Author Topic: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors  (Read 10304 times)

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Offline aglenn01

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All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« on: March 24, 2017, 08:27:40 PM »
First off, I loved M. Portnoy; was one of the first things that made DT stand out to me years ago (I discovered DT in about 2001; six degrees blew me away). But when I listen to DT now, I hear absolutely no fall off. In fact, as much as I liked MP, MM absolutely destroys in in almost every recording. I was listening to the Breaking the 4th Wall today, and I'm thinking about how crazy the old material sounds with MM doing it. The Scenes stuff is great. I struggle to understand why people feel like MM isn't holding up his end??

Offline rumborak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2017, 09:10:19 PM »
Not really rocket science. MP had a very immediate, visceral style that directly connected with people. MM's playing is more deliberate, abstract. Some people really enjoy that, some people don't.
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Offline SystematicThought

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2017, 09:12:20 PM »
I just want a better drum sound. TA was a step in the right direction, but the cymbals get buried and the drums just don't sound natural. I'm hoping the next album takes the the next step. Regardless, I still like Mangini
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2017, 09:30:39 PM »
Many MM detractors are just people who can't accept MP is gone, which is sad, considering it happened more than 6 years ago. I agree with the OP, Mangini is a beast of a drummer and, tbh, I find his patterns much more interesting than anything MP has been doing in the past years. Mangini's drum lines inspire me to think of the drums in a different way, which I enjoy a lot  :hefdaddy
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2017, 09:33:40 PM »
I used to be a huge MM fan until Erwinrafael convinced me not to be. Not sure why that dude hates Mangini so much, but it rubbed off I guess.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2017, 09:38:57 PM »
:lol
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2017, 01:18:07 AM »
I used to be a huge MM fan until Erwinrafael convinced me not to be. Not sure why that dude hates Mangini so much, but it rubbed off I guess.

 :rollin

They are very different drummers. MP loves playing around with the snare. MM loves playing around with the bass drum making the snare like a metronome. MP loves opening and closing hi-hats to color his cymbal playing. MM loves to use cymbals of different tones to achieve the same effect. MP loves making airdrummable fills. MM loves following multiple instruments using his amazing limb independence, which is not airdrummable at all. MP excels in quiet moments but could have some problems with more extreme playing like blast beats. MM make extreme playing sound effortless but sometimes sound stiff in quiet moments.

The funny thing about this is that during the drummer auditions, a lot said that DT went safe choosing the drummer who is most like Portnoy. WRONG. :rollin

Online Adami

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #7 on: March 25, 2017, 01:43:57 AM »


The funny thing about this is that during the drummer auditions, a lot said that DT went safe choosing the drummer who is most like Portnoy. WRONG. :rollin

To be fair, at the time...that IS what they basically said. Even though obviously things went a different direction after.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #8 on: March 25, 2017, 02:08:54 AM »
Yeah, I guess for people like me who are familiar with the styles of both drummers, I took that statement as a bit of PR to sort of assure the fans. Little did the fans know that they were actually getting somebody quite different...

Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #9 on: March 25, 2017, 03:42:15 AM »
I don't recall anybody saying he was most like Portnoy, just that he was the safest option, which has proven to be true imo. I still would have loved to hear what DT + Minnemann would have been like. Aside from those two, the other options either weren't ever going to happen, or weren't a great fit for the band.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #10 on: March 25, 2017, 05:46:22 AM »
I don't understand how you struggle to understand that other people may have a different taste than yours and prefer Portnoy instead of Mangini.

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #11 on: March 25, 2017, 06:18:01 AM »
I don't understand that you don't understand that this is a topic that has been talked about for a long time ChuckSteak?
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Offline CDrice

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2017, 08:51:01 AM »
I don't understand. I don't feel that Mike deserves this. What did he do wrong? I just don't understand.

Offline rumborak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2017, 08:51:18 AM »
I don't recall anybody saying he was most like Portnoy, just that he was the safest option, which has proven to be true imo.

I think the statement that's being misconstrued here is that MM was seemingly the one most willing MP's parts as-is, I.e. down to the T. Everybody else in the audition had at least some twist to it.
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Offline BlobVanDam

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2017, 09:32:06 AM »
I don't recall anybody saying he was most like Portnoy, just that he was the safest option, which has proven to be true imo.

I think the statement that's being misconstrued here is that MM was seemingly the one most willing MP's parts as-is, I.e. down to the T. Everybody else in the audition had at least some twist to it.

That's definitely a big part of it, which I'm personally glad they considered a priority. Even as it is, there are some parts that deviate too much for me, and some of those other players had much more different approaches to the music.
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Yep. I think the only party in the MP/DT situation that hasn't moved on is DTF.

Offline Zook

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2017, 10:17:59 AM »
I've always said that Portnoy's drumming had a personality. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but his drummer, while extremely technical, is more by the numbers and in a way, keeping the beat.

I love double kick drumming, and find myself adding it to songs while tapping along to them, but Mangini overdid it on The Astonishing. I agree on the robotic nature of his playing, and while it isn't a deal breaker, it's definitely noticeable when compared to earlier songs with Portnoy.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2017, 10:42:55 AM »
I've always said that Portnoy's drumming had a personality. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but his drummer, while extremely technical, is more by the numbers and in a way, keeping the beat.

This is one of the criticisms I don't really get. Which other drummer complements multiple instruments at the same time like Mangini does? Which other drummer goes up and down scales in melodic runs? Shifts from lower to higher-toned rides and hi-hats depending on changes in the song keys? Uses the bass drum to establish the groove as much as Mangini does? Plays ghost notes on two hi-hats? Uses bursts of single-stroke speed in his cymbals to complement fast riffs? Plays two different snare rolls simultaneously to simulate a military marching band?

Plays blast beats in a swing-jazz section?

If by-the-numbers means following some sort of rule book followed by many drummers, I would like to know what rule book that is and who are the other drummers who use it. The reason he's actually not very air-drummable is because his playing is not by-the-numbers at all.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2017, 10:48:28 AM »
I don't understand how you struggle to understand that other people may have a different taste than yours and prefer Portnoy instead of Mangini.

I think that's perfectly fine, tastes and all. The sad thing for me, though, is how people still blatantly make that preference known in every Youtube post in the official Dream Theater channel, every Facebook post in the official DT FB account, and worst, in almost all posts Mangini makes in his Facebook account.

Offline Zook

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2017, 11:13:03 AM »
I've always said that Portnoy's drumming had a personality. Mangini is a phenomenal drummer, but his drummer, while extremely technical, is more by the numbers and in a way, keeping the beat.

This is one of the criticisms I don't really get. Which other drummer complements multiple instruments at the same time like Mangini does? Which other drummer goes up and down scales in melodic runs? Shifts from lower to higher-toned rides and hi-hats depending on changes in the song keys? Uses the bass drum to establish the groove as much as Mangini does? Plays ghost notes on two hi-hats? Uses bursts of single-stroke speed in his cymbals to complement fast riffs? Plays two different snare rolls simultaneously to simulate a military marching band?

Plays blast beats in a swing-jazz section?

If by-the-numbers means following some sort of rule book followed by many drummers, I would like to know what rule book that is and who are the other drummers who use it. The reason he's actually not very air-drummable is because his playing is not by-the-numbers at all.

His playing isn't as "fun" as Portnoy's. I understand that drumming is his passion, his life, but by making his parts as technical as they can possibly be, he's sucking all the fun out of it. I know he thinks the exact opposite, but that's just my opinion. Gavin Harrison is super technical, but he still manages to sound organic. Not everyone cares about all that stuff you listed. Clearly it doesn't add much to the songs for me. I like the albums with Mangini just fine (probably more than most fans), but his drumming sticks out like a sore thumb. And no, I don't think he should just copy Portnoy, but there is clearly an element missing. I think The Astonishing would have benefited more from an organic drummer.

I like Mangini. His performances aren't bad at all. I just like the way Portnoy sounded more.

Offline mikeyd23

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2017, 11:22:39 AM »
Yeah, tastes and opinions will vary, I love both drummers, but I do think the differences are noticeable, others have already outlined those differences better than I could.

Production isn't everything, but I still wonder if people's opinions of MM would be different if all the records he's played on had a drum sound the quality level of FII or SDOIT. To me, that stuff makes a difference in my impression of the player.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2017, 11:28:27 AM »
His playing isn't as "fun" as Portnoy's. I understand that drumming is his passion, his life, but by making his parts as technical as they can possibly be, he's sucking all the fun out of it. I know he thinks the exact opposite, but that's just my opinion. Gavin Harrison is super technical, but he still manages to sound organic. Not everyone cares about all that stuff you listed. Clearly it doesn't add much to the songs for me. I like the albums with Mangini just fine (probably more than most fans), but his drumming sticks out like a sore thumb. And no, I don't think he should just copy Portnoy, but there is clearly an element missing. I think The Astonishing would have benefited more from an organic drummer.

I like Mangini. His performances aren't bad at all. I just like the way Portnoy sounded more.

That I could imagine. I guess I was just thrown off by the "by-the-numbers" comment.

Offline rumborak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2017, 11:31:19 AM »
I feel this very much relies on the super-vague concept of "is it coming together". MM does a lot of really impressive things, and he spends a lot of effort on making sure it plays well with the rest of the band, so on paper it should be magnificent. But, there is a lot of music out there that supposedly does everything right, but it never comes together into something interesting.  Mind you, it's never bad what he plays for sure. But in 3 albums there's not been a single instance where I thought "damn that was some tasty drumming". With MP there was at least one instance per album.

Production isn't everything, but I still wonder if people's opinions of MM would be different if all the records he's played on had a drum sound the quality level of FII or SDOIT. To me, that stuff makes a difference in my impression of the player.

I have wondered the same. It's a shame MM has never done a playthrough video, I think seeing, and hearing, what he does might sway a lot of people.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2017, 11:40:26 AM »

Production isn't everything, but I still wonder if people's opinions of MM would be different if all the records he's played on had a drum sound the quality level of FII or SDOIT. To me, that stuff makes a difference in my impression of the player.

I have wondered the same. It's a shame MM has never done a playthrough video, I think seeing, and hearing, what he does might sway a lot of people.

I think I've seen a couple. There was one of The Enemy Inside a while back I think. That being said, if I was MM, I'd be doing the same thing MP did, filming all the tracking and releasing it. It really brings the parts alive.

Offline Scottjf8

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2017, 12:49:29 PM »
To me, portnoy was always getting the crowd going, standing up while drumming, etc. To me, Mangini is just behind that huge kit and JUST drums..He doesn't add much to the live shows.

Plus of course MP wrote some incredible songs.  ACoS, 12 steps etc.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2017, 01:13:59 PM »

Plus of course MP wrote the lyrics to some incredible songs.  ACoS, 12 steps etc.

There, that is more accurate.

His playing isn't as "fun" as Portnoy's. I understand that drumming is his passion, his life, but by making his parts as technical as they can possibly be, he's sucking all the fun out of it. I know he thinks the exact opposite, but that's just my opinion. Gavin Harrison is super technical, but he still manages to sound organic. Not everyone cares about all that stuff you listed. Clearly it doesn't add much to the songs for me. I like the albums with Mangini just fine (probably more than most fans), but his drumming sticks out like a sore thumb. And no, I don't think he should just copy Portnoy, but there is clearly an element missing. I think The Astonishing would have benefited more from an organic drummer.

I like Mangini. His performances aren't bad at all. I just like the way Portnoy sounded more.

I agree with this, for the most part.  Granted, I would much rather have Mangini in the band right now than Portnoy, since he doesn't bring all kinds of baggage, but his playing, while beastly, like you said isn't as fun as Portnoy's. I am sure if I would appreciate the subtleties of his playing a lot more if I were a drummer or a musician. 

Long story short, Mangini is a great drummer and a good fit for the band currently.  Works for me. :tup :tup

Offline ChuckSteak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2017, 02:24:01 PM »
this is a topic that has been talked about for a long time ChuckSteak?
That's precisely why I don't understand people still talking about it. I thought that after a couple of years they would just accept that some like Mangini and some like Portnoy and move on with their lives.

I think that's perfectly fine, tastes and all. The sad thing for me, though, is how people still blatantly make that preference known in every Youtube post in the official Dream Theater channel, every Facebook post in the official DT FB account, and worst, in almost all posts Mangini makes in his Facebook account.
I don't like seeing those kind of comments everywhere, but probably they will keep saying it. Unfortunately, nothing we can do about that.

Offline Siddhartha

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2017, 02:59:00 PM »
I really donīt like the last two albums, I donīt like that they play live to a click track, they donīt rotate set lists like they used to... all that happened since Mike left.

I donīt hate Mangini at all, but with Portnoy DT was a better band.

Offline bill1971

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2017, 07:27:08 PM »


I'm sure if Rush had a message board in 1974 people would complain about Peart.

"He's too serious when he plays, Rutsey was having more fun"
"He way over plays, doesn't fit the song"
"He moved them away from their good rock songs"
"His lyrics are so nerdy, it's embarrassing"
"No Rutsey...no Rush"

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2017, 07:33:50 PM »


I'm sure if Rush had a message board in 1974 people would complain about Peart.

"He's too serious when he plays, Rutsey was having more fun"
"He way over plays, doesn't fit the song"
"He moved them away from their good rock songs"
"His lyrics are so nerdy, it's embarrassing"
"No Rutsey...no Rush"

 :lol

No doubt.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2017, 09:26:28 PM »
 :lol. So true.


As others have said, I think the production on the drums have hurt MM.
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Offline aglenn01

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2017, 09:33:33 PM »
Love the RUSH comment, post Rutsey, etc.. maybe in a few years we'll get there with MM vs MP. My original post stirred up some good discussion, which was the intent. Thanks to Rumbo, obv anyone on this board in the last decade knows you are the man. My whole point, which I feel may have been missed by some folks, is that MM is a fanfuckintastic drummer who should never be dismissed as not delivering in today's DT. It's no longer about MM vs MP...those days are gone now. The fact that so many people feel like DT isn't the same just proves how important the drum is to the overall sound of the band. Again, i loved MP, one of the things that originally drew me into DT was the drumming from MP, but I cannot dismiss current DT just because MP is not in the band. MM is playing the shit out of MP parts, sometimes changing some things which makes it different to listen to, and his stuff on his records is outstanding. Not to get into a MM vs MP issue, but after seeing the raw MM playing of "Enemy Inside" on that "tiny" kit, I can say that I've yet to see a better rock/metal drummer (maybe Jarzombek ) in my lifetime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDTYWwqchhQ
« Last Edit: March 25, 2017, 10:28:42 PM by aglenn01 »

Offline gzarruk

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2017, 10:37:27 PM »
We need to consider thar Mangini came to the band inmediately after the only drummer for the band at the time, a founding member who had been in the band for 25 years and was integral to the production of the albums, quit, so MM didn't only have to take care of the drumming (which is already a quite difficult task), but also had to endure all the pressure to please fans all over the world who have a very high standard of what to expect from the Dream Theater drummer. Not only that, but he still has to deal with all the comparisons, bad comments, etc etc that people say on almost every post by the band, plus, all the bad comments about him and current DT on Portnoy's social media accounts, that MP usually gives likes and RT. That's not a light weight to carry.

Having said that, I think MM has done a GREAT job dealing with all of this. Just imagine if any other drummer got the gig, I'm not entirely sure he could've taken as much as Mangini has. This just shows how much dedication and hard work he has put into DT, and, regardless if you like him and his drumming or not, we all should respect that.
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline rumborak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2017, 11:00:03 PM »
You want an honest response?
It's been 7 years. 3 albums. That's way more than most drummers have to prove their worth. No matter how you slice it, MM has been disappointing.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2017, 11:09:18 PM »
 :facepalm:

I think you completely missed gzarruk's point.

Offline rumborak

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Re: All this time, still don't get the Mangini detractors
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2017, 11:22:14 PM »
Have I ? What I read into gzarruk's post is just another elaborate apologetic for why MM's playing is really awesome while it doesn't sound like it.
"I liked when Myung looked like a women's figure skating champion."