Mike Portnoy's "Prog Metal" supergroup: Sons of Apollo

[The Walrus]

For the sake of levity, imagine every poster doing this at the start of each post for the last few pages.

[Samsara]

For the sake of levity, imagine every poster doing this at the start of each post for the last few pages.

 

[Stadler]

Sorry you feel that way, As I Am. That's not sarcasm, just so you know. However, I'm still listening to the album. Hell, when the lineup and name were officially announced, I even posted over there, I said, "Day one purchase" - then Derek started saying some questionable things and Mike's ego and behavior turned me away.

But more importantly, and Dave talked about this, is Derek's burger flipping comment. That's my line in the sand. I don't own too much of his music -- I own Blood of the Snake and Falling Into Infinity, and the PSMS concert -- but I won't be giving any more of my money to him. Simple as that. I'll play the album on Spotify, and maybe after 10 spins he'll earn half a cent, and I won't see them live. But that's because of my principles. I do still hope the rest of the album is good, and I may even put a few on my 'starred' playlist on Spotify (I'm old school, still have the starred label!), but unfortunately it won't be on my shelves unless I find it secondhand -- I won't buy it directly from them or brand new.

But I'm not calling for a boycott of him or asking he never be allowed to play music. I'm voting with my wallet. Simple as.

Excellent post, Kattelox, I agree with all of it. Derek's comments started just as a little inappropriate, but then he crossed the line, and I just can't support someone who talks to people like that. I'll still listen to the album on Spotify, and I actually like Sings of the Time, but I'm not buying this album either. I just can't stand how childish Mike and Derek have been acting. And I actually feel bad for the other SOA guys, because they seem to be very nice guys and now their new, promising, band has just been outshined by all the crazy drama involving Mike and Derek.

How do you handle comedians you don't like?  Do you run around telling everyone how much you dislike Andrew Dice Clay, and how you're never buying another of his CDs again?  Or do you bother telling anyone who will listen how "childish" Don Rickles is for his brand of humor?  This is the guy that walked up to a table with Adam Sandler and Steve Buscemi, said hello to Adam, and turned to Steve and said "Ooosh, someone needs braces!" (A direct quote from Sandler, on the Stern show).   

I get it if it isn't how someone else chooses to live their life - honestly, I generally think Derek is entertaining, but that kind of humor isn't my thing - but I don't get how we can call names on people for something we don't like (and I have to be honest; I don't see how calling Mike and Derek "childish" is commenting on the music and not making it personal).   Derek retweeted the tweet that indicated it was largely tweaking the fans, not DT, and as I have said before, since DT hasn't said a word - not a peep - we don't at all know how they feel about it.  Why should we be up in arms if they aren't?   This is like telling someone "you should be offended!"   Let them decide.

[Stadler]

For the sake of levity, imagine every poster doing this at the start of each post for the last few pages.

That was my breakfast (including the cigarette).  My hair is better, though.

[The Walrus]

I know this was to gzarruk and not me but since he and I seem to be in full agreement:

How do you handle comedians you don't like?  Do you run around telling everyone how much you dislike Andrew Dice Clay, and how you're never buying another of his CDs again?  Or do you bother telling anyone who will listen how "childish" Don Rickles is for his brand of humor?  This is the guy that walked up to a table with Adam Sandler and Steve Buscemi, said hello to Adam, and turned to Steve and said "Ooosh, someone needs braces!" (A direct quote from Sandler, on the Stern show).

Stadler, you gotta stop with analogies. This isn't a good one. A comedian I don't like is not somebody I'm going to follow to begin with. Second, comedians make their living by being smartasses. Musicians don't, unless you're Ted Nugent (who doesn't make a living off it so much as marinates in it like a pig in shit), and like I've already said, I don't support him financially in any way. If I don't follow a comedian or don't consider myself a fan, I'm not going to discuss them. However, I *am* a huge fan of Mike Portnoy, and to a lesser degree Derek Sherinian. I like to talk about their music and what they're up to with fans. I don't go to them to hear smartass quips about their fans. Whatever point you're trying to make here, it's lost on me.

[Stadler]

I actually thing it was the most "prog" review ever. Totally over the top and cheesy with an overly lengthy pointless introduction.

HAHA.  That got a laugh out loud. 

[bosk1]

Stadler, you gotta stop with analogies. This isn't a good one.

This.  And as I have already had to say too many times, you need to stop with the long posts telling people how they should or shouldn't feel about Mike's/Derek's conduct.  You are repeating the same off-topic things over and over and derailing the discussion. 

As for calling their conduct "childish," that's a bit tricky.  I mean, arguably, it is bordering on getting personal at that point.  If (hypothetically), Kattelox posted something like, "Stadler's posts in this thread are just getting to the point of being childish," I'd probably step in and tell him to stop doing that.  But here's the distinction:  Mike and Derek's conduct is out there for mass consumption because they are actively putting it out there.  And a good many people have a problem with it.  Within relatively respectful boundaries, I'm going to allow people to comment on that.  I think it is fair to do so.  And I think it is fair game since, again, it is out there in the public.  Going further and commenting on Mike's character in general would NOT be cool.  But whether criticizing or praising, commenting no his specific words and actions is fair game.  So stop trying to tell people what they can and can't feel about it.  People are entitled to their opinions on either side and are entitled to post them, within reasonable limits.  If you don't like where I draw the line of what those "reasonable limits" are, I acknowledge that it is somewhat subjective, and I'm sorry you don't agree.  But that's the call I've made, and I feel it is the most fair and best accomplishes the goals of this forum.

[Stadler]

I'm not sorry at all for As I Am, since the guy has clearly shown over his stay here that he just can't stand any criticism towards MP. He reminds me of Stadler in a sense that when anything negative is said towards MP, they feel compelled to take a stance to the point of transforming what has really been said to have their way.
I already said it, but I hope that with the shutting down of MP.com, there won't be more people like that making it a hard time for us non-MP fanboys.

B.Lee

You misunderstand; I don't at all want to "have my way".  That's exactly the opposite of what I want.  I want everyone to have their own say and be done with it.  If you don't like Derek's humor, stay away, don't buy, think it's childish, whatever.  It's the incessant and constant "Mike's being a DICK! but we're fair and you're a fanboy if you don't see that!" nonsense that I'm on about.  This is not a totally anti-MP place, as Bosk rightly says, but it's not 50-50 either.   I can not particularly care for the technique, but not reject it out of hand and not be a "fanboy".   I've made no bones that I like Mike, and I felt (and still feel) that he's getting the short end of the stick as much as he's not, but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect or that anything he does is excusable.   We can have nuance and middle ground.   

I offer in the counter because it's there, and any opinion HAS to account for all the facts on the table, not just the ones that fit the opinion.   You can't look at things from only one side, and I am a little uncomfortable with trying to guess how people think (or thought).    I don't know what Mike's mindset was like with A7X, and so I don't think it at all appropriate to say that "he left DT thinking he had a bigger, better gig and it didn't pan out and now he's bitter".   That's recklessly speculative, in my book.    But as for the rest, I don't disagree with most of the comments, at heart.  I don't think Derek is terribly funny with the comments.  It's not at all my kind of humor in a public setting.   My friends and I are BRUTAL to each other, but it stays in the group and it's not for others to participate in.    Once I put the two and two together on the "Wiz" thing, I thought it was something that, if it really was a joke, you say directly to the person, not as a third party tweet for all to see.  (Remember, I'm the guy that thinks Twitter is going to be the end of society as we know it.) 

So please don't try to superimpose what you THINK I'm trying to do with what is actually happening.   

[RodrigoAltaf]

Back to SoA, the album comes out on October 20. I'm running a marathon on Oct 22, and while I'm usually very particular about the soundtrack I listen to while running, and usually go for albums that I know from start to finish, I'm thinking of making an exception. I'll probably listen to the full album at the start of the race, and leave the stuff I know better for the second half of it. I think the four albums will be:
Psychotic Symphony
Power Windows
Images and Words
The New Mythology Suite.

That should get me to the finish line in just under four hours.

[Stadler]

Stadler, you gotta stop with analogies. This isn't a good one.

This.  And as I have already had to say too many times, you need to stop with the long posts telling people how they should or shouldn't feel about Mike's/Derek's conduct.  You are repeating the same off-topic things over and over and derailing the discussion. 

As for calling their conduct "childish," that's a bit tricky.  I mean, arguably, it is bordering on getting personal at that point.  If (hypothetically), Kattelox posted something like, "Stadler's posts in this thread are just getting to the point of being childish," I'd probably step in and tell him to stop doing that.  But here's the distinction:  Mike and Derek's conduct is out there for mass consumption because they are actively putting it out there.  And a good many people have a problem with it.  Within relatively respectful boundaries, I'm going to allow people to comment on that.  I think it is fair to do so.  And I think it is fair game since, again, it is out there in the public.  Going further and commenting on Mike's character in general would NOT be cool.  But whether criticizing or praising, commenting no his specific words and actions is fair game.  So stop trying to tell people what they can and can't feel about it.  People are entitled to their opinions on either side and are entitled to post them, within reasonable limits.  If you don't like where I draw the line of what those "reasonable limits" are, I acknowledge that it is somewhat subjective, and I'm sorry you don't agree.  But that's the call I've made, and I feel it is the most fair and best accomplishes the goals of this forum.

I asked a question.   I've said now four times that I am NOT trying to tell anyone how to think or to act or to feel.  I really am not.   BUT, I feel like if you are interested in debate, it's not unfair to point out that Derek DID indicate he was joking.   So did Mike.   I'm not at all telling people how to think, but I think it's fair to ask how the information that contradicts what they are saying fits into what they DO think.

As for your lines, I have no problem with them, and I've said that before.  I get the distinction you're making and don't disagree with it.   I think what gets lost in my position is that I ALSO believe that if Mike or Derek put it out there, they should accept the consequences of that.   If people don't like it, they can't blame the people.  I get that.  I'm a "tend your own garden" kind of guy.   But it works on both sides.   I was responding to the idea that was presented in  gzarruk's post that "I just can't support someone who talks to people like that."   It is my opinion that it is confusing to say "I don't like how that guy is talking about people" then turning around and calling them names.   I am NOT saying he can't, or shouldn't, just asking how it gets reconciled.  If we don't like the comedian example (which was just the most obvious, and since Derek indicated that he was joking, I thought it appropriate), we can use other musicians if we want.  Is it fair to ask if anyone has boycotted Sammy Hagar's records for all the shit he's talked about Dave?  Or better yet, boycotted Eminem?   https://flavorwire.com/200333/the-30-harshest-musician-on-musician-insults-in-history  (I post that to inject some funny; some of those are hilarious, and hopefully you will all note that probably 27 of the 30 are some unknown, club musician talking about someone that plays arenas on the daily.  ).

[bosk1]

Back to SoA, the album comes out on October 20. I'm running a marathon on Oct 22, and while I'm usually very particular about the soundtrack I listen to while running, and usually go for albums that I know from start to finish, I'm thinking of making an exception. I'll probably listen to the full album at the start of the race, and leave the stuff I know better for the second half of it. I think the four albums will be:
Psychotic Symphony
Power Windows
Images and Words
The New Mythology Suite.

That should get me to the finish line in just under four hours.

Yeah, for such a long race, having one new album in the mix should work nicely by giving you something new to shake things up, while not having you bogged down the entire time with something unfamiliar.  I might put it second if it were me, but sounds like a good plan either way.

Stadler, you gotta stop with analogies. This isn't a good one.

This.  And as I have already had to say too many times, you need to stop with the long posts telling people how they should or shouldn't feel about Mike's/Derek's conduct.  You are repeating the same off-topic things over and over and derailing the discussion. 

As for calling their conduct "childish," that's a bit tricky.  I mean, arguably, it is bordering on getting personal at that point.  If (hypothetically), Kattelox posted something like, "Stadler's posts in this thread are just getting to the point of being childish," I'd probably step in and tell him to stop doing that.  But here's the distinction:  Mike and Derek's conduct is out there for mass consumption because they are actively putting it out there.  And a good many people have a problem with it.  Within relatively respectful boundaries, I'm going to allow people to comment on that.  I think it is fair to do so.  And I think it is fair game since, again, it is out there in the public.  Going further and commenting on Mike's character in general would NOT be cool.  But whether criticizing or praising, commenting no his specific words and actions is fair game.  So stop trying to tell people what they can and can't feel about it.  People are entitled to their opinions on either side and are entitled to post them, within reasonable limits.  If you don't like where I draw the line of what those "reasonable limits" are, I acknowledge that it is somewhat subjective, and I'm sorry you don't agree.  But that's the call I've made, and I feel it is the most fair and best accomplishes the goals of this forum.

I asked a question.   I've said now four times that I am NOT trying to tell anyone how to think or to act or to feel.  I really am not.   BUT, I feel like if you are interested in debate, it's not unfair to point out that Derek DID indicate he was joking.   So did Mike.   I'm not at all telling people how to think, but I think it's fair to ask how the information that contradicts what they are saying fits into what they DO think.

As for your lines, I have no problem with them, and I've said that before.  I was responding to the idea that was presented in  gzarruk's post that "I just can't support someone who talks to people like that."   It is my opinion that it is confusing to say "I don't like how that guy is talking about people" then turning around and calling them names.   I am NOT saying he can't, or shouldn't, just asking how it gets reconciled.  If we don't like the comedian example (which was just the most obvious, and since Derek indicated that he was joking, I thought it appropriate), we can use other musicians if we want.  Is it fair to ask if anyone has boycotted Sammy Hagar's records for all the shit he's talked about Dave?  Or better yet, boycotted Eminem?   https://flavorwire.com/200333/the-30-harshest-musician-on-musician-insults-in-history  (I post that to inject some funny; some of those are hilarious, and hopefully you will all note that probably 27 of the 30 are some unknown, club musician talking about someone that plays arenas on the daily.  ).

Yes, you've pointed it out.  And that was fine.  The first time.  You don't need to KEEP pointing it out and shouting down everyone who posts that they don't like something Mike or Derek have done.  It's getting old, and so is having to constantly jump in to try to keep the discussion on track every time you derail it.

[The Walrus]

It is my opinion that it is confusing to say "I don't like how that guy is talking about people" then turning around and calling them names.

I think bosk touched on that earlier when he was talking about the net consequences of fans dissing an artist vs. the artist dissing fans.

Is it fair to ask if anyone has boycotted Sammy Hagar's records for all the shit he's talked about Dave?  Or better yet, boycotted Eminem?

It's not only fair to ask, it's fair to boycott if a given individual doesn't want to financially support that artist. There's a hundred valid reasons for not wanting to support Eminem, but I do, because the benefits to supporting him and listening to his music outweigh the cons for me personally.

[Awaken]

You misunderstand; I don't at all want to "have my way".  That's exactly the opposite of what I want.  I want everyone to have their own say and be done with it.  If you don't like Derek's humor, stay away.  It's the incessant and constant "Mike's being a DICK! but we're fair and you're a fanboy if you don't see that!" nonsense that I'm on about.  This is not a totally anti-MP place, as Bosk rightly says, but it's not 50-50 either.   

I offer in the counter because it's there, and any opinion HAS to account for all the facts on the table, not just the ones that fit the opinion.   You can't look at things from only one side, and I am a little uncomfortable with trying to guess how people think (or thought).    I don't know what Mike's mindset was like with A7X, and so I don't think it at all appropriate to say that "he left DT thinking he had a bigger, better gig and it didn't pan out and now he's bitter".   That's recklessly speculative, in my book.    But as for the rest, I don't disagree with most of the comments, at heart.  I don't think Derek is terribly funny with the comments.  It's not at all my kind of humor in a public setting.   My friends and I are BRUTAL to each other, but it stays in the group and it's not for others to participate in.    Once I put the two and two together on the "Wiz" thing, I thought it was something that, if it really was a joke, you say directly to the person, not as a third party tweet for all to see.  (Remember, I'm the guy that thinks Twitter is going to be the end of society as we know it.) 

So please don't try to superimpose what you THINK I'm trying to do with what is actually happening.   
[/quote]

Why would we be shooting for 50-50?  What if 75% truly don't enjoy what he's currently up to, do their opinions not matter?  Conversely, was it 50-50 at mp.com for DT related topics (when they were even allowed to be discussed)?  I'd argue that it's far closer to that midpoint here than over there.  The Astonishing was not overly well received here, but it was openly bashed and mocked at mp.com (and allowed).  All anyone should really care about is whether the guy is being treated fairly.  To that end, I think it's a good thing that we have members like you in this community.  That does not mean the art he creates is above criticism, though. 

As far as the A7X comments - while no one I've seen has offered definitive proof, the whole situation just didn't look good for Mike.  The timeline of events does lend credence to certain theories so I'm not sure it's 'recklessly speculative'.  Certainly not fact, and shouldn't be conveyed as such, either.

Keep on keepin' on

[Lethean]

I asked a question.   I've said now four times that I am NOT trying to tell anyone how to think or to act or to feel.  I really am not.   BUT, I feel like if you are interested in debate, it's not unfair to point out that Derek DID indicate he was joking.   So did Mike.   I'm not at all telling people how to think, but I think it's fair to ask how the information that contradicts what they are saying fits into what they DO think.

Where did Derek indicate that he was joking? I saw his retweet of someone saying "this is going to piss off DTF" but nothing that actually says he's joking. He may well be, but to be honest I don't care. Just because you add "just joking" to something, it doesn't necessarily mean that what you said isn't still kinda nasty.  I really don't care if he's doing it because he hates DT, he's cool with or indifferent to DT but wants to piss off their fans, or if it's just because he thinks this is good marketing. It's all equally distasteful to me.

[Bertielee]

I'm not sorry at all for As I Am, since the guy has clearly shown over his stay here that he just can't stand any criticism towards MP. He reminds me of Stadler in a sense that when anything negative is said towards MP, they feel compelled to take a stance to the point of transforming what has really been said to have their way.
I already said it, but I hope that with the shutting down of MP.com, there won't be more people like that making it a hard time for us non-MP fanboys.

B.Lee

You misunderstand; I don't at all want to "have my way".  That's exactly the opposite of what I want.  I want everyone to have their own say and be done with it.  If you don't like Derek's humor, stay away, don't buy, think it's childish, whatever.  It's the incessant and constant "Mike's being a DICK! but we're fair and you're a fanboy if you don't see that!" nonsense that I'm on about.  This is not a totally anti-MP place, as Bosk rightly says, but it's not 50-50 either.   I can not particularly care for the technique, but not reject it out of hand and not be a "fanboy".   I've made no bones that I like Mike, and I felt (and still feel) that he's getting the short end of the stick as much as he's not, but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect or that anything he does is excusable.   We can have nuance and middle ground.   

I offer in the counter because it's there, and any opinion HAS to account for all the facts on the table, not just the ones that fit the opinion.   You can't look at things from only one side, and I am a little uncomfortable with trying to guess how people think (or thought).    I don't know what Mike's mindset was like with A7X, and so I don't think it at all appropriate to say that "he left DT thinking he had a bigger, better gig and it didn't pan out and now he's bitter".   That's recklessly speculative, in my book.    But as for the rest, I don't disagree with most of the comments, at heart.  I don't think Derek is terribly funny with the comments.  It's not at all my kind of humor in a public setting.   My friends and I are BRUTAL to each other, but it stays in the group and it's not for others to participate in.    Once I put the two and two together on the "Wiz" thing, I thought it was something that, if it really was a joke, you say directly to the person, not as a third party tweet for all to see.  (Remember, I'm the guy that thinks Twitter is going to be the end of society as we know it.) 

So please don't try to superimpose what you THINK I'm trying to do with what is actually happening.   

Sorry to misunderstand you, Stadler, but, frankly, you won't have me seeing you any other way. So, let's leave it at that. And I mean no disrespect to the man as I don't know you as a person, just as a forumer.

B.Lee

[Stadler]

Why would we be shooting for 50-50?  What if 75% truly don't enjoy what he's currently up to, do their opinions not matter?  Conversely, was it 50-50 at mp.com for DT related topics (when they were even allowed to be discussed)?  I'd argue that it's far closer to that midpoint here than over there.  The Astonishing was not overly well received here, but it was openly bashed and mocked at mp.com (and allowed).  All anyone should really care about is whether the guy is being treated fairly.  To that end, I think it's a good thing that we have members like you in this community.  That does not mean the art he creates is above criticism, though. 

Because if you're trying to be fair, and if you're not voting, the opinions of the 25% are no less valid (all things being equal) than the 75%.   Numbers don't indicate "right" or "wrong".   It wasn't 50-50 at mp.com either.   Not sure how that matters; the same standards ought to apply (given that mp.com is run by a band member, this place is not), so any criticisms would likely apply there as well.   I'm not at all sticking up for that place in terms of administration (some of you might be surprised at my real feelings about that place; having said that, I loved the community and there are a number of good solid people that were there, most of whom are now, thankfully, here).   I don't mean "50-50" in terms of "50% are pro-Mike and 50% are against".  I meant "50-50" in terms of accepting where the line between the 75% and the 25% are.  As we have seen in politics, when the number shift, so tend the lines to shift.     

I don't at all think the art is above criticism.  Just the opposite; I think that is where I would put my primary focus (no, not telling others they have to do the same).    On the MP.com site I myself said the following:

I really really liked [Coming Home], but my initial concerns are starting to fester:  I'm not sure JSS is the right man for the job.   I get that art is all about choices, and I want to hear SONS OF APOLLO'S choices, not mine, but for me, the magic of good PROG metal is not a harsh scream, but soaring melodic vocals, and that ain't here.  (Think of "Hallowed Be Thy Name", where Dickinson holds that note over the intro, and it rises and gets cleaner).
   
 For example:  2:40-ish:  cool prog metal break coming out of a sick solo by Ron Thal.  Following that, I'm waiting for a soaring, melodic vocal over the top of everything, and we get... a generic metal scream.  Four minute song and there were, I think, three of the same.  I don't know.  It just seems so epic and so over-the-top except for the vocals, which, while certainly technically good, just seem so... one-note.
   
 [I'm] going to give this a shot for sure, as the instrumentation is everything I'm looking for.  If I'm being honest with myself, though, I just wish there was more Steve Perry and less Ronnie Dio.

I was extremely critical of AMob (honestly, if you told me that was a new band ala Spinal Tap, I would believe you 100%). 

As far as the A7X comments - while no one I've seen has offered definitive proof, the whole situation just didn't look good for Mike.  The timeline of events does lend credence to certain theories so I'm not sure it's 'recklessly speculative'.  Certainly not fact, and shouldn't be conveyed as such, either.

Keep on keepin' on

It didn't look good for Mike, and certainly if you account for what the guys in A7X said.  It's just my experience that nothing is black or white.  Maybe it's my bias - trying to be fair here - but in my 50 years, virtually nothing (except maybe my love for my daughter) has been so cut and dry, so one-sided, that there haven't been competing forces, emotions, and realities to deal with.   I would suspect it is similar for a guy with multiple bands, a demanding job that requires both constant creativity (the strategic) AND attention to detail (the tactical), and to maintain balance with a family (and all that entails).  If that's wrong, well, I'll own it.   But it's informing where I'm coming from.

[The Walrus]

Here's a counterpoint to Stadler, from Mike's Twitter. Someone tweeted why doesn't SoA release a 10 minute prog song as their single (after all, they're the kings of prog, prog metal missile heading straight at you, taking over the world, arenas, a frenzy in the rock and metal world, etc.), and this was Mike's response:

"Really??
GnR was a multi platinum band with complete control over radio...
SOA hasn't even released its 1st album....Get real!"

... then his followers come back with, "Fuck this troll! Don't feed the trolls! Bell end! Don't listen to him! People don't understand how the music business works!" It's not a bad question either, if they're kings of prog, release a prog single. But the band has this attitude of, "We can do anything, we're taking over, this is gonna BLOW YOUR MIND!" so it's puzzling in the age of the Internet that Mike thinks radio control means a lick of spit and that people should "get real." Point being, Mike encourages/doesn't mind attacks or criticism - as long as they aren't directed at him. And that is how you can tell someone is insecure.

EDIT: Darn, I was going to delete this for the better good but people responded. So here ya go.

[Adami]

Maybe I'm just too tired, but why was GnR mentioned?

[Zook]

But... How are they a troll?

[Bertielee]

I'm not sorry at all for As I Am, since the guy has clearly shown over his stay here that he just can't stand any criticism towards MP. He reminds me of Stadler in a sense that when anything negative is said towards MP, they feel compelled to take a stance to the point of transforming what has really been said to have their way.
I already said it, but I hope that with the shutting down of MP.com, there won't be more people like that making it a hard time for us non-MP fanboys.

B.Lee

You misunderstand; I don't at all want to "have my way".  That's exactly the opposite of what I want.  I want everyone to have their own say and be done with it.  If you don't like Derek's humor, stay away, don't buy, think it's childish, whatever.  It's the incessant and constant "Mike's being a DICK! but we're fair and you're a fanboy if you don't see that!" nonsense that I'm on about.  This is not a totally anti-MP place, as Bosk rightly says, but it's not 50-50 either.   I can not particularly care for the technique, but not reject it out of hand and not be a "fanboy".   I've made no bones that I like Mike, and I felt (and still feel) that he's getting the short end of the stick as much as he's not, but that doesn't mean I think he's perfect or that anything he does is excusable.   We can have nuance and middle ground.   

I offer in the counter because it's there, and any opinion HAS to account for all the facts on the table, not just the ones that fit the opinion.   You can't look at things from only one side, and I am a little uncomfortable with trying to guess how people think (or thought).    I don't know what Mike's mindset was like with A7X, and so I don't think it at all appropriate to say that "he left DT thinking he had a bigger, better gig and it didn't pan out and now he's bitter".   That's recklessly speculative, in my book.    But as for the rest, I don't disagree with most of the comments, at heart.  I don't think Derek is terribly funny with the comments.  It's not at all my kind of humor in a public setting.   My friends and I are BRUTAL to each other, but it stays in the group and it's not for others to participate in.    Once I put the two and two together on the "Wiz" thing, I thought it was something that, if it really was a joke, you say directly to the person, not as a third party tweet for all to see.  (Remember, I'm the guy that thinks Twitter is going to be the end of society as we know it.) 

So please don't try to superimpose what you THINK I'm trying to do with what is actually happening.   

Sorry to misunderstand you, Stadler, but, frankly, you won't have me seeing you any other way. So, let's leave it at that. And I mean no disrespect to the man as I don't know you as a person, just as a forumer.

But enough derailing the thread : while I don't like the attitude of MP (and this was true even before the split), I like the drummer that he is, or rather, I liked the drummer that he was. Never enough, for example, is often a song that is frowned upon for being a Muse rip-off. I don't care : MP's drumming on the 2nd verse of the song is fantastic! The break before the solo in constant Motion is also fantastic drum-wise (and yet, 8vm and SC are one of their worst albums for me) and I could go on like that. Unfortunately, I found nothing of the sort in the 2 songs released by SoA : you know, those famous "wow" moments! And this, among other things, is what will keep me from even listening to the album. The songs are not bad per se, once again, they are simply not my cup of tea.

B.Lee

[cramx3]

I dont think MP was totally wrong in what he was saying there, the music business doesn't seem to like releasing 10 minute singles, even if its been done before.  Although, as usual, why the hell does he even bother responding to things like that.  I don't think he needs to explain himself here and if he is going to, he can do it in a much better fashion.

[The Walrus]

Maybe I'm just too tired, but why was GnR mentioned?

I should have clarified that. They used the example of November Rain being released as a single/video. My bad.

[Bertielee]

I dont think MP was totally wrong in what he was saying there, the music business doesn't seem to like releasing 10 minute singles, even if its been done before.  Although, as usual, why the hell does he even bother responding to things like that.  I don't think he needs to explain himself here and if he is going to, he can do it in a much better fashion.

Totally agree : he has nothing to explain, but this stems from his tendency to want to control everything.

B.Lee

[Stadler]

Here's a counterpoint to Stadler, from Mike's Twitter. Someone tweeted why doesn't SoA release a 10 minute prog song as their single (after all, they're the kings of prog, prog metal missile heading straight at you, taking over the world, arenas, a frenzy in the rock and metal world, etc.), and this was Mike's response:

"Really??
GnR was a multi platinum band with complete control over radio...
SOA hasn't even released its 1st album....Get real!"

... then his followers come back with, "Fuck this troll! Don't feed the trolls! Bell end! Don't listen to him! People don't understand how the music business works!" It's not a bad question either, if they're kings of prog, release a prog single. But the band has this attitude of, "We can do anything, we're taking over, this is gonna BLOW YOUR MIND!" so it's puzzling in the age of the Internet that Mike thinks radio control means a lick of spit and that people should "get real." Point being, Mike encourages/doesn't mind attacks or criticism - as long as they aren't directed at him. And that is how you can tell someone is insecure.

EDIT: Darn, I was going to delete this for the better good but people responded. So here ya go.

If I understand right:

Someone asked why they don't release the ten minute song as a single.
Mike countered that GnR - who released November Rain (9:00 or thereabouts) and Estranged (9:30 or thereabouts) - were already in control by virtue of their level of stardom and could make that call.  SoA are not at that level yet.
The comment section went off the rails.

If anyone cares, I think the question was fair, I think the response was fair, and I think the commenters are up their own ass.  Why does every conversation have to be about the participant and not the topic?  It's a fair question to ask why a song was or was not a single, and Mike's answer - whether you agree with it or not - is at least grounded in reality.   Remember Billy Joel's "The Entertainer" ("It was a beautiful song, but it ran too long; If you're gonna have a hit, you gotta make it fit; So they cut it down to 3:05") or Marillion's "Three Minute Boy"? 

I think the rest of it, pro OR con for Mike, is noise.  Not that their opinions are worthless but it's not furthering the discussion to engage in that level of conversation.

[Stadler]

I dont think MP was totally wrong in what he was saying there, the music business doesn't seem to like releasing 10 minute singles, even if its been done before.  Although, as usual, why the hell does he even bother responding to things like that.  I don't think he needs to explain himself here and if he is going to, he can do it in a much better fashion.

Totally agree : he has nothing to explain, but this stems from his tendency to want to control everything.

B.Lee

Or be understood.  They're not the same thing ( I can tell you that from personal experience). 

[ganpondorodf]

He can't just make the same point without a 'Really??' and a 'Get real!', can he?

[bill1971]

Here's a counterpoint to Stadler, from Mike's Twitter. Someone tweeted why doesn't SoA release a 10 minute prog song as their single (after all, they're the kings of prog, prog metal missile heading straight at you, taking over the world, arenas, a frenzy in the rock and metal world, etc.), and this was Mike's response:

"Really??
GnR was a multi platinum band with complete control over radio...
SOA hasn't even released its 1st album....Get real!"

... then his followers come back with, "Fuck this troll! Don't feed the trolls! Bell end! Don't listen to him! People don't understand how the music business works!" It's not a bad question either, if they're kings of prog, release a prog single. But the band has this attitude of, "We can do anything, we're taking over, this is gonna BLOW YOUR MIND!" so it's puzzling in the age of the Internet that Mike thinks radio control means a lick of spit and that people should "get real." Point being, Mike encourages/doesn't mind attacks or criticism - as long as they aren't directed at him. And that is how you can tell someone is insecure.

EDIT: Darn, I was going to delete this for the better good but people responded. So here ya go.

If I understand right:

Someone asked why they don't release the ten minute song as a single.
Mike countered that GnR - who released November Rain (9:00 or thereabouts) and Estranged (9:30 or thereabouts) - were already in control by virtue of their level of stardom and could make that call.  SoA are not at that level yet.
The comment section went off the rails.

If anyone cares, I think the question was fair, I think the response was fair, and I think the commenters are up their own ass.  Why does every conversation have to be about the participant and not the topic?  It's a fair question to ask why a song was or was not a single, and Mike's answer - whether you agree with it or not - is at least grounded in reality.   Remember Billy Joel's "The Entertainer" ("It was a beautiful song, but it ran too long; If you're gonna have a hit, you gotta make it fit; So they cut it down to 3:05") or Marillion's "Three Minute Boy"? 

I think the rest of it, pro OR con for Mike, is noise.  Not that their opinions are worthless but it's not furthering the discussion to engage in that level of conversation.

I think MP's content was fine but he has such an aggressive high school response to everything.

"Really??
GnR was a multi platinum band with complete control over radio...
SOA hasn't even released its 1st album....Get real!"

I can see pretty much anyone else if they even felt the need to respond would be more like. "I don't think we are quite that popular. " Anyhow, I am not in MP's shoes but it seems like he should probably just stay away from the social media or at the very least don't respond.

[RodrigoAltaf]

Bosk, I need to start slowly on the marathon, and that's why listening to an album I hardly know would be a good fit. If I put on Power Windows, I might start too strong (Big Money and Marathon always get me pumped!!!!) and burn out halfway through the race.

[w_marano]

He can't just make the same point without a 'Really??' and a 'Get real!', can he?

Agree.

[bill1971]

I dont think MP was totally wrong in what he was saying there, the music business doesn't seem to like releasing 10 minute singles, even if its been done before.  Although, as usual, why the hell does he even bother responding to things like that.  I don't think he needs to explain himself here and if he is going to, he can do it in a much better fashion.

Totally agree : he has nothing to explain, but this stems from his tendency to want to control everything.

B.Lee

Or be understood.  They're not the same thing ( I can tell you that from personal experience).

Being understood is in a way a control issue. One wont be happy until that person understands you. You are in a way trying to control their thoughts. Some people wont, so it's wise to just move on.

[emtee]

The strong middle eastern influence comment makes me think of Home. I wonder if it borrows any ideas.

Soon.

[Stadler]

Bosk, I need to start slowly on the marathon, and that's why listening to an album I hardly know would be a good fit. If I put on Power Windows, I might start too strong (Big Money and Marathon always get me pumped!!!!) and burn out halfway through the race.

I'm not a marathoner myself, but you can do a lot in a lifetime if you don't burn out too fast.  You can make the most of the distance; first you need endurance, first you've got to last.

[XeRocks81]

I dont think MP was totally wrong in what he was saying there, the music business doesn't seem to like releasing 10 minute singles, even if its been done before.  Although, as usual, why the hell does he even bother responding to things like that.  I don't think he needs to explain himself here and if he is going to, he can do it in a much better fashion.

Totally agree : he has nothing to explain, but this stems from his tendency to want to control everything.

B.Lee

Or be understood.  They're not the same thing ( I can tell you that from personal experience).

Being understood is in a way a control issue. One wont be happy until that person understands you. You are in a way trying to control their thoughts. Some people wont, so it's wise to just move on.

Words to live by if I ever heard them

[Stadler]

I dont think MP was totally wrong in what he was saying there, the music business doesn't seem to like releasing 10 minute singles, even if its been done before.  Although, as usual, why the hell does he even bother responding to things like that.  I don't think he needs to explain himself here and if he is going to, he can do it in a much better fashion.

Totally agree : he has nothing to explain, but this stems from his tendency to want to control everything.

B.Lee

Or be understood.  They're not the same thing ( I can tell you that from personal experience).

Being understood is in a way a control issue. One wont be happy until that person understands you. You are in a way trying to control their thoughts. Some people wont, so it's wise to just move on.

It's likely different for different people, and I don't at all think that because I am one way that everyone is, but I can only speak for myself: it is not a control issue.   It is more a selfish thing than anything else.   I want to be understood because I want the feedback.  The feedback is useless if the information going in is faulty.  I don't mean "feedback" as in "you're right, I agree with you!" but rather, feedback of additional ideas.   I get bored with "I agree with you".  I get a thrill with "I don't agree with you, but I understand you and respect your position.  Have you considered this, though?".  It's why most of my friends do not share my political beliefs, why I loved working for GE more than any other company (they waste almost no time on platitudes), and why I post more in threads where I am not in the majority. 

[Bertie_Wooster]

If you don't buy an artists music because you don't like their behavior you are only punishing yourself.  If it is music that you personally like but you don't support  then you can't complain when more of that type isn't made.    Having said that SOA doesn't seem to be my cup of tea and I doubt will not buy it.