Things that I find mildly irritating v.2

[TAC]

My wife does the bills and handles the insurance.

[The Walrus]

In my 12 years of talking to customers about their insurance, it is just very common for married guys to not know their insurance info. It baffles me why you wouldn't even know the company name even if your significant other pays the bill,  that's all

[TAC]

People are fucking stupid, man.

[Stadler]

My thoughts on this have changed over the years (wives/kids).  When I was 24, I'd've been like "no excuse; strap on your big boy pants and get involved".   Being married - division of labor and all that - I realize that you can't be hip deep in everything, but I still would have thought that you'd at least have thumbed through the glove box ONCE and noticed the "Nationwide" logo or the "GEICO" blue letters.  But then I had kids; my daughter is so smart, I mean merit scholarship at a decent size school/honors program in college, but I'm shocked at the things she doesn't know from a day-to-day perspective.   She can do statistical regressions and derivatives, but we had a debate the other day about whether a duck was a fish (her take) or a bird (the rest of the 7.3 billion people on the planet's take).  When my stepdaughter moved out, we had to walk her through things like the difference between registrations and insurance for cars, and her first question: "where do I get that?"

By the way, Katt, that's not a veiled dig at you for being young; it's meant literally, just about how MY thoughts have changed over the years.

[TAC]

When my stepdaughter moved out, we had to walk her through things like the difference between registrations and insurance for cars, and her first question: "where do I get that?"

But honestly, I would've been just as clueless.

[bosk1]

Oh hell no. I'm salaried and I work 40. If you want me to do extra hours or off hours, then I'm leaving early on Friday.

Well, if you are exempt (and thus, paid a salary), there is no such thing as "extra" hours.  The law contemplates that you may sometimes or always work in excess of 40 hours if you are an exempt employee.  The concept of a 40 hour workweek does not apply to that class of employees.

I think it goes back to the "exempt" thing.  I am non exempt.  I am always so confused about what that means.  I get the feeling it means they could work me to death 

What it means is this (puts on employment lawyer hat):  Federal and most state laws on wages provide that the "default" position is that employees are paid for all hours worked, and there are various rules in place that relate to that, such as:  employees must be paid a minimum wage, employees receive premium pay for overtime (generally, anything over 40 hours; in CA, you also get the 1.5 premium for daily work in excess of 8 hours, and a 2x premium for work in excess of 12 hours); etc.  If you fall into an exempt classification because of your job duties, the law provides that many of those rules do not apply to you, which is why your employer can pay you a salary regardless of the number of hours you work.  The rationale behind that is basically, as Stadler put it, you fall into a classification where your job is often more outcome oriented than hours oriented, and it is contemplated that your hours may fluctuate and may sometimes/always exceed 40 hours per week.

[lordxizor]

I have a meeting on my calendar every 6 months to give my wife an update on financial stuff that she would otherwise have no clue of. If I were to get hit by a bus, I want to make sure she can cobble together all of the behind the scenes stuff for our life. Honestly, it basically boils down to me saying "see that folder of links called financial? If there's a link in there we have an account with them."

[Cool Chris]

That is a great idea Xizor. We need to do that here. Every January I show my wife our financial standing and budget for the upcoming year. If I take longer than 5 minutes her eyes start to glaze over. I also have a spreadsheet with all our website/account usernames and passwords. I don't type in the actual password. For me it's easy as I have the same password, so i just 'Usual.' It's much more complicated since she can't figure out to have the same password across the board - probably why she can't ever remember them. So I end up typing something like "The gmail password, but with a ! instead of a #.'

[jingle.boy]

That probably isn't gender-specific. I handle all the 'business'-related stuff in our marriage and my wife trusts me with everything. I am sure she knows who handles our car insurance only because she had the same company before we met. But I am sure there are other 'obvious' things she couldn't tell you.

^This.  If the logo wasn't on her bank/credit card, mrs.jingle would have no idea where our financial affairs are at.  I've got a detailed document along with our will, so if/when I checkout before her, she won't be completely hopeless.

[Cool Chris]

How does that work if someone dies anyway? Does the surviving member get a power of attorney to be able to access accounts that they don't have the information for?

[pg1067]

How do grown men not know what insurance company they have for their car insurance? Every week I talk to at least a couple men who don't know this info because their wives take care of all that. You don't even know the name? 

I don't know what you do for a living, but I would say that, not only is it disturbing that folks don't know who their insurer is, it's even more disturbing that so many people don't understand the BASIC distinctions between the various auto coverages (liability, comprehensive, collision and UM/UIM).

How does that work if someone dies anyway? Does the surviving member get a power of attorney to be able to access accounts that they don't have the information for?

There's no such thing as a power of attorney after death, and any power of attorney terminates automatically once the principal dies.  If a married couple has a joint account at a bank and one of them dies, and the survivor has no information other than the bank where the account is held,* then the survivor should be able to gain access to the account without too much difficulty.  However, if it's an account solely in the name of the deceased spouse, then he/she will probably either have to open probate or (if applicable) follow the state small estate procedures.

* - Nowadays, the concept of an account being held at a particular branch is a bit archaic.  If you have an account at a major bank like Chase or BofA, then you probably can go to any branch.  However, if you've got accounts at a bank that doesn't have branches, then things could be very complicated.

[Fiery Winds]

I also have a spreadsheet with all our website/account usernames and passwords. I don't type in the actual password. For me it's easy as I have the same password, so i just 'Usual.' It's much more complicated since she can't figure out to have the same password across the board - probably why she can't ever remember them. So I end up typing something like "The gmail password, but with a ! instead of a #.'

I would highly recommend to everyone to use a password manager and avoid this practice of storing in plaintext or using the same password (even with minor variations).

There are apps and browser extensions that let you seamlessly access your login details across devices with a single master password. You can have a 8-24 long gibberish password generated and saved for each new login without the need to memorize anything. I use Bitwarden, but LastPass and 1Password are pretty solid too.

[Stadler]

FYI, Chris, my wife works in probate, and PG has it exactly right, at least as far as I understand it.  We're having this type of discussion with my mother-in-law right now (we have reason to believe her husband has accounts all over). 

[Cool Chris]

re: Passwords. I have thought of using a password manager, just never got around to it. And I don't save them in text format, I save them in my spreadsheet under a code.

Stadler/pg1067, thank you. We have not made wills or done any preparation for when one of us passes. We each have a joint account, for our own 'mad money.' Everything else is joint. Our bank does not have branches in the traditional sense, so I wasn't sure if when I die, she calls in and says "Hello, my husband died and kept track of all our website credentials, can you help me?"

[The Walrus]

How do grown men not know what insurance company they have for their car insurance? Every week I talk to at least a couple men who don't know this info because their wives take care of all that. You don't even know the name? 

I don't know what you do for a living, but I would say that, not only is it disturbing that folks don't know who their insurer is, it's even more disturbing that so many people don't understand the BASIC distinctions between the various auto coverages (liability, comprehensive, collision and UM/UIM).

Yup, you're right on there. I can't prove it with cold hard numbers but I would wager about half the time people come in with a vehicle that needs to be fixed and they need a rental car, we'll ask them what kind of coverage they have, if rental is on their policy etc. blah blah, and they'll give a blank stare and a nervous laugh or "ummmmm *shrug*". Very very common. To me it's like showing up to the doctor with no knowledge of your health insurance. I do know it's not on the forefront of everyone's minds, but if, say, you know your car needs to be fixed, and you show up wanting to get it fixed, but you don't know your insurance info, um... plan better? 

[Cool Chris]

I don't know if it is fair to expect people to know the specific details of their auto insurance at the drop of a hat. Most people will go years if not their whole lives without an auto incident, so other than paying their insurance bill they don't need to know what cover age they have, aside from deciding it is sufficient when they initially sign up.

It's a different fish with health insurance. You know you have a doctor appointment coming up, you can check your coverage when you are making your appointment. You don't leave the house every day planning on getting in a car accident.

[The Walrus]

I don't know if it is fair to expect people to know the specific details of their auto insurance at the drop of a hat. Most people will go years if not their whole lives without an auto incident, so other than paying their insurance bill they don't need to know what cover age they have, aside from deciding it is sufficient when they initially sign up.

It's a different fish with health insurance. You know you have a doctor appointment coming up, you can check your coverage when you are making your appointment. You don't leave the house every day planning on getting in a car accident.

But if you get into a wreck, you know you're gonna have it looked at if it isn't obviously totaled, you know insurance could possibly be involved, you can check your coverage before the tow truck shows up or you get the shop to write an estimate on it (and that's a whole other can of worms I won't even start digging into). Kinda the same thing! I can think of several instances in which people have gotten into wrecks, called us up, I tell them exactly what to do depending on their insurance company (IF they know it), and they have all the time until they show up to figure out what exactly their policy is, yet when they show up they don't even know their company even though I told them to find that out on the phone. I dunno, I'm probably sounding like I'm making a bigger deal of it than it is, but I just think it's basic planning and logic personally. Dealing with it every week for 12 years just adds up. Definitely am not expecting them to know the ins and outs of their policy at the drop of a hat, they have all the time in the world before stepping into the shop to figure it out.

It's not a massive deal, just a daily annoyance of my job. A mild irritation, if you will.

[Stadler]

re: Passwords. I have thought of using a password manager, just never got around to it. And I don't save them in text format, I save them in my spreadsheet under a code.

Stadler/pg1067, thank you. We have not made wills or done any preparation for when one of us passes. We each have a joint account, for our own 'mad money.' Everything else is joint. Our bank does not have branches in the traditional sense, so I wasn't sure if when I die, she calls in and says "Hello, my husband died and kept track of all our website credentials, can you help me?"

Only if she batted her eyes and got the exact right person.     

Not at all telling you what to do, but for a number of years, my wife was Chief Clerk of the Probate Court, and I've probably heard 100 stories - including one of her close high school friends - who "were going to do it sometime" and didn't, and when fate stepped in there was nothing but a shit show left behind.  I'm not saying that's you, but unless you have the simplest of affairs (one wife, younger kids, not a ton of assets/liabilities or property) it's probably a good thing to make a priority. 

[TAC]

We have done it. It's more about protecting everything for our oldest son.

[Harmony]

re: Passwords. I have thought of using a password manager, just never got around to it. And I don't save them in text format, I save them in my spreadsheet under a code.

Stadler/pg1067, thank you. We have not made wills or done any preparation for when one of us passes. We each have a joint account, for our own 'mad money.' Everything else is joint. Our bank does not have branches in the traditional sense, so I wasn't sure if when I die, she calls in and says "Hello, my husband died and kept track of all our website credentials, can you help me?"

Only if she batted her eyes and got the exact right person.     

Not at all telling you what to do, but for a number of years, my wife was Chief Clerk of the Probate Court, and I've probably heard 100 stories - including one of her close high school friends - who "were going to do it sometime" and didn't, and when fate stepped in there was nothing but a shit show left behind.  I'm not saying that's you, but unless you have the simplest of affairs (one wife, younger kids, not a ton of assets/liabilities or property) it's probably a good thing to make a priority.

If this forum had a like key, I'd be liking this post.  My parents' finances were a shit show and it took forever to get through probate and deal with basic things after they died without a will or a living trust.

We made a living trust for our kids about 5 years ago.  I feel so much better knowing that one of our final gifts to them will be having that document in their hands. 

[Cool Chris]

Kattelox, that makes more sense when you spell it all out like that.

Stadler, Not sure how well batting her eyes would work on a phone call

And yes, it is #1 on our 'things to do as a grown up' list. We do have 1 marriage, 2 kids (ours), 1 house, no debts other than mortgage, so it should be straight-forward. She is a trustee on some tree farms that we signed a pre-nup on before we got married, but that's it.

[Stadler]

Kattelox, that makes more sense when you spell it all out like that.

Stadler, Not sure how well batting her eyes would work on a phone call

And yes, it is #1 on our 'things to do as a grown up' list. We do have 1 marriage, 2 kids (ours), 1 house, no debts other than mortgage, so it should be straight-forward. She is a trustee on some tree farms that we signed a pre-nup on before we got married, but that's it.

I'm sorry, it's rude to laugh I know, but I snorted up my water when I read that.  It just was so unexpected, like a line out of a Frank Zappa song.

[pg1067]

I don't know if it is fair to expect people to know the specific details of their auto insurance at the drop of a hat. Most people will go years if not their whole lives without an auto incident, so other than paying their insurance bill they don't need to know what cover age they have, aside from deciding it is sufficient when they initially sign up.

Speaking only for myself, there's a big distinction between knowing the BASICS of the coverage you have and knowing the details of policy exclusions and exceptions.

For example, all but a couple states require liability coverage, and I think most folks understand that there are three aspects to that:  the amount that the policy will pay for injuries to a single person, the amount the policy will pay for all injuries occurring in a single incident, and the amount the policy will pay for property damage (e.g., $100k/$300k/$100k).  Most folks probably don't know that one of the biggest benefits of liabiltiy coverage is that it will pay for an attorney to defend you if you get sued as a result of a covered incident.  What baffles me is that a lot of folks who only have minimum liability coverage don't seem to understand that liability coverage doesn't do squat for you in terms of your own car or if someone else is at fault.

I don't think it's too much to expect folks to know whether they only have liability or whether they also have comprehensive and collision coverage.  You should also know if you have uninsured/underinsured motorist coverage.  Same with rental car coverage (something everyone should have, by the way, because it's really cheap).  On the other hand, I would never expect the average person to know the details of policy exclusions and exceptions (although you can bet that any insurance adjuster you deal with will know about them).


As far as all the probate stuff, I had my mother and two sisters die in the span of 21 months in 2007-09.  Each of them had a very different situation.  One sister had a full estate plan (trust, will, etc.).  My mother had a will only.  My other sister had no estate planning.  Each had what was needed for reasonably smooth administration based on assets and dependent status.  In other words, not everyone really needs a will, and definitely not everyone needs estate planning beyond a will.  And all the stuff about how, "IF YOU DON'T HAVE A WILL, THE STATE DECIDES WHO GETS YOUR STUFF WHEN YOU DIE!!" is nothing but panic-mongering IMO.  The best thing anyone can do is consult with a probate attorney for a review of his/her situation so as to make an informed decision.

[hunnus2000]

If this forum had a like key, I'd be liking this post.  My parents' finances were a shit show and it took forever to get through probate and deal with basic things after they died without a will or a living trust.

We made a living trust for our kids about 5 years ago.  I feel so much better knowing that one of our final gifts to them will be having that document in their hands.

My mom and dad are both gone but we got their assets in to a living trust many years ago. We had also sold their house and put that into the living trust so when dad died in 2018, all that was left to do is distribute 3 ways the assets of the estate. Easy, peezy

Now what irritates me is that my in-laws don't think a living trust is necessary. I can only recommend because it's not my place to push back but it still pisses me off.

[jingle.boy]

My view only, but I can't comprehend why anyone with dependants wouldn't have a will.  IMO, it's as mandatory as life insurance.  Death is guaranteed.  As a parent, I feel it's my responsibility to make life as simple as possible for my children after I pass.  In the terrible scenario that mom/dad are in a car accident, one/both killed, or in ICU... and god forbid one of the kids as well

Who makes medical decisions?  ie, Power of personal care
Who takes care of the surviving dependents?
Who controls your assets?
When kids are minors, who has guardianship?
Who becomes the beneficiary to insurance policies?

Those are just the obvious questions.  There's surely dozens of other issues that a will encompasses.

It's the best $500 investment any parent can make.

Just my $.02.

[pg1067]

My view only, but I can't comprehend why anyone with dependants wouldn't have a will.  IMO, it's as mandatory as life insurance.  Death is guaranteed.  As a parent, I feel it's my responsibility to make life as simple as possible for my children after I pass.  In the terrible scenario that mom/dad are in a car accident, one/both killed, or in ICU... and god forbid one of the kids as well

Who makes medical decisions?  ie, Power of personal care
Who takes care of the surviving dependents?
Who controls your assets?
When kids are minors, who has guardianship?
Who becomes the beneficiary to insurance policies?

Those are just the obvious questions.  There's surely dozens of other issues that a will encompasses.

It's the best $500 investment any parent can make.

Just my $.02.

In the U.S., most of those things are not addressed in a will (I haven't a clue about Canada).

Who makes medical decisions?  You need a power of attorney for healthcare.
Who takes care of surviving dependents/guardian for kids?  You can express a preference in a will or other document, but this is a decision that's ultimately up to the court.
Who controls assets?  That's what a will is for.
Insurance policies:  Life insurance proceeds are not part of one's probate estate.  Ideally, a life insurance policy should designate a primary beneficiary and one or more secondary beneficiaries.  In the case of a married couple, the spouse is typically (and, in a lot of states, must be under most circumstances) the primary beneficiary.  It is possible for the insurance proceeds to find their way into the probate estate, but that's usually because of a mistake (although it's sometimes intentional).

I definitely agree that the estate planning review and preparation of whatever documents are appropriate is a good investment (particularly for those with kids).

[KevShmev]

My view only, but I can't comprehend why anyone with dependants wouldn't have a will.  IMO, it's as mandatory as life insurance.  Death is guaranteed.  As a parent, I feel it's my responsibility to make life as simple as possible for my children after I pass.  In the terrible scenario that mom/dad are in a car accident, one/both killed, or in ICU... and god forbid one of the kids as well

Who makes medical decisions?  ie, Power of personal care
Who takes care of the surviving dependents?
Who controls your assets?
When kids are minors, who has guardianship?
Who becomes the beneficiary to insurance policies?

Those are just the obvious questions.  There's surely dozens of other issues that a will encompasses.

It's the best $500 investment any parent can make.

Just my $.02.

 

[jingle.boy]

Wow, I’m amazed that courts decide on guardianship in the event of both parents dying. And same with insurance policies. If mrs.jingle is my beneficiary, and we’re both killed in an accident, do the proceeds of the policy not fall to the estate?  And without a will, there is no defined executor to decide how the estate is handled.

No matter the details, the likelihood of shit being a mess without a will is very high. That is if you care how your assets and liabilities are handled.

[chknptpie]

I don't know if its different in Canada and Adam and I went to an event with The Conversation Project and found it pretty awesome. They talk about picking medical power of attorney and probably best its not your partner since they may not be in the right mind if something tragic has happened. And that a Will is not always enough to cover what you may need.
https://theconversationproject.org/

[Stadler]

Wow, I’m amazed that courts decide on guardianship in the event of both parents dying. And same with insurance policies. If mrs.jingle is my beneficiary, and we’re both killed in an accident, do the proceeds of the policy not fall to the estate?  And without a will, there is no defined executor to decide how the estate is handled.

No matter the details, the likelihood of shit being a mess without a will is very high. That is if you care how your assets and liabilities are handled.

Chad, this is an important point:   insurance policies (and some investment accounts!) have BENEFICIARIES.   If you're the one that dies, you're not the beneficiary, so technically it's not your money (or your asset) to allocate via will.  Of the 100 stories I mentioned above, a good portion are wives (or husbands) or, more likely "new" girlfriend/boyfriend/partner after a divorce thinking "I get all this" but realizing that the deceased never changed the beneficiary forms on their insurance policies and it goes back to the ex-partner.  Or vice versa (but less frequently), the ex had an agreement that there would be insurance proceeds for the kids, but the deceased changed the beneficiary to be the new partner. 

That's not to say that beneficiary designations can't or don't follow the will more or less, but it's an extra step, and if people aren't completing wills (or things change) it's got to be a conscious, deliberate act to change the beneficiary forms as well.  (I have life insurance through my company and they require me to review and initial each renewal year, so that's good, but my wife has had to force the court to get her ex to periodically document the beneficiaries for the policy he's required to carry per the divorce agreement).   

Gap in my knowledge:  whether you can name the estate or a trust as beneficiary.  That I don't know (though my gut says it depends on the state). 

[jingle.boy]

I get that completely Bill, but that wasn't the point of my comment. My understanding is that, in the situation that the beneficiary dies simultaneously, the proceeds do go the estate (at least, I believe that's how things work here).  It isn't a fat/happy scenario for the Insurance company ... "wahoo... no payout to make!!", or the investment assets.  But without a Will and thus executor of the estate, the challenges that surviving family members have to go thru to get access to those (and other assets) can be a shit-show.  Couple that with the surviving family members might be minors ...well, it's a shit-show that need not exist. 

Anyone with assets or liabilities and dependants should have a will.  It's just that simple - in my view.

[Stadler]

I get that completely Bill, but that wasn't the point of my comment. My understanding is that, in the situation that the beneficiary dies simultaneously, the proceeds do go the estate (at least, I believe that's how things work here).  It isn't a fat/happy scenario for the Insurance company ... "wahoo... no payout to make!!", or the investment assets.  But without a Will and thus executor of the estate, the challenges that surviving family members have to go thru to get access to those (and other assets) can be a shit-show.  Couple that with the surviving family members might be minors ...well, it's a shit-show that need not exist. 

Anyone with assets or liabilities and dependants should have a will.  It's just that simple - in my view.

Sorry!  I totally misunderstood, and that's on me.

Here, it's state by state. Most states have laws that govern, among other things, simultaneous death.  If there's a contingent beneficiary, it goes to them.  If not, it's commonly handled like you lay out; if it's not clear who died first, it's assumed the holder outlived the beneficiary and it goes to the primary's estate.  If there is some evidence that the beneficiary outlived the primary, it goes to the beneficary's estate. 

This is why my wife and I never drive in the same car or fly on the same plane.  (I'm kidding.)

[lordxizor]

This is why my wife and I never drive in the same car or fly on the same plane.  (I'm kidding.)

I literally know of some couples that won't fly on the same plane just in case it crashes so they both won't die. These are friends of friends, so I don't say anything. But I always want to say "So, you drove to the airport separately too, right? Because statistically you're 1000's of times more likely to die in the car than on the plane."

[pg1067]

Wow, I’m amazed that courts decide on guardianship in the event of both parents dying. And same with insurance policies. If mrs.jingle is my beneficiary, and we’re both killed in an accident, do the proceeds of the policy not fall to the estate?

Again, I'll start with the caveat that I don't know if or how Canada is different than the U.S., and all of my responses are based on general U.S. law (if there's variation from state to state, I'll say so).

As far as guardianship, if both parents die and both have expressed a preference for TAC to be their children's guardian, then there's almost no way that TAC won't be appointed (unless someone steps up and shows that appointing TAC wouldn't be in the kids' best interests, which is pretty rare).

As far as life insurance, if H designates W as beneficiary and both H and W are killed in the same accident, the first step will be to see if a secondary beneficiary is designated.  If a secondary beneficiary is designated, then he/she will get the money outside of probate.  Only if there is no living beneficiary (or unless the insured has designated the estate as the beneficiary) will the proceeds go to the estate and be administered according to the terms of the will or the intestate succession law.

[Stadler]

Wow, I’m amazed that courts decide on guardianship in the event of both parents dying. And same with insurance policies. If mrs.jingle is my beneficiary, and we’re both killed in an accident, do the proceeds of the policy not fall to the estate?

Again, I'll start with the caveat that I don't know if or how Canada is different than the U.S., and all of my responses are based on general U.S. law (if there's variation from state to state, I'll say so).

As far as guardianship, if both parents die and both have expressed a preference for TAC to be their children's guardian, then there's almost no way that TAC won't be appointed (unless someone steps up and shows that appointing TAC wouldn't be in the kids' best interests, which is pretty rare).

As far as life insurance, if H designates W as beneficiary and both H and W are killed in the same accident, the first step will be to see if a secondary beneficiary is designated.  If a secondary beneficiary is designated, then he/she will get the money outside of probate.  Only if there is no living beneficiary (or unless the insured has designated the estate as the beneficiary) will the proceeds go to the estate and be administered according to the terms of the will or the intestate succession law.

It is TAC, though.