Author Topic: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting  (Read 92942 times)

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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #245 on: May 15, 2017, 12:39:05 PM »

I think the marijuana movement has been stymied by this over-reliance on the idea that "hey, it's not so bad!  It's not as bad as alcohol!"  Why would you base your entire movement on an argument that can't be proved and that is usually pre-determined in the eyes of the people you're looking to convert?   I find it fascinating, and VERY informative, that Colorado's ECONOMIC success has led to more states adopting similar structures in the last year or two than all of the so-called "harm" arguments combined over the past several decades. 
The harm arguments had been paying dividends, though. As I said earlier, we've had generations of the Joe Friday approach. The reality has demonstrated that it doesn't cause people to go insane. It doesn't make white women sleep with the negroes. It doesn't turn people into junkies. As a result, many places had already started to lax their prohibition policies quite a bit. I'd suggest that the trends towards taxation stem more from that than the strictly economic aspect.

I disagree.   Pot is not "paying dividends" because it is "harmless", at least on in the sense of harm to the specific user.  It's paying dividends because it is economically sound to do so.  "Crime" isn't down because a pot high is "peaceful, man!".  It's down because law-abiding citizens don't have to go to Compton or Father Panick Village to get their stash.  They don't have to deal with a dude named "Junior" with gold teeth who may or may not give you a baggy of actual weed when he takes your ten bucks.   You would see the same benefits with a legalization of heroin and/or cocaine, and are you really going to make the same "harm" arguments?
Well, first off I didn't mean to suggest that pot was paying dividends. I was saying that the "no harm" mentality was paying dividends with regards to pot. And as for you greater point, I'd simply ask where these economic benefits were in 1980? Or 2000? Or 1930? We've only gotten to the point where this was acceptable because people started to realize that it actually is generally harmless and that prohibition never works. Unfortunately, our new AG doesn't appear to be a real person.

On a side note, I've been procuring grass one way or another since 1983, and I've never had any of the experiences you speak of. Remember, the free market works even in an illicit trade (you could ask Scalia if he weren't worm food). Dealers tend to be pretty honest folk out of necessity.

Admittedly, I'm skewing things here.  The heroin trade here in CT is rampant, and it's not at all as "gentleman friendly" as apparently your weed transactions are.  My wife works in Probate, and she sometimes helps families to get through the process and she's done two now where people died because of the "blue bag" heroin that's going around.   

That, by the way, is one of the two single biggest upsides of legalization (that and the revenue) for me.   Liquor is harmful, no doubt about it, but at least when you buy that bottle of Tito's you know what you're getting. It's not cut with water, or bleach, or Windex or whatever the fuck.   I think the quicker we get some desperate fuck out of the business of stretching his supply as far as he can, the better off we are "as a society".  The less "harm".
The heroin problem is a different sort of animal. We've seen a huge increase due in part to doctors over-prescribing opiates and also the prohibition which has made H cheaper and easier to obtain than the real deal. I don't think it's reasonable to lump that in with the policy discussions based on 100 years of observation and the war on drugs.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #247 on: May 15, 2017, 03:44:09 PM »
It's a day ending in "y", so here's another bonkers story about this administration

Trump revealed highly classified information to Russian foreign minister and ambassador

Quote
President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information the president relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.

The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said Trump’s decision to do so endangers cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State. After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and the National Security Agency.

“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-revealed-highly-classified-information-to-russian-foreign-minister-and-ambassador/2017/05/15/530c172a-3960-11e7-9e48-c4f199710b69_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-high_trumpintel-0504pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4a644e8bdde9

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #248 on: May 15, 2017, 04:42:04 PM »
Is anyone surprised by this?  This dude has got to be either a Russian asset (knowing or unknowingly... it doesn't matter), or a complete f'n moron, or trying to get himself fired.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #249 on: May 15, 2017, 04:49:37 PM »
In before someone dismisses this due to WaPo or unnamed sources.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #250 on: May 15, 2017, 05:49:50 PM »
H.R. McMaster forcefully denied things that weren't alleged as facts in the Post's article, and then didn't take any questions.

Glad we got that cleared up.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2017, 05:56:29 AM by hefdaddy42 »
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #251 on: May 16, 2017, 05:58:19 AM »
And after that non-denial denial,  this morning Trump sent out a tweet basically admitting he did it.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #252 on: May 16, 2017, 06:31:03 AM »
Trump sent out a tweet basically admitting he did it.

Quote
Well, what he meant was...

Online Stadler

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #253 on: May 16, 2017, 06:42:27 AM »
So let's recap:

Trump revealed information that he is entitled, under law, to do.  Doesn't matter whether it is classified or not.

McMaster calls an Intelligence Agent to inform of the information transmitted, again, legally.

Intelligence Agent anonymously and illegally leaks that information to the press.   Again, ILLEGALLY.

Press and partisan "analysts" go after the President.

Sure, makes sense to me. 

Offline AngelBack

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #254 on: May 16, 2017, 06:48:02 AM »
This is an outrage, classified info must be protected.  I guess Tillerson hasn't had time to set up that Radio Shack server in his bathroom yet...


Meanwhile, it is reported that Seth Rich (former DNC staffer) had sent thousands of emails to Wiki Leaks shortly before he was assassinated. 

But the Russians....
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Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #255 on: May 16, 2017, 06:57:48 AM »
Donald is legally allowed to do whatever he wants with classified information, sure.

He irresponsibly passed on extremely secret info compromising an ally to top Russian officials. If that country wanted to share intel with Russia, it could have done so itself. Now it has been shown (something I'm sure was already obvious to lots of other intelligence agencies around the globe due either to Trumpo's incompetence, his position as a Russian stooge, or both) that to share with the US is to share with Russia - or who ever else Donald blabs to.

It's hard to know the specific consequences of this situation since we obviously don't know what exactly was shared or what sources were compromised because of it. But the long term consequences of having an executive that cannot be trusted to keep its ally's secrets should be obvious.

When you guys find yourself with fewer and fewer allies in the future, stuff like this will be why.

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #256 on: May 16, 2017, 06:58:49 AM »
From a friend of mine who works with this sort of information:

Quote
He can declassify anything (though it's not instantaneous). He is not, however, a foreign disclosure officer. Anything given to a foreign government must be vetted by a FDO. This may have happened, I don't know.

Quote
It seems he gave up *another* country's intel, which he is not authorized to do.

Quote
Also of note, it seems this info was given to us under a strict caveat that it couldn't be disseminated... even to other Americans without the right read-ons.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #257 on: May 16, 2017, 07:09:34 AM »
So let's recap:

Trump revealed information that he is entitled, under law, to do.  Doesn't matter whether it is classified or not.

McMaster calls an Intelligence Agent to inform of the information transmitted, again, legally.

Intelligence Agent anonymously and illegally leaks that information to the press.   Again, ILLEGALLY.

Press and partisan "analysts" go after the President.

Sure, makes sense to me.
Wow
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Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #258 on: May 16, 2017, 07:13:58 AM »
So let's recap:

Trump revealed information that he is entitled, under law, to do.  Doesn't matter whether it is classified or not.

McMaster calls an Intelligence Agent to inform of the information transmitted, again, legally.

Intelligence Agent anonymously and illegally leaks that information to the press.   Again, ILLEGALLY.

Press and partisan "analysts" go after the President.

Sure, makes sense to me.

Is legality the only metric we should use when criticizing  the man though? Legal or not, this seems irresponsible, and as usual, it contradicts the other stories coming out of the White House. Trump seems to be acting like a lone ranger and I think that's what has most people freaked. I mean, he could legally order a nuclear strike on China if he wanted to, it doesn't mean we shouldn't give him hell if he carried through with it.

I don't think anyone is questioning whether what he did was legal or not. They're asking if it was appropriate. If we have foreign help and have a guy inside ISIS that's sneaking information out to us, doesn't this risk that relationship? If the country/group/person we're working with didn't want this information in the hands of the Russians, was it right to give it to them regardless of legality?


Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #259 on: May 16, 2017, 07:25:16 AM »

Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #260 on: May 16, 2017, 08:20:56 AM »
So let's recap:

Trump revealed information that he is entitled, under law, to do.  Doesn't matter whether it is classified or not.

McMaster calls an Intelligence Agent to inform of the information transmitted, again, legally.

Intelligence Agent anonymously and illegally leaks that information to the press.   Again, ILLEGALLY.

Press and partisan "analysts" go after the President.

Sure, makes sense to me.
You're stepping out on your wife. You tell your best friend about it over beers one night, with the caveat "don't tell anybody!" He tells his wife and word gets back to yours. Are you ever going to tell your friend anything? Of course not. He's unreliable. The difference is that we need to know what others know, and by being flippant with that info we make it considerably less likely they'll help us. Moreover, I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time. I think we had this problem with Qatar once before, and I'm guessing it was those guys that gave us this intel.

And what happens if this country, my guess Qatar, catches heat from its own populace. Or from the Saudis or some other neighboring country that doesn't take kindly on helping us out? But hey, it was legal so fuck'em.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #261 on: May 16, 2017, 08:22:09 AM »
So let's recap:

Trump revealed information that he is entitled, under law, to do.  Doesn't matter whether it is classified or not.

McMaster calls an Intelligence Agent to inform of the information transmitted, again, legally.

Intelligence Agent anonymously and illegally leaks that information to the press.   Again, ILLEGALLY.

Press and partisan "analysts" go after the President.

Sure, makes sense to me. 

Not sure if you're looking for work but I've heard through the grapevine that there might be a high-profile PR job opening up in the District.

Offline antigoon

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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #263 on: May 16, 2017, 08:40:02 AM »

Offline antigoon

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #264 on: May 16, 2017, 09:54:37 AM »
even more partisan spin:
Quote
Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ), Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, released the following statement today on reports that President Trump shared sensitive intelligence with Russian officials:

“The reports that the President shared sensitive intelligence with Russian officials are deeply disturbing. Reports that this information was provided by a U.S. ally and shared without its knowledge sends a troubling signal to America’s allies and partners around the world and may impair their willingness to share intelligence with us in the future. Regrettably, the time President Trump spent sharing sensitive information with the Russians was time he did not spend focusing on Russia’s aggressive behavior, including its interference in American and European elections, its illegal invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea, its other destabilizing activities across Europe, and the slaughter of innocent civilians and targeting of hospitals in Syria.”

https://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=press-releases&id=03DB18B6-80CC-451B-8AAC-BFB42321CDA4

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #265 on: May 16, 2017, 09:57:05 AM »
Anybody else getting tired of all this winning?

Offline Chino

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #266 on: May 16, 2017, 10:18:04 AM »
even more partisan spin:
Quote
Washington, D.C. ­– U.S. Senator John McCain (R-AZ), Chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, released the following statement today on reports that President Trump shared sensitive intelligence with Russian officials:

“The reports that the President shared sensitive intelligence with Russian officials are deeply disturbing. Reports that this information was provided by a U.S. ally and shared without its knowledge sends a troubling signal to America’s allies and partners around the world and may impair their willingness to share intelligence with us in the future. Regrettably, the time President Trump spent sharing sensitive information with the Russians was time he did not spend focusing on Russia’s aggressive behavior, including its interference in American and European elections, its illegal invasion of Ukraine and annexation of Crimea, its other destabilizing activities across Europe, and the slaughter of innocent civilians and targeting of hospitals in Syria.”

https://www.mccain.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?p=press-releases&id=03DB18B6-80CC-451B-8AAC-BFB42321CDA4

Trump disclosed more secrets in an hour with Russians in the Oval Office than John McCain did in 5.5 years as a POW.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #267 on: May 16, 2017, 10:37:37 AM »
Wait, I'm confused.  Let me see if I can break it down.

So, the only people who actually KNOW what was disclosed and why say nothing wrong was done.

People who have no idea what was disclosed and why say: We don't know what was disclosed or why, and we can't say for sure that it was illegal, or even wrong, but :panicattack:

And we should go with the second group...why exactly?   ???
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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #268 on: May 16, 2017, 10:44:46 AM »
Wait, I'm confused.  Let me see if I can break it down.

So, the only people who actually KNOW what was disclosed and why say nothing wrong was done.

People who have no idea what was disclosed and why say: We don't know what was disclosed or why, and we can't say for sure that it was illegal, or even wrong, but :panicattack:

And we should go with the second group...why exactly?   ???

Because Trump bad
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Offline El Barto

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #269 on: May 16, 2017, 10:45:14 AM »
I don't think the people who know say nothing he didn't do anything wrong. They were very selective about how they phrased their defense.
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #270 on: May 16, 2017, 10:53:47 AM »
So let's recap:

Trump revealed information that he is entitled, under law, to do.  Doesn't matter whether it is classified or not.

McMaster calls an Intelligence Agent to inform of the information transmitted, again, legally.

Intelligence Agent anonymously and illegally leaks that information to the press.   Again, ILLEGALLY.

Press and partisan "analysts" go after the President.

Sure, makes sense to me.
Wow

Yeah.  Indeed.  If it wasn't for how thorough and well spoken almost all of Stadler's P/R commentary was, I might have believed he's a troll.  Perhaps he's the most eloquent troll in the world.  If what is reported is true - disclosing classified information to a foreign non-ally - it's hard to make sense of how anyone can see this a 'no biggie', that the bigger problem is the media/leaks.

Stadler, I wasn't around much during the campaign, but what was your position on all the Wikileaks shit?

So, the only people who actually KNOW what was disclosed and why say nothing wrong was done.

Naturally!  Those in Grabby's inner circle that were there are going to cry "no biggie".  To use El Barto's analogy - a guy who cheats on his wife at his bachelor party with a stripper that his pals ordered for him - of course they're all going to claim 'no biggie'.

People who have no idea what was disclosed and why say: We don't know what was disclosed or why, and we can't say for sure that it was illegal, or even wrong, but :panicattack:

Well, what I understand has been reported is that - regardless of the details - this was NOT information that was wise or *should* have been shared with anyone, let alone the Russians.  Does the lack of specifics of 'what' and 'why' mean that no one should be alarmed? 

Remember Flynn?  "nothing to see here" was the administration's response for weeks.  Then... Ooops, there is something here - You're Fired!  There are so many damaging topics that have been reported on that ultimately come out as true.  How are ANY of those situations good for your President/Presidency.  It's an absolute gong-show - at least, that's how the rest of the world sees it.
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Offline antigoon

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #271 on: May 16, 2017, 10:54:28 AM »
I don't think the people who know say nothing he didn't do anything wrong. They were very selective about how they phrased their defense.

Yeah, that press conference wasn't exactly reassuring.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #272 on: May 16, 2017, 11:06:58 AM »
Naturally!  Those in Grabby's inner circle that were there are going to cry "no biggie".  To use El Barto's analogy - a guy who cheats on his wife at his bachelor party with a stripper that his pals ordered for him - of course they're all going to claim 'no biggie'.

But how do we know El Barto's analogy is anywhere in the ballpark of what occurred?  How do you know that anything that was disclosed, or the reason it was disclosed, actually IS a biggie?

Well, what I understand has been reported is that - regardless of the details - this was NOT information that was wise or *should* have been shared with anyone, let alone the Russians.

How do we know?  Nobody has said what was disclosed or why, correct?  So how do we know?

Remember Flynn?  "nothing to see here" was the administration's response for weeks.  Then...


Then...he was fired.

Then...the reaction was :panicattack:  "Since he was fired, there MUST be something nefarious going on!"

Then...it was looked into.

Then...it turned out to be "nothing to see here."

So, again, so what?  Upon what exactly are we basing this reaction that we "SHOULD" be alarmed?
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Offline jingle.boy

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #273 on: May 16, 2017, 11:19:49 AM »
When was the Flynn thing "looked in to"?  Wasn't he just subpoena'd last week?  Hearings still on going, aren't they?  How do YOU know that it was 'nothing to see here'?  The acting AG testified he was compromised.  That doesn't exactly sound like 'nothing'.

But, whatever.  It's not my intent to come off that I'm trying to convince anyone of anything, just offering points on the issues that are being reported.  I guess if you think this is all normal, then by all means, do so.  If this is what "winning" looks like, I guess I'll be content to be a Canadian loser, eh?
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Offline RuRoRul

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #274 on: May 16, 2017, 11:22:07 AM »


Remember Flynn?  "nothing to see here" was the administration's response for weeks.  Then...


Then...he was fired.

Then...the reaction was :panicattack:  "Since he was fired, there MUST be something nefarious going on!"

Then...it was looked into.

Then...it turned out to be "nothing to see here."
Hahahaha.

Despite Donald's attempts to impede it, at this point the efforts to "look into" things regarding Flynn are far from over, so I don't know how you or anyone else could declare that there was "nothing to see".

Since it's not concluded yet we don't know exactly what will go down, but from what I've seen my prediction is that it's more likely that they have Flynn dead to rights rather than finding that there was "nothing to see".

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #275 on: May 16, 2017, 11:30:05 AM »
I don't know how you or anyone else could declare that there was "nothing to see"

I have a tough time with this also, but I suspect in most instances, it's because (R).

That's not specifically pointed at bosk or anyone here, but in general.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #276 on: May 16, 2017, 11:30:35 AM »
Okay, fair enough.  You both are right.  It IS still being looked into.  From what has been disclosed thus far, it does not look like there is anything to see.  And the investigation SHOULD continue.  That's how it is supposed to work.  But fair enough that it is still an open issue. 

But the Flynn thing aside (because it isn't really germaine to what we were discussing anyway), I go back to my question with regard to the Russia thing:  How do we know?  Why exactly should we be in :panicattack: mode?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #277 on: May 16, 2017, 11:32:02 AM »
Okay, fair enough.  You both are right.  It IS still being looked into.  From what has been disclosed thus far, it does not look like there is anything to see.  And the investigation SHOULD continue.  That's how it is supposed to work.  But fair enough that it is still an open issue. 

But the Flynn thing aside (because it isn't really germaine to what we were discussing anyway), I go back to my question with regard to the Russia thing:  How do we know?  Why exactly should we be in :panicattack: mode?

Because when someone has a history of boneheadedly setting fires, it becomes more and more likely that even a wisp of smoke from their vicinity means another fire.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #278 on: May 16, 2017, 11:43:34 AM »
Fair enough.  Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something.  Personally, I think we're expending far too much energy searching for smoke and chasing potential fires.  But I get it. 
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: Trump's Presidency thread. v 100 days and counting
« Reply #279 on: May 16, 2017, 11:48:25 AM »