2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[King Postwhore]

 

Well, I am a couch potato these days.....

[El Barto]

And so it is decreed...

This is what I always think of when you bitch about the refs. For the life of me I don't know why you watch football. It makes no sense, really.

[KevShmev]

I have mentioned it here before, and talked about it with some friends and relatives, and we all pretty much agree that fantasy football is the main reason most of us still watch. If not for fantasy football, I wouldn't watch a lot.  The product itself just isn't that good anymore, between the constant replays killing the flow of games, the 844 commercials a game, the bad officiating, the style of play having changed, etc. 

This year's Super Bowl is the first one since the early 90s that I will not go out of my way to watch. 

[TAC]

Thinking the refs are in the Pats' corner is the definition of Fantasy Football.

[PowerSlave]

I tried playing fantasy football for a couple of years. I didn't get much out of it, but I think it's cool for people that enjoy it. I simply love the real game in, and of itself.

[TheCountOfNYC]

The last Super Bowl I didn’t watch was Super Bowl XXXIX. I also won’t watch this year’s game. As a proud New York sports fan, I can’t watch a Boston vs Philadelphia championship game. When the team I prefer is the frickin’ Eagles, well that’s just not ok.

[SoundscapeMN]

pretty much 41-0 2.0.

https://lubbockonline.com/stories/011501/nfl_011501026.shtml#.WmVLZa6nHIV

https://twitter.com/mlindstrom/status/955262882752671744

"So basically the #Vikings are Lucy and the fans are Charlie Brown"

[Dream Team]

Regarding officiating: you do remember that the NFL is officially marketed as “entertainment” not “sports competition”?

[jingle.boy]

The worst thing (commercially) for the NFL would've been a Jags/Vikings SB.

@ Nick... I don't have a horse in the race either, but there have been more than a few eyebrow crinkling moments around calls (or non-calls) that favour the Patriots.

[DT2003]

I tried playing fantasy football for a couple of years. I didn't get much out of it, but I think it's cool for people that enjoy it. I simply love the real game in, and of itself.

I love the game, but for me fantasy football enhances it even more. I play in a different type of league though where you pick different players each week and can only use them once for the season, but it definitely makes it more interesting for me.

[jingle.boy]

IMO, Fantasy Football is partially contributing to the 'killing' of the league.  It's definitely impacting the ratings - all people care about is the Fantasy highlights; FF fans care more about their FANTASY team and points than the REALITY of the game (and ergo, the entirety of the sport).  The league has thus (in some regards) catered to the Fantasy fan. 

I think the league needs to make some adaptations ... lose a many of the commercial breaks for starters, and work to make it a 2 1/2 hour product much like the NHL did a few years back. 

[King Postwhore]

Agreed.  I stay away to enjoy the games. 

[El Barto]

The worst thing (commercially) for the NFL would've been a Jags/Vikings SB.

On the contrary, two first timers, a first ever home field advantage, no Patriots, I think it would have been swell for them. Besides, the audience is mostly there to swill cheap beer at parties and watch the commercials nowadays.

@ Nick... I don't have a horse in the race either, but there have been more than a few eyebrow crinkling moments around calls (or non-calls) that favour the Patriots.

I think people find what they're looking for. There are tons of calls that could go either way in every game. How often is it said that there's holding every play? People are convinced that there's a conspiracy to favor the Patriots, which is laughable, so they see every call in their favor as suspect and ignore the ones that go against them.

[RoeDent]

It's really a bizarre turn of events. I am kind of disappointed that it's a Patriots v Eagles Super Bowl, and yet who (apart from diehard Eagles fans, I suppose) had the Eagles in the Super Bowl back in September? They have been a real surprise package this season, and because sports media/fans are so minutely focused on the here and now, it's very easy to forget that.

[kaos2900]

Really surprised that the Vikings lost the way they did. That game was over at half after the pick-6 and strip sack in the red zone. Philly played lights out on both sides of the ball.

I'm also really surprised that the Eagles are such underdogs in the super bowl. They aren't that much different than the Jags and they should beat the pats. Of course the Patriots have SB experience and Comeback King Tom Brady so it will be difficult. But the Eagles defense is legit and will make this a good Super Bowl. I don't foresee a blowout.

[Stadler]

I don't know that I agree with most of what's being said (except for el Barto; ask Brandin Cooks about that no-call on pass interference when the Jag defender was literally holding his arm down as they are running down the field) here.

Watching the Jags/Pats - and I did, every minute - was watching two very disciplined very skilled teams engage in a well-played game.   I didn't watch the entire Vikes/Eagles game, but I saw about half, and in comparison it was a sandlot game.   Blount is tough, but so is Fournette, and after a first quarter of 7 yard runs that should have been 2 or 3, the Pats shut him the fuck down.  They will do the same to Blount.    The Eagles D is tough, but so is the Jags, and when the Pats needed to move the football, they found a way to do so.   They will do the same to the Eagles.   

You need to play a full 60 minutes of football against the Pats, and it's hard to do.   I know most of you will argue with me, but I said this to the buddies I was with while watching the game:   when the Jags took a knee before halftime, I said "they're not playing to win, they're playing not to lose.  Second half is going to be interesting."   

[El Barto]

I don't know that I agree with most of what's being said (except for el Barto; ask Brandin Cooks about that no-call on pass interference when the Jag defender was literally holding his arm down as they are running down the field) here.

Watching the Jags/Pats - and I did, every minute - was watching two very disciplined very skilled teams engage in a well-played game.   I didn't watch the entire Vikes/Eagles game, but I saw about half, and in comparison it was a sandlot game.   Blount is tough, but so is Fournette, and after a first quarter of 7 yard runs that should have been 2 or 3, the Pats shut him the fuck down.  They will do the same to Blount.    The Eagles D is tough, but so is the Jags, and when the Pats needed to move the football, they found a way to do so.   They will do the same to the Eagles.   

You need to play a full 60 minutes of football against the Pats, and it's hard to do.   I know most of you will argue with me, but I said this to the buddies I was with while watching the game:   when the Jags took a knee before halftime, I said "they're not playing to win, they're playing not to lose.  Second half is going to be interesting."

Big point of discussion where we were watching. They'd moved backwards on their previous drive and were afraid to play football for the final 55 seconds. The outcome was predictable. A couple of passes for a long FG plus the ball back to begin the 2nd would have kept them in it. I can understand where they were coming from, and in week 5 that might have made sense. In the AFC-CCG against the Pats you need to play with some balls.

And while people want to blame Goodell's Patriots Mafia for the delay of game penalty, they ignore the fact that the Jags couldn't get the ball snapped within thirty seconds after coming off a freaking timeout! That's just inexcusable. In the meantime, Bill's digging into the bag of tricks to eek out a win, busting out the double-pass and the fleaflicker (successfully, unlike the Jags). Really, this was a better game than people want to admit, with both sides doing their share to win or lose it. Dismissing it as a gift from the refs is silly. Just wait for the next Wrestlemania. 

[Dublagent66]

I'll sum up this season in one word.  BORING!!  As far as the SB goes...can't stand either team. 

[jingle.boy]

Big point of discussion where we were watching. They'd moved backwards on their previous drive and were afraid to play football for the final 55 seconds. The outcome was predictable. A couple of passes for a long FG plus the ball back to begin the 2nd would have kept them in it. I can understand where they were coming from, and in week 5 that might have made sense. In the AFC-CCG against the Pats you need to play with some balls.

And while people want to blame Goodell's Patriots Mafia for the delay of game penalty, they ignore the fact that the Jags couldn't get the ball snapped within thirty seconds after coming off a freaking timeout! That's just inexcusable. In the meantime, Bill's digging into the bag of tricks to eek out a win, busting out the double-pass and the fleaflicker (successfully, unlike the Jags). Really, this was a better game than people want to admit, with both sides doing their share to win or lose it. Dismissing it as a gift from the refs is silly. Just wait for the next Wrestlemania.

I agree with everything you said there EB.  Reminds me of the Pack/Seahawks NFCCG a few years back, when the Pack picked off Wilson with about 4 mins to go, took a knee rather than try and gain some yardage.  I said right then that they were gonna lose the game.  Then they follow that up with 3 conservative running plays to burn time/timeouts, and we all know what happened after that.  Also reminds me of John Fox not having Peyton take a knee at the end of 1H AND 2H when they lost to the Ravens in the AFCCG the year before that.  Fox let 55 seconds and 5 timeouts go to waste!!!  Man I was angry.

However ...  one shouldn't be ignoring the fact the Pats benefitted from some of the officiating.  If that (late whistle) DoG isn't called, the Jags run the clock down and get a FG attempt at a minimum, and it's anywhere between 14-3 and 21-3+ 2H possession.  Look, the Pats have proven time and time again they can comeback, so whatever additional halftime lead the Jags had wouldn't have meant jack.  But don't ignore that the Pats were a net-beneficiary of some questionable calls.

Again.

It's like the hockey team that has 8 penalties called against them, and 1 for them.  Regardless how good you play, it presents an additional hurdle to overcome.

[Stadler]

I don't at all agree with the Pats Mafia line of thinking.  At ALL.   To make that argument you have to ignore too many variables.  We mentioned the no-call on Cooks', and yet haven't even mentioned the Lewis non-fumble that went to the Jags early on.   The call went to the Jags on the field, and New York - not at all immune to reversing calls in hindsight - sustained the call on the field.   

BUT, for shits and giggles, let's assume you're right.    If you're a well-coached team - which the Patriots are - you take into account ALL the variables, including shitty officiating.  If you believe that you're not going to get any calls in your direction, then you assume the play clock ends at "1 second" and you don't push the envelope.   That was a legit call, and it was in the Jags' power to snap that ball before it was an issue.   

[cramx3]

Agreed.  I stay away to enjoy the games.

I stopped playing fantasy for two reasons, one is the above in that I hated watching my team yet kind of wanting a player on the opposing team to do well for my fantasy.  It made rooting for my team less enjoyable.  And also because I was terrible at fantasy football and didn't want to put in the time to study everything to actually win a league, which it seemed that those who did consistently won the money.  Screw that, let me enjoy the real game and keep my money.  Not worth it for me anymore. 

[bosk1]

I really didn't see anything I could call "questionable" officiating.  That doesn't mean they got every call correct.  But the big ones, the ones people are calling "game changers," were all perfectly legit.

Snap the ball after the game clock strikes 0, especially after coming from a timeout, and you'll almost always get called.

Shove a receiver out of bounds when the ball is in the air, you'll almost always get called for PI.

Have your arm around the receiver's neck, you'll almost always get called for PI.

Those weren't even close calls.  They were no-brainers.

Were there some no-calls against the Pats?  Sure.  But I didn't see anything questionable there either.  There was nothing obvious where there's no way the refs miss it, but they swallowed the flag/whistle.  Correct me if I'm missing something, but I didn't see anything where I could legitimately say, "If I'm a ref standing down on the field watching the game in real time, there's no way I make the call that guy missed."  I saw missed calls go both ways.  But nothing so serious that it raised any flags in my mind.  And not so many one way or the other that I felt the need to start keeping a tally.  Seemed like a routine, decently-officiated game from what I saw. 

[RoeDent]

There was a sense of inevitability about the Pats win last night. As if no one could do anything about the rumbling juggernaut that is the Pats offence. I'm rooting for them to win now, especially after seeing the way Eagles fans sent off the Vikings team bus. Why aren't we talking about how disgraceful that is?

[TheCountOfNYC]

There was a sense of inevitability about the Pats win last night. As if no one could do anything about the rumbling juggernaut that is the Pats offence. I'm rooting for them to win now, especially after seeing the way Eagles fans sent off the Vikings team bus. Why aren't we talking about how disgraceful that is?

Because it’s Philly so nobody is surprised.

[El Barto]

Big point of discussion where we were watching. They'd moved backwards on their previous drive and were afraid to play football for the final 55 seconds. The outcome was predictable. A couple of passes for a long FG plus the ball back to begin the 2nd would have kept them in it. I can understand where they were coming from, and in week 5 that might have made sense. In the AFC-CCG against the Pats you need to play with some balls.

And while people want to blame Goodell's Patriots Mafia for the delay of game penalty, they ignore the fact that the Jags couldn't get the ball snapped within thirty seconds after coming off a freaking timeout! That's just inexcusable. In the meantime, Bill's digging into the bag of tricks to eek out a win, busting out the double-pass and the fleaflicker (successfully, unlike the Jags). Really, this was a better game than people want to admit, with both sides doing their share to win or lose it. Dismissing it as a gift from the refs is silly. Just wait for the next Wrestlemania.

I agree with everything you said there EB.  Reminds me of the Pack/Seahawks NFCCG a few years back, when the Pack picked off Wilson with about 4 mins to go, took a knee rather than try and gain some yardage.  I said right then that they were gonna lose the game.  Then they follow that up with 3 conservative running plays to burn time/timeouts, and we all know what happened after that.  Also reminds me of John Fox not having Peyton take a knee at the end of 1H AND 2H when they lost to the Ravens in the AFCCG the year before that.  Fox let 55 seconds and 5 timeouts go to waste!!!  Man I was angry.

However ...  one shouldn't be ignoring the fact the Pats benefitted from some of the officiating.  If that (late whistle) DoG isn't called, the Jags run the clock down and get a FG attempt at a minimum, and it's anywhere between 14-3 and 21-3+ 2H possession.  Look, the Pats have proven time and time again they can comeback, so whatever additional halftime lead the Jags had wouldn't have meant jack.  But don't ignore that the Pats were a net-beneficiary of some questionable calls.

Again.

It's like the hockey team that has 8 penalties called against them, and 1 for them.  Regardless how good you play, it presents an additional hurdle to overcome.

If you don't want to be down 8 to 1 in the penalty department play with some fucking discipline. Here's something to consider. If there are penalties that are judgement calls, PI and holding, which some say happen on every play of the game, isn't it reasonable to conclude that just being a mere 5% better than other teams at not committing PIs or holds would result in a significant decrease in the penalty count? More than just five percent?  I'd call it more likely that it's that five percent that constitute the bulk of the judgment calls. Is it unreasonable to conclude that a Belichick coached team might be 5% better at not committing penalties?

And for fuck's sake, don't snap the ball at zero after the referees manually start the game clock and stand around watching it for 40 seconds. 

And if you want an indicator of an undisciplined team, watch how they behave at the kneel down to end the game. I'd bet money that anytime a team acts childish during the kneel down they also had more penalties to during the game. The Jags were no where near as bad as Seattle after choking away the super bowl, but they were still acting like punks.

[El Barto]

There was a sense of inevitability about the Pats win last night. As if no one could do anything about the rumbling juggernaut that is the Pats offence. I'm rooting for them to win now, especially after seeing the way Eagles fans sent off the Vikings team bus. Why aren't we talking about how disgraceful that is?

Because it’s Philly so nobody is surprised.

Yup. If they didn't set the bus on fire or sling poo at it then it's acceptable conduct for Philadelphia fans.

[pg1067]

I think people find what they're looking for. There are tons of calls that could go either way in every game. How often is it said that there's holding every play? People are convinced that there's a conspiracy to favor the Patriots, which is laughable, so they see every call in their favor as suspect and ignore the ones that go against them.

Perhaps the silliest thing about all the pro-Patriots talk is that it's completely inconsistent with the vigor with which the NFL conducted the witch hunt that was "deflate-gate."  Moreover, the notion that some sort of pro-Patriots officiating conspiracy could be kept secret for so long is just not plausible.  If anything like that actually existed, some disgruntles schlub who was a back judge for three years would have spilled the beans by now.  The NFL is also the league most concerned with parity, so perpetuating a dynasty makes no sense.

Seemed like a routine, decently-officiated game from what I saw.

Could't agree more.

The Jags were lights out for most of the first three quarters but then went into a conservative shell.  I could't believe how far off the Pats' receivers their vaunted DBs were playing.  The Pats' receivers are average to slightly above average at best, but anyone can be a good receiver when the cornerbacks give 10 yards' cushion.

The Eagles v. Vikings game was over almost before it began.  Total waste of time, and I feel bad for Vikings fans.

[sylvan]

I don't at all agree with the Pats Mafia line of thinking.  At ALL.   To make that argument you have to ignore too many variables.  We mentioned the no-call on Cooks', and yet haven't even mentioned the Lewis non-fumble that went to the Jags early on.   The call went to the Jags on the field, and New York - not at all immune to reversing calls in hindsight - sustained the call on the field.   

Hold on... The double pass that ended in a fumble turnover? Are you even remotely (within 100 miles of) implying that wasn't a fumble? I for the life of me can't understand what's confusing about some of these rules. If a player makes a catch over the goal line, but doesn't keep control throughout the play, it is NOT a touchdown. It's not an instantaneous thing, it's still a football play that has to be completed. When the ball is jarred loose on the initial hit on Lewis, he NEVER regains control of the ball. This absurd idea that he somehow pins it against his hip for the smallest fraction of a second and thus regains control, all while ignoring the simple fact that the defender just plain TOOK the ball from him is problematic and has no place anywhere near athletic competition...

As a Jags fan, I have nothing to say about the refs. I agree that it was two impressive teams that played a hard game. The numbers of penalties and the idea of no holding calls against the fastest most athletic defense make me think, but it ends there. I have more of a problem with people even imagining that Lewis had the ball  .

[Stadler]

There was a sense of inevitability about the Pats win last night. As if no one could do anything about the rumbling juggernaut that is the Pats offence. I'm rooting for them to win now, especially after seeing the way Eagles fans sent off the Vikings team bus. Why aren't we talking about how disgraceful that is?

Because it’s Philly so nobody is surprised.

Yup. If they didn't set the bus on fire or sling poo at it then it's acceptable conduct for Philadelphia fans.

Depends on your point of view.  I lived in Philly for almost five years; you have to sling poo at least once to establish your bona fides as a "real fan" in  South Philly.      

[Stadler]

I don't at all agree with the Pats Mafia line of thinking.  At ALL.   To make that argument you have to ignore too many variables.  We mentioned the no-call on Cooks', and yet haven't even mentioned the Lewis non-fumble that went to the Jags early on.   The call went to the Jags on the field, and New York - not at all immune to reversing calls in hindsight - sustained the call on the field.   

Hold on... The double pass that ended in a fumble turnover? Are you even remotely (within 100 miles of) implying that wasn't a fumble? I for the life of me can't understand what's confusing about some of these rules. If a player makes a catch over the goal line, but doesn't keep control throughout the play, it is NOT a touchdown. It's not an instantaneous thing, it's still a football play that has to be completed. When the ball is jarred loose on the initial hit on Lewis, he NEVER regains control of the ball. This absurd idea that he somehow pins it against his hip for the smallest fraction of a second and thus regains control, all while ignoring the simple fact that the defender just plain TOOK the ball from him is problematic and has no place anywhere near athletic competition...

As a Jags fan, I have nothing to say about the refs. I agree that it was two impressive teams that played a hard game. The numbers of penalties and the idea of no holding calls against the fastest most athletic defense make me think, but it ends there. I have more of a problem with people even imagining that Lewis had the ball  .

That's exactly the play to which I'm referring, but you're misunderstanding me.  I'm not arguing it wasn't a fumble, I'm saying that if the "fix was in" that's as good a play as any to assert the bias.  I tend to agree with your assessment of the play, but I don't think it was a slam dunk, and I think it has to be mentioned as an example of where the call didn't go the Pats way.  The hit on Gronk is another one; Morrone said he felt it was the right call, but Richard Sherman punctured his spleen arguing on social media that the refs were preventing DBs from doing their job, and that the choice (falsely) was between potentially ringing Gronk's bell maybe, or completely obliterating his knees with a low hit.   Now, that assessment seems to ignore about four feet of territory in between his knees and medulla oblongata, but still. 

[sylvan]

Gotcha, in that case I would agree. But then again, it's like the idea of having the answer key for the final exam. You don't want to get ALL of them right lol. And I also think the call on the Gronk hit was the right call. It clearly wasn't targeting or malicious, but that stuff is bound to happen on occasion.

[gmillerdrake]

I'm not arguing it wasn't a fumble

What I'd be ticked about if I were a Jags fan is the fact that the play was whistled when he wasn't touched or down and had no one even close to him as he ran back what would have been a touchdown to go up 27-10 in the 4th quarter. Instead, for some reason....it's whistled dead.....the Jags punt.

[bosk1]

I am of course speculating here, but I would guess that the play being whistled dead had something to do with the player being down.  But that's just a guess.

[PowerSlave]

I missed what the Philly fans did to the Vikings bus. Can someone clue me in?

[gmillerdrake]

I am of course speculating here, but I would guess that the play being whistled dead had something to do with the player being down.  But that's just a guess.

But he was never touched. I think that may be 'why' the ref blew the whistle....but again....it was "fortunate" the whistle blew and made it impossible for him to close out his great play. A quick whistle that could have not bee blown. Let the play happen....if the Pats want to challenge he was down then they can challenge.