Author Topic: Dear Dream Theater  (Read 21553 times)

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Offline Podaar

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2017, 02:31:29 PM »
 :lol at bosk1

Hey, King. I want to take the Bender crown away from you, thus, I throw down the gauntlet. The biggest hangover on Monday morning wins.
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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #176 on: April 21, 2017, 02:32:52 PM »
I apologize for the beat down you will encounter. :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2017, 02:39:33 PM »
I should have specified "lack of" in my post.
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Offline TAC

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2017, 02:42:39 PM »
How is this thread 6 pages??
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Podaar

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2017, 02:48:07 PM »
Because of...

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2017, 02:48:21 PM »
By people posting but that's not important right now.
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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2017, 03:23:38 PM »
See, this is why I avoid DT-side even more than P/R.  I don't know if this was mentioned or not - I only allowed myself the pain of the last page - but I'm guessing that the OP does not have a grasp on how basic economic factors such as supply/demand, market forces, fixed/variable costs etc... play in setting prices to determine not only A) break even but B) profit maximization ?  I'm sure the promoter(s) has a handle on it, so let's leave pricing strategies to the professionals.

Relative to other bands (I'm looking at you, Metallica), Dream Theater is still a lower priced ticket.  Hell, Scorps are charging close to $100USD for the "cheap seats" on their upcoming Crazy World Tour.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2017, 05:13:20 PM »
Hell, Scorps are charging close to $100USD for the "cheap seats" on their upcoming Crazy World Tour.

Really?  I got two tickets for Scorpions and Megadeath at MSG for 44 bucks each (after fees)  Front row in the top section (cheap seats, but a good cheap seats).

Edited to fix my price, I was off by a bit.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 08:19:28 PM by cramx3 »

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2017, 05:47:32 PM »
Relative to other bands (I'm looking at you, Metallica), Dream Theater is still a lower priced ticket.

Well, yes, but only relative to other bands, as you're saying.. The fact that biggest bands are pricey doesn't cancel the expensive DT's -and many other bands'- prices are..
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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2017, 06:15:15 PM »
Maybe to you but DT are reasonable compared to other bands  these days. 
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2017, 08:00:58 PM »
Definitely agree. I was very surprised back in the day for how cheap the BTFW tickets went. I assumed with all the hooplah of DVD filming and live orchestra they'd be in the $80-$100 range, but they actually cost $50 IIRC.
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2017, 08:29:52 PM »
See, this is why I avoid DT-side even more than P/R.  I don't know if this was mentioned or not - I only allowed myself the pain of the last page - but I'm guessing that the OP does not have a grasp on how basic economic factors such as supply/demand, market forces, fixed/variable costs etc... play in setting prices to determine not only A) break even but B) profit maximization ?  I'm sure the promoter(s) has a handle on it, so let's leave pricing strategies to the professionals.

Relative to other bands (I'm looking at you, Metallica), Dream Theater is still a lower priced ticket.  Hell, Scorps are charging close to $100USD for the "cheap seats" on their upcoming Crazy World Tour.

Scorpions have become gold diggers. They are up to their third farewell tour.
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Offline red barchetta

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2017, 08:33:58 PM »
For me DT tickets are reasonable. 50, 80, 100$ cdn is very acceptable. They usually put on a very good show. Sports tickets (especially hockey) is a total disgrace.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2017, 09:23:21 PM »
BTW here's my reply to KevShmev:


Quote
Were any of those official bootlegs free?

Of course not. But the videos MP offered up on his site every year were, as were the fan club CDs that were released (and he was directly involved in 9 of them). Even then, I'd still rather have the choice of purchasing numerous official bootlegs rather than get just one free.

Okay.

Quote
You seem to forget that the set lists had gotten pretty static late in Portnoy's tenure with the band. I doubt they will ever rotate set lists again like they did from 2002-2006.  Even if Portnoy had stayed in the band, it never would have been like that again on a regular basis.

The setlists were still more varied in MP's later years with the band than what DT did on the ADToE tour. Sure there were staple songs that MP made sure were in most setlists, but those comprised half the setlist at most. Look at the shows where they did 2 shows in a row in the same city, even in 2008-2010 and you'll see the setlists are extremely different. As for what would've happened if he had stayed with the band, that's all conjecture; I could say just the opposite.

Okay.


Quote
That is true, but the fact remains that a double disc concept album is still something they have given us that they never did when Portnoy was in the band, so taking the "DT doesn't do things they did when MP was in the band" stance ignores the fact that DT IS doing things they never did with Portnoy.

Again, we're talking about what the band has done for the fans, and I'd say putting out a divisive album, whether a concept album, a double album or both still is a negative. And this point of your's is really splitting hairs. While MP was with the band, they put out one pure concept album; three if you count the second disc of Six Degrees and Octavarium. And they did put out a double album, half of which is certainly a concept album on it's own.

There is no such thing as half of a concept album.  The title track from Six Degrees is a song, not half a concept album.

Is Scenes from a Memory better than The Astonishing?  Absolutely.

Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes?  Absolutely.


Quote
That some diehard fans love.  Not everyone loved them covering albums/songs, just like not everyone loved them playing Space Dye Vest.

Sure not everyone's going to love all the covers, but there were plenty that did and it was just one more extra that made DT stand out as different to them.

DT playing covers made them different?  Er, no.  DT was not the first band to play covers, ya know.


Quote
As for "playing just about everything else in the catalog," in the tours since they started touring with Mangini six years ago, Dream Theater has played, from their studio albums, around 90 of their songs.  They have done a tremendous job of covering a shit load of songs from their career in the last six years, even if they do not rotate set lists like the early to mid 00s.

You know, for curiosity's sake, I took the time to compare the list of songs over equal time periods (2004-2010 vs. 2011-2017) because I wanted to see how true your statement is. Here's what I found (based on studio versions of the songs):
- from 2011-2017, they played 91 different songs (not including the No-Mac tracks) totaling 10 hours, 3 minutes + 3 covers for an additional 19 minutes = 94 songs/10h 22m
- from 2004-2010, they played 85 different songs totaling 11 hours, 33 minutes + 40 different complete covers for an additional 4 hours, 43 minutes (based on official bootlegs) = 125 songs/16h 16m
I'm surprised that there's not a bigger difference than there is for DT originals, but with MP there still is 1.5 hours of more material that was performed than without him. The higher number of songs from the MM-era is obviously because of TA's short songs. I know you'll argue that the covers shouldn't count, but I would say they should since they were part of the live set. The fact that MP managed to cover as much ground as he did with DT's originals and all those covers in that time period is a testament to him.

No, it is a testament to the band as a whole, as them continuing to play so many of their own songs is.  The band as a whole gets props for how good they have been over the entire career at playing so many of their songs from year to year, tour to tour. 

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #189 on: April 21, 2017, 10:14:31 PM »
Maybe to you but DT are reasonable compared to other bands  these days.

To me and many other people.. And, again, not because other bands are more expensive we should think DT prices are right.. Having said all this, I do admit and understand the reasons behind the high prices.. All the things they have to paid and such... but then again, that doesn't make the ticket price any cheaper either..


Also, I think we're running in circles......
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #190 on: April 22, 2017, 03:39:29 AM »
Maybe to you but DT are reasonable compared to other bands  these days.

To me and many other people.. And, again, not because other bands are more expensive we should think DT prices are right.. Having said all this, I do admit and understand the reasons behind the high prices.. All the things they have to paid and such... but then again, that doesn't make the ticket price any cheaper either..


Also, I think we're running in circles......

6 pages in, it was bound to be.
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Offline phospheneSOI

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #191 on: April 22, 2017, 03:53:21 AM »
See, this is why I avoid DT-side even more than P/R.  I don't know if this was mentioned or not - I only allowed myself the pain of the last page - but I'm guessing that the OP does not have a grasp on how basic economic factors such as supply/demand, market forces, fixed/variable costs etc... play in setting prices to determine not only A) break even but B) profit maximization ?  I'm sure the promoter(s) has a handle on it, so let's leave pricing strategies to the professionals.

They they have such a handle on it that they can't sell the seats.

I do understand those factors but it doesn't seem to add up.

 Slipknot played the same venue last year with Korn last year and the GA tickets were cheaper than DT's cheapest tickets. With their stage show too...

Like I said, I don't get it.
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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #192 on: April 22, 2017, 06:09:16 AM »
This is a BUSINESS, designed to make MONEY.  You seem to think more bums in seats = more money. It's economics dude. They could lower the price, sell more seats, and make less money. You seemingly don't understand math/economics.

Let's say they sell 200 seats at the lowest price section for €50 (as you said). If they lower that to €30 as you say is "more reasonable", they have to sell 133 more tickets to make the same revenue. I don't know the demand in your market, but presumably the promoter does.  Not to mention that the upper tier prices would likely need to be lowered.
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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #193 on: April 22, 2017, 06:44:41 AM »
And that is how you get it folks.
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Offline Train of Naught

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #194 on: April 22, 2017, 06:53:25 AM »
To be fair, a lot of the revenue is gained from the drinks and most contracts of performing artists allow a share of that as well from the venue.

I think 50 euros is a fairly reasonable price but when I wanted to see them the cheapest seat was about 70, significant difference. Dream Theater are definitely more expensive than other bands in the same popularity range - that's a fact - but I'm perfectly fine with that, as should every fan IMO. They offer something most bands don't which is a less show-oriented concert and make it more about the musicians performing the songs as excellent as possible, and from my experience that can be just as entertaining as a crazy energetic concert, if not more entertaining.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #195 on: April 22, 2017, 08:40:45 AM »
I don't know where else to put this, but I was just listening to Kraftwerk's "Boing Boom Tschak" and thought how badass it would be for JR and MM to cover this live. MM could lead into it at the end of his drum solo, him playing midi drums.
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Offline MinistroRaven

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #196 on: April 22, 2017, 05:53:12 PM »
Still working on my multiquotes skills LOL

At KevShmev

Quote
There is no such thing as half of a concept album.  The title track from Six Degrees is a song, not half a concept album.
Okay. My point stands that DT already did both things (a concept album and a double album) with MP, just not on the same album.
 
Quote
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes?  Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.

Quote
DT playing covers made them different?  Er, no.  DT was not the first band to play covers, ya know.
Since when did I say they were the first ones to play covers? I never even made the claim that they were the first to cover entire albums. But doing those covers, in particular the full albums after doing a 1.5 hour set of their own material on the second night of a two-night stand on Evening With tours did make them stand out as different. It was something fans could count on happening once the tradition was established and new tour dates announced. How many other bands can you name that did the same thing?

Quote
No, it is a testament to the band as a whole, as them continuing to play so many of their own songs is.  The band as a whole gets props for how good they have been over the entire career at playing so many of their songs from year to year, tour to tour.
True, but MP had pushed them to do this, seeing as he wrote all the setlists. And since then they have followed the pattern he establish when coming up with the mostly static setlists for each tour, not falling into the habit of playing at least 4-5 perennial favorites at every show on every tour like Rush, Maiden and many other bands.

Offline ToT-147

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #197 on: April 22, 2017, 06:37:47 PM »
Quote
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes?  Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.

I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..

As for the covers, that would be another thing to do a poll for.. I, for one, don't like when they play covers; but this is just me and I don't have a single clue what's the general opinion about it..
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Offline Bertielee

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #198 on: April 23, 2017, 02:09:35 AM »
Quote
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes?  Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.

I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..

As for the covers, that would be another thing to do a poll for.. I, for one, don't like when they play covers; but this is just me and I don't have a single clue what's the general opinion about it..

All this for me as well. And, as you said it TOT, please people, stop generalizing.

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Offline SwedishGoose

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #199 on: April 23, 2017, 05:04:49 AM »
Saw them twice on the Astonishing tour... saw them once and will see them again on the I&WaB tour so no I don't think the prices are too high..... hate the concept of golden circle though

The Astonoshing Album and tour is to me the best they have done yet and I have been a fan since I&W came out... saw them on that tour and most tours after

Sure playing a whole album as a cover is cool but I would rather want them to play their own material.

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #200 on: April 23, 2017, 05:26:42 AM »
Quote
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes?  Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.

I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..

As for the covers, that would be another thing to do a poll for.. I, for one, don't like when they play covers; but this is just me and I don't have a single clue what's the general opinion about it..

For me, it depends from band to band, and still in the heat of the moment a cover here and there is cool. During the Evening With tour for Train of Thought, they played Hallowed Be Thy Name at my show, as first encore, and being a big Maiden fan I loved it. But with DT, who have so many albums with so many (long) songs, I think that even the best of covers could be replaced by literally ANY song of their own catalog.

I liked when they slipped Enter Sandman at the end of As I Am in the current tour, little homages here and there are cool, but by now the back catalog is simply so vast to make room for covers... then again if at a concert they pull out a fantastic cover of a song I personally like, I sure wouldn't mind it that much.
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Offline Nitefly

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #201 on: April 23, 2017, 04:30:57 PM »
So the Cardiff gig was a lot of fun - I had a bland and thought the singing was too notch.

The solution to the empty seats was to shuffle people in the crappy seats to them... I think this probably peeved off a few people that paid for the mid seat tickets when people that paid for the cheap ones got to sit in the highest bracket ones... I was near the front anyway so didn't care and, hey, good for those people I guess :)

Offline cramx3

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #202 on: April 24, 2017, 09:23:18 AM »
So the Cardiff gig was a lot of fun - I had a bland and thought the singing was too notch.

The solution to the empty seats was to shuffle people in the crappy seats to them... I think this probably peeved off a few people that paid for the mid seat tickets when people that paid for the cheap ones got to sit in the highest bracket ones... I was near the front anyway so didn't care and, hey, good for those people I guess :)

I had that happen once before as well during the ADTOE tour.  Paid $15 for a ticket and sat next to the people paying $60+.

Offline MinistroRaven

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #203 on: April 24, 2017, 04:09:45 PM »
Quote
Is The Astonishing still really good, despite not being as good as Scenes?  Absolutely
.
A sizable chunk of the fanbase would disagree with that statement.

I don't think so.. Maybe you're confusing yourself with the fact that the majority has it in the last places of their ranking, but that's something else..


Is James LaBrie confused too?

Dream Theater's James Labrie says that "The Astonishing" was a bold and a courageous move, but that it also polarised band's fans.
Read more at: https://www.prog-sphere.com/specials/james-labrie-about-the-astonishing/

Offline bosk1

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #204 on: April 24, 2017, 04:13:49 PM »
Why should he?  What James said and what you said are two different things.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #205 on: April 24, 2017, 04:16:08 PM »
Agreed. Polarizing the fan base and saying most have it last place in the rankings aren't the same.  I do agree that it did polarize the fans though.  Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top.  That is polarizing.

Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #206 on: April 24, 2017, 05:00:26 PM »
Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top.  That is polarizing.
Exactly, and I think that's what Ministro was driving at (correct me if I'm wrong, Ministro). To me, "a sizable chunk" does not equate to the whole fanbase, most of it or even half of it. There's plenty of fans who feel TA is decent, mediocre, terrible, the worst etc. - in other words, less than "really good". So I don't think what Ministro is saying is unfair or untrue, tho it doesn't fit the majority of the fans here.
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Offline cramx3

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #207 on: April 24, 2017, 05:06:49 PM »
Plenty of people say it's the worst, but there are fans who also think it's the best or near the top.  That is polarizing.
Exactly, and I think that's what Ministro was driving at (correct me if I'm wrong, Ministro). To me, "a sizable chunk" does not equate to the whole fanbase, most of it or even half of it. There's plenty of fans who feel TA is decent, mediocre, terrible, the worst etc. - in other words, less than "really good". So I don't think what Ministro is saying is unfair or untrue, tho it doesn't fit the majority of the fans here.

I have no issues or think there's anything wrong with Ministro's comments.  I disagree more so with ToT.  I do know many people place it last, but it's not the majority (although probably a sizeable amount) and JLB got it right.  The album was bold and it polarized the fan base. 

Offline KevShmev

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #208 on: April 24, 2017, 05:08:14 PM »
It feels like nearly every album post-6DOIT has been polarizing, to varying degrees.

Offline noxon

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Re: Dear Dream Theater
« Reply #209 on: April 24, 2017, 05:39:06 PM »
Tbh, every album has been polarizing to some extent or other - the only two albums that HAVEN'T caused big "mass exodus" are Awake and SFAM. FII almost broke the band both through the internal struggles and through the reception from the fans. SFAM was the "saving grace", but I do remember SDOIT as a hugely controversial album when it was first released. So many people hated on the experimental sounding parts, and the heavieness of certain tracks. Some people only accepted the second disc as "good", others only the first disc. And TOT was even more so, due to the heaviness.

I mean, look at the interview my father did with MP in 2004, at 6:14: https://vimeo.com/87984609