Author Topic: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.  (Read 173114 times)

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #980 on: September 16, 2020, 01:02:27 PM »
For me, the story is...not very compelling.  That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.

JP's not really that great of a lyricist and it's why, I feel, he went to the lengths he did in trying to convey the story.

If you want to get into the story, I recommend the book.

I applaud JP for bringing us this story. It's one that needs to be done in a theater show with an orchestra, choir and different vocalists to really have that full effect. And one I really hope he gets to do one day. And why I feel it should've been released as John Petrucci presents The Astonishing performed by Dream Theater.
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Offline pg1067

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #981 on: September 16, 2020, 01:24:06 PM »
For me, the story is...not very compelling.  That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.

How do you mean?  I'd never heard that before.
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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #982 on: September 16, 2020, 02:14:02 PM »
I think they did such a great job of building up the album, but they dropped the ball after its release. I remember they made a website about which faction you were, sent out cryptic message/emails, etc. and they should've hired someone to do more in that vein to continue through the life-cycle of the album.

I haven't listened to it in awhile, but that's mainly because I've been exploring a lot of other stuff. I'd easily rank it in my top 5 favorite DT albums and wish more bands that far into their career would try something so ambitious. The fact that it's so heavily disliked makes me actually appreciate it more. Plus, I just think the music absolutely kicks ass and I can ignore the story-line so that's not any sort of detractor of my enjoyment.

Offline Trav86

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #983 on: September 16, 2020, 05:04:12 PM »
I still give TA a listen at least once a month. I still think it's DT's best album.

Completely agree! I gave FII a spin the other day and I found it hard to get through and I really like the songs. I don't think people understand or appreciate what it takes to write an Opera.

Hold on a second...are you suggesting that those of us who don't think highly of TA lack an understanding and appreciation of the effort they put into writing and producing it?  Can't one have an appreciation and understanding but not enjoy it?  I thoroughly understand the effort that JP and JR undoubtedly put into writing TA and that the band put into producing it.  But I don't enjoy it.  It's as simple as that.

Yeah - pretty much.

But I don't mean that in a denigrating way. I actually grew up in a period where musicals and operas were the theme of the day. Did you?

For example, with Hamilton, we've actually seen a renaissance in operatic activity but with rap music.  TA has some exceptional moments that make this the very definition of what it means to be Dream Theater. Frankly, if you have an appreciation for something, you're enjoying it at SOME level. It's as complicated as that.

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Offline Dedalus

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #984 on: September 17, 2020, 12:23:15 AM »
I guess JP could spend the rest of his career recording boring albums like Terminal Velocity and be successful (if he always could have MP on drums, that's for sure). But luckily he is restless enough to do multiple things, including a "DT-esque musical."

That is why I like him.   :biggrin:

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #985 on: September 17, 2020, 07:44:47 AM »
For me, the story is...not very compelling.  That's probably because it's grounded in reality and I always felt there was a weird disconnect between the extremely serious sounding music and the lyrics, which I can only describe as...mostly not too great.

JP's not really that great of a lyricist and it's why, I feel, he went to the lengths he did in trying to convey the story.

If you want to get into the story, I recommend the book.

I applaud JP for bringing us this story. It's one that needs to be done in a theater show with an orchestra, choir and different vocalists to really have that full effect. And one I really hope he gets to do one day. And why I feel it should've been released as John Petrucci presents The Astonishing performed by Dream Theater.


Oh, I definitely applaud Petrucci as well for branching out like this and trying something a little different.  I have nothing but huge respect for all of them, but especially for John because I know what it's like to put yourself out there like this and it's not easy.  And criticism can be hard to deal with, hard not to take personally.  Which is why I always try to avoid using words and phrases like "it sucks" because honestly, I don't think Dream Theater have ever released anything that truly "sucked."  At least not in my opinion.


So, even though the story of this album is not something I'm able to connect with, and despite the fact that this is not the kind of music I expect or want from Dream Theater, I still purchased the CD and I'd do it again if I had a do-over because I know what kind of enormous effort goes into making something like this and I know the emotional toll putting it out there can take, but most of all, I want him -Petrucci- to continue.  I want Dream Theater to continue.  So I support pretty much whatever they do, even if I don't always particularly like it.  I respect the work.

Offline Lonk

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #986 on: September 17, 2020, 09:19:13 AM »
Just listened to the album while going through budget numbers (fun).

This album was in the middle of the pack for me (7-9 depending on my mood) and it still sits there. I think it is a good album. The one thing that pushes it down for me is the end of the story. Up until "The Walking Shadow", I thought it was interesting and well written. After that is when they lose it and I find it a little "cheese", for lack of a better word.

If SFAM would have ended with TSCO, it would be on the same boat of a good album with an uninteresting ending. But Finally Free gives it that plot twist at the end that elevates the album. I think that's what TA is missing, a strong ending to the story. Just my opinion.

Other than that, I think the music itself its great.
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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #987 on: September 17, 2020, 10:02:51 AM »
I don't mind the happy ending, I just feel that the pacing is a bit off and that both time and story wise, there's a lot of difference between disc 1 and disc 2.

The first album is filled to the brink defying the physical capacity of a CD and we have to go through a lot of story, the second disc is 20 minute shorter and concentrate to the detail on just the pivotal scene at the end.  I mean if you turn this into a Broadway production and have actors playing it out, Faythe lies in agony for TEN full minutes if you consider "real time" what happens between Darius stabbing her and Gabriel singing her back to life. Not that it's not uncommon in plays to have the action precipitate at the end, it's just that if you look at the pacing you notice the sharp contrast between the lenght of the two discs, and the speed of the action.
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Offline ThatOneGuy2112

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #988 on: September 17, 2020, 11:40:50 AM »
I can't even remember the last time I listened to the album in its entirety, but since the time if its release, I have not even been close to compelled to do so. For me this is definitely DT's worst album by a pretty decent margin. It's the perfect amalgamation of everything I disliked about the band. These same qualities are what others might like most about the band's music, and if that's your bag, then more power to you.

Also, I don't agree at all that in order to appreciate a work of art's efforts and ambitions you have to enjoy it. I'm sure most people have thought "I appreciate this work's significance, but it's not for me" at some point or another. I might not like TA, but that doesn't mean I don't understand that it must have been quite the undertaking for the band. Creating over two hours of new music is no easy feat. It was a risk in many regards that just didn't really pan out is all, at least not for me and for many others.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #989 on: September 17, 2020, 02:33:39 PM »
I guess JP could spend the rest of his career recording boring albums like Terminal Velocity and be successful (if he always could have MP on drums, that's for sure). But luckily he is restless enough to do multiple things, including a "DT-esque musical."

That is why I like him.   :biggrin:

Boring albums like TV? :rollin  I like JP because he's a great guy, phenomenal guitar player, songwriter and producer.  I don't particularly like TA that much, but that has nothing to do with his talents and who is or isn't playing drums.
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Offline emtee

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #990 on: September 17, 2020, 02:56:22 PM »
Never in my life have I tried so hard to like an album. I felt like I owed it to the band, after the effort that went into this. However, after too many attempts to count, I just can't ever make it past the first couple songs. Total respect for them though. And then DoT came out and blew me away.

Offline Dedalus

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #991 on: September 17, 2020, 10:42:07 PM »
I guess JP could spend the rest of his career recording boring albums like Terminal Velocity and be successful (if he always could have MP on drums, that's for sure). But luckily he is restless enough to do multiple things, including a "DT-esque musical."

That is why I like him.   :biggrin:

Boring albums like TV? :rollin  I like JP because he's a great guy, phenomenal guitar player, songwriter and producer.  I don't particularly like TA that much, but that has nothing to do with his talents and who is or isn't playing drums.

Yes. I don't like this type of record. I don't like Suspended Animation too.

Offline Dublagent66

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #992 on: September 18, 2020, 08:02:10 AM »
Bummer for you.  :loser:
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Offline bosk1

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #993 on: September 18, 2020, 09:12:28 AM »
The first album is filled to the brink defying the physical capacity of a CD and we have to go through a lot of story, the second disc is 20 minute shorter and concentrate to the detail on just the pivotal scene at the end.  I mean if you turn this into a Broadway production and have actors playing it out, Faythe lies in agony for TEN full minutes if you consider "real time" what happens between Darius stabbing her and Gabriel singing her back to life. Not that it's not uncommon in plays to have the action precipitate at the end, it's just that if you look at the pacing you notice the sharp contrast between the lenght of the two discs, and the speed of the action.

Yeah, I feel the same about the balance.  I have written in the past that, as much as I love the album, I wish we would have gotten something more about the clashes between the Empire and Ravenskill early in Act I, divide it into 3 acts, and then cut just a bit of what is currently Act II. 

But leaving the songs basically as-is, it would feel more balanced with just a slight rearrangement of tracks.  I think you get a more balanced feeling if you end Act I after The X Aspect, and move A New Beginning and The Road To Revolution to after Moment of Betrayal (and switch the order).  So, to be clear, it would go:

Act I:  same order, but ending with The X Aspect

Act II:
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
The Road To Revolution
A New Beginning
Heaven's Cove...

This preserves that AWESOME transition from 2285 to Moment of Betrayal, which is one of my favorite parts of the album.  And Road fits nicely in a thematic way right after Moment.  The musical flow of the first few songs after the "intermission" is really nice as well.  And I think concluding Act I with the two songs that deal with Arhys's conflict, and then picks that right up again in Act II with Moment.
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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #994 on: September 18, 2020, 09:18:40 AM »
In my head, the whole thing has three acts anyway. The first one ends with Three Days, whose ending has such a "we take a breath now, come back after the commercials" feel. The rest of the first disc is Act II and the second disc is Act III.
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Offline nattmorker

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #995 on: September 18, 2020, 10:44:40 AM »
In my head, the whole thing has three acts anyway. The first one ends with Three Days, whose ending has such a "we take a breath now, come back after the commercials" feel. The rest of the first disc is Act II and the second disc is Act III.

I totally agree! That's the way I've always thought about it.

Offline darkshade

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #996 on: September 18, 2020, 10:52:44 AM »
It's crazy to me that it's already been 10 years since MP left the band, yet, it feels like forever since The Astonishing came out. In a few months, it will be the 5 year anniversary of its release.

Offline hunnus2000

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #997 on: September 18, 2020, 04:26:16 PM »
It's crazy to me that it's already been 10 years since MP left the band, yet, it feels like forever since The Astonishing came out. In a few months, it will be the 5 year anniversary of its release.

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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #998 on: September 18, 2020, 08:17:07 PM »
In my head, the whole thing has three acts anyway. The first one ends with Three Days, whose ending has such a "we take a breath now, come back after the commercials" feel. The rest of the first disc is Act II and the second disc is Act III.

 :tup :tup :tup

That's the perfect way I would split it up if Act I were to be divided.

The first album is filled to the brink defying the physical capacity of a CD and we have to go through a lot of story, the second disc is 20 minute shorter and concentrate to the detail on just the pivotal scene at the end.  I mean if you turn this into a Broadway production and have actors playing it out, Faythe lies in agony for TEN full minutes if you consider "real time" what happens between Darius stabbing her and Gabriel singing her back to life. Not that it's not uncommon in plays to have the action precipitate at the end, it's just that if you look at the pacing you notice the sharp contrast between the lenght of the two discs, and the speed of the action.

Yeah, I feel the same about the balance.  I have written in the past that, as much as I love the album, I wish we would have gotten something more about the clashes between the Empire and Ravenskill early in Act I, divide it into 3 acts, and then cut just a bit of what is currently Act II. 

But leaving the songs basically as-is, it would feel more balanced with just a slight rearrangement of tracks.  I think you get a more balanced feeling if you end Act I after The X Aspect, and move A New Beginning and The Road To Revolution to after Moment of Betrayal (and switch the order).  So, to be clear, it would go:

Act I:  same order, but ending with The X Aspect

Act II:
2285 Entr'acte
Moment of Betrayal
The Road To Revolution
A New Beginning
Heaven's Cove...

This preserves that AWESOME transition from 2285 to Moment of Betrayal, which is one of my favorite parts of the album.  And Road fits nicely in a thematic way right after Moment.  The musical flow of the first few songs after the "intermission" is really nice as well.  And I think concluding Act I with the two songs that deal with Arhys's conflict, and then picks that right up again in Act II with Moment.

But that wouldn't work lyrically. And The Road to Revolution skips between 3 different scenes, and it's like a closer for each characters moment and place in the story. You have Faythe meeting with Gabriel in his hideout, she is letting him know her Father has agreed to meet with him first before the Three Days are up. Daryus leaves Arhys' home with Xander, while Arhys ponders the offer Daryus proposed. Nafaryus is left too to ponder the tough decision whether to actually speak with Gabriel or just capture the saviour. The ensemble of  "Open Eyes...Choice is Right" I see as both Arhys and Nafaryus speaking to the sky, or the higher power to help them decide the right solution.
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Offline hunnus2000

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #999 on: September 19, 2020, 08:58:49 AM »
I have been thinking about this for quite awhile and if I had one song to introduce someone totally unfamiliar with DT I would play them "My Last Farewell".

It's under 4 minutes and completely encapsulates all components of what makes DT and I think it is the quintessential DT song. But mainly because it's under 4 minutes......

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1000 on: September 19, 2020, 10:14:21 AM »
I have been thinking about this for quite awhile and if I had one song to introduce someone totally unfamiliar with DT I would play them "My Last Farewell".

It's under 4 minutes and completely encapsulates all components of what makes DT and I think it is the quintessential DT song. But mainly because it's under 4 minutes......

 :lol It actually does...

It has their calm soft piano vocal ballad style in the intro, then the rocking verse chorus which leads into the guitar/keyboard solos, then into the epic anthem, leading into the wacky crazy instrumental, ending with a showcase of JLB...
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Offline Lonk

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1001 on: September 19, 2020, 10:33:32 AM »
“One Last Time” might be better in my opinion
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1002 on: September 19, 2020, 10:34:54 AM »
“One Last Time” might be better in my opinion

But it doesn't have the wacky instrumental section...
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Offline ytserush

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1003 on: September 19, 2020, 02:33:17 PM »

Very flawed masterpiece (Lyrics still kill me) Probably haven't listened to it more than two or three times this year. Very much respect the attempt but the execution fell short.

Really wish there was a live album for it in any case.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1004 on: September 19, 2020, 03:29:16 PM »

Very flawed masterpiece (Lyrics still kill me) Probably haven't listened to it more than two or three times this year. Very much respect the attempt but the execution fell short.

Really wish there was a live album for it in any case.

The weird thing for me is, I can see how flawed it is, yet I can also see just how much potential is there in the concept.

It's also really important to understand, it's presented in the Opera/Musical style, and they continued that Opera style live by the way the shows were, presentation booklets, seated venues, no phones and videos. I've been to many Opera's at our local Opera House, The Santa Fe Opera and it's an entirely different type of musical experience and all those are essential things you expect at an Opera, and likely what JP intended.

All of that is also why He wanted to reveal the music live, and then we take away that live experience. I wish that would've happened because it would have been interesting to see the reactions of being presented a big Rock Opera live and only live. Then after the shows, have the studio version of the music we saw live, guarantee our reactions would be different. And one I am sure JP is upset about because it fits very well with the concept of the album.

In other words, the concept and everything is there, JP just did the best he could with what he had available.

And I am really surprised why there is no live album, but I do also see the reason as to why it there isn't one.
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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1005 on: September 20, 2020, 07:23:29 PM »
This is a top 5 DT album for me. Totally wonderful, and much more akin to the style of music I prefer and write these days. I've been leaning heavily towards the melodic/orchestral/cinematic so this album feels right at home with me. I don't mind the silly-ish lyrics and overall story arc, as the music really serves a broad emotional spectrum that makes it feel more complex than it really is.

I love the abundance of "ballads" (I hate the term but it's easily understood by all). I really feel I'm in that state of mind more often than in the heavy, proggy, virtuostic side of things (which I of course still enjoy every now and then but not as much as I used to). This album contains some of the most memorable melodic content DT has ever put out, and watching it live twice has really been a highlight in my whole DT journey. I know I'm very much alone with this opinion, but it feels really good to admit that one of DT's less conventional pieces of work is also one of my favorites.

Also, I agree that the whole thing is pretty tough to listen through in one run; but I've found that my enjoyment of the material is greatly augmented when picking a few songs off the album and just listening and enjoying. Every now and then I'll just go through either two discs and just let it run, and I always feel really good and close to the material.
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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1006 on: September 20, 2020, 08:25:45 PM »
Going on a long road trip in a week and was thinking this album will be heard whole for the first time in a long time. Ive always really liked it (besides maybe my first listen which it kind of felt flat being so dense and long) and I'm kind of excited.

Offline NoFred

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1007 on: September 21, 2020, 11:23:32 PM »
I’m still trying to crack this one, impossible to listen through in one going so I take 3 or 4 songs at a time. I didn’t see the performance live, and I think they should bring some of the songs out on future tours, not only to showcase them as good outside of the opera concept but also to mix in some shorter tracks on the set list.

Still partial to Gift of Music I was really happy to hear the band clearly again in terms of production. So I’ll give TA that it’s the best sounding of the last 10 years.

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1008 on: September 22, 2020, 05:31:15 AM »
NoFred, yeah, definitely break it off in chunks. And if it helps, make an abridged version.
I love the album as a whole, but it does get a bit long.
My abridged version is as good as any album.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2020, 05:48:57 AM by TAC »
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline silentmac6

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1009 on: September 22, 2020, 08:45:25 AM »
Same as NoFred, I find TA very daunting just to sit down and listen to. Maybe i should try the breaking it up into chunks method. There are good songs. I just can't remember how many, or where. I will certainly never say it's a bad album, but currently it's my least favourite DT, including WDADU.
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.
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Offline gzarruk

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1010 on: September 22, 2020, 09:55:10 AM »
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.

It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline Max Kuehnau

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1011 on: September 22, 2020, 10:25:14 AM »
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.


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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1012 on: September 22, 2020, 10:40:24 AM »
Makes me think of the old saying "You can please all of the people some of the time, and you can please some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

That said, I like a point that MP had stated in 2002: that they never want to forget their core sound, while still allowing for experimentation by adding different elements to newer songs. To some degree, I think they may have strayed a bit too far with TA, but also with the inclusion of some of the "harsh" vocals that were being added at the end of MP's tenure. Otherwise, I think they've largely done a good job of sticking to that thought process.
As a basic rule, if you hate it, you must solely blame Portnoy. If it's good, then you must downplay MP's contribution to the band as not being important anyway, or claim he's just lying. It's the DTF way.

Offline pg1067

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1013 on: September 22, 2020, 11:59:43 AM »
Same as NoFred, I find TA very daunting just to sit down and listen to. Maybe i should try the breaking it up into chunks method. There are good songs. I just can't remember how many, or where. I will certainly never say it's a bad album, but currently it's my least favourite DT, including WDADU.
However, around the time of release, weren't many people clamouring for the band to make an album that was different from the previous few...? That's certainly what we got and we cannot fault DT for doing something so different.

I wasn't posting here at that time, so I don't know what folks here might have been clamoring for.  Any clamoring I saw elsewhere had more to do with production than style.  For me personally, DT has always been sufficiently prolific that I've never gotten to the point of clamoring.

At the end of the day, I have no problem whatsoever with DT trying something new/unusual.  Indeed, I appreciate that they went to a monumental effort to write something like TA.  However, it just hasn't clicked with me.  I don't hate it, and I don't think it was a mistake or misstep.  Just hasn't clicked.  Simple as that.


That said, I like a point that MP had stated in 2002: that they never want to forget their core sound, while still allowing for experimentation by adding different elements to newer songs. To some degree, I think they may have strayed a bit too far with TA, but also with the inclusion of some of the "harsh" vocals that were being added at the end of MP's tenure. Otherwise, I think they've largely done a good job of sticking to that thought process.

I don't know that I'd agree that TA was straying from the core sound, but I'd otherwise agree with all of this.
"There's a bass solo in a song called Metropolis where I do a bass solo."  John Myung

Online MirrorMask

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On.
« Reply #1014 on: September 22, 2020, 12:00:32 PM »
I don't think they went too far with The Astonishing. I mean, sure, it's a rock opera never done before by them, it has short and mellow songs, but it's still 101% Dream Theater. Not even on my first listening I thought stuff like "what? what is this? if it wasn't for James' voice I would suspect they sold me the wrong disc at the store".

Judas Priest's Nostradamus was WAY FARTHER than JP's usual sound than The Astonishing. It's just DT's version of a rock opera, but it's still DT, at least to me. I can still recognize, aside from the obvious aspect of James' voice, Petrucci and Rudess' styles.
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