Author Topic: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?  (Read 5251 times)

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Offline MirrorMask

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How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« on: March 21, 2017, 01:47:20 PM »
I had an idea for this topic for some time, but this gave me the suggestion to open a thread about it:

It's funny, my earliest thought about DT - based on comments I'd read before actually hearing the music - was that DT is not a band for "normal" people like me, only for musicians or nerds with a high IQ :laugh:

So, question: how many of you like DT first and foremost for their musical ability, and how many are instead in "just" because they happen to like the songs and the style of the band regardless of the actual skills required to craft said songs?

I'm not a musician, I don't consider myself ignorant of music, but surely I am not able to grasp things a musician can. I took singing lessons for several years, and I don't even remember when I was briefly introduced to piano; I know which are the notes on a keyboard, and I have a good ear to recreate easy melodies and I can play Beethoven's Ode to Joy on a keyboard, and that's it. Discussions about drum fills and chord progressions on guitars are completely alien to me. I "know" and recognize that the guys in DT are immensely skilled, but what I don't know is if a song, a solo or a melody that I happen to like requires a godlike skill of the instrument, or it's actually very easy.

And point is, I "don't care". Not in a dismissive way, but in the end, knowing if a part is insanely difficult or not, has a little impact for me on the liking of the song. I make an example, in comparison, with a drum intro every metlhead knows: the Painkiller one. I love it, because it's so badass and pumps you up for the song. Is it very difficult and requires days and days of practice to learn it? kudos to Scott Travis, but that wouldn't make me appreciate the intro that much more. It's something very simple that anyone who mastered double bass could do in their sleep? I don't care, I still love the intro.

Same for Dream Theater songs. I happen to like the music and I dearly love James as a singer (so his voice is basically the "instrument" I pay attention to), that's why I'm a fan, and while I surely realize, recognize and appreciate the evident and immense musicianship of the other members, the difficulty and craziness of a musical section will never be the defining factor in my appreciation of a DT song.

Anyone else like me or I'm in the vast minority among DT fans?
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Offline cramx3

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2017, 02:09:49 PM »
I'd say their technical abilities blew me away initially (well still do).  I was intrigued by how awesome of a musician every one of them were, but that doesn't have staying power.  It's the songs that keep me coming back to DT.  To me, that separated DT from other technical musical geniuses, DT were able to display that within the confines of songs that made sense and were catchy. 

Offline TAC

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2017, 02:21:13 PM »
I'd say their technical abilities blew me away initially (well still do).  I was intrigued by how awesome of a musician every one of them were, but that doesn't have staying power.  It's the songs that keep me coming back to DT.  To me, that separated DT from other technical musical geniuses, DT were able to display that within the confines of songs that made sense and were catchy.

Perfect.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2017, 02:24:20 PM »
I am very much in the camp that prefers good songwriting. The virtuosity impresses me, but I have a huge problem when the band (or anyt band) over indulges. I'll give you an easy example -- Endless Sacrifice. That song could have done with a minute or minute and a half solo, splitting time between JP and JR. Instead, it's a five minute wankfest in the middle of a song that really had a powerful chorus.

Immediately turned me off.

It's not ALL the time, there are plenty of songs where I like the extended showing off. But if my ear says to me that it isn't enhancing the actual song, and instead enhances the technical component of the band at the expense of the song, it's a MAJOR turnoff.

Metropolis sits a fine line. I love it, but when I first heard it, my reaction was "why are they extending that solo section out so much, just get back into it..."

So I am IN because I like the songs. I am happy DT are virtuosos in regard to their playing ability, because it gives them an ability to craft even more interesting songs. But if they go overboard (again, we're all different, so I'm referring to my ears), it really gets on my nerves. For me, it is about the song, first and foremost. Long songs are awesome when done right. But when it becomes about showcasing talent instead of enhancing the mood of the song, it drives me batty.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2017, 02:28:03 PM »
I'd say their technical abilities blew me away initially (well still do).  I was intrigued by how awesome of a musician every one of them were, but that doesn't have staying power.  It's the songs that keep me coming back to DT.  To me, that separated DT from other technical musical geniuses, DT were able to display that within the confines of songs that made sense and were catchy. 
I agree with all of that.  But the thing is, because the songs are so technical, I cannot really separate out their technicality.  It is an integral part of the songs.  It isn't "technicality for technicality's sake."  But the complexity and technicality of a lot of DT songs is part and parcel to why they are such good songs.  So, in answer to the question in the threat title, I am going to say "yes."  Ultimately, it falls back to the songs.  But the technicality makes the songs what they are.
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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2017, 02:31:02 PM »
If technicality is required (which of course it is) to bring us the songs, then I'd say it's important to me.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2017, 02:58:07 PM »
Virtuosity means nothing to me without songwriting.

This is why I can't listen to Vai or Satch or SRV.

Sure they can shred like buggery - but their music bores me to death.

Offline Siddhartha

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2017, 03:16:18 PM »
Very very much. If they weren´t that proficient on their instruments thay wouldn´t be able to play such intrincate music, and to me that´s what sets apart DT from the rest of bands. To me thats their trademark.


Offline rumborak

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2017, 03:27:57 PM »
This is why I can't listen to Vai or Satch or SRV.

I could never understand how people equate Vai and Satch in that sense. Vai, I can absolutely see the criticism of technicality getting the better of him. Satch, I mean, one word: Chickenfoot.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 03:32:24 PM »
True.

I can't listen to a Vai solo without him just doing tricks and showing off.

Satch is more melodic I concede.

Offline rumborak

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2017, 03:41:30 PM »
Regarding the OP, my stance on it is very selfish: it has to be interesting to *me*. Meaning, what held my interest 10 years ago is unlikely to hold my interest these days. 15 years ago I was *all* about blazing unison sections and pure display of skill.  But, after listening to songs and bands doing that for 15 years, it doesn't hold my interest anymore, especially when the bands aren't changing their own approach over time. DT got very formulaic with their technical sections, to the point where you know a keyboard solo is mandatory because JP had just finished his. Less so in TA though, I hope that trend holds.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 07:45:03 PM »
Virtuosity means nothing to me without songwriting.

This is why I can't listen to Vai or Satch or SRV.

Sure they can shred like buggery - but their music bores me to death.

Vai, Satch and SRV are all shred, no songwriting? Do you just watch the vids and not listen to the songs? All of their songs are based on singable melodies.

For Satch, Always With You. Always With Me is a good example.

For Vai, if we talk about main albums (not the albums of extra song ideas), almost all songs are based on a beautiful melody. Listen to Whispering A Prayer, Velorum, Answers, and I Know You're Here.

Offline JediKnight1969

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2017, 07:47:00 AM »
I can understand the thing with Vai, but yet he wrote a brilliant song like "Tender surrender".

Satriani is a great melodic songwriter. Maybe not as creative as he used to be. Just listen to "The forgotten (part two)"

And SRV... A shredder? Are we talking about Stevie Ray Vaughan? One of the most intense and versatile blues players ever? Now I just wanna listen to "Ain't gone 'n' give up on love".
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2017, 10:39:55 AM »
Kind of a side bar here, but if memory serves, the main criticism of Dream Theater from this forum used to be that they were soloing too much. I'm not saying that every fan thought this way, or even that the majority did, but it felt like every thread eventually touched on the subject at some point or another. Since A Dramatic Turn of Events, I almost never hear people complain about this anymore. Say what you will about the overall quality of the band's music since then, but I think it's fair to say that they've really toned down the shreddy stuff.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2017, 10:47:43 AM »
Yup.  Great observation.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2017, 11:05:28 AM »
Kind of a side bar here, but if memory serves, the main criticism of Dream Theater from this forum used to be that they were soloing too much. I'm not saying that every fan thought this way, or even that the majority did, but it felt like every thread eventually touched on the subject at some point or another. Since A Dramatic Turn of Events, I almost never hear people complain about this anymore. Say what you will about the overall quality of the band's music since then, but I think it's fair to say that they've really toned down the shreddy stuff.

Good post, I agree, they definitely have.

Offline cramx3

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2017, 11:11:05 AM »
Yea they definitely have, but I wouldn't mind if some of that was brought back.  Doesn't need to be over the top, but more moments like the beginning of a Life Left Behind would be welcomed.

Offline bosk1

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2017, 11:14:48 AM »
Yea they definitely have, but I wouldn't mind if some of that was brought back.  Doesn't need to be over the top, but more moments like the beginning of a Life Left Behind would be welcomed.

But see, to me, when that sort of thing is used sparingly, like it that song or the "wanky" sections of LNF and Outcry on ADTOE, for example, it makes them stand out more in a positive light.  Using ADTOE, those are two pretty "over the top" sections.  But to me, the fact that the album isn't littered with those types of sections on a lot of songs really elevates those parts in those two songs intead of it being "more of the same."
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Offline cramx3

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2017, 11:19:13 AM »
Yea, definitely needs a balance and I think TA had a little less of that balance IMO and ADTOE had the right balance.  But that's just my opinion. 

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2017, 11:45:05 AM »
I saw a vid of SRV playing Texas Flood. It was finger chewingly tedious.

Even the rhythm section looked bored to death

I just cannot bear that type of blues.

Look at me soloing - over a 12 bar in 6/8 time at 60bpm whilst the band is just there to keep time.

I'm not saying all SRV is that but thats the worst kind scenario of blues bands.

Literally nothing new.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2017, 11:53:11 AM »
Sounds to me like the blues aren't your thing.
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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2017, 12:00:29 PM »
I guess the shorter song format of the last 2 albums doesn't lend itself to those long instrumental/solo sections.

Personally, I love those sort of sections and I have to admit the technical ability on show does tend to increase my enjoyment of a song - but only up to a point. If the majority of DTs songs were much 'simpler', then I wouldn't love the band nearly as much. But that doesn't mean going over the top is automatically going to make me love the song. Outcry and LNF for example - neither are in my top 3 tracks from ADTOE. And Enigma Machine seems like a pretty technical song, but I don't enjoy it much at all - it's my least favourite instrumental I think.

I'm no musician, so I can't appreciate the music on certain levels that others may do, but I do tend to enjoy the instrumental sections. Who knows why, but I guess it's a part of what makes me prefer the longer songs generally. Saying that though, I think they found something a bit extra and different with TA. Despite all the short songs, I really quite like the album - they managed to get so many memorable sections as well as some awesome melodies into the shorter songs.
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Offline mikeyd23

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2017, 12:07:24 PM »
Yea, definitely needs a balance and I think TA had a little less of that balance IMO and ADTOE had the right balance.  But that's just my opinion.

Right on. Obviously, they were going for something different with TA, focusing on the story more so than ever before so the wanking wasn't as present. I agree with you though, I think ADTOE is a great example of modern DT striking a healthy balance between song craft and wanking.

Offline bosk1

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2017, 12:21:57 PM »
I saw a vid of SRV playing Texas Flood. It was finger chewingly tedious.

Even the rhythm section looked bored to death

I just cannot bear that type of blues.

Look at me soloing - over a 12 bar in 6/8 time at 60bpm whilst the band is just there to keep time.

I'm not saying all SRV is that but thats the worst kind scenario of blues bands.

Literally nothing new.
I am right there with you.  I can appreciate that it is terrific playing.  But it does nothing for me at all.

And Enigma Machine seems like a pretty technical song, but I don't enjoy it much at all - it's my least favourite instrumental I think.

I can understand that.  And I think you are right about it being pretty technical.  But it is one of few that stands out as being such on DT12, so again, I think it underscores the point that they have been more restrained as a whole on the last three albums.  And to me, Enigma Machine is also a good example of a complex song that doesn't sound nearly as complex as it is. 
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2017, 12:28:37 PM »
Sounds to me like the blues aren't your thing.

Not when it's completely rigid and boring like that. Oh - blues scale over a i - iv - v ? How ingenious.

The good thing about it is - it's so formulaic - that if you turn up to a jam night and don't know any of the songs - you can all just play a 12 bar.

Offline MirrorMask

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2017, 12:56:45 PM »
Kind of a side bar here, but if memory serves, the main criticism of Dream Theater from this forum used to be that they were soloing too much. I'm not saying that every fan thought this way, or even that the majority did, but it felt like every thread eventually touched on the subject at some point or another. Since A Dramatic Turn of Events, I almost never hear people complain about this anymore. Say what you will about the overall quality of the band's music since then, but I think it's fair to say that they've really toned down the shreddy stuff.

I tend to agree. Since the Dramatic album, they've really toned down this aspect of their songs that I felt was starting to get prominent from Six Degrees up until the last two albums with Portnoy, where personally I feel that many songs were derailed by a 5 minutes solo section that had no real connection to the rest on the song (someone earlier mentioned Endless Sacrifice, why am I listening to a mellow and melanchonic song about long distance relationships and I have to sit through 5 minutes of LTE with a circus break in the middle?).

The crazy sections are still there, but they seem to fit better with the song; Outcry's solo section is as wanky as it gets, but I don't mind it at all and it doesn't take me out of the song.
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Offline noxon

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2017, 04:52:32 PM »
Considering my first song by Dream Theater was Another Day (which doesn't really stick out technically), and the album that made me a fan instead of a casual listener whenever friends / my father played them was Falling Into Infinity, I'd say that the songs are more important to me first. I was never a "music nerd" nor was I ever a musician. So the technical part of DT was actually something I had to get used to, and to learn to enjoy.

Offline WheyWaffles

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2017, 07:31:27 PM »
I wish DT had a less technically fluent keyboardist. The taste element so many haters complain about would become a much less valid point of attack.

Offline Herrick

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2017, 10:31:11 PM »
...in the end, knowing if a part is insanely difficult or not, has a little impact for me on the liking of the song.

I've always been impressed with virtuosity. Of course the music has to be good to my ears but if there's some impressive musicianship then that definitely has an impact on me.

Dream Theater's technical skills is a big part of what makes them Dream Theater. It's just what they do.
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Offline erwinrafael

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2017, 03:35:29 AM »
For me, Dream Theater is the band that shows that you can be highly technical while being musical. So it is a big aspect, although of course, musicality still has a greater weight. That's the reason why I do not like much the SC to BC&SL era. They were moving too much into the technical side without being musical. BC&SL, in particular, have a lot of songs that have long instrumentals that seems to be there just for the sake of having long instrumentals.

A lot of people seem to be saying that The Astonishing is not very technical. But to my ears, it is highly technical. Especially on the composition side. The intricacy of having recurring themes, of matching musical styles to characters, over a 2 and a half hour record needs a lot of technical skill.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2017, 09:59:37 AM »
The technical skill is extremely important.  That's what makes it a DT song and not a song by anyone else.
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Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2017, 10:27:29 AM »
So Vacant isn't a Dream Theater song.

Offline erwinrafael

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2017, 10:33:22 AM »
So Vacant isn't a Dream Theater song.

It is. But if you have a whole album of Vacant and Anna Lee, is that a Dream Theater album? :p

Offline Kotowboy

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2017, 11:27:49 AM »
It is. :)

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Re: How much the tech skill in DT is important for you?
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2017, 11:45:57 AM »
So Vacant isn't a Dream Theater song.

It is. But if you have a whole album of Vacant and Anna Lee, is that a Dream Theater album? :p

That's pretty much what we got on TA and some people will tell you it is still Dream Theater.   :rollin



On a technicality note, I'm fine with it until it turns into wankery.  Then, it's just a bunch of noise.
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