years or 8 years), partisan (by necessity, and I mean that in the broadest sense, not necessarily just "party" or "ideology") figure,  and the press is not.  They are a constant, bipartisan - that is to say, no agenda - entity that is meant to serve as a sort of unofficial check and balance against the government.  To argue that Jim Acosta is right, and that it's all Trump and he deserves what he gets, is akin to saying "yeah, that cop should have shot that kid" or "yeah that woman mouthed off to the cop and he punched her in the face because she deserved it".   They do not play binary roles in a static, closed system.  They are not equals.
Your point about one being transient and the other permanent is very cromulent. I share your concern about what will become of the press after this. There is a flaw in your reasoning, though. You describe the president as partisan by necessity. Certainly correct. You describe the press as bipartisan, which is also correct. However, you also say that it serves to act as a check on power, which by necessity puts it in an adversarial position. The neutral role of the press must also be transient. Which is to say that it can't be solely left or right biased, but both or either as the situation warrants. Wouldn't you agree? We do have a problem here where the media has adopted permanent ideologies where the big picture is concerned. That's not good for America or the press. We're talking about the little picture, though. Grilling the president from the standpoint of the other side is not a problem. I would argue that's an important role.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3578 on: November 09, 2018, 12:33:09 PM »
Indeed. It's time to ask that question. At what point does the press say that it's time to stop sitting by and watching as the president bullshits and cons the people they're supposed to report to? You describe a role they're supposed to play, and yet that role has been exploited to its own detriment. I'm saying that it has gone on long enough.

That time has long passed; there never was NOT a time.   That the press was exploited is a real bellweather issue, though, and core to my argument.  CNN is now saying that the press should boycott the pressers, and had there been no Acosta moment, it would have been exactly a form of what I'm calling for (and I think you are too).  That's how it should be done.  I do think that it's a little too little, a little too late post-Acosta.   I think Chris Wallace is saying something a little similar to what you're saying; he's actually calling this out for what it is:  Trump trying to play master manipulator, and Acosta (and others) falling into line and letting themselves be manipulated.  That in turn feeds the fire, because it emboldens Trump to think that he's actually the mastermind here.  Had Acosta asked his question, then when Trump feinted and dodged, he put up his hand, handed back the microphone, and said "I'm not playing your shell game.", even that would have been better (and sorry for the "Raising Arizona" moment; "Well which is it, young feller?  You want I should hand back the microphone, or keep speaking?   If'n I hand back the microphone, I can't speak.  If I speak, I can't have the microphone!")

Quote
 
Your point about one being transient and the other permanent is very cromulent. I share your concern about what will become of the press after this. There is a flaw in your reasoning, though. You describe the president as partisan by necessity. Certainly correct. You describe the press as bipartisan, which is also correct. However, you also say that it serves to act as a check on power, which by necessity puts it in an adversarial position. The neutral role of the press must also be transient. Which is to say that it can't be solely left or right biased, but both or either as the situation warrants. Wouldn't you agree? We do have a problem here where the media has adopted permanent ideologies where the big picture is concerned. That's not good for America or the press. We're talking about the little picture, though. Grilling the president from the standpoint of the other side is not a problem. I would argue that's an important role.

I was alternately thrilled that you used "cromulent", and chagrined that you mean my argument is ultimately specious.   :)    I don't exactly think of it that way; I don't think being oppositional is necessarily contrary to what we're saying.  You can be oppositional without an agenda (forgive the tautology of the agenda of BEING oppositional).  The system by which the Supreme Court is a check on the Legislature is not agenda driven (though the people that populate those bodies may be).  In other words, I don't disagree with your point, but I don't see it as the problem you do.   Every issue - within reason, let's not burden this with the extremes of reasoned political discourse - has a series of points and counterpoints.   The press ought to hear a position, and ask about the counterpoints.  That ought not be in any way dependent on the attractiveness or not of the issue.  "President Trump; you've spoken of a wall as a means of border security.  How does your plan pay for that wall?"   Legit question.  "Follow-up; President Fox of Mexico has stated officially that he is not willing to provide funding for the wall.  What is your official response?"   "Sen. Sanders; you've spoken of debt relief for certain holders of student loans.   How does your plan pay for that relief?"   Legit question.   "Follow-up: a leading Wall Street journalist has indicated that your transaction tax will have a chilling effect on the transfer of securities.  What is your response?"   None of those questions are easy, none are partisan, none  presuppose a legitimacy (or not) to the underlying issue, none of those presuppose facts not in evidence... all serve as a check on the politician who is 'winging' it and making it up as they go along. 

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3579 on: November 09, 2018, 04:16:46 PM »
https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/07/politics/sessions-resign/index.html
The new guy is yet another example of The Best People(TM): https://theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/09/matthew-whitaker-acting-attorney-general-wpm-scam
It's been gone from the playbook for a while but we're back to the "Witch Hunt", "Russian Hoax" and "17 Angry Democrats" on his Twitter. For the first day in the last 4 weeks there has been not one single mention of the drugged-up freeloading disease-ridden ISIS-infiltrated criminal "invasion" Trump pulled out of his ass to rile up his base before the midterms, nor the PR stunt of sending 5000 US troops to meet it. With the election now over, don't expect to hear about the 'caravan' too frequently, if ever. That particular pile of steaming bullshit* will now have a well-earned rest after a propaganda job well done. Votes cast, plebs not needed for a while, back to the WITCH HUNT!
Noticed this too. Maybe - thanks to the "tremendous success" in the midterms - all of a sudden the Soros-funded terrorist caravan doesn't matter anymore. ::)

Offline Progmetty

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3580 on: November 10, 2018, 02:58:20 PM »
I had a question on my mind for a while, I just watched Trump arrive in France and having a little press conference with Macron. So when Trump says America is protecting Europe and NATO is unfair cause it's mainly U.S. power supplying Europe's defense, etc., what is America defending Europe from? Is Russia the implied possible-attacker here? It might be obvious but I'm just making sure I understand this.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3581 on: November 10, 2018, 04:01:04 PM »
I had a question on my mind for a while, I just watched Trump arrive in France and having a little press conference with Macron. So when Trump says America is protecting Europe and NATO is unfair cause it's mainly U.S. power supplying Europe's defense, etc., what is America defending Europe from? Is Russia the implied possible-attacker here? It might be obvious but I'm just making sure I understand this.
Who cares? At this point why does anybody try to understand what this imbecile says about anything? It's all bullshit.  I see no difference between his pronouncement that we're defending Europe from any number of threats and a description of the dinner he had last night with Elvis, Captain Kirk, and Cardinal Richelieu at our secret base on Neptune. 
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3582 on: November 11, 2018, 06:16:10 AM »
Just want to get this straight: An athlete kneeling in protest about racial relations with police is somehow disrespectful to the military.

But it's OK for Trump to skip the Armistice centennial observance honoring fallen soldiers from the U.S. and the allies because it is raining.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline TAC

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3583 on: November 11, 2018, 06:22:35 AM »
But wasn't it raining really hard?
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3584 on: November 11, 2018, 07:03:16 AM »
But wasn't it raining really hard?
Oh, maybe so.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3585 on: November 11, 2018, 07:06:52 AM »
The raindrops were yuge, believe me.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3586 on: November 11, 2018, 07:21:16 AM »
The raindrops were yuge, believe me.

They were bigly.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Adami

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3587 on: November 11, 2018, 07:38:09 AM »
Guys, it’s actually fine. Turns out he wanted to go and was ready. Last minute he realized that the umbrella was made in China. Trump looked for an American made one but they were probably stolen by the dems. So he didn’t want to offend the soldiers with a Chinese umbrella, and we all know water would make him melt. I support his decision.
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3588 on: November 11, 2018, 12:03:19 PM »
Just for good measure.

Here was Obama on Memorial Day at Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery.


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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3589 on: November 11, 2018, 12:25:10 PM »
Just for good measure.

Here was Obama on Memorial Day at Abraham Lincoln National Cemetery.




Yeah, but that was an American umbrella!

Offline MrBoom_shack-a-lack

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3590 on: November 11, 2018, 12:43:27 PM »
Well Trump has a troubled history with Umbrellas, probably explains why he bailed.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3591 on: November 11, 2018, 04:21:27 PM »
He's probably become extra cautious regarding weather ever since that Stormy situation didn't end that well. :neverusethis:

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3592 on: November 11, 2018, 04:51:56 PM »
We're all so focused on what a horrible monster Acosta is that nobody's really paying much attention to this exchange. This might be the single thing he's done that offends me the most. Since he's been so successful at lying and hiding by dismissing the media as a whole, since they're clearly not allowed to push back, he's moved on to lying and hiding by attacking individual reporters personally. Oh, but yeah, Acosta has demeaned the role of the press.  ::)

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/11/09/trump-press-gaggle-abby-phillip-stupid-question-response-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3593 on: November 12, 2018, 03:43:12 AM »
We're all so focused on what a horrible monster Acosta is that nobody's really paying much attention to this exchange. This might be the single thing he's done that offends me the most. Since he's been so successful at lying and hiding by dismissing the media as a whole, since they're clearly not allowed to push back, he's moved on to lying and hiding by attacking individual reporters personally. Oh, but yeah, Acosta has demeaned the role of the press.  ::)

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/11/09/trump-press-gaggle-abby-phillip-stupid-question-response-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/

Yep. I saw that one last week and feel exactly the same way. “Shameful” isn’t a good enough word to describe that encounter.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3594 on: November 12, 2018, 07:10:43 AM »
We left "shameful" behind a long time ago.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3595 on: November 12, 2018, 07:31:00 AM »
We're all so focused on what a horrible monster Acosta is that nobody's really paying much attention to this exchange. This might be the single thing he's done that offends me the most. Since he's been so successful at lying and hiding by dismissing the media as a whole, since they're clearly not allowed to push back, he's moved on to lying and hiding by attacking individual reporters personally. Oh, but yeah, Acosta has demeaned the role of the press.  ::)

https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2018/11/09/trump-press-gaggle-abby-phillip-stupid-question-response-vpx.cnn/video/playlists/this-week-in-politics/

Yep. I saw that one last week and feel exactly the same way. “Shameful” isn’t a good enough word to describe that encounter.

He's done that a couple times to a couple different reporters.  I don't care for that approach, to be honest.   It's rude, abrasive, and it serves no real purpose other than galvanizing people.   

Doesn't change the assessment of Acosta, though, because as I've pointed out, this isn't a checkers game, with two sides, evenly matched and in equivalent positions.    We are all accountable for our behaviors.   If your 8 year old comes up and punches you in the face, do you then have fair game to punch them back?  Of course not.  So here with the press.   

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3596 on: November 12, 2018, 08:36:31 AM »
How many times are you supposed to let the little shit punch you in the face before you hang him from a hook, though? I'm right there with you that the press should be taking the higher road here, but I can't get behind your embracing of the status quo in a rapidly changing paradigm.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3597 on: November 12, 2018, 08:39:04 AM »
Taking the high road doesn't always help either, especially against people who refuse to travel that same road.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3598 on: November 12, 2018, 08:51:47 AM »
Taking the high road doesn't always help either, especially against people who refuse to travel that same road.
Well, like Stadler I'm not a fan of shifting to the low road to meet your adversary. Yet only a fool would continue down the same road, at the same pace, with the same gate while some asshole slings poo at you like an adderall-addled orangutan.

I can understand why others might not want to rally behind Acosta. That none of the other major outlets would stick up for Stupid Question Girl is about as offensive as the feeble-minded president that assailed her, though. That deserved a unified response, and simply having Shep Smith deliver his token "that wasn't very nice" spiel doesn't quite cut it.
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3599 on: November 12, 2018, 08:53:26 AM »
Taking the high road doesn't always help either, especially against people who refuse to travel that same road.
Well, like Stadler I'm not a fan of shifting to the low road to meet your adversary.

I remember my history teacher in college saying something like "Don't argue with idiots. You'll eventually get on their level and they'll beat you with experience".

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3600 on: November 12, 2018, 08:59:42 AM »
Taking the high road doesn't always help either, especially against people who refuse to travel that same road.
Well, like Stadler I'm not a fan of shifting to the low road to meet your adversary.

I remember my history teacher in college saying something like "Don't argue with idiots. You'll eventually get on their level and they'll beat you with experience".

That could apply to both Trump and the press.

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3601 on: November 12, 2018, 09:48:27 AM »

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3602 on: November 12, 2018, 10:03:53 AM »
How many times are you supposed to let the little shit punch you in the face before you hang him from a hook, though? I'm right there with you that the press should be taking the higher road here, but I can't get behind your embracing of the status quo in a rapidly changing paradigm.

But bud, I'm not at all saying "embrace the status quo".   I'm not claiming to have all the answers - though I think I do have some - but I'm not saying "do nothing".  I'm just saying "don't punch back".   

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3603 on: November 12, 2018, 10:05:40 AM »
Taking the high road doesn't always help either, especially against people who refuse to travel that same road.
Well, like Stadler I'm not a fan of shifting to the low road to meet your adversary. Yet only a fool would continue down the same road, at the same pace, with the same gate while some asshole slings poo at you like an adderall-addled orangutan.

Well, I'm repeating myself now, but I'm not saying go down the same road, at the same pace, with the same gate, etc. etc.    I'm just saying don't fling your own poo back.  I'm repeating this for the opportunity again to say that it's a fallacy to assume that we're dealing with two equal sides playing the same game under the rules with the same amount of risk and reward.   Trump WILL be gone at some point.  Two years, six years, and he's gone.  The press will not.   They have a different agenda, a different set of protocols, and a different end game.   "Flinging poo" is going to have far more negative and lasting consequences when it comes from the Fourth Estate than when it comes from Trump (though it will have them from him as well). 

Quote
I can understand why others might not want to rally behind Acosta. That none of the other major outlets would stick up for Stupid Question Girl is about as offensive as the feeble-minded president that assailed her, though. That deserved a unified response, and simply having Shep Smith deliver his token "that wasn't very nice" spiel doesn't quite cut it.

Don't disagree one bit. 

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #3604 on: November 12, 2018, 04:33:32 PM »
Taking the high road doesn't always help either, especially against people who refuse to travel that same road.
Well, like Stadler I'm not a fan of shifting to the low road to meet your adversary.

I remember my history teacher in college saying something like "Don't argue with idiots. You'll eventually get on their level and they'll beat you with experience".

It's a line attributed - possibly incorrectly - to Mark Twain ("Never argue with an idiot, they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"), which is itself a sentiment from Proverbs 26:4 ("When arguing with fools don't answer their foolish arguments or you will become as foolish as they are").

And it summarises a problem the media and analysts still haven't figured out how to face when it comes to dealing with Donald Trump and his three main propagandists (Sanders, Conway and Giuliani...although Giuliani has been suspiciously quiet since dropping Don Jr in some tricky legal shit back in July) - how to effectively deal with an Administration whose main tactic is to deliberately create an unmanageable volume of misinformation? By telling and retelling such an enormous amount of lies on an almost daily basis (without any consequence for doing so) they create an environment in which reality and truth are robbed of their power, and everything - no matter how obvious - can be challenged ("What you are seeing and what you are reading is not what is happening" - Trump. "We presented alternative facts" - Conway. "Truth is not truth" - Giuliani). It's an old technique used to establish power over people. We (sane people) now have to engage with what this idiot (Trump) has said, even though it is clearly false, because as human beings we have a natural distaste for lies when we hear them and we’re compelled to set things straight, especially when it’s a person with power over our lives who is saying them. The obviousness of the lie is actually part of the power play. "I know that you know what I'm saying is false, and yet here I am asserting my power to say whatever I want, and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it". When you were at school and you said a false thing, you got corrected. When you're the President of the United States, you ban and vilify the people whose job is to correct you. It's all about the power of who gets to describe what is real.

Here’s what I consider to be the media’s mistake when it comes to Trump - every time he gives one of his rambling speeches full of statements that are completely unhinged from any kind of objective reality, sane people rush to fact-check him. Again, it’s a natural human impulse to do this (and one that has fueled much of our discovery as a species, I mean this desire to understand reality and a disdain for what isn’t true) and I don’t blame it. CNN has an ongoing series by Chris Cillizza where he takes apart every lie Trump tells at his rallies, there are usually about 30 or 40 of them each time, and it is blackly funny to read his articles. But here's the thing: fact-checking Donald Trump misses the point, because trying to convince people of the truth isn’t Trump’s aim. His aim is to make everything questionable. "You know why I do it? I do it to discredit you all and demean you all so that when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you". Who said that? Stalin? Goebbels? Mussolini? No. Donald Trump shortly after his election victory in 2016, when answering a question from Lesley Stahl about why he constantly attacks the media. Fact-checking Donald Trump serves no useful aim that I can see, because trying to illustrate the blatant truth to a moron who has a louder and more powerful voice than you (or in Trump’s case, his MAGA minions) is humiliating and disempowering. I'm sure everyone here has either experienced it or witnessed it (a famous example is Richard Dawkins 'debating' the creationist Wendy Wright on the subject of evolution, and it is soul-destroying to watch a world-class intellect like Dawkins being slowly ground down and exhausted by the sheer relaxed idiocy and calm ignorance of this woman, who is for her own part fresh as a daisy at the end of it, because all she's had to do is keep robotically rejecting every fact Dawkins pain-stakingly presents her). Forcing an informed person to argue the obvious to an imbecile degrades them (that Mark Twain quote about an idiot dragging you down to their level), it's a miserable and spirit-crushing experience. The hope is that you'll eventually get exhausted and just give up. After all, how much of your precious and dwindling life do you really want to spend trying to make a willful idiot accept what is unquestionably true? It’s a dehumanizing process, but that's the aim: to dehumanize you and make you into one of those baying animals at a MAGA rally who dutifully chant “Lock Her Up!” on cue every time Il Douche conducts them to.

So that’s the Trumpian Gaslighting Technique in a nutshell. To rob you of the most basic human assumption that you can know what is true (I repeat again the lawyer Giuliani’s phrase: “Truth is not truth”). Something that should never even have been up for debate becomes yet another screaming match, which is exactly what Trump wants to create. His entire strategy is creating sides and then setting them against each other. His goal isn't to persuade people that his lies are true; it’s to make people no longer care if they’re true. To rob a concept like ‘truth’ of its power and to turn even the most obvious of facts into a messy and mind-numbing political fight that makes everyone around him look angry and stupid and confused and exhausted, and he’s (ironically) the ‘adult’ in the room trying to sort them all out. He is actually brilliant at doing it, and the media - their first priority being the ratings he generates every time he says a dumb thing - have helped him every step of the way. 

I don't remember if I wrote it here or elsewhere, but the media simply needs to stop reporting what he says. Don't go to his press conferences, because they are the oxygen he needs. Starve him of it. Don't go to Sanders' pointless 'daily' briefings, where she simply dodges every question, repeats the same lies over and over again, and harangues the media ad nauseum. Ignore him and ignore her. Erase them both from the daily discussion. Let Sanders hold a 30-minute conversation with FOX News and an otherwise empty room. It will kill Trump. Fucking enrage him. He wants CNN in that room more than any other network; he wants ABC and MSNBC and the New York Times in there. He wants to summon them to his territory and then have Sanders assert his power over them. So take away that power. As an olive branch, I suggest the media offers Sanders a deal - if during any one briefing she tells more than 2 verified lies, then they boycott again for one month. Donald Trump’s name will not be mentioned anywhere in the American media except FOX. Instead they will use the term “The White House”, or “the Administration” when reporting on policy. The press have handed Donald Trump all the power. Just take it back. Recognise that his weakness is his need for attention and then starve him of it. I'm fairly sure Trump hasn't read it but he would recognise a kindred spirit in Oscar Wilde's Picture of Dorian Gray when he wrote "There is only one thing in life worse than being talked about and that is not being talked about". Just ignore the guy.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 04:56:20 PM by Dave_Manchester »
"As democracy is perfected, the office of President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their hearts' desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron" - H.L.Mencken, 26th July 1920.