2017 NFL thread v. Patriots Dynasty

[jingle.boy]

replay was instituted to fix the egregious incorrect calls, not to try and fix calls that are so close that we can watch them over and over and over and over and still not be sure what the right call is.

This so fucking much.  I get having/wanting to review all scoring plays so as to not 'waste' a challenge flag. But maybe the league should look at it once at full speed, and if nothing seems amiss, then that's it... call stands.  Not spend 4 minutes looking at 11 different angles frame by literal frame (which is probably 24 fps at least... maybe 48).  One frame makes it not look like a catch, and that wipes out everything about the play.

What ever happened to a time limit that the refs used to have to render a decision?

[TAC]

The heck with Gronk, he should have been suspended for the rest of the season for that. No excuse for that kind of behavior. He intentionally hurts someone from behind on the ground giving the poor guy a concussion ( which could lead to future problems) .  The NFL only gives him a slap on the wrist, when he should have ended up in jail like anybody else that pulls something like that.
It's funny how a lot of commentators still praise him after showing his true colors.

Damn. C'mon man.

replay was instituted to fix the egregious incorrect calls, not to try and fix calls that are so close that we can watch them over and over and over and over and still not be sure what the right call is.

This so fucking much.  I get having/wanting to review all scoring plays so as to not 'waste' a challenge flag. But maybe the league should look at it once at full speed, and if nothing seems amiss, then that's it... call stands.  Not spend 4 minutes looking at 11 different angles frame by literal frame (which is probably 24 fps at least... maybe 48).  One frame makes it not look like a catch, and that wipes out everything about the play.

What ever happened to a time limit that the refs used to have to render a decision?

But at the end of the day, the call has to be right. Now, if it's too close to call, then the call on the field should be upheld.

[El Barto]

replay was instituted to fix the egregious incorrect calls, not to try and fix calls that are so close that we can watch them over and over and over and over and still not be sure what the right call is.

This so fucking much.  I get having/wanting to review all scoring plays so as to not 'waste' a challenge flag. But maybe the league should look at it once at full speed, and if nothing seems amiss, then that's it... call stands.  Not spend 4 minutes looking at 11 different angles frame by literal frame (which is probably 24 fps at least... maybe 48).  One frame makes it not look like a catch, and that wipes out everything about the play.

What ever happened to a time limit that the refs used to have to render a decision?

And then you'll see non-catches ruled touchdowns. Then we'll have to listen to Tony Romo opine the whole game about how the Patriots just got handed a win due to a bad call.

[jingle.boy]

I don't think that a right-from-wrong call should be made only because of 48fps 4K video allowed someone to see if it was "correct".  If we're that reliant on technology, then let's do away with all on-field refs!  I'm being facetious of course - but at what point does is the human element acceptable.

I always felt the key word in any instant replay review/over-turn had to be egregious.  But we've gone the way of any minute error only detectable by a plethora of camera angles and reviews at ultra high-def.

[dparrott]

And like that, Dallas is out....Woohoo...

And Seattle is still in!   
And Rams win the west for the first time since 2003!

[Dublagent66]

Dallas Cowboys.  Doing less with more since 1996. 

Most talented under achieving team in the league with a coaching staff not worth a fraction of their weight in shit.   

[dparrott]

Raiders being Raiders.    At least they kept it close.

[El Barto]

I don't think that a right-from-wrong call should be made only because of 48fps 4K video allowed someone to see if it was "correct".  If we're that reliant on technology, then let's do away with all on-field refs!  I'm being facetious of course - but at what point does is the human element acceptable.

I always felt the key word in any instant replay review/over-turn had to be egregious.  But we've gone the way of any minute error only detectable by a plethora of camera angles and reviews at ultra high-def.

In that case the question becomes where do we draw the line, let alone do we want to go there at all. What you're talking about is literally allowing error in the game. Do we want to try and insure the right calls are made, or do we want to allow for human fallibility to play a role in the outcome. If the replay official sees a guy's foot off the ground when he establishes control is he supposed to defer to a ref he now knows to be wrong?

And this is all the more important because the network, the talking heads, and people here at DTF will pick it apart. If James' or Benjamin's catches hadn't been reviewed and stood as touchdowns what do you think Romo would have done? They'd have come back from a commercial and he'd have shown the 48FPS replay to explain how it wasn't actually a catch and the Patriots just got jobbed.

[jingle.boy]

Do we want to try and insure the right calls are made, or do we want to allow for human fallibility to play a role in the outcome. If the replay official sees a guy's foot off the ground when he establishes control is he supposed to defer to a ref he now knows to be wrong?

First, I think it's BS that the goal is ensure the "right" call is made.  There is no 100% right/wrong in something that has an element of subjectivity to it.  But to answer your second question, yes... I think on-field refs should have seniority over replay officials.  Why don't replay officials call down when there is an obvious hold made that allowed the QB to throw a TD pass?  Or an obvious face-mask that would give that 15-yards to extend a drive?  Or the obvious *non* face-mask that shouldn't have been called?  Look the NFL already puts limits on what the replay officials can and cannot call.  I think limiting them to egregious calls should be their boundary. 

And who the fuck cares what announcers say?  That's like suggesting gov't policy should be moulded around Alex Jones' latest podcast rant  . Ok, bad example given our current state of gov't affairs 

I'm reminded of the old adage... You can please some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.  The fact that so many are debating/discussing this topic would suggest few are "pleased" with the current status quo.  Remember when "tuck" was a rule.  That got changed - people understood the rule, and some even believed it was the right rule.  But it was not in the spirit of what a quarterback throw was.  IMO, how officials view "control" is not in the spirit of what a catch is.

[mike099]

Of the teams that have already clinched a playoff berth, how many cannot improve the bracket positioning win or lose in the last week of the season?  I would think some would not play key players if it did not make difference in the standings.

[bosk1]

And like that, Dallas is out....Woohoo...

And Seattle is still in!   
And Rams win the west for the first time since 2003!

Yeah, the most tragic outcome of this weekend is that Seattle is still not only alive, but likely to get in.  I don't think Atlanta beats Carolina.  I just don't.  Carolina is still playing pretty well and has too much at stake to just lie down this week, and Atlanta is pretty shaky right now in the way they are playing.  And I think Seattle can probably muster up a win at home against Arizona. 

[King Postwhore]

Patriots have Harrison at Gillette today kicking the old tires......

[TAC]

I wonder what he has left. They just need him to make one key play at a key time this post season, similar to Hightower making those key plays at the end of each of the last SBs.

[El Barto]

Do we want to try and insure the right calls are made, or do we want to allow for human fallibility to play a role in the outcome. If the replay official sees a guy's foot off the ground when he establishes control is he supposed to defer to a ref he now knows to be wrong?

First, I think it's BS that the goal is ensure the "right" call is made.  There is no 100% right/wrong in something that has an element of subjectivity to it.  But to answer your second question, yes... I think on-field refs should have seniority over replay officials.  Why don't replay officials call down when there is an obvious hold made that allowed the QB to throw a TD pass?  Or an obvious face-mask that would give that 15-yards to extend a drive?  Or the obvious *non* face-mask that shouldn't have been called?  Look the NFL already puts limits on what the replay officials can and cannot call.  I think limiting them to egregious calls should be their boundary. 

What I asked is do we want to try and insure the right calls are made. Not are we currently insuring that the right calls are made. Your answer leads me to believe that you don't care if they are. We're talking now about a specific circumstance and a technical interpretation of a rule. The vast majority of replay reversals are mundane. "The player's knee was down before the ball came loose. Therefore it is not a fumble." Are we supposed to let that stand because the referee on the field didn't see the knee? This is what I meant by where do we draw the line.

And something else we're not considering is that referees have come to depend on IR as a backup. Sometimes you'll see a referee running all the way from the other sideline signalling dramatically that the ball didn't cross the goal line or something. This would be a guy who saw something pretty clear and conclusive. More often you'll see a referee look at another waiting to see if he saw something. That was the Benjamin catch the other day. A ref 5 feet away had to look to another before signalling touchdown. I think they sometimes make a signal knowing that it'll be reviewed in the box anyway, which I think is a good move for them. Better the reversal than a guess.

And for the record, announcers are the beginning of all controversies.

[El Barto]

Patriots have Harrison at Gillette today kicking the old tires......

God damn I really hate that guy. Hopefully he's got nothing left in the tank.

[jingle.boy]

And something else we're not considering is that referees have come to depend on IR as a backup. Sometimes you'll see a referee running all the way from the other sideline signalling dramatically that the ball didn't cross the goal line or something. This would be a guy who saw something pretty clear and conclusive. More often you'll see a referee look at another waiting to see if he saw something. That was the Benjamin catch the other day. A ref 5 feet away had to look to another before signalling touchdown. I think they sometimes make a signal knowing that it'll be reviewed in the box anyway, which I think is a good move for them. Better the reversal than a guess.

And for the record, announcers are the beginning of all controversies.

^ All very good points, EB. 

[mikeyd23]

Patriots have Harrison at Gillette today kicking the old tires......

Totally savage move 

God damn I really hate that guy. Hopefully he's got nothing left in the tank.

All things considered, he pretty much doesn’t. But wouldn’t it be just fitting for this generation Pats team to find another way to humiliate this generation Steelers team. Harrison making a big swing play in a playoff game sounds about right to me.

[King Postwhore]

Done deal.  Sorry El Barto.

[mikeyd23]

Done deal.  Sorry El Barto.

Interesting. My initial reaction is that Harrison is done, so who cares, but I also feel like he’s going to break Bens leg in a playoff game or something 

[El Barto]

I know he his kind of pissed off at the Steelers and Tomlin. He might want to really stick it to them. The problem is that he might cripple somebody in the process. The good news is that the he's plenty well rested since the Tomlin wouldn't give him any snaps.

[mikeyd23]

I know he his kind of pissed off at the Steelers and Tomlin. He might want to really stick it to them. The problem is that he might cripple somebody in the process. The good news is that the he's plenty well rested since the Tomlin wouldn't give him any snaps.

I dig it - the Tomlin it is. I agree with the Tomlins call to not play him though, Watt came in as a rookie and played extremely well. I feel like it was the right call.

That said I agree with you, if his history of emotional maturity is any indicator, he’ll probably try to cripple a Steeler if the situation presents itself.

[King Postwhore]

Since he was only used 40 snaps this year I'm not sure how viable he is but if he can be used in certain situations that'll probably be good.

[Rattlehead]

I think Harrison can still be effective as a situational pass rusher, plus it seems like a forgone conclusion that the AFC Championship game will be Pittsburgh @ New England, so he'll most likely have a chance to stick it to the Steelers like Barto said.

That reminds me of Al Davis back in the day, he used to pick up seemingly any former Bronco he could so they could stick it to them when the Raiders played them  Sadly it did work a few times. You can never underestimate a player's hunger to stick it to a former team, especially in a quest for one last championship.

[PowerSlave]

I think Harrison can still be effective as a situational pass rusher

This...

If memory serves me right, he had a fairly significant play towards the end of the Chiefs game. He still has something left, and he'll be going up against Big Al if/when they play again in the playoffs. I love AL, but he can be prone to giving up sacks if a player that has good leverage/power goes up against him.

[KevShmev]

And for the record, announcers are the beginning of all controversies.

Man, if that ain't the truth.  I am convinced that Randy Moss pretending to moon the crowd in GB in that playoff game many years ago would have been a non-story had Joe Buck not reacted immediately with such disgust.

[KevShmev]

Apologies for forgetting to do this last week.

Post-Week 16 Power Rankings
Top 10
1. New England - 5th in scoring defense, which no one is talking about
2. Minnesota - Case Keenum continues to play well enough for this team to be a Super Bowl team
3. Pittsburgh - are hoping to avenge that loss to NE last week
4. LA Rams - unreal season by Todd Gurley
5. New Orleans - the best 1-2 punch at RB we have seen this century
6. Philadelphia - yeah, yeah, they clinched the 1 seed, but does anyone really think Nick Foles is taking this team anywhere?
7. Carolina - defense continues to carry this team
8. Kansas City - this team is quietly starting to look like that team that started 5-0
9. Jacksonville - taken to the cleaners by Jimmy G, but that defense will go into the postseason with a chip on their shoulders
10. Atlanta - can they lock up that last playoff spot by beating a tough Panthers team

NFL MVP Top 5
1. Carson Wentz - they won last night, but Wentz's value to that team has never been more obvious; he still leads the league in TD passes despite missing the last 2+ games
2. Todd Gurley - what a beast this guy is
3. Tom Brady - he will win it by default now, but he shouldn't
4. Russell Wilson - if the Seahawks squeeze into the playoffs, he'll get some votes
5. Alvin Kamara - this guy is electric

[Rattlehead]

The playoffs can't come soon enough... unfortunately there's not a whole lot to look forward to this weekend with most of the playoff spots already locked up. They're not even going to flex a game into SNF like they usually do in week 17

[mike099]

The Tennessee - Jacksonville game in Nashville could be a good one.
An espn article states Jacksonville will play starters even though the
Outcome will not have any effect on Jacksonville’s playoff  position.
If the Titans win the will likely play at the Jaguars in the first round.

[bosk1]

10. Atlanta - can they lock up that last playoff spot by beating a tough Panthers team

I doubt it.  I think they are in trouble in terms of their playoff hopes.

[kaos2900]

I have no problem with Brady winning MVP. The patriots would be nothing this year without him. Now, if Wentz didn't get hurt I'd prefer him. Love Gurley but there are a lot of good players on that team.

[bosk1]

So, does anyone see Seattle realistically NOT making the playoffs?  I don't think I've ever been more confident of a #7 seed getting in going into week 17.  I really wish the NFC West games were flipped so that it was SF vs. Sea and Ariz vs. L.A. 

[PowerSlave]

So, does anyone see Seattle realistically NOT making the playoffs?  I don't think I've ever been more confident of a #7 seed getting in going into week 17.  I really wish the NFC West games were flipped so that it was SF vs. Sea and Ariz vs. L.A.

If the Falcons put it together like they're capable of doing then it could be interesting. That being said, I think it's going to be Seattle making it in the dance.

[Cool Chris]

Seattle is a bit of a mess the last couple weeks. Beat Philly, lost to JAX with a huge meltdown, get smoked by Rams at home, crush Dallas on road. Lots of injuries, dissent, and a feeling lots of guys aren't going to be around next year. If I was a millionaire I wouldn't bet a dime on this team either way.

[CrimsonSunrise]

So, does anyone see Seattle realistically NOT making the playoffs?  I don't think I've ever been more confident of a #7 seed getting in going into week 17.  I really wish the NFC West games were flipped so that it was SF vs. Sea and Ariz vs. L.A.

I agree.  Would love to see you guys play spoiler to the Seahawks.  As it is, you're gonna get our second stringers in what amounts to a preseason game just about.  While I get McVay's logic for sitting guys, I was really looking forward to this game!  Now we will be there...but probably gonna be a losing cause now.

[TheCountOfNYC]

So, does anyone see Seattle realistically NOT making the playoffs?  I don't think I've ever been more confident of a #7 seed getting in going into week 17.  I really wish the NFC West games were flipped so that it was SF vs. Sea and Ariz vs. L.A.

I think it’s more likely that Seattle misses the playoffs than many people think for the sole reason that it only takes one win from Atlanta to keep the Seahawks out. With a win and in situation at home against the Panthers, I see the Falcons playing hard, and since they own the head-to-head tiebreaker over Seattle, a win would give Atlanta the 6th seed and keep the Seahawks out. Now granted, the Panthers are fighting for a division title so this game is no gimme for the Falcons, who haven’t been playing as well as they should have this year, but Seattle’s playoff spot is nowhere close to being guaranteed.