Author Topic: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon  (Read 5579 times)

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Offline Orbert

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2017, 11:38:36 AM »
It is indeed a ridiculous tradition.  My then-girlfriend (now wife) and I did the somewhat modern thing and went shopping for rings together.  I told her up front that I am not the type to spending thousands of dollars on a piece of jewelry whose dollar value is somehow symbolic for "how much she means to me".  I didn't have a couple grand to spend in the first place, and I could not justify spending that much on a ring anyway, so I had no intention of saving up the required money either.  She would therefore have to face the fact that either she's not getting a chunk of carbon worth thousands of dollars, or she's marrying someone else.  She still wanted to marry me.

We got a cubic zirconia.  A fake.  A couple hundred buck.  1.25 carats, looks awesome, and we never told anyone that it wasn't a real diamond.  Her friends thought it was awesome, her friends thought I was awesome, her mom already thought I was awesome, and all was fine with the world.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2017, 12:07:22 PM »
For a while the industry was trying to get people to go to three months salary.  Glad that didn't catch on.

I would see if she insists on a diamond.  Honestly, I see it as a test of their practicality and worldliness.

DeBeers is one of the most god-awful corporations ever on the face of the planet, and have a near monopoly (estimates are 95+% of jewelry grade diamonds originate from DeBeers) on jewelry grade diamonds.  You've heard of blood diamonds I assume?  Even beyond the notorious shitty treatment of their essentially slave labor, the other way they became the near monopoly is that they simply eliminated competition.  Think guns, bombs, extortion...everything you think of when you think of the Mafia.  Diamonds are not as rare as jewelers want you to believe.  There are places that have tons of diamonds, but they don't put them on the jewelers market because of non-compete contracts with DeBeers that are essentially permanent and transfer to new owners when the mine is sold (In Perpetuity clauses).  I wouldn't want to give them a red cent, even indirectly.

More people than you think have opted for cubic zirconia and other less costly gemstones, and there is a growing movement to do away with gemstones all together.  Being the independent thinker you are, don't let social norms dictate you on an issue that causes no one harm.
     

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2017, 12:09:05 PM »
Quality of the diamond matters.  ask about the grading and sneak around to find out if your gal likes raise or a lowered diamond.  Ask her family members or friends you can trust not to spill the beans.

Luckily, she has a Pintrest page titled "incase I ever say I do" that's nothing but wedding rings. I have a good template to go by. As for talking to her family members, they will be in the dark until the deed is done. Her entire family is a never ending circle of gossip. Her mother and sisters won't keep their mouths shut, and I don't plan on asking her dad for permission.
Heh, is there a story there that we might find entertaining?  :lol

*snip*

I maintained 50% control of everything involved in our wedding.  I gave up nothing, and certainly didn't defer to mothers or other relatives.

We picked out colors, flowers, music, food, EVERYTHING, together, and no one else got a vote.  I only intended to get married once, and it was sure as hell not going to include any elements that I didn't approve of or consent to.

Friendly advice: despite the fact that she's been living with you already, you run a risk of pissing her dad off if you don't ask his permission.  Up to you, of course, but it seems like kind of a strange thing over which to risk potential family strife.  Speaking as a man with a 21 year old daughter, if any future fiance of hers doesn't ask MY permission, he shall know of my disdain for his lack of respect.

Of course, you know him, so you know if he is traditionally minded or not.

What would you consider disrespectful about it? I'm not trying to bait here, I'm genuinely curious. I'm failing to understand why another grown man would need your permission to ask your adult daughter to make an adult decision on her own. Based on your activity here and on Facebook, I'm guessing your daughter has a very good head on her shoulders and sound decision making abilities. She can decide whether she wants to marry someone with or without your consent.
"Permission" is just a word.  It's not like "withholding permission" will mean she can't get married.

But, kind of like Gary said, I have been the man to take responsibility for her, to provide for her, and to support her when she needs it (which, due to multiple reasons, has been substantial).  Once she gets married, I won't completely stop doing all of those things, necessarily, but I will no longer be the primary responsible person - YOU will ("You" meaning the prospective husband).  Asking My permission is showing me the respect to let me know that I can rest assured that my daughter will be in good hands with you, since I will no longer be the #1 man in her life.

Again, it's not about the word "permission", it's about showing respect to your future father-in-law.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2017, 12:20:07 PM »
Quality of the diamond matters.  ask about the grading and sneak around to find out if your gal likes raise or a lowered diamond.  Ask her family members or friends you can trust not to spill the beans.

Luckily, she has a Pintrest page titled "incase I ever say I do" that's nothing but wedding rings. I have a good template to go by. As for talking to her family members, they will be in the dark until the deed is done. Her entire family is a never ending circle of gossip. Her mother and sisters won't keep their mouths shut, and I don't plan on asking her dad for permission.
Heh, is there a story there that we might find entertaining?  :lol

This is only going to reinforce Hef's earlier statement, but I just don't see the point or the need to. Long gone are the days where a man's daughter is basically his property and one literally has to ask for him to give her up (usually in an exchange that benefitted him). His daughter is a grown woman who's been living under my roof for 2.5 years already. In my mind, the permission, blessing, whatever you want to call it has already been granted.

I realize this thread makes me come off as a huge asshole, but it's just where my head is at. There are very few things in life that get under my skin more than doing something for no reason other than the sake of tradition. Her family is going to be massively involved in the wedding, and many of our decisions for that day are going to revolve around them and not necessarily what we'd prefer to do. I'm going to have to get on an altar and say stuff to god and eat Jesus on their behalf. This is an important day for me as well. Call it selfish, but I want a little sliver of the process to go my way as well, and that means keeping it a secret at all costs and not asking her father permission.

The ring and the proposal are going to be the only things throughout this entire process that I will have control over, and I want to do it the way I'd like. Once the planning of the day starts, basically everything is going to boil down to what Victoria, her mom, her sisters, and her aunts want. I will have little say, and the say I do have I'll keep bottled up inside so she can have the day she wants.

Chino, far be it for me, and all that... but I'm divorced and remarried.  My now wife was divorced with three kids (one out of high school) when I met her, and her old husband was an abusive (more mental and verbal) dick.  Her youngest is on the spectrum, and there was at least one suitor who said "You're the bomb (she's smart and a former beauty pageant winner, no shit) but I can't deal with the kids".    So when it came time, I wanted to send a clear message, both to her and her parents.   I asked both mom and dad for permission, more out of respect for them and their family than any literal "she's your property" kind of thing.   

You be you, and I certainly understand your position - clearly - but one thing I've learned through two marriages (and two weddings) is that no matter how hard you try, some of these things are not about you (or your bride).   

The ring is the same thing; you both may profess to not care (though if she has a pinterest page with that, trust me, bro, SHE CARES) but all it takes is one or two comments a year down the road ("Oh, that's so cute! I've never seen a diamond quite that small before!") to change that.    I've done it both ways; I went to private guy the first time, and I went to Zales the second (though the second is a less traditional 'wedding ring' and we did it after the ceremony).  I asked for the manager and did my homework, and basically asked them to get close to a deal I would get from an independent.  If you have the right person (the person that can make the deal) and you approach it the right way, you can get a decent deal from a chain.

Oh, and congratulations!  I'm very happy for you (sincerely).   

Offline Stadler

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2017, 12:33:47 PM »
What would you consider disrespectful about it? I'm not trying to bait here, I'm genuinely curious. I'm failing to understand why another grown man would need your permission to ask your adult daughter to make an adult decision on her own. Based on your activity here and on Facebook, I'm guessing your daughter has a very good head on her shoulders and sound decision making abilities. She can decide whether she wants to marry someone with or without your consent.

I don't have daughters, but I do have kids. And I think once you have kids (if that's what you guys decide to do) you will understand it on a different level. Your reasoning behind why you don't see the need to 'ask permission' is perfectly logical. But, you have to keep in mind that Victoria is that mans daughter, someone he has cared for...nurtured...worried about....laughed with....watched grow up, on and on. Certainly he's proud of who she's become and knows she has the right to choose who she marries and that she's a grown person. But the 'respect' being hinted at is just that. It'd show respect to a man who has sacrificed and dedicated his life essentially to making sure his daughter had every opportunity to succeed, had love..had it all.

It wouldn't be a 'please can I marry your daughter'. It'd be a 'thank you for raising such an incredible person, so incredible in fact that I want to spend the rest of my life with her'.

My daughter is 16, and in boarding school. I'm already feeling a little... despondent that she doesn't need her daddy anymore.   My issue, I get it, but when it comes time for her to take that next step, I can guarantee you, if he doesn't come ask, it will be logged and remembered.  I WAS a decent parent, I DID earn the respect, and if he doesn't know that about our family, then he doesn't know enough to have the PRIVILEGE of my daughter's hand in marriage.

Old fashioned? Yes.  Nave?  Perhaps.  Rather irrational?  Sure.   Am I kidding? Not one bit.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #40 on: April 03, 2017, 12:46:28 PM »
I don't think there's any need to give the old man a heads up. None.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #41 on: April 03, 2017, 12:54:52 PM »
Once the planning of the day starts, basically everything is going to boil down to what Victoria, her mom, her sisters, and her aunts want. I will have little say, and the say I do have I'll keep bottled up inside so she can have the day she wants.

This is the kind of bullshit that makes me so very angry at the idea of "weddings".  Basically it's a day where everybody celebrates the woman and the man is a complete afterthought, despite being half of the couple.  The fact that you would, for one second, have to submit to what her mother, sisters, or aunts want for a day that is as much yours as it is hers, is asinine, with all due respect.  And it happens ALL THE TIME.  This is why when Mrs. C. and I got married, we said "We're going to the Caribbean and getting married on a beach, for anybody that can afford to join us, you're welcome to do so.  If you can't, sorry about your luck."  The only concession we made was choosing a slightly less expensive resort to have it at, so that anyone who DID decide to go would not have to spend AS much, but that was not really even an issue.  The place was perfect for us.

As far ask asking for a blessing/"permission", eh.  I think it's ridiculous also, and I don't think for one second that having a child of my own would change that.  If I did and the guy was good to her and made her happy, then their choice to marry has nothing to do with me.  You'll prove your respect for me by treating her good enough that she never wants to come back home.  I get what people are saying, they put their time in to raise her, etc., but that had nothing to do with you.  They chose to be parents and raise a child, completely independent of your existence.  The parents having chosen to raise a child doesn't (in my opinion) merit a requirement that a person ask for parental input on a decision that they, as two consenting adults, are going to enter into anyway.

THAT SAID - my opinion is on the expected tradition that "thou shalt ask the father".  If she has ANY sort of expectation of you as far as the "dad talk" goes, you have to determine if not doing so is going to upset her in ANY way.  Mrs. C. and I knew we would be getting married at some point, so I got my expectations out of the way long before we got engaged, by just outright asking if the dad talk was an expectation of hers.  She thought it was as asinine an idea as I did and that was that.  If she HAD expected me to do so, despite my not seeing the point, I'd have done it.  Not for him, but to lessen the amount of disappointment on her part.

And this whole 2 months' salary thing is a fucking scam.  Complete madness.  If I spent two months' salary on a ring, that would be that much less to put towards the ACTUAL wedding (and don't get me started on the absolutely stupid amount of money that people literally THROW AWAY for a few hours worth of their time on their wedding day), a honeymoon, a down payment on a home, furnishing expenses, or savings for an emergency.  Ridiculous.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #42 on: April 03, 2017, 12:56:34 PM »
I think that depends on the relationship your fiance and you have with the future in laws.

I wanted to show them the ring and went to my future mother in law's work. (I used to work there)  She was not there and 2 people there saw the ring.  She got word of it and then when we were coming up on 3 years dating, she purposely let it out I had the ring.

Of course I through off the now wife about it and she was completely surprised when I asked her but I will never forgive her mother for doing that.  It was vindictive.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #43 on: April 03, 2017, 01:00:53 PM »
It really is amazing what emotionally irrational assholes people can become where weddings are involved.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #44 on: April 03, 2017, 01:03:48 PM »
The stories I could tell you Coz about her family would make you a murderer.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #45 on: April 03, 2017, 01:05:11 PM »
Once the planning of the day starts, basically everything is going to boil down to what Victoria, her mom, her sisters, and her aunts want. I will have little say, and the say I do have I'll keep bottled up inside so she can have the day she wants.

This is the kind of bullshit that makes me so very angry at the idea of "weddings".  Basically it's a day where everybody celebrates the woman and the man is a complete afterthought, despite being half of the couple.  The fact that you would, for one second, have to submit to what her mother, sisters, or aunts want for a day that is as much yours as it is hers, is asinine, with all due respect.  And it happens ALL THE TIME.  This is why when Mrs. C. and I got married, we said "We're going to the Caribbean and getting married on a beach, for anybody that can afford to join us, you're welcome to do so.  If you can't, sorry about your luck."  The only concession we made was choosing a slightly less expensive resort to have it at, so that anyone who DID decide to go would not have to spend AS much, but that was not really even an issue.  The place was perfect for us.

As far ask asking for a blessing/"permission", eh.  I think it's ridiculous also, and I don't think for one second that having a child of my own would change that.  If I did and the guy was good to her and made her happy, then their choice to marry has nothing to do with me.  You'll prove your respect for me by treating her good enough that she never wants to come back home.  I get what people are saying, they put their time in to raise her, etc., but that had nothing to do with you.  They chose to be parents and raise a child, completely independent of your existence.  The parents having chosen to raise a child doesn't (in my opinion) merit a requirement that a person ask for parental input on a decision that they, as two consenting adults, are going to enter into anyway.

THAT SAID - my opinion is on the expected tradition that "thou shalt ask the father".  If she has ANY sort of expectation of you as far as the "dad talk" goes, you have to determine if not doing so is going to upset her in ANY way.  Mrs. C. and I knew we would be getting married at some point, so I got my expectations out of the way long before we got engaged, by just outright asking if the dad talk was an expectation of hers.  She thought it was as asinine an idea as I did and that was that.  If she HAD expected me to do so, despite my not seeing the point, I'd have done it.  Not for him, but to lessen the amount of disappointment on her part.

And this whole 2 months' salary thing is a fucking scam.  Complete madness.  If I spent two months' salary on a ring, that would be that much less to put towards the ACTUAL wedding (and don't get me started on the absolutely stupid amount of money that people literally THROW AWAY for a few hours worth of their time on their wedding day), a honeymoon, a down payment on a home, furnishing expenses, or savings for an emergency.  Ridiculous.

But what's underlying your whole post - which I'm not at all disagreeing with - is that that's all your opinion, and, presumably, your wife's.   You have to read the situation.   What's "rational" and what's "emotionally enduring" are two different things.  If you're good with that, no one - not even me ;) - can say otherwise.  If she's NOT going to harbor a grudge over the sand-speck size diamond, then go for it.  If she's NOT going to always wonder why you didn't respect her enough to give her that day (I don't mean you Coz; I'm speaking generally; I did what you did for both my weddings), then go for it.  if the family is NOT going to wonder if you're a disrespectful deadbeat for not asking Dad, then go for it.

There's no right answer in any of this.  It's all about being honest with yourself, but more important, your partner being honest with you. 

Offline Stadler

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #46 on: April 03, 2017, 01:05:50 PM »
It really is amazing what emotionally irrational assholes people can become where weddings are involved.

WORD. 

Offline Chino

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #47 on: April 03, 2017, 01:06:06 PM »
Quality of the diamond matters.  ask about the grading and sneak around to find out if your gal likes raise or a lowered diamond.  Ask her family members or friends you can trust not to spill the beans.

Luckily, she has a Pintrest page titled "incase I ever say I do" that's nothing but wedding rings. I have a good template to go by. As for talking to her family members, they will be in the dark until the deed is done. Her entire family is a never ending circle of gossip. Her mother and sisters won't keep their mouths shut, and I don't plan on asking her dad for permission.
Heh, is there a story there that we might find entertaining?  :lol

*snip*

*snippy*[/b]

Of course, you know him, so you know if he is traditionally minded or not.

*snip*
"Permission" is just a word.  It's not like "withholding permission" will mean she can't get married.

But, kind of like Gary said, I have been the man to take responsibility for her, to provide for her, and to support her when she needs it (which, due to multiple reasons, has been substantial). Once she gets married, I won't completely stop doing all of those things, necessarily, but I will no longer be the primary responsible person - YOU will ("You" meaning the prospective husband).  Asking My permission is showing me the respect to let me know that I can rest assured that my daughter will be in good hands with you, since I will no longer be the #1 man in her life.

Again, it's not about the word "permission", it's about showing respect to your future father-in-law.

I hear you. In our situation, this seems irrelevant though. Maybe that's why I feel like it's more smoke and mirrors than it is about showing actual respect. The guy knows I have the utmost respect for him. It's evident every time I set foot in his house. She has been my primary responsibility, not his, for 2.5 years now. And I don't mean just living together. We share a house and property, already living like more of a married couple than a lot of married couples I know. She's in good hands. Her father told me as such after a wedding in the Finger Lakes last July. His exact words were "You're a great guy, Bri. I'm glad V found a good one". He hasn't been the number one man in her life in 2.5 years. I feel like me asking permission/for a blessing is really just saying "Hey, Ned. I'd like to keep doing exactly what I've been doing with your daughter for the last couple years. Not quite sure when we'll stop using birth control though. You alright with that?".

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #48 on: April 03, 2017, 01:07:53 PM »
He should ask you permission to be your father in law!
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Chino

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #49 on: April 03, 2017, 01:19:10 PM »
Once the planning of the day starts, basically everything is going to boil down to what Victoria, her mom, her sisters, and her aunts want. I will have little say, and the say I do have I'll keep bottled up inside so she can have the day she wants.

This is the kind of bullshit that makes me so very angry at the idea of "weddings".  Basically it's a day where everybody celebrates the woman and the man is a complete afterthought, despite being half of the couple.  The fact that you would, for one second, have to submit to what her mother, sisters, or aunts want for a day that is as much yours as it is hers, is asinine, with all due respect.  And it happens ALL THE TIME.  This is why when Mrs. C. and I got married, we said "We're going to the Caribbean and getting married on a beach, for anybody that can afford to join us, you're welcome to do so.  If you can't, sorry about your luck."  The only concession we made was choosing a slightly less expensive resort to have it at, so that anyone who DID decide to go would not have to spend AS much, but that was not really even an issue.  The place was perfect for us.
*snip*

Between you, me, and the internet, I don't have much of a desire to be involved in the planning. Though, a lot of that might stem from the fact that I'd have to work around all the women whispering in her ear the whole time. I'd actually love to give input, but I'd rather just preemptively bow out than have to argue and lose later. Ideally, in my perfect world, we'd go to a court house, sign some stuff, throw a ridiculous pig roast rager at no cost to our guests, and then take off for two weeks, but I guess that's not romantic enough  ::)

I basically gave Victoria a list of 5 things I want at the wedding and told her she could do whatever she wanted for the rest. How many of these will come to fruition is anyone's guess  :lol

1) Our dance will be to the BTTF version of Earth Angel
2) Self-serve eat when you want rather than the sit down meal
3) Waffle bar at desert
4) Live band (preferably with brass) over a DJ
5) I want my best men to dress in what they consider their best, rather than all dressing the same (this one mortified her).

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2017, 01:19:44 PM »
He may just love that you show him the ring once you get it.  A bonding moment Brian.  Sounds like you have a great relationship with him.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2017, 01:21:02 PM »
I hear you. In our situation, this seems irrelevant though. Maybe that's why I feel like it's more smoke and mirrors than it is about showing actual respect.
I get it, and again, I don't know the guy (or your girl) and you do.

But this is another thing that isn't about you or what you think.  Will your lady or her father be upset, even a little, if you don't do this?  That is the only thing that matters.

Safest thing is to ask her what she thinks about it.  But either way, asking her dad will at the very least give you more brownie points with the in-laws, and it will give the appearance that you are a man of class, integrity, and thoughtfulness.  There's no downside to it, only upside.

That's all I've got.  Congratulations, pal!

EDIT: WTF at that groomsmen request.  I don't blame her for being mortified.
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Offline Sir GuitarCozmo

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2017, 01:23:38 PM »
But what's underlying your whole post - which I'm not at all disagreeing with - is that that's all your opinion, and, presumably, your wife's.   You have to read the situation.   What's "rational" and what's "emotionally enduring" are two different things.  If you're good with that, no one - not even me ;) - can say otherwise.  If she's NOT going to harbor a grudge over the sand-speck size diamond, then go for it.  If she's NOT going to always wonder why you didn't respect her enough to give her that day (I don't mean you Coz; I'm speaking generally; I did what you did for both my weddings), then go for it.  if the family is NOT going to wonder if you're a disrespectful deadbeat for not asking Dad, then go for it.

There's no right answer in any of this.  It's all about being honest with yourself, but more important, your partner being honest with you. 

The bolded part is where everyone gets into trouble.  By assigning emotional value to the meaningless checking off of boxes.

Talked to dad - Check
Spent 2 months salary on a decoration rather than 5 mortgage payments - Check
Put another 2 months' salary (or more) on credit cards for decorations, cake, dinner, and an open bar for all my friends and family - Check

Going through impractical motions at someone else's insistence.  The ONLY person who you should "go through the motions" for (for lack of a better term) is your woman.  Meaning if you're going to go about doing things that you have no interest in, but will do anyway to make someone happy, then it should be her, not her mom, or dad, or sisters, or cat, or whatever.

I basically gave Victoria a list of 5 things I want at the wedding and told her she could do whatever she wanted for the rest. How many of these will come to fruition is anyone's guess  :lol

1) Our dance will be to the BTTF version of Earth Angel
2) Self-serve eat when you want rather than the sit down meal
3) Waffle bar at desert
4) Live band (preferably with brass) over a DJ
5) I want my best men to dress in what they consider their best, rather than all dressing the same (this one mortified her).

All five of them will.  Know why?

Because you're god-damned Chino, that's why.  Make it so.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2017, 01:27:45 PM »

1) Our dance will be to the BTTF version of Earth Angel
2) Self-serve eat when you want rather than the sit down meal
3) Waffle bar at desert
4) Live band (preferably with brass) over a DJ
5) I want my best men to dress in what they consider their best, rather than all dressing the same (this one mortified her).

Those are major decisions though, so good luck with that.

Meal service and music decisions are huge.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Chino

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2017, 01:33:16 PM »
I hear you. In our situation, this seems irrelevant though. Maybe that's why I feel like it's more smoke and mirrors than it is about showing actual respect.
I get it, and again, I don't know the guy (or your girl) and you do.

But this is another thing that isn't about you or what you think.  Will your lady or her father be upset, even a little, if you don't do this?  That is the only thing that matters.

Safest thing is to ask her what she thinks about it.  But either way, asking her dad will at the very least give you more brownie points with the in-laws, and it will give the appearance that you are a man of class, integrity, and thoughtfulness.  There's no downside to it, only upside.

That's all I've got.  Congratulations, pal!

EDIT: WTF at that groomsmen request.  I don't blame her for being mortified.

 :lol

The groomsmen (sorry, I called them bestmen in the prior post) has been a touchy subject. First of all, I have a very small group of friends. I have 8 people I regularly hang out with. I told her I wanted my oldest buddy as my best man and then two other guys as my groomsmen. The fact that I only wanted three people up there was very perplexing to her. On the flip side, she needs to have both her sisters, my sister apparently, her two best girlfriends, her best girlfriend's sister, and two of her cousins. So right off the bat we are 9v3 on the altar. Even if I invited all of my buds up there, it'd still be 9v7, though that is more manageable.

As for the groomsmen requests, that comes from my most recent experience as a groomsman. My buddy's now wife's bridesmaids were all wearing different color versions of the same dress. The groomsmen wore matching tuxes with different color ties to match the dresses. I thought the girls looked great all wearing a different color. I thought that that could apply to guys too. But more importantly, the cost is major contributing factor. If I do have to invite all my bros to be groomsmen, at least 3 of them will not be able to afford it. They don't make $10 a hour and are swimming in student debt. I'd feel really guilty about having to make them shell out $300+ for a tux rental, especially if I wasn't even going to have them up their initially. Victoria wants them in the wedding, I don't (again, I know I sound like an asshole). To me, the compromise is getting them on the altar without breaking their bank.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2017, 01:46:00 PM »
$300.00 for a tux rental?  Holy crap!

Did a quick search around here.  Most appear to be under $100.00.  Most expensive I found was $149.00, and screw that.

FYI, if they aren't uniform in some way, the pics will look like crap.  I know, I know, that's another tradition that you don't understand.

Find cheaper tuxes/suits, and spring for the cost of whatever friend can't afford it yourself.  Or rather, have your father-in-law do it, since traditionally that is who pays for the wedding.
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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #56 on: April 03, 2017, 01:50:34 PM »
I'd feel really guilty about having to make them shell out $300+ for a tux rental, especially if I wasn't even going to have them up their initially. Victoria wants them in the wedding, I don't (again, I know I sound like an asshole). To me, the compromise is getting them on the altar without breaking their bank.

Yep, that sucks.  If I had to be in someone's wedding, I'd at least jokingly ask if they were going to pay for my tux rental, but that's because anybody whose wedding I'd be in would be a close enough friend that I could bust their balls about it.  And I've seen weddings like you're talking about where there's literally a CROWD on stage, because everyone on the bride's side of the bridal party likely had some sort of expectation to be involved, so the guy has to invite nearly everyone he knows to get involved just to even it up.  I never understood that.  Have three people on each side (best main, MOH, and two groomsmen and brides maids), if that.  If everybody and their mother gets all huffy at not being included, then you say "Best man and maid of honor will be chosen by us.  Everyone else gets to fight amongst themselves as to who gets the remaining spots.  Get back to me by (insert date here) with the agreed upon decision."

God talking about this stuff just gets me fired up.  I need a drink.


have your father-in-law do it, since traditionally that is who pays for the wedding.

This is another thing I don't get.  For as much as I don't value having to submit to dad before getting engaged, I also don't think the parents should have any responsibility to pay for it.  You're adults, you have jobs, if you want to get married, great!  That's on your tab.  It's part of being a grownup.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #57 on: April 03, 2017, 01:54:44 PM »
As someone who's bought and sold an engagement ring before  :lol I am totally with you as it being not something to spend a lot of money on.  For one, it is not a good investment.  Yes, it has real life value, but it's not the same as buying gold or buying a house.  The purchase of the diamond alone, the difference in it's actual value and the price you pay (more than the real value for profit to the seller) will likely be more than any increase in value you'll see over your life (AKA, you are unlikely to be able to sell it for more money in the future... now of course we all know you'll never sell it, but the point is that it's not a good investment overall if one were to look at it that way).  Second, the money spent on it has likely, maybe not though (I don't know your money situation), better uses for your future as a couple/family.   Don't forget you'll want to also take out insurance on it if you were to spend a lot. 

Sadly it was a made up thing for our culture that stuck and a lot of women feel strongly about their ring.  My ex actually picked out her ring.  We just went to look and she found one she really liked but we were "just looking" she thought.  I bought it and didn't pop the question for a few months to let it simmer and be forgotten, which it was.  But it didn't take long for her to complain and question the idea of getting a bigger stone.  I paid 5k at the time and I was in a worse job than I am in now so that 5k was not as easy as it is today to pay.  When she asked about a bigger stone, I knew I had made the wrong decision.  Someone who values that is not really the type of person for me.  I've got to imagine that by now, your future fiance knows you well enough to know you don't like these traditions and that she wouldn't expect a huge rock so hopefully that won't happen to you.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #58 on: April 03, 2017, 01:55:54 PM »
$300.00 for a tux rental?  Holy crap!

Did a quick search around here.  Most appear to be under $100.00.  Most expensive I found was $149.00, and screw that.

FYI, if they aren't uniform in some way, the pics will look like crap.  I know, I know, that's another tradition that you don't understand.

Find cheaper tuxes/suits, and spring for the cost of whatever friend can't afford it yourself.  Or rather, have your father-in-law do it, since traditionally that is who pays for the wedding.

I would have killed for a $100 rental when my best bud got married last August. My shoes and vest alone were $100  :lol

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2017, 01:58:09 PM »
I just wanted to say that, as I read through your list, I was getting more and more afraid that #5 would have something to do with you entering from a balcony.
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Offline Chino

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2017, 01:59:28 PM »
As someone who's bought and sold an engagement ring before  :lol I am totally with you as it being not something to spend a lot of money on.  For one, it is not a good investment.  Yes, it has real life value, but it's not the same as buying gold or buying a house.  The purchase of the diamond alone, the difference in it's actual value and the price you pay (more than the real value for profit to the seller) will likely be more than any increase in value you'll see over your life (AKA, you are unlikely to be able to sell it for more money in the future... now of course we all know you'll never sell it, but the point is that it's not a good investment overall if one were to look at it that way).  Second, the money spent on it has likely, maybe not though (I don't know your money situation), better uses for your future as a couple/family.   Don't forget you'll want to also take out insurance on it if you were to spend a lot. 

Sadly it was a made up thing for our culture that stuck and a lot of women feel strongly about their ring.  My ex actually picked out her ring.  We just went to look and she found one she really liked but we were "just looking" she thought.  I bought it and didn't pop the question for a few months to let it simmer and be forgotten, which it was.  But it didn't take long for her to complain and question the idea of getting a bigger stone.  I paid 5k at the time and I was in a worse job than I am in now so that 5k was not as easy as it is today to pay.  When she asked about a bigger stone, I knew I had made the wrong decision.  Someone who values that is not really the type of person for me.  I've got to imagine that by now, your future fiance knows you well enough to know you don't like these traditions and that she wouldn't expect a huge rock so hopefully that won't happen to you.

Did you get the ring back?

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2017, 02:00:11 PM »
On the topic of "asking permission" from her father/parents, I'm 100% in the Hef/Bosk/Stadler camp (and also have a 16-year old daughter).  Their comments (along with Gary's) nailed it, so I have nothing further to offer other than this.  In a month, year, or decade, which is more likely to cause you/Victoria any regrets - asking (when you didn't believe in it); not asking (and risking all the comments that have been made)?  As Hef said, I really don't see any downside to asking - other than it bruising your pride of not doing something just out of 'tradition'.  And by the way, what's wrong with some tradition?  Do you pay for meals?  Hold doors open for women?

Is there any possibility dad might be offended if you "ask"?  Unlikely.
Is there any possibility he might be offended if you don't "ask"?  It's not for us to say, but as the dad's of daughters here have said, we would be.

IMO, there's only upside in "asking", and downside in not "asking".
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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2017, 02:00:53 PM »
Last Tux I rented was $180.  And I'm a big boy.  Don't pimp your boys out.  Pick something that looks good and reasonable.
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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2017, 02:01:46 PM »
I think you have to be firm about what you really want as a couple. Planning a wedding is a great test of how your own commitments will endure against external and societal forces. If you let other's expectations take precedence over your own around every corner, do you really think that's going to change down the road, when it comes to buying a house, and raising your kids? The diamond is a perfect example of this. If your future spouse doesn't care about the diamond, then buy a different gem she likes more, or just buy a diamond within reason. You should not let what she wants wear away at her (and your) confidence when tested against the expectations of people who are secondary.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2017, 02:03:52 PM »
On the topic of "asking permission" from her father/parents, I'm 100% in the Hef/Bosk/Stadler camp

Well, I'm just glad somebody finally at least acknowledged that I posted in the thread at all.  Next thing you know, Chino will be telling me I'm not even IN the wedding anymore.  Or worse, the cheap skate'll make me rent my own tux or something.  :rant:
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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2017, 02:05:31 PM »
I'm fairly certain that if any outside family or friends had expressed any sort of expectation that their thoughts or wishes be considered above mine at my wedding, I likely would've asked when they planned on taking over payment of some of my monthly bills.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2017, 02:05:59 PM »
have your father-in-law do it, since traditionally that is who pays for the wedding.

This is another thing I don't get.  For as much as I don't value having to submit to dad before getting engaged, I also don't think the parents should have any responsibility to pay for it.  You're adults, you have jobs, if you want to get married, great!  That's on your tab.  It's part of being a grownup.

As a future father-in-law (twice over if you count stepdaughters who don't even speak to their real dad) let me just remind you all that Coz is a very, very smart man, who has lived this world to the FULLEST.  We should share in his wisdom.  Bathe in it, really.  :)

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2017, 02:07:18 PM »
As far as the tux thing - buy suits. Seriously, keep an eye out for when places like Jos A Bank do their buy one suit, get two free or whatever deal. If you've got three guys, take them all in at once, they basically split the cost of one suit, and all get something nice that they actually can wear in the future.

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2017, 02:13:33 PM »
have your father-in-law do it, since traditionally that is who pays for the wedding.

This is another thing I don't get.  For as much as I don't value having to submit to dad before getting engaged, I also don't think the parents should have any responsibility to pay for it.  You're adults, you have jobs, if you want to get married, great!  That's on your tab.  It's part of being a grownup.

As a future father-in-law (twice over if you count stepdaughters who don't even speak to their real dad) let me just remind you all that Coz is a very, very smart man, who has lived this world to the FULLEST.  We should share in his wisdom.  Bathe in it, really.  :)

His woman is also the cat's meow.  Not all women are like Mrs. C.

Mrs.Jingle and I also did a getaway vacation - eerily similar story to Coz's.  We paid for the whole thing, top to bottom, so any input from my mother, grandparents, or any other person was met with a prompt "I appreciate your opinion".  And that's it.  We made 100% of the decisions.  Others only get a say if they are picking up the tab.

On the flip side... not everyone getting married is financially in the place to be able to pick up the whole tab.  The tradition of the bride's family paying for the wedding is indeed antiquated, not is not often financially viable.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: The ridiculous 'tradition' of buying a overpriced chunk of carbon
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2017, 02:16:59 PM »
Orbert's story about asking the father's "permission":


Fred had been in college for seven years and had switched majors so many times that he was nowhere near a degree.  Meanwhile, he was working at the pizza place with my sister.  They'd been dating for three or four years, when he proposed to her.

Fred thought it would be really cool to ask my dad for permission to marry my sister.  It was known that my dad's opinion of Fred wasn't great, but presumably my dad would be so impressed by this old-fashioned move that it would raise his opinion of Fred and he would grant persmission.

My dad considered the request, and (paraphrasing, since I wasn't there) said "Well, since you're asking, the answer is No.  My daughter could do a lot better."

They ended up eloping.