Dear Dream Theater

[MinistroRaven]

Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top.  That is polarizing.

Exactly, and I think that's what Ministro was driving at (correct me if I'm wrong, Ministro). To me, "a sizable chunk" does not equate to the whole fanbase, most of it or even half of it. There's plenty of fans who feel TA is decent, mediocre, terrible, the worst etc. - in other words, less than "really good". So I don't think what Ministro is saying is unfair or untrue, tho it doesn't fit the majority of the fans here.

You are sooo correct Setlist Scotty

[ToT-147]

Yes, the album might be polaziring, but that doesn't imply that half of the fanbase hates the album and the other half loves it.. I mean, that simplistic sentence wouldn't even work to put things in an easy way, first, because we don't know that; and second, because we do know at least that that's not the case, neither with TA nor with any other album that have "polarized" the fans..

However obvious it may seem, to think that an album is the worst one of a band doesn't mean you hate it.. And I repeat: we can't know this for sure, but the -little and subjective- knowledge *I* got to reach of the fanbase's opinion about TA tells me that KevShmev's posture is, at least, more accurate than MinistroRaven's..

But, for the last time, what we're all saying here can't be more than hunches, and this includes JLB or any other member of the band, unless they're making surveys to know this and more..

[Setlist Scotty]

Yes, the album might be polaziring, but that doesn't imply that half of the fanbase hates the album and the other half loves it.. I mean, that simplistic sentence wouldn't even work to put things in an easy way, first, because we don't know that; and second, because we do know at least that that's not the case, neither with TA nor with any other album that have "polarized" the fans..

However obvious it may seem, to think that an album is the worst one of a band doesn't mean you hate it.

The issue is if a "sizable chunk of the fanbase" would disagree with the statement that TA is "really good" - *not* "half the fanbase hates the album." There are plenty of comments I've read online and conversations I've had with fellow DT fans that confirm they don't believe TA is "really good." How is that not clear to you?

[ToT-147]

Yes, the album might be polaziring, but that doesn't imply that half of the fanbase hates the album and the other half loves it.. I mean, that simplistic sentence wouldn't even work to put things in an easy way, first, because we don't know that; and second, because we do know at least that that's not the case, neither with TA nor with any other album that have "polarized" the fans..

However obvious it may seem, to think that an album is the worst one of a band doesn't mean you hate it.

The issue is if a "sizable chunk of the fanbase" would disagree with the statement that TA is "really good" - *not* "half the fanbase hates the album." There are plenty of comments I've read online and conversations I've had with fellow DT fans that confirm they don't believe TA is "really good." How is that not clear to you?

And how's not clear to you that I don't think what you think?...

Besides, I didn't say you, cramx3 or MinistroRaven are completely wrong.. I said that, from what *I* have read online (all of this can't be but purely subjetive at the end of the day) I'd say that your posture is not entirely right.. You are right about TA don't getting much love in general, and having those "plenty" (maybe) of negative reactions.. But saying that a sizable chunk of the fanbase think that way -or don't think is really good-... that's different, and from what I've read/heard, I wouldn't say such a thing..

No one can have an irrefutable truth about this, mostly because opinions, as negative or positive as they can be or might seem to be, can always change in any minute.. Put aside the fact that many, if not a sizable chunk :v, haven't still listened to TA the enough times to judging it well, and even they admit it..

[Setlist Scotty]

And how's not clear to you that I don't think what you think?...

It's obvious you don't think what I think, but that doesn't mean that you're right. 

Besides, I didn't say you, cramx3 or MinistroRaven are completely wrong.. I said that, from what *I* have read online (all of this can't be but purely subjetive at the end of the day) I'd say that your posture is not entirely right.

So we are just mostly wrong then, yes?   

You are right about TA don't getting much love in general, and having those "plenty" (maybe) of negative reactions.. But saying that a sizable chunk of the fanbase think that way -or don't think is really good-... that's different, and from what I've read/heard, I wouldn't say such a thing..

You're missing the point - me and Ministro are simply saying there is a significant number who don't believe TA is "really good" - that's all. Whether they think it's decent or the most vile piece of trash, all of them think it is less than "really good." And that's regardless of whether they've listened to the album 1 time or 100 times, or whether they've judged it well or judged it poorly - they have their own opinion of it.

[ToT-147]

It's obvious you don't think what I think, but that doesn't mean that you're right. 

No, it doesn't, and neither I said it does.. Actually, I've repeatedly been saying that none of us can be right about this.. They're just opinions about opinions and, therefore, they're still opinions..

So we are just mostly wrong then, yes?   

Not being entirely right -these were my words- doesn't make you mostly wrong.. Let me fix your question to "Are we partly wrong?".. And let me answer it: from *my* notion and perspective, yes, you are..

You're missing the point - me and Ministro are simply saying there is a significant number who don't believe TA is "really good" - that's all. Whether they think it's decent or the most vile piece of trash, all of them think it is less than "really good." And that's regardless of whether they've listened to the album 1 time or 100 times, or whether they've judged it well or judged it poorly - they have their own opinion of it.

Ok, let's just restrict what otherwise could be a richer talk by only speaking in those terms.. I'm serious; if we do that, I'd still think what I said -that the number of fans who don't think TA is "really good" it is not that big; or, in other words, and I said it before: that KevShmev's posture is, at least, more accurate than MinistroRaven's-.. But I wasn't talking specifically in those single terms in my previous-previous comment, and that's when you confused my point (meaning: I wasn't talking about what these two users said, but what others said after)..

Also, I still think the factor of the times of listening to the album it is important to this whole issue.. You can't say 1 listen is the same as 100.. For what I've heard and read, I can say that TA is a grower, so it does matter..

[Setlist Scotty]

Ok, let's just restrict what otherwise could be a richer talk by only speaking in those terms..

That's what I've been trying to say all this time!   

I'm serious; if we do that, I'd still think what I said -that the number of fans who don't think TA is "really good" it is not that big; or, in other words, and I said it before: that KevShmev's posture is, at least, more accurate than MinistroRaven's-.

Fair enough - let's agree to disagree, because apparently neither of us is going to convince the other.

You can't say 1 listen is the same as 100.. For what I've heard and read, I can say that TA is a grower, so it does matter..

Again, let's agree to disagree. But just to be clear, what you're speaking of is hypotheticals, not what the present reality is. Hypothetically I could eventually develop a love for Depeche Mode's album "Sounds of the Universe", but after several repeated listens, none of the tracks do anything for me. Maybe if I listen to the songs 100 times, I'll be won over, but frankly, I'd rather listen to their earlier stuff that I really enjoy rather than this album, just in the hopes that it will click with me. What would my opinion be? "They may have worked hard on the album, but I can't stand it. In my opinion, it sucks." And yet I'm sure there are plenty of fans who would tell me that the album grows on you. The same is true for any other band or any album. For what we are talking about (counting the feelings/opinions/reactions of people towards TA), hypotheticals don't count, only what people feel at the moment.

[emtee]

Progarchives ranking is 3.51. I've always felt that if you throw out the margins, the serial bashers and the serial supporters, you get
a decent snapshot of how an album is viewed by the fans.

1A and 1B) I&W ~ SFaM - 4.29
2) SDoiT - 4.14
3) Awake 4.11
4) ADToE - 3.85
5) 8V - 3.66
6) ToT - 3.58
7) TA - 3.51
8) BC&SL - 3.44
9A, 9B, 9C ~ FII, DT12, SC - 3.31
10) WDaDU - 3.20

So they tried something big, bold and grandiose (which is commendable) and so far it's landed in the bottom third of albums.
This sort of reaction is nothing new for DT. Awake threw people off big time after I&W. FII REALLY threw people off. Same
for ToT, 8V...etc. I remember reading many bad reviews about SDoiT at the time also. So no album is immune. I think the big
thing they need to figure out is...do they have something to say that they can convey with emotion and soul or is the tank
drained and deep down do they feel like they are just going through the motions, which happens to almost everyone who
has done the same job for almost 30 years. I think they need to dig down deep inside and write about things that impact them
on a personal level so that emotions comes through in the music.

[Peter Mc]

Love how a lot of people on here commenting about DT shows don't actually go to the shows.  I'm pretty sure at least one guy has stated in the past that he has not attended a show since MP left but still comments on the band lacking energy and lacking connection with the crowd.  What is this based on, youtube videos?

I have been to every tour from FII onwards and there is no noticeable change in the connection with fans.  There was a period in the early Roadrunner years where DT started to gain some younger hardcore metal fans and, yes the crowd was a bit livelier.  The band have since moved back more towards their more melodic prog metal roots and we are back to more beard stroking people watching the show rather than big metal fans.

Set lists are static but I only tend to go to one show on each tour run so not really an issue for me or the vast majority of people.  At the end of the day though I've seen the band in 2016 and 2017 and saw a completely different 3 hour sets so cannot have any complaints.  Songs have been massively varied from tour to tour so again, I can't have any complaints.

Saw the recent show in Manchester and did not have any sensation that the band were miles back on the stage or disconnected although the pictures do show they were quite far back.  It was the most connected I have ever felt to JLB, he was really engaging and sang his ass off and the band were as active as they have ever been.  They have never been hugely active on stage as the stuff they play is kind of tricky.  I can accept that there is less improvisation live and they tend to play the album versions of songs but there was more of this on this latest show with JP really seeming like he could let loose a few times and he was really incredible in this show.

I am not suggesting MP added nothing, he absolutely did, and, for sentimental reasons, I would loved him to be a part of these shows but there is not the gaping hole on stage that people would have you believe.  DT are still an incredible live act and this show is definitely worth £50.00 of your money.  I do get the people who don't like The Astonishing album and tour as it was such a departure for them and a big gamble.  I don't think this should turn people off to the band though as I don't think for one second that this type of broadway musical style tunes will carry on to the next album.

Stop watching youtube and get out to a show on this historic tour.

[cfmoran13]

The main way any album becomes a "grower" is repeat listens.  Personally speaking, I don't care for TA at all.  And, it's not going to be a "grower" for me simply because I don't have the time or desire to give it more repeat listens.  I don't know if I'll ever listen to the album again. 

For over two decades, DT has been my favorite band.  For the next release, I'm mainly praying for what emtee described.  I really hope the emotional well he mentioned has not run dry.  If so, my days of caring about anything new from DT may be over.  I have over 25 years of cherished music and concert experiences to hold onto.  I don't care it it's proggy, metal or whatever.  Selfishly speaking, I just want something that resonates with me personally.

[rumborak]

do they have something to say that they can convey with emotion and soul or is the tank
drained and deep down do they feel like they are just going through the motions, which happens to almost everyone who
has done the same job for almost 30 years. I think they need to dig down deep inside and write about things that impact them
on a personal level so that emotions comes through in the music.

That's partially my problem with at least TA. I mean, the overall topic of the album is essentially "modern music sucks, old school is where it's at". When we slowly learned about the album before it came out, I was hoping for some really cool amalgamate of DT rock and electronic stuff, a battle between NOMACs and the militia. In the end I couldn't shake the feeling that JP couldn't do a good job at folding it into the musical story of TA because he's just not in touch with what's happening musically these days. It was left at a very superficial statement about modern music in the end.

[ToT-147]

You can't say 1 listen is the same as 100.. For what I've heard and read, I can say that TA is a grower, so it does matter..

Again, let's agree to disagree. But just to be clear, what you're speaking of is hypotheticals, not what the present reality is. Hypothetically I could eventually develop a love for Depeche Mode's album "Sounds of the Universe", but after several repeated listens, none of the tracks do anything for me. Maybe if I listen to the songs 100 times, I'll be won over, but frankly, I'd rather listen to their earlier stuff that I really enjoy rather than this album, just in the hopes that it will click with me. What would my opinion be? "They may have worked hard on the album, but I can't stand it. In my opinion, it sucks." And yet I'm sure there are plenty of fans who would tell me that the album grows on you. The same is true for any other band or any album. For what we are talking about (counting the feelings/opinions/reactions of people towards TA), hypotheticals don't count, only what people feel at the moment.

What I'm trying to say is precisely that we should be considering that factor too, and not stay with those static and poorly argued opinions.. The fact that you wouldn't prefer listening to an album that you didn't like in first listen doesn't mean everyone else would do that; and since the concept of "grower" exists, and you can have a lot of examples of it actually (and not hypotetically) happening, before in general -and especially with prog music-, and even now with DT's TA, you can't deny it's part of the reality..*

So yes, to think that people will like certain album after more listens might be hypotetical, but it's not less hypotetical to think that they won't like it with more listens..

The main way any album becomes a "grower" is repeat listens.  Personally speaking, I don't care for TA at all.  And, it's not going to be a "grower" for me simply because I don't have the time or desire to give it more repeat listens.  I don't know if I'll ever listen to the album again. 

See?.. This is what I've been reading over and over again.. They just don't care.. They don't say the album sucks, because they haven't listened it the enough times to judge it, and that's fine, everyone can do whatever they want with the music they listen or not, and I myself have done that with albums from other bands, and even with whole bands..

*For instance, artists like Steven Wilson, that I know many of you admire, I listened to some of his (solo and PT) albums and while I did like one than other song or moment, I didn't like the music as a whole, and that's why I haven't even tried since then to listen to more of his stuff.. So, now: the albums that I didn't listen of him, I could say that I don't care for them, and that I probably won't like them even if I'd listen to them 100 of times.... but can I say that I don't -actually- like them?.. Nope.. If I say it, that would be hypotetical..

[hefdaddy42]

When I think of a "grower" it is something that grows from "This is OK" to "This is pretty good" or "This is awesome".  It's never something that grows from "This is awful".  Because if it's awful, why would you listen to it that many times?

If you listen to something and you find it disappointing, it makes sense to give it another chance or two.  But who listens to something they don't like 10 times to try to make themselves like it?  Not me, and not anyone I know.

And I see no reason why you can't say that you don't like Steven Wilson.  Why not?  If you don't like him, you don't like him.  No reason to keep giving him chances.

[bosk1]

We can argue about it all day long, and to a great extent, that's fine.  I mean, that's what a discussion forum is for (provided it is done within the rules and not just pointless bashing of each others' opinions).  But at the end of the day, there really isn't much controversy. 

It all boils down to this:  The fan base is far too large and opinions on the album are far too diverse to make generalizations about how "the fans" feel about the album.  All DT albums seem somewhat divisive in terms of how the fans react.  When we're as close to the music as most of us who post on a forum tend to get, we tend to lose sight of how different from the mainstream DT's music is.  There's a lot going on on any given album.  So there are lots of reasons why people may or may not like an album.  With The Astonishing, the band departed quite a bit from the norm and did something outside the box.  So this album is even more divisive than the norm for DT.  Nobody can really disagree with that.

But are fans, en masse, boycotting DT and hating what they did on this album?  The numbers don't really support that.  From an artistic standpoint, I think the album is most definitely a success in that they set out to accomplish something and did so to a level that I think they are, for the most part, completely satisfied with.  Was it successful from a sales standpoint?  I would still say yes.  Granted, it may not have sold as many copies as they would like, and due to a variety of factors, it did not sell as many concert tickets as they would have liked.  I get that.  And the band gets that.  But they still had a lot of happy fans at shows all over the world, and they toured quite a bit on this album.  And I think that, while the band (and JP especially) would have loved it if TA became the band's most successful album to date and would have received resounding acclaim from the fan base, I don't think anyone in the band realistically expected that.  But they shook things up, and even if the numbers may be somewhat below expectations, the band still came out of this fine.  And most of the fan base that even disliked the album, from what I have seen, respect that the band had the drive and the guts to try something fresh, even if they may feel that the result fell flat.

So, bottom line for me is, while I can understand the vocal dislike of some, I don't get the more extreme statements people try to make about the fan base being divided over the album or the album being a failure or whatever.  But, hey, still kinda cool that the band is done touring on the album and we're STILL talking about it. 

[Podaar]

I just want to add, Scotty, Sounds Of The Universe is fantastic. 

[bosk1]

When I think of a "grower" it is something that grows from "This is OK" to "This is pretty good" or "This is awesome".  It's never something that grows from "This is awful".  Because if it's awful, why would you listen to it that many times?

Yeah, I dunno.  It's pretty subjective how those kinds of things tend to work for me.  If something is REALLY highly recommended, or if I feel like it is something I should like and that I am just missing something for some reason, I may give it more chances.  For instance, I hated Redemption's last album when I first bought it.  In general, it felt flat and lifeless, and didn't resonate with me.  And there were also specific things I could point to that I disliked about it.  But I like that group so much, and felt like I really should like the album more than I did.  And on top of that, to hear Nick VanDyk talk about it a bit, I just felt like maybe I was missing the point.  So I listened a few more times.  And it started to click.  I still rank it a good ways behind its two predecessor albums, but I ended up going from "I don't like this much at all" to "yeah, this is actually pretty good." 

Another example I could point to for me is Maiden in general.  I missed out on them in the '80s altogether.  Over the years, I listened a bit here and there, but they did nothing for me.  Then about 5 years ago, based on some strong recommendations, I gave them a serious shot.  And if you were following the two Maiden threads (the regular one and the discography one), you know that I now consider myself a fan and have bought a bunch of their albums. 

I agree with your general premise that if you just don't like something, it often doesn't make sense to re-listen and try to make it grow on you or try to make yourself find something you like.  Wilson is a perfect example.  I've heard enough from him to know his music doesn't interest me at all.  There is plenty of music that I do like, so there is zero reason to spend time trying to find reasons to listen to him.  Just saying that, often times, it isn't quite that black and white.

[hefdaddy42]

So give him another shot.

[bosk1]

                                             The point --->  O




     O ) ) ) )
      ^You are here.

[hefdaddy42]

It's a joke.

But that was funny.

[bosk1]

I know. 

[hefdaddy42]

Your confidence is sexy.

*waits for mainly DT-side regulars to get uncomfortable*

[Setlist Scotty]

The main way any album becomes a "grower" is repeat listens.  Personally speaking, I don't care for TA at all.  And, it's not going to be a "grower" for me simply because I don't have the time or desire to give it more repeat listens.  I don't know if I'll ever listen to the album again. 

See?.. This is what I've been reading over and over again.. They just don't care.. They don't say the album sucks, because they haven't listened it the enough times to judge it, and that's fine, everyone can do whatever they want with the music they listen or not, and I myself have done that with albums from other bands, and even with whole bands..

OK, to settle this argument, Craig - what is your opinion of TA? Is it "really good," better than "really good" or worse than "really good?"

[Dream Team]

Tbh, every album has been polarizing to some extent or other - the only two albums that HAVEN'T caused big "mass exodus" are Awake and SFAM. FII almost broke the band both through the internal struggles and through the reception from the fans. SFAM was the "saving grace", but I do remember SDOIT as a hugely controversial album when it was first released. So many people hated on the experimental sounding parts, and the heavieness of certain tracks. Some people only accepted the second disc as "good", others only the first disc. And TOT was even more so, due to the heaviness.

I mean, look at the interview my father did with MP in 2004, at 6:14: https://vimeo.com/87984609

Wait, you're claiming I&W was polarizing and caused mass exodus?

[rumborak]

Well, it *was* the downfall of the Charlie Fanclub^©.

[ToT-147]

When I think of a "grower" it is something that grows from "This is OK" to "This is pretty good" or "This is awesome".  It's never something that grows from "This is awful".  Because if it's awful, why would you listen to it that many times?

If you listen to something and you find it disappointing, it makes sense to give it another chance or two.  But who listens to something they don't like 10 times to try to make themselves like it?  Not me, and not anyone I know.

And I see no reason why you can't say that you don't like Steven Wilson.  Why not?  If you don't like him, you don't like him.  No reason to keep giving him chances.

Ok, what a "grower" means can be subjetive as well (I mean, as well as opinions).. But I wasn't saying that you should give 10 or 5 and not 2 chances to an album that you didn't like at first.. Again, that's on each one.. If by the fourth or fifth listen of TA I'd still have disliked it and it wouldn't have grown not a bit, then I wouldn't have kept listening to it, not at least until a few weeks maybe, but the probability of it to grow on me would've been almost nil..

About Wilson, yes, I don't like him (as I already said it: "I don't like his music as a whole", which is the same).. What I meant after was that I can't say that I don't like the albums that I haven't listened, or that I listened once and didn't care, from him or any other band.. That you don't care about something doesn't mean that you don't like it; and I think this is the case of many of those who don't think TA is good..

OK, to settle this argument, Craig - what is your opinion of TA? Is it "really good," better than "really good" or worse than "really good?"

But he already said he doesn't care for the album, and, besides, my argument doesn't depend on one particular opinion .. Anyways, I think my posture is clearer with what I responded above to hefdaddy42..

[noxon]

Wait, you're claiming I&W was polarizing and caused mass exodus?

Of course not - there wasn't really a fan base to speak of when IAW was released

[bosk1]

@Noxon:  Sorry for off topic, but:  Did you see my PM?

[Madman Shepherd]

We can argue about it all day long, and to a great extent, that's fine.  I mean, that's what a discussion forum is for (provided it is done within the rules and not just pointless bashing of each others' opinions).  But at the end of the day, there really isn't much controversy. 

It all boils down to this:  The fan base is far too large and opinions on the album are far too diverse to make generalizations about how "the fans" feel about the album.  All DT albums seem somewhat divisive in terms of how the fans react.  When we're as close to the music as most of us who post on a forum tend to get, we tend to lose sight of how different from the mainstream DT's music is.  There's a lot going on on any given album.  So there are lots of reasons why people may or may not like an album.  With The Astonishing, the band departed quite a bit from the norm and did something outside the box.  So this album is even more divisive than the norm for DT.  Nobody can really disagree with that.

But are fans, en masse, boycotting DT and hating what they did on this album?  The numbers don't really support that.  From an artistic standpoint, I think the album is most definitely a success in that they set out to accomplish something and did so to a level that I think they are, for the most part, completely satisfied with.  Was it successful from a sales standpoint?  I would still say yes.  Granted, it may not have sold as many copies as they would like, and due to a variety of factors, it did not sell as many concert tickets as they would have liked.  I get that.  And the band gets that.  But they still had a lot of happy fans at shows all over the world, and they toured quite a bit on this album.  And I think that, while the band (and JP especially) would have loved it if TA became the band's most successful album to date and would have received resounding acclaim from the fan base, I don't think anyone in the band realistically expected that.  But they shook things up, and even if the numbers may be somewhat below expectations, the band still came out of this fine.  And most of the fan base that even disliked the album, from what I have seen, respect that the band had the drive and the guts to try something fresh, even if they may feel that the result fell flat.

So, bottom line for me is, while I can understand the vocal dislike of some, I don't get the more extreme statements people try to make about the fan base being divided over the album or the album being a failure or whatever.  But, hey, still kinda cool that the band is done touring on the album and we're STILL talking about it. 

I think this is the most accurate assessment of the album and I am saying that as someone that kinda hated it.  I'm honestly surprised as many people like it as they did but also the albums seemed to hit a little below expectations.  It was in no way a flop.  It just wasn't the success they had hoped for. 

With that said, DT gave us what we wanted: A concept double album.  They just didn't give me what I really wanted: a concept double album that I liked.  I can deal with that and while I wish them all the success in the world, I'm *somewhat* relieved it wasn't a bigger success because I don't think I would attend another show with even half the songs from TA.  As it stands, they have chosen a few of the best from that album for the current set so I'm A-OK with that. 

[noxon]

@Noxon:  Sorry for off topic, but:  Did you see my PM?

I did, but as you are aware (by the reciept of the package) the turnaround time for my responses is about 1.5 years

Nah, i'll get back to you soon.

[bosk1]

[rumborak]

I for the most part agree with the most recent posts. In the end, you will always find someone who thinks the new album is the peak of their career, and you'll find someone who says it's the bottom of their career. On a Dream Theater Forum, that's to be expected, and we even have an informal rule for it here: "for every weird opinion about DT, wait long enough and you'll see it posted eventually".

What brings in the monies and fills the ranks aren't the DTFers, it's the mushy mass that doesn't view DT as their favorite band, but still will check out a new album, and if they liked it, will try to see the band live. For TA, that mushy mass seems to have placed TA in the lower half of things, and I think we're still seeing the outcome of that. DT used to be able to comfortably do two runs through Europe, but for both the TA tour and the IAW tour now, the second run is thinning out.

What I'm afraid of is that this negative experience to their monumental effort will make them play it safe for the next album. I've always said that while I don't like TA, I totally appreciate them taking a chance. I hope money considerations force them into a safe path.

[cfmoran13]

OK, to settle this argument, Craig - what is your opinion of TA? Is it "really good," better than "really good" or worse than "really good?"

If you want me to use your general terms, TA is "worse than "really good"".  If you want me to be more specific, TA is (IMO) the worst James-era album DT has released.

[KevShmev]

Love how a lot of people on here commenting about DT shows don't actually go to the shows.  I'm pretty sure at least one guy has stated in the past that he has not attended a show since MP left but still comments on the band lacking energy and lacking connection with the crowd.  What is this based on, youtube videos?

I have been to every tour from FII onwards and there is no noticeable change in the connection with fans.  There was a period in the early Roadrunner years where DT started to gain some younger hardcore metal fans and, yes the crowd was a bit livelier.  The band have since moved back more towards their more melodic prog metal roots and we are back to more beard stroking people watching the show rather than big metal fans.

Set lists are static but I only tend to go to one show on each tour run so not really an issue for me or the vast majority of people.  At the end of the day though I've seen the band in 2016 and 2017 and saw a completely different 3 hour sets so cannot have any complaints.  Songs have been massively varied from tour to tour so again, I can't have any complaints.

Saw the recent show in Manchester and did not have any sensation that the band were miles back on the stage or disconnected although the pictures do show they were quite far back.  It was the most connected I have ever felt to JLB, he was really engaging and sang his ass off and the band were as active as they have ever been.  They have never been hugely active on stage as the stuff they play is kind of tricky.  I can accept that there is less improvisation live and they tend to play the album versions of songs but there was more of this on this latest show with JP really seeming like he could let loose a few times and he was really incredible in this show.

I am not suggesting MP added nothing, he absolutely did, and, for sentimental reasons, I would loved him to be a part of these shows but there is not the gaping hole on stage that people would have you believe.  DT are still an incredible live act and this show is definitely worth £50.00 of your money.  I do get the people who don't like The Astonishing album and tour as it was such a departure for them and a big gamble.  I don't think this should turn people off to the band though as I don't think for one second that this type of broadway musical style tunes will carry on to the next album.

Stop watching youtube and get out to a show on this historic tour.

Great post!

Honestly, I think there are some (a handful or so of people on this forum, for one) who want to not like anything without Portnoy.  These are peeps who are always the first ones to stick up for Portnoy whenever there is controversy or anything regarding him, and surprise, surprise, these same posters rarely have much good to say about the music in the Mangini era.  It's kind of sad, really.  It's like they are going out of their way to not like music by one of their favorite bands. 

[Bertielee]

Love how a lot of people on here commenting about DT shows don't actually go to the shows.  I'm pretty sure at least one guy has stated in the past that he has not attended a show since MP left but still comments on the band lacking energy and lacking connection with the crowd.  What is this based on, youtube videos?

I have been to every tour from FII onwards and there is no noticeable change in the connection with fans.  There was a period in the early Roadrunner years where DT started to gain some younger hardcore metal fans and, yes the crowd was a bit livelier.  The band have since moved back more towards their more melodic prog metal roots and we are back to more beard stroking people watching the show rather than big metal fans.

Set lists are static but I only tend to go to one show on each tour run so not really an issue for me or the vast majority of people.  At the end of the day though I've seen the band in 2016 and 2017 and saw a completely different 3 hour sets so cannot have any complaints.  Songs have been massively varied from tour to tour so again, I can't have any complaints.

Saw the recent show in Manchester and did not have any sensation that the band were miles back on the stage or disconnected although the pictures do show they were quite far back.  It was the most connected I have ever felt to JLB, he was really engaging and sang his ass off and the band were as active as they have ever been.  They have never been hugely active on stage as the stuff they play is kind of tricky.  I can accept that there is less improvisation live and they tend to play the album versions of songs but there was more of this on this latest show with JP really seeming like he could let loose a few times and he was really incredible in this show.

I am not suggesting MP added nothing, he absolutely did, and, for sentimental reasons, I would loved him to be a part of these shows but there is not the gaping hole on stage that people would have you believe.  DT are still an incredible live act and this show is definitely worth £50.00 of your money.  I do get the people who don't like The Astonishing album and tour as it was such a departure for them and a big gamble.  I don't think this should turn people off to the band though as I don't think for one second that this type of broadway musical style tunes will carry on to the next album.

Stop watching youtube and get out to a show on this historic tour.

Great post!

Honestly, I think there are some (a handful or so of people on this forum, for one) who want to not like anything without Portnoy.  These are peeps who are always the first ones to stick up for Portnoy whenever there is controversy or anything regarding him, and surprise, surprise, these same posters rarely have much good to say about the music in the Mangini era.  It's kind of sad, really.  It's like they are going out of their way to not like music by one of their favorite bands. 

Hence my previous remark on stereotypical opinions. Yet, I would also extend it to those who think DT can do no wrong. With that being said, being a DTFer has become exhausting these days.

B.Lee

[Prog Snob]

It feels like nearly every album post-6DOIT has been polarizing, to varying degrees.

Six degrees?