Author Topic: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting  (Read 105816 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14502
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2695 on: May 15, 2018, 08:04:53 AM »
I had a disagreement with my girlfriend about a towel I own. I insisted that it was green, while she said it was blue. I am not colourblind, nor is she. I can see what Stadler means with this exercise and I also get why it's important, especially in contracts, that a definition of something has to be infallibly clear in order to not get things mixed up. Written text, single words even, can be so open to interpretation that it's important to use words/phrases that can't be misunderstood

I've had the conversation 100 times if I've had it once... the sales guy with their scope of work "We will do everything possible to deliver the cheapest, quickest project available."   So I call them, and I say "what's cheapest?"   "Uh, our price."   "Is our price zero?"   "Uh, no, why?"   "Isn't zero cheaper than our price?"   "Uh, yeah, why?"    "So we promised cheapest.  That's more cheap than cheaper."   "Dammit".    Then I say "what do you mean by 'everything possible'?"   "Uh, I don't know."  "Do you have in the budget three crews working rotating shifts 24-7 until the project is done, like we did on [XYZ project]?"   "Uh, no, why?"   "Well, that would be quickest for them, right? And it's possible because we did..."    "Dammit.   I'll get you a revised copy."   

You don't have to define everything, but you do have to have some means of letting either the parties or a third party decide what you meant in the event of a dispute.  We have standard language that allows us to make reasonable and customary substitutions on non-material items.   We have standard language that calls for acceptance once they put it into revenue service - the premise being, even if there's a dispute on "blue", if they are making money off the product, we've done our job.  Sounds onerous, but all of this is agreed to before even a lick of work is done, so we are all on the same page. 


Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25756
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2696 on: May 15, 2018, 08:41:31 AM »
Was I just on a call with you yesterday??   :biggrin:
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline Nekov

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9266
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2697 on: May 24, 2018, 08:28:02 AM »
I just read that Trump cancelled the meeting with Kim Jong Un because of his hostility. Can someone tell me what is going on? I thought this was "the" thing that would change a lot of people's views on his government.
When Ginobili gets hot, I get hot in my pants. 

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2698 on: May 24, 2018, 08:52:35 AM »
I just read that Trump cancelled the meeting with Kim Jong Un because of his hostility. Can someone tell me what is going on? I thought this was "the" thing that would change a lot of people's views on his government.
A DPRK minister called Pence a dumbass. “As a person involved in the US affairs, I cannot suppress my surprise at such ignorant and stupid remarks gushing out from the mouth of the U.S. vice president,” Can't have that. In reality this was never really going to happen. It was just a matter of who could cancel it to the best tactical advantage.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Nekov

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 9266
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2699 on: May 24, 2018, 09:05:17 AM »
So, it's all dandy when Trump calls Kim Jong Un Little Rocket Man but when Pence is being stupid and called out for it it's game over? I read that Pence was nothing less than threatening to North Korea which is pretty stupid when the countries are this close to sitting down to negotiate peace.
When Ginobili gets hot, I get hot in my pants. 

Offline Chino

  • Be excellent to each other.
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 20410
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2700 on: May 24, 2018, 09:05:57 AM »
I surprised anyone actually expected that meeting to take place.

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 5347
  • Heart of an Eagle
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2701 on: May 24, 2018, 09:28:09 AM »
Kind of hard to believe a sitting President wrote something so childish. You can almost see Trump puffing out his chest while he dictates the words haphazardly to some poor secretary.

RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline kaos2900

  • Posts: 2407
  • Gender: Male
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2702 on: May 24, 2018, 09:30:45 AM »
I actually didn't have a problem with the letter outside of the line about our nuclear power. I agree that line was childish but the rest was well written in my opinion. Trump actually getting this meeting to occur would have been a huge positive for his administration. I'm guessing that he knew it wasn't going to happen or that Kim was going to call it off and he wanted to be the one to control how the plug was pulled.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2703 on: May 24, 2018, 09:32:22 AM »
So, it's all dandy when Trump calls Kim Jong Un Little Rocket Man but when Pence is being stupid and called out for it it's game over? I read that Pence was nothing less than threatening to North Korea which is pretty stupid when the countries are this close to sitting down to negotiate peace.
Our side kept referring to "the Libya model" as the path they should take. Not such a great idea since that path led with Moamar being bayoneted up the ass. Trump, for perhaps the first time ever, wisely distanced himself from that idea. Then Pence brings it up again suggesting it could turn out the same way. Truth be told he was mostly just clumsy with his words, but he was clumsy at a point where he needed to be extremely precise. Nevertheless, our side did keep the heat a little too high. Particular when KJU has some moderate support over there. Really, Trump needed this more than KJU did.

And to be fair, I thought Trump's letter wasn't bad. He naturally slipped in a "mine is bigger than yours" comment, he simply can't help that, but overall he was polite and even halfway appreciative.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14502
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2704 on: May 24, 2018, 10:12:39 AM »
I don't know; I don't agree with all the snide and quippy comments about Trump here; this is realpolitik and international diplomacy. if you think Trump is the first President to be an opportunist when it comes to international relations, you haven't been paying attention (and ought to read "Roosevelt's Secret War" by Joe Persico; no, it's not a hatchet job and is a well-respected work by a well-respected historian).   

Having said that, while I don't argue that the "letter is not bad", in our written correspondence from the Office of President of the United States, I expect better than "not bad".   For that level, for that kind of missive, I would have hoped for something epic, and that wasn't it.  That first sentence ran on, the second sentence is a relative non sequitor, the nuclear line was uncalled for and inappropriate, and the letter relies on the kind of vapid, vague words that Trump regularly trades in; "wonderful", "a sad moment"...  That letter is written as if it was spoken, and that is a cardinal sin in letter writing.     

Offline Kattelox

  • Cart Corral Crusader
  • Posts: 5347
  • Heart of an Eagle
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2705 on: May 24, 2018, 10:21:10 AM »
Stadler, your second paragraph articulated exactly what my beef with the letter is.
RYM || Last.FM
"No Christ, God, nor religion gave me the answers I was looking for" - Timo Tolkki

Offline chknptpie

  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3086
  • Gender: Female
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2706 on: May 24, 2018, 11:40:24 AM »
The fact that it goes from WE to I just drives me insane. Also - whats the point for the line about "requested by north korea" and "irrelevant"? I don't see why that was necessary but it has to be included for some reason.

Offline jingle.boy

  • DTF's resident deceased dictator
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 25756
  • Gender: Male
  • The changing of the worrd is inevitabre!!!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2707 on: May 24, 2018, 11:57:00 AM »
I surprised anyone actually expected that meeting to take place.

First ... ^ this.

Second, is that letter actually legit?  I'd love for someone to put that through a grammar reader... my kids wrote better when they were in Grade 6 ffs.  "I look very much forward to meeting with you" ??  It's like this is the outcome of a real letter, translated into Korean, then translated back into English.
I didn't know I could handle another 10 inches and it was rough but in the end I'm glad I did it.
warflwwcesfw.
That's meme-speak for "We are really f*****g lazy when we can't eve say full words".

Offline ?

  • Apparently the best username
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11587
  • Gender: Male
  • Less=Moore, Even Less=Wilson
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2708 on: May 24, 2018, 12:22:07 PM »
Honestly, the meeting was doomed from the start when Trump accepted the invitation immediately without any conditions, automatically giving Kim the upper hand, and pulling out of the Iran deal did not exactly paint a picture of the US as a reliable dealmaker anyway. Expecting NK to willingly give up all its nuclear weapons was also naive, given their importance in the national propaganda over there.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14502
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2709 on: May 24, 2018, 02:26:12 PM »
Honestly, the meeting was doomed from the start when Trump accepted the invitation immediately without any conditions, automatically giving Kim the upper hand, and pulling out of the Iran deal did not exactly paint a picture of the US as a reliable dealmaker anyway. Expecting NK to willingly give up all its nuclear weapons was also naive, given their importance in the national propaganda over there.

I REALLY don't want to be "that guy" but these events, while I agree are not unexpected or unprecedented, do, for me, cast doubt on the veracity of all that came before.   I do not at all consider Pompeo a bullshitter, or a propaganda-ist, but he is the smartest person in that Cabinet right now (probably by a long shot) and he of all people knows the trade of "spycraft" and "international diplomacy".  I almost wonder if the initial "promises" by North Korea were anything but and it was a way to bully them on the international stage into doing it ("But you HAVE to go on stage; we've already printed the flyers!")

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2710 on: May 24, 2018, 11:26:30 PM »
Honestly, the meeting was doomed from the start when Trump accepted the invitation immediately without any conditions, automatically giving Kim the upper hand, and pulling out of the Iran deal did not exactly paint a picture of the US as a reliable dealmaker anyway. Expecting NK to willingly give up all its nuclear weapons was also naive, given their importance in the national propaganda over there.

I REALLY don't want to be "that guy" but these events, while I agree are not unexpected or unprecedented, do, for me, cast doubt on the veracity of all that came before.   I do not at all consider Pompeo a bullshitter, or a propaganda-ist, but he is the smartest person in that Cabinet right now (probably by a long shot) and he of all people knows the trade of "spycraft" and "international diplomacy".  I almost wonder if the initial "promises" by North Korea were anything but and it was a way to bully them on the international stage into doing it ("But you HAVE to go on stage; we've already printed the flyers!")
I think the smartest man in the cabinet knew very well that Trump wasn't going to be able to get all that he'd been promising. DPRK wasn't going to de-nuclearize to an extent that would fulfill Trump's demands, which we've now seen are somewhat nebulous anyway. Something perfectly good might have come of it, but not everything Trump always said he would get. Moreover, Trump's said before that he never wants to go into a negotiating wanting the deal more than the other guy. I think that was the case here. KJU has or is getting everything he's wanted. I think Trump needed this deal more than he did. If not for the political capital, then for his ever-fragile ego.

To be fair, it wouldn't surprise me if KJU was planning on pulling the same stunt. However, the smart move would have been to let him. The conventional wisdom for many years has been that what Kim wants is respectability. Ghosting us would have hurt him in that regard and he knew it.  President Moon was blindsided by this, despite having met with Grabby 2 days ago. At a time when our credibility is already a joke, what do our South Korean allies think about this? Trump is being as unpredictable and irrational as ever. KJU has been putting on a fine display of respectability for six months now. Letting Kim really fuck it all up might have reversed some of that.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14502
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2711 on: June 14, 2018, 10:42:34 AM »
So, apparently:
- North Korea thing must be better for the world than initially thought,
- there must be more to this Comey thing than it seemed at first glance, and
- the "Blue Wave" seems to have crashed out at sea,

since Trump is now being sued by the State of New York for a foundation/charity issue. 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-york-files-suit-against-trump-alleging-his-charity-engaged-in-%e2%80%98illegal-conduct%e2%80%99/ar-AAyDZhc?ocid=ientp

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12095
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2712 on: June 14, 2018, 10:53:23 AM »
So, apparently:
- North Korea thing must be better for the world than initially thought,
- there must be more to this Comey thing than it seemed at first glance, and
- the "Blue Wave" seems to have crashed out at sea,

since Trump is now being sued by the State of New York for a foundation/charity issue. 

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-york-files-suit-against-trump-alleging-his-charity-engaged-in-%e2%80%98illegal-conduct%e2%80%99/ar-AAyDZhc?ocid=ientp


 :corn      I'll sit back and read/watch the forthcoming onslaught of why Trump is 'so bad' and why everything he's accomplished is not accomplishment at all.

Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline axeman90210

  • Official Minister of Awesome, and Veronica knows my name!
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11763
  • Gender: Male
  • Never go full Nick
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2713 on: June 14, 2018, 11:34:27 AM »
Wouldn't want to keep you waiting.

Got to watch Trump show up late and leave early at the G7 summit, where he managed to antagonize many of our formerly staunchest allies, with one member of his administration essentially saying that there was a special place in hell for Justin Trudeau (which admittedly he later apologized for. Putting aside that having a trade deficit is not an inherently bad thing, why is he trying to start a trade war with a country we already have a surplus with? Not that Trump knew that, he's on audio bragging about telling Trudeau in a call that the US had a trade deficit with Canada even though he in reality he had no idea if it's true. He proudly said ahead of the North Korea summit that he didn't really need to prepare for because it was "mostly about attitude". It's an international nuclear arms summit, not an interview for a high school summer job. President Deals then got absolutely taken advantage of by Kim Jong Un in the meeting/negotiations. He gave away something North Korean dictators have been lusting after for years/decades in the appearance of legitimacy for the regime by getting a meeting with a sitting President. You can be sure that footage of Trump and Kim together, alternating flags behind them, will be used in North Korean propaganda for years to come. He also promised to stop running joint military exercises in South Korea, much to the shock of our allies. In exchange he got a vague commitment to "work towards the denuclearization of the Korean peninsula", which is far less specific that the previous agreements that North Korea have made and subsequently broke. For all the grief Trump gave the Iran deal, that was both specific and verifiable, and this is neither. Oh, and evidently NK promised they would destroy a major missile testing site, but they ran out of time to include it in the deal. Can you imagine the howls from the right if Obama had negotiated something like this? They were tearing into him back in the day just for saying that he'd meet with North Korea's leader. Essentially no discussion about how completely fucking awful Kim Jong Un's regime is (murders, work camps, rape, forced abortions, etc...), on the contrary if Trump had been any more complimentary towards him I'd be worried he'd try to move on him like a bitch. It's not even a year since Otto Warmbier died after North Korea returned him to us on death's doorstep.

And that's with me not having the time and energy to get into our new "tear kids away from their parents" policy down at the border.
Photobucket sucks.

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12095
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2714 on: June 14, 2018, 11:53:31 AM »
pretty much what I expected to read 
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2715 on: June 14, 2018, 12:15:38 PM »
pretty much what I expected to read
An equally predictable post.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline antigoon

  • Not Elvis
  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 10291
  • Gender: Male
  • This was a triumph.
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2716 on: June 14, 2018, 12:21:03 PM »
just popping in here to say...


i actually think the north korea stuff is good and the american foreign policy community totally shitting its pants over it makes me even more convinced that it is.


Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2717 on: June 14, 2018, 12:33:17 PM »
just popping in here to say...


i actually think the north korea stuff is good and the american foreign policy community totally shitting its pants over it makes me even more convinced that it is.
It's good if it works out. History would suggest that it's somewhat unlikely, hence our longstanding policy of not legitimizing their leaders by granting them photo-ops, and whatnot. One thing I will say is that the left's shitting all over it isn't any worse or less than the right's aggrandizing of it.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19471
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2718 on: June 14, 2018, 12:34:29 PM »
I don't view the North Korea deal as something similar to Iran.  They may have signed something, but I feel it's all fluff and means nothing.  The Iran deal was more serious and involved with more actual commitments by many parties.  This stuff with North Korea feels like a "wait and see" situation.  Trump's words mean nothing so he will likely go back on anything he said or signed with Kim if Kim does something wrong.  It all felt to me like Kim had a lot more to lose here.  Seemed like he wanted Trump to support him so he doesn't get overrun by his people.  If he feels that way, then he's the one that needs to make sure he follows through, not Trump who we all know has no issue going back on his words.  The propaganda stuff is fairly meaningless in my mind and also was predictable.  Also, if we are upset for having peace talks with North Korea because of their history of humans rights abuse, then that same conversation goes to Iran as well which isn't exactly a humans rights leader either.  At the end of the day, if this brings us closer to peace, then it's for the best.  Fixing humans rights issues can't happen if we aren't at peace with each other as countries first.

Offline Cool Chris

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 6747
  • Gender: Male
  • Rest in Peace
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2719 on: June 14, 2018, 12:41:32 PM »
Fixing humans rights issues can't happen if we aren't at peace with each other as countries first.

We can't fix human rights issues in other countries, period. Hell, we can't fix other countries, period.
"Nostalgia is just the ability to forget the things that sucked" - Nelson DeMille, 'Up Country'

Offline axeman90210

  • Official Minister of Awesome, and Veronica knows my name!
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 11763
  • Gender: Male
  • Never go full Nick
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2720 on: June 14, 2018, 12:55:52 PM »
pretty much what I expected to read 

If there's anything inaccurate in what I said I'd be happy to be enlightened :)

just popping in here to say...


i actually think the north korea stuff is good and the american foreign policy community totally shitting its pants over it makes me even more convinced that it is.
It's good if it works out. History would suggest that it's somewhat unlikely, hence our longstanding policy of not legitimizing their leaders by granting them photo-ops, and whatnot. One thing I will say is that the left's shitting all over it isn't any worse or less than the right's aggrandizing of it.

This is fair. If it does end up working out I'll be happy to give Trump his due. But like you said, there's no reason to think it will given NK's history and what we've seen so far.
Photobucket sucks.

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2721 on: June 14, 2018, 01:00:28 PM »
I don't view the North Korea deal as something similar to Iran.  They may have signed something, but I feel it's all fluff and means nothing.  The Iran deal was more serious and involved with more actual commitments by many parties.  This stuff with North Korea feels like a "wait and see" situation.  Trump's words mean nothing so he will likely go back on anything he said or signed with Kim if Kim does something wrong.  It all felt to me like Kim had a lot more to lose here.  Seemed like he wanted Trump to support him so he doesn't get overrun by his people.  If he feels that way, then he's the one that needs to make sure he follows through, not Trump who we all know has no issue going back on his words.  The propaganda stuff is fairly meaningless in my mind and also was predictable.  Also, if we are upset for having peace talks with North Korea because of their history of humans rights abuse, then that same conversation goes to Iran as well which isn't exactly a humans rights leader either.  At the end of the day, if this brings us closer to peace, then it's for the best.  Fixing humans rights issues can't happen if we aren't at peace with each other as countries first.
It struck me as more important to Trump than KJU. KJU had already gotten the legitimacy he sought from the regional players. He and his cute wife were posing with all of the various regional leaders. He has a nuclear deterrent, though he really never needed one in the first place, and can now negotiate on his own terms. Trump, on the other hand, is driven entirely by ego. Making this happen by hook or by crook is what mattered. I would call this a win-win for the time being, both sides got their photo-ops, which was the object of the exercise. Had they not it would have bothered Trump a whole lot more. He'd come back with nothing and KJU would tell Moon, Abe, and XI "damn, that guy's irrational!" and they'd have to agree.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2722 on: June 14, 2018, 01:03:26 PM »
just popping in here to say...


i actually think the north korea stuff is good and the american foreign policy community totally shitting its pants over it makes me even more convinced that it is.
It's good if it works out. History would suggest that it's somewhat unlikely, hence our longstanding policy of not legitimizing their leaders by granting them photo-ops, and whatnot. One thing I will say is that the left's shitting all over it isn't any worse or less than the right's aggrandizing of it.

This is fair. If it does end up working out I'll be happy to give Trump his due. But like you said, there's no reason to think it will given NK's history and what we've seen so far.
I didn't say Trump deserved any credit for it. This happened on DPRK's terms. Terms they've been quite clear about all along. For all we know this might have happened sooner and/or more favorably without all of his Big Button rhetoric.
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12095
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2723 on: June 14, 2018, 01:04:01 PM »
pretty much what I expected to read
An equally predictable post.

Touché
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19471
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2724 on: June 14, 2018, 01:13:27 PM »
I don't view the North Korea deal as something similar to Iran.  They may have signed something, but I feel it's all fluff and means nothing.  The Iran deal was more serious and involved with more actual commitments by many parties.  This stuff with North Korea feels like a "wait and see" situation.  Trump's words mean nothing so he will likely go back on anything he said or signed with Kim if Kim does something wrong.  It all felt to me like Kim had a lot more to lose here.  Seemed like he wanted Trump to support him so he doesn't get overrun by his people.  If he feels that way, then he's the one that needs to make sure he follows through, not Trump who we all know has no issue going back on his words.  The propaganda stuff is fairly meaningless in my mind and also was predictable.  Also, if we are upset for having peace talks with North Korea because of their history of humans rights abuse, then that same conversation goes to Iran as well which isn't exactly a humans rights leader either.  At the end of the day, if this brings us closer to peace, then it's for the best.  Fixing humans rights issues can't happen if we aren't at peace with each other as countries first.
It struck me as more important to Trump than KJU. KJU had already gotten the legitimacy he sought from the regional players. He and his cute wife were posing with all of the various regional leaders. He has a nuclear deterrent, though he really never needed one in the first place, and can now negotiate on his own terms. Trump, on the other hand, is driven entirely by ego. Making this happen by hook or by crook is what mattered. I would call this a win-win for the time being, both sides got their photo-ops, which was the object of the exercise. Had they not it would have bothered Trump a whole lot more. He'd come back with nothing and KJU would tell Moon, Abe, and XI "damn, that guy's irrational!" and they'd have to agree.

Trump definitely had something to gain for this as well.  It was historical.  But I feel Trumps gains are short term where for Kim the potential long term gain is much larger, although I am very skeptical of North Korea becoming more normalized with the rest of the world at this point.  Seems more like you said, this was just a photo op that helped NK look like they belong for now.  Maybe something more comes down the line.  At least we aren't getting tweets about the Rocketman or the Dotard.  The world is a better place when people are at least talking of peace instead of talking of war.

Fixing humans rights issues can't happen if we aren't at peace with each other as countries first.

We can't fix human rights issues in other countries, period. Hell, we can't fix other countries, period.

I agree with this.  I didn't mean that statement to think we should do something, but I feel the humans rights stuff comes up a lot when people say we shouldn't be friendly with such countries.  I don't think you can force people to change, they have to see it's for the better themselves but that conversation never starts if you are enemies.

Offline Stadler

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 14502
  • Gender: Male
  • Pointing out the "unfunny" since 2017!
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2725 on: June 14, 2018, 02:45:47 PM »
pretty much what I expected to read 

If there's anything inaccurate in what I said I'd be happy to be enlightened :)

just popping in here to say...


i actually think the north korea stuff is good and the american foreign policy community totally shitting its pants over it makes me even more convinced that it is.
It's good if it works out. History would suggest that it's somewhat unlikely, hence our longstanding policy of not legitimizing their leaders by granting them photo-ops, and whatnot. One thing I will say is that the left's shitting all over it isn't any worse or less than the right's aggrandizing of it.

This is fair. If it does end up working out I'll be happy to give Trump his due. But like you said, there's no reason to think it will given NK's history and what we've seen so far.

I don't know that there's anything "wrong", per se, but I know that I don't at all rate the "photo-op" as highly as you (and admittedly, many others) do.   As I was told (rightly) by someone who posts here, the world is different now.  It used to be that we could sort of operate in a vacuum, and our allies would  glad hand us, and the Soviet Union would rattle their swords, then crush us in hockey.  <Yawn>.    Now there is a new world order, in the form of the China-Russia-US/NATO-ish  triumvirate.    If we continue to play games with photo-ops, we're going to win the battle and lose the war.  China doesn't give fuck one about photo-ops.   I personally do not at all think that Trump gave away the farm in exchange for "nothing".   He got a commitment that now the NORKs (and China) have to contend with.  He "gave" a photo-op.   The exercises are a form of posturing.   Kim knows what we have and what we can do.   Now he's being tempted by the riches of the west, and China knows that. 

I'm no fan of Trump, I don't like the bull-in-a-china shop style of negotiating, even if I understand it better than some of you seem to (Canada and Merkel are not going to all of a sudden ditch the US economy and "switch sides", I promise you) but this continuous narrative that he's a dolt that doesn't know what the f*** he's doing is getting tired.  Fine, don't agree with the strategy/tactics, but it's not necessary to continue to resist even the most basic of objective observations.

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19471
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2726 on: June 14, 2018, 02:56:12 PM »
I'm no fan of Trump, I don't like the bull-in-a-china shop style of negotiating, even if I understand it better than some of you seem to (Canada and Merkel are not going to all of a sudden ditch the US economy and "switch sides", I promise you) but this continuous narrative that he's a dolt that doesn't know what the f*** he's doing is getting tired.  Fine, don't agree with the strategy/tactics, but it's not necessary to continue to resist even the most basic of objective observations.

I'm not going to pretend I have any negotiating experience, but I kind of think Trump negotiating with Kim worked on some level because they are similar.  Trump's attacks on twitter actually kind of worked.  Fire and fury, Trump used the same way of intimidation that NK uses on us.  He got a lot of flack for it by the media, rightfully so as our president shouldnt be taunting world leaders on twitter, but the end result kind of worked.  I say kind of because I'm hesitant to label this a success without seeing things play out, but it got them to negotiate surprisingly. 

Offline jammindude

  • Posts: 8999
  • Gender: Male
    • The Jammin Dude Show
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2727 on: June 14, 2018, 03:19:37 PM »
It’s like the ancient Vulcan proverb...

“Only Nixon could go to China.”
"Better the pride that resides in a citizen of the world.
Than the pride that divides when a colorful rag is unfurled." - Neil Peart

The Jammin Dude Show - http://www.youtube.com/user/jammindude

Offline El Barto

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 21141
  • Bad Craziness
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2728 on: June 14, 2018, 03:45:06 PM »
I'm no fan of Trump, I don't like the bull-in-a-china shop style of negotiating, even if I understand it better than some of you seem to (Canada and Merkel are not going to all of a sudden ditch the US economy and "switch sides", I promise you) but this continuous narrative that he's a dolt that doesn't know what the f*** he's doing is getting tired.  Fine, don't agree with the strategy/tactics, but it's not necessary to continue to resist even the most basic of objective observations.

I'm not going to pretend I have any negotiating experience, but I kind of think Trump negotiating with Kim worked on some level because they are similar.  Trump's attacks on twitter actually kind of worked.  Fire and fury, Trump used the same way of intimidation that NK uses on us.  He got a lot of flack for it by the media, rightfully so as our president shouldnt be taunting world leaders on twitter, but the end result kind of worked.  I say kind of because I'm hesitant to label this a success without seeing things play out, but it got them to negotiate surprisingly.
On what basis do you think that? We got an outcome that's something ≥ to zero, but that's not necessarily a success and doesn't consider other outcomes. How do we know that without the idiotic button talk there wasn't a much better outcome to be had? Or, as I've been saying all along, this wasn't just the simple culmination of Kim's plan?
Argument, the presentation of reasonable views, never makes headway against conviction, and conviction takes no part in argument because it knows.
E.F. Benson

Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19471
  • Gender: Male
    • The Home of cramx3
Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #2729 on: June 14, 2018, 03:48:32 PM »
I'm no fan of Trump, I don't like the bull-in-a-china shop style of negotiating, even if I understand it better than some of you seem to (Canada and Merkel are not going to all of a sudden ditch the US economy and "switch sides", I promise you) but this continuous narrative that he's a dolt that doesn't know what the f*** he's doing is getting tired.  Fine, don't agree with the strategy/tactics, but it's not necessary to continue to resist even the most basic of objective observations.

I'm not going to pretend I have any negotiating experience, but I kind of think Trump negotiating with Kim worked on some level because they are similar.  Trump's attacks on twitter actually kind of worked.  Fire and fury, Trump used the same way of intimidation that NK uses on us.  He got a lot of flack for it by the media, rightfully so as our president shouldnt be taunting world leaders on twitter, but the end result kind of worked.  I say kind of because I'm hesitant to label this a success without seeing things play out, but it got them to negotiate surprisingly.
On what basis do you think that? We got an outcome that's something ≥ to zero, but that's not necessarily a success and doesn't consider other outcomes. How do we know that without the idiotic button talk there wasn't a much better outcome to be had? Or, as I've been saying all along, this wasn't just the simple culmination of Kim's plan?

I can only go off whats happened and what's reported so I can't make any assumptions about what better outcomes there might have been, but considering there's been many presidents who have failed to bring NK to negotiate, I have to assume Trump did something the others have not (and the tweets immediately come to mind, but maybe there is more to the story than I can see).