2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[TAC]

  

I’m Tom’s bitch.
Flowers for Brady. 

[mikeyd23]

Good Lord, that's fantastic 

[Stadler]

That is pretty funny.

[pg1067]

That is pretty funny.

I can only read that with Dan Patrick's Bill Belichick imitation voice.  LOL!

[bosk1]

That is pretty funny.

I can only read that with Dan Patrick's Bill Belichick imitation voice.  LOL!

Your post was funnier during that split second when I thought you said Danica Patrick.

[AngelBack]

That is pretty funny.

I can only read that with Dan Patrick's Bill Belichick imitation voice.  LOL!

Your post was funnier during that split second when I thought you said Danica Patrick.

And Danica is now dating Aaron Rodgers.....we are about one link from a conspiracy here

[bosk1]

[KevShmev]

I think a better indicator of the lack of officiating bias against the Pats is the roughing the passer calls they get (i.e. while Brady is on the field). 

You'd think that would be where the emotions come in (protect the GOAT!!).    In stats since 2009, Brady is 23 out of 43 QBs in the table (some  are now retired, like Romo and Manning) in roughing calls per game.   Not even in the TOP HALF.   Contrast that with the guy that whines on the weekly about all the times he's been "roughed" and there's no call (Camshaft Newton) who is eighth, and earns a "roughing the passer" penalty for his team at almost double the rate per game that Brady does. 

https://www.nflpenalties.com/roughing-the-passer-by-qb.php

That is a non-story.  Brady is a master of not taking direct hits, so it is hard to get roughing penalties on him when you are lucky to get a glancing blow on him. 

On the flip side, Cam is terrible at avoiding contact, whether it being in the pocket or running the ball.

It is not luck why Brady is still pretty healthy for a 40-year old.  And it is not a coincidence that the true pocket QBs are the guys almost never get hurt (Brady, Eli, Rivers, Brees, Ryan), while the guys who love to run around tend to get hurt or dinged more (Rodgers, Cam, Wentz, Mariotta, Luck).

As I said before, if you're convinced that the refs are all on the take, you're going to look for every possible example to support your claim. Examples to the contrary go unnoticed. People see what they want to see, and plenty want an excuse to diminish what the Patriots do.

Has anyone said the refs are "on the take"?  I certainly never have. Because I don't think they are.

I think officials in just about any major sport have the tendency to make calls in favor of proven juggernauts, almost like "this team has been so good for so long and teams this good don't make many mistakes," so they get more of the benefit of the doubt on close calls than other teams do.  Same thing happened with the Bulls in the 90's, the Lakers in the 80's, Duke for the last 3 decades and the Red Wings in the late 90's/eary 00's.

When it comes to pass interference or defensive holding calls, they clearly get those calls slanted heavily in their favor (see links below), but I think a lot of that is coaching.  NE WR's are clearly coached up like crazy to do things to draw PI when there isn't PI there, and shame on the officials for falling for it far too often.  That is why I give Belichick mad props.  He knows the mentality of officials and coaches his team accordingly.

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/defensive-holding?year=2017

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/defensive-pass-interference?year=2017

[DT2003]

I'm rooting for the Pats.  Id rather see greatness continue to be great than see the Eagles win (I'm a Giants fan).  Also, as a Giants fan, I would never set foot in that Eagles stadium for a game wearing Giants colors.  The Eagles fans are well known for being really bad towards visiting fans.  There is nothing enjoyable about going to an away game in that environment.  There's also nothing to be proud about acting that way.

And as I told Neon back when she was posting if she wanted to wear her Eagles jersey to a cowboys game here she'd probably have a great time. She'd take a good-natured ribbing, but that's the whole point. If anybody took it too far 80k Texans would be decidedly on her side. That's just courtesy.

Yea totally, that's how we treat our visiting fans at PSU football games.  No doubt there's always some asshole who goes too far, but in the spirit of the game and fun, some good jokes and friendly boos are part of being the opposing fan.  Punches, getting your hat pissed on, verbal abuse... that's too much and that's what Philly is known for.

City of Brotherly Love my ass.

This is why as a NY fan I would never go to a sporting event in Philly. It shouldn’t be like that and it’s sad it is. 

Years back my brother and I and a couple of friends went to a different baseball stadium each year when the Mets were playing them. We went to Boston, Baltimore, and Cleveland as well as several Mets/Yankees games at Yankees stadium and each time we had a great time joking with the fans around us all in good fun. We actually had a run in with some Red Sox fans on our way out of one of the games, but other than that the fans there were great, although very intense, but it’s still in good fun. The one  place we always wanted to go though but didn’t as we did not feel safe was Philly. I’ve just heard too many stories from people who have had bad experiences there.

[Adami]

That is pretty funny.

Is it though?

[TAC]

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/defensive-holding?year=2017

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/defensive-pass-interference?year=2017

So the Pats were tied for 5th with 14 Defensive PI Calls For and an NFL high with 355 yards gained from them.
This also includes 2 more games than more than 2/3s of the league.

They were also 7th in Pass Attempts by Team, but Tom Brady had the more Attempts than any other QB.

Seems like a marginal argument to me.


Using the same website you linked, they also lead the lead in Offensive PI calls against.




I mean, c'mon. The Patriots throw the ball basically more than any other team. Seems more than reasonable that they would be involved in PI calls for AND against, which the data bears out.

[KevShmev]

The numbers are interesting across the board, when you look at them all.

What is more interesting is the Belichick/Brady dynamic this week.  Regarding Brady's thumb issue, he has talked since how difficult it was to get ready for the game because of the injury, while Belichick several times has dismissed it as being no big deal. I think the rift is real and I will be surprised if they are still together next year. I am sure it grinds Belichick's gears than Brady always gets way more credit than him.  After Sunday, most of the chatter was about how Brady had made his 8th Super Bowl, with hardly any mention of it also being Belichick's 8th Super Bowl as a head coach.

[kaos2900]

Meh, I don't know. Belichik has never really been one to focus on shit like a hand injury. He purposely keeps things close to not tip his hat to his opponents. I do think that if there is a rift it's between Kraft and Belichik over the trade of Garopollo. If Kraft forced that to happen he basically screwed the teams future. Belichik is not going to coach somewhere else and I think him and Brady bow out at the same time.

[King Postwhore]

There is definitely issues between the 2.  We it affect the play on the field and coaching?  No.  When BB got rid of TB's buddy Guerrero from working on the Pat's site except for Tom there is issues.

[Stadler]

I think a better indicator of the lack of officiating bias against the Pats is the roughing the passer calls they get (i.e. while Brady is on the field). 

You'd think that would be where the emotions come in (protect the GOAT!!).    In stats since 2009, Brady is 23 out of 43 QBs in the table (some  are now retired, like Romo and Manning) in roughing calls per game.   Not even in the TOP HALF.   Contrast that with the guy that whines on the weekly about all the times he's been "roughed" and there's no call (Camshaft Newton) who is eighth, and earns a "roughing the passer" penalty for his team at almost double the rate per game that Brady does. 

https://www.nflpenalties.com/roughing-the-passer-by-qb.php

That is a non-story.  Brady is a master of not taking direct hits, so it is hard to get roughing penalties on him when you are lucky to get a glancing blow on him. 

On the flip side, Cam is terrible at avoiding contact, whether it being in the pocket or running the ball.

It is not luck why Brady is still pretty healthy for a 40-year old.  And it is not a coincidence that the true pocket QBs are the guys almost never get hurt (Brady, Eli, Rivers, Brees, Ryan), while the guys who love to run around tend to get hurt or dinged more (Rodgers, Cam, Wentz, Mariotta, Luck).

As I said before, if you're convinced that the refs are all on the take, you're going to look for every possible example to support your claim. Examples to the contrary go unnoticed. People see what they want to see, and plenty want an excuse to diminish what the Patriots do.

Has anyone said the refs are "on the take"?  I certainly never have. Because I don't think they are.

I think officials in just about any major sport have the tendency to make calls in favor of proven juggernauts, almost like "this team has been so good for so long and teams this good don't make many mistakes," so they get more of the benefit of the doubt on close calls than other teams do.  Same thing happened with the Bulls in the 90's, the Lakers in the 80's, Duke for the last 3 decades and the Red Wings in the late 90's/eary 00's.

When it comes to pass interference or defensive holding calls, they clearly get those calls slanted heavily in their favor (see links below), but I think a lot of that is coaching.  NE WR's are clearly coached up like crazy to do things to draw PI when there isn't PI there, and shame on the officials for falling for it far too often.  That is why I give Belichick mad props.  He knows the mentality of officials and coaches his team accordingly.

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/defensive-holding?year=2017

https://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/defensive-pass-interference?year=2017

But while I largely agree with your analysis, I disagree with the conclusion.   That the team is coached well and through their high level of performance has "earned" a benefit of the doubt isn't really the same thing as what's being discussed above, that is, that the refs have a "Patriots bias".    There's a difference:   one is just the refs looking one way more than another; the other is a conscious effort by a team that coaches the four corners of the game and leaves nothing to chance.    Put another way:   Bills and Ravens and Colts and [insert team] fans  can't bitch about the latter, because it's in the power of their team to do the same and they don't.  It's like getting mad at Brees for putting up 350 yards on your defense.  Or LaVeon Bell for putting up 150 yards rushing.   Don't bitch, find a way to stop them.   

[Stadler]

That is pretty funny.

Is it though?

You disagree with me completely?   

[Stadler]

There is definitely issues between the 2.  We it affect the play on the field and coaching?  No.  When BB got rid of TB's buddy Guerrero from working on the Pat's site except for Tom there is issues.

I think there might be something - there's smoke, there's fire - but I also think that these guys have been able to keep eyes on the prize for so long that it's going to be - dare I say - a nothingburger.   

We haven't mentioned it, but in my opinion, the biggest issue is likely Tom's reluctance to give up the ghost.   Belichick has always been a "make the change before you have to" kind of coach.  He's never really driven a player into the ground, and traded up before that happened.   I wonder if there's not a "anyone is fair game... except Brady" mentality on the team?   Tom's still playing well so it's not a real issue, but it's going to come to a head very soon.  Belichick is a "practice how you play" kind of coach, and while there are players in the league that basically "don't practice", Brady isn't and can't - because of the high number of timing routes they run - be one of them. 

[bosk1]

Sure that'll become an issue.  And there's where I believe the rumors about a rift between Kraft and Belichick.  It isn't necessarily something that can't be managed, at least in the short term.  But the Garoppalo trade highlighted the difference in philosophies.  Belichick was looking to the future, and was likely wanted Jimmy G to stay.  That isn't to say that he would have benched or traded Brady next season.  But it was pretty clear that he was preparing for that day.  Kraft, on the other hand, seems to have wanted Brady "protected."  He is looking to the now.  Different philosophy. 

I tend to think Brady and Belichick can continue to work through the difference from their perspectives, at least for whatever time Brady has left.  Belichick and Kraft is a whole different dynamic, and I'm not sure that can continue.  But what do I know?

[Nick]

Sure that'll become an issue.  And there's where I believe the rumors about a rift between Kraft and Belichick.  It isn't necessarily something that can't be managed, at least in the short term.  But the Garoppalo trade highlighted the difference in philosophies.  Belichick was looking to the future, and was likely wanted Jimmy G to stay.  That isn't to say that he would have benched or traded Brady next season.  But it was pretty clear that he was preparing for that day.  Kraft, on the other hand, seems to have wanted Brady "protected."  He is looking to the now.  Different philosophy. 

I tend to think Brady and Belichick can continue to work through the difference from their perspectives, at least for whatever time Brady has left.  Belichick and Kraft is a whole different dynamic, and I'm not sure that can continue.  But what do I know?

Funny thing about all that, if true, is that it's usually the GMs job to think long term and the coaches job to take what he has and find a way to win with it now.

[El Barto]

The one thing I know for sure is that trying to get into the head of Belichick is a fruitless effort, and even if it weren't I suspect it'd be a very spookly place that none of us really want to hang out.

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if he opted to retire after a SB win. The BKB dynamics might or might not factor into it. Now would simply be a fine time to bow out.

[King Postwhore]

Belichick is the coach and the GM Nick.


This situation only happened once before with Green Bay but you saw the decline in Farve's play before they moved on.  Brady has not lost anything so this is truly unique.  The thorn was why only a second round pick.  From what was out there, GM's weren't sold(I don't understand that at all) on Jimmy G.  The only thing from a Pats fan perspective is the durability factor of Jimmy G. Brady played through issues, Jimmy didn't. That Texan's game last year Jimmy was supposed to play but backed out the last second.

This leads to Kev, who talked about how Brady seems to avoid a lot of hits, knows how to fall and does no run a lot out of the pocket leading to injuries like Newton, Jimmy G, Big Ben & Rogers.

[bosk1]

That said, it wouldn't surprise me if he opted to retire after a SB win. The BKB dynamics might or might not factor into it. Now would simply be a fine time to bow out.

I have been thinking the same thing.  But part of me feels like he is just not ready to be done with football.  He may very well decide that he feels done with the politics of his particular organization.  But he may not feel done with football at all.  And where does that leave him?  I'm not sure.

[cramx3]

There really hasn't been a decline in his play, I don't see a reason to retire even with a win.  They will be the favorites to win again next year.

[Stadler]

Belichick is the coach and the GM Nick.


This situation only happened once before with Green Bay but you saw the decline in Farve's play before they moved on.  Brady has not lost anything so this is truly unique.  The thorn was why only a second round pick.  From what was out there, GM's weren't sold(I don't understand that at all) on Jimmy G.  The only thing from a Pats fan perspective is the durability factor of Jimmy G. Brady played through issues, Jimmy didn't. That Texan's game last year Jimmy was supposed to play but backed out the last second.

This leads to Kev, who talked about how Brady seems to avoid a lot of hits, knows how to fall and does no run a lot out of the pocket leading to injuries like Newton, Jimmy G, Big Ben & Rogers.

I agree with this, almost completely, but it sort of is an argument against Belichick being cheesed about Brady and his part in the success.  Belichick hasn't given one indication, in 43 years in the NFL, that he gives a flying rat's ass about the perception of the fans or the media.   He has, on occasion, let slip an awareness of the respect and admiration of his peers.    Not willing to give Jimmy G. a flyer is certainly indicative of at least SOME acknowledgement that Bill B. is the real force behind the Pats success, in that the other GMs don't think he's enough to turn around a sinking ship.   

[Nick]

Belichick is the coach and the GM Nick.

I had a complete herp derp moment on that one.

[TAC]

Belichick is the coach and the GM Nick.


This situation only happened once before with Green Bay but you saw the decline in Farve's play before they moved on.  Brady has not lost anything so this is truly unique.  The thorn was why only a second round pick.  From what was out there, GM's weren't sold(I don't understand that at all) on Jimmy G.  The only thing from a Pats fan perspective is the durability factor of Jimmy G. Brady played through issues, Jimmy didn't. That Texan's game last year Jimmy was supposed to play but backed out the last second.

This leads to Kev, who talked about how Brady seems to avoid a lot of hits, knows how to fall and does no run a lot out of the pocket leading to injuries like Newton, Jimmy G, Big Ben & Rogers.

I agree with this, almost completely, but it sort of is an argument against Belichick being cheesed about Brady and his part in the success.  Belichick hasn't given one indication, in 43 years in the NFL, that he gives a flying rat's ass about the perception of the fans or the media.   He has, on occasion, let slip an awareness of the respect and admiration of his peers.    Not willing to give Jimmy G. a flyer is certainly indicative of at least SOME acknowledgement that Bill B. is the real force behind the Pats success, in that the other GMs don't think he's enough to turn around a sinking ship.

He does care though. Its the whole reason we got the Wickersham article in the first place.

[King Postwhore]

Belichick is the coach and the GM Nick.


This situation only happened once before with Green Bay but you saw the decline in Farve's play before they moved on.  Brady has not lost anything so this is truly unique.  The thorn was why only a second round pick.  From what was out there, GM's weren't sold(I don't understand that at all) on Jimmy G.  The only thing from a Pats fan perspective is the durability factor of Jimmy G. Brady played through issues, Jimmy didn't. That Texan's game last year Jimmy was supposed to play but backed out the last second.

This leads to Kev, who talked about how Brady seems to avoid a lot of hits, knows how to fall and does no run a lot out of the pocket leading to injuries like Newton, Jimmy G, Big Ben & Rogers.

I agree with this, almost completely, but it sort of is an argument against Belichick being cheesed about Brady and his part in the success.  Belichick hasn't given one indication, in 43 years in the NFL, that he gives a flying rat's ass about the perception of the fans or the media.   He has, on occasion, let slip an awareness of the respect and admiration of his peers.    Not willing to give Jimmy G. a flyer is certainly indicative of at least SOME acknowledgement that Bill B. is the real force behind the Pats success, in that the other GMs don't think he's enough to turn around a sinking ship.

There has been indications.  For me Brady was very open after the game about the injury. Seem they are not quite on the same page of late.

[Stadler]

Maybe.  I have no inside baseball information, so you (King and  TAC) could well be right.   We'll see when the post-career autobiographies come out! 

Reporter:  "Bill, now that you've retired, what do you have to say about Tom Brady?"
Bill: "Today is Wednesday."

[Adami]

That is pretty funny.

Is it though?

You disagree with me completely?   

Not if you think I do.

[Stadler]

 

[King Postwhore]

When a player retires BB gushes over them.  He just doesn't even with the G.O.A.T.  The injury comment is a good example after the game.

[El Barto]

I think after 18 years Bill probably has a pretty good idea how to relate to Brady. If he doesn't fawn all over him there's probably a reason, and I suspect 12 gets that. Moreover, for the most part, Bill seems far more complimentary of his opponents than he does of his own team. That's just part of his style. Remember, he learned a great deal from Parcells, who was a notorious dick to a lot of people he was highly fond of.

[Stadler]

I think after 18 years Bill probably has a pretty good idea how to relate to Brady. If he doesn't fawn all over him there's probably a reason, and I suspect 12 gets that. Moreover, for the most part, Bill seems far more complimentary of his opponents than he does of his own team. That's just part of his style. Remember, he learned a great deal from Parcells, who was a notorious dick to a lot of people he was highly fond of.

Phil Simms. 

[King Postwhore]

Oh no doubt. That's not the reason for the rift.  But you can tell by both in interviews(and we see a lot here) that there is an underlying current.  Even the writers that are pro Pats are saying that this. 

They still can work together fine. It's just some friction.  The coach that had a plan thwarted and a player who now is planning on life after football that still is playing at an elite level at an age no one plays like that.

[El Barto]

In the end it comes down to whether or not they can keep their egos in check. I don't think either of them have much of a problem in that regard. The problem comes when one of them decides they can do just as well without the other, and I think they both understand just how flawed that premise is.