- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.

[TheLordOfTheStrings]

LOVE The X Aspect.  That 4 song run of Ravenskill, Chosen, A Tempting Offer, The X Aspect just slays me.

I'll take it and raise you a five song run adding A Life Left Behind. 

[Samsara]

I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.

I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.

I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.

[TAC]

So Promised Land?

 
 

[Darkstarshades]

I'm glad they took that risk instead of launching another DT12 like they're seemingly going to do now 

[Samsara]

So Promised Land?

 
 

As you know, from being scolded many times, 😄 Promised Land wasnt a left hand turn for Queensryche. You could tell it was coming based on songs like Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening, etc. It wqs a very natural evolutionary path for QR. Where they made that left turn was Hear in the Now Frontier. And being dead serious, that album was nowhere near a drastic turn in comparison to The Astonishing. HITNF was also a LOT easier to listen to than TA.

[Darkstarshades]

So Promised Land?

 
 

As you know, from being scolded many times, 😄 Promised Land wasnt a left hand turn for Queensryche. You could tell it was coming based on songs like Silent Lucidity, Anybody Listening, etc. It wqs a very natural evolutionary path for QR. Where they made that left turn was Hear in the Now Frontier. And being dead serious, that album was nowhere near a drastic turn in comparison to The Astonishing. HITNF was also a LOT easier to listen to than TA.

Jeez, it had never crossed my mind that TA was a drastic turn.
Personally, Images & Words - Awake is a more drastic turn than DT12-TA

[MirrorMask]

I don't think it's a drastic change either. I get it that it's different, but it's just Dream Theater doing a rock opera kind of album. I still recognize all the trademarks of DT, when I heard the album even for the first time I never for a moment thought "Wow, if it wasn't for James singing, I couldn't even recognize this is DT". It's still Dream Theater doing a rock opera, just like Train of Thought was clearly and obviously Dream Theater doing a heavy album.

[cramx3]

The only drastic change are the track lengths, the music sounds just like DT to me.

[mikeyd23]

The only drastic change are the track lengths, the music sounds just like DT to me.

Overall, I agree, I'd add the lyrics being different too. Beyond the track lengths and some of the lyrics, it's pretty much a DT sounding album on the "softer side" of the spectrum.

[Samsara]

re: drastic turn

It's really interesting that you guys feel differently. I guess the perspective I come at it from is this:

To me, most bands who have maintained their core writing team have this songwriting evolution that follows a logical path. TAC mentioned Queensryche. All of Queensryche's stuff really went (in hindsight) in a predictable arc from the EP through HITNF, when that original band was together. For Dream Theater, given that Kev Mo, then Derek, then Jordan, were JP's musical writing partners, they don't necessarily follow that same path. Only really starting with Scenes from a Memory and moving onward. And from that point, if you take Scenes as DT's "debut," I don't see any hints in their material that show some sort of move toward a Broadway-inspired album.

That's the way I was coming at it. However, in reading your replies, I started to think a little more about it, and I guess False Awakening Suite hints at it. Damn, you all just talked me out of it.  I guess the hints were there, looking back at DT self-titled (admittedly, I don't go back to that record enough).

In any event, I guess for me, on a personal level, that's sorta why I checked out of DT for awhile. They just haven't been going places that have really resonated with me, with The Astonishing being way out in left-field. I am an admirer of Broadway stuff. And that sort of lengthy store put to music. But the TA record and story just don't excite me at all.

So

[dparrott]

I'm glad they took that risk instead of launching another DT12 like they're seemingly going to do now 

This. "Progressive" is not rehashing Awake/FII/TOT over and over.

[bosk1]

And from that point, if you take Scenes as DT's "debut," I don't see any hints in their material that show some sort of move toward a Broadway-inspired album.

Really???  From Scenes?  Honestly, when listening to that album by itself, them doing a Broadway-inspired album doesn't feel surprising to me at all.  The only thing that is surprising is that it took them so long to get around to it.  Honestly, I remember thinking to myself during that album cycle that if ever a metal band was suited to do a Broadway musical-type album, it would be Dream Theater.  And I remember discussions along those lines on the boards back then as well.  I think it was in their DNA from VERY early on, and there are little hints of it in their music all throughout their career.

That said, I can see both sides of the "drastic turn" argument.  In many senses, the music and writing on TA was typical DT.  In many ways, it was not.  It just depends on what you emphasize and focus on.  And this is kind of true of a lot of bands that have the sort of longevity that DT has had, and the variety of influences and the musical chops to pull off different styles--every now and then, they will do something that is pretty "outside the box" of what fans might otherwise expect.  And, inevitably, when bands do that, you see mixed fan reaction.  Some embrace it.  Some don't.  That's just the way it is.

[Samsara]

bosk, read my latest reply toward the end. You're quoting something I've since shifted on.

[JediKnight1969]

I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.

I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.

I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.

THIS exactly. Couldn't agree more.

[lonestar]

I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.

I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.

I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.

This perfectly nails my feelings about the album. I totally respected the performances, and what they achieved, but it has so little of what DT is for me.

[Lupton]

Hi guys and gals. Sorry to butt in -- mostly lurk and don't post very often, but I enjoy reading everyone's thoughts. I saw this video today and it made me think of The Astonishing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkUq4sO4LQM

What do you think? Real life NOMACS? 

[TAC]

That's cool.

[Anguyen92]

Japan are really ahead of the curve when it comes to this sort of innovation.  Sadly, I don't think they are as ahead of the curve when it comes to wanting to monetize said innovation to international markets.

[jayvee3]

I tried to listen to TA again this morning. I got through most of disc 1, and had to turn it off.

I'm by no means slagging DT, or any fans that truly love the record. I know all music has its place, and people like what they like. But to me, I just can't wrap my head around the direction that the guys took Dream Theater with this record. It's a huge left-turn, and like many bands that get to a certain point creatively, there's a lot of risk associated with that. I think now, two years on, The Astonishing remains a point of contention between fans. Put me solidly in the camp that wishes John would have made this a solo record, or a joint Petrucci-Rudess effort.

I appreciate what JP was trying to achieve. But I think it pushed the box that is Dream Theater a bit beyond where it should have (for my personal tastes). The individual performances on the album should be celebrated (everyone performs outstanding, particularly The Pirate). But its a very difficult listen for this fan, given the band's sonic evolution from WDADU to self-titled.

I see this has been discussed in a few posts with Bosk and co. But is it really that big a left turn? I’ve been with the band from I&W and what I love is that there is always something to like on every album. And I feel no different with TA. While I enjoy the music far more than others, I essentially just see a concept album, a range of piano, guitar and vocal driven songs, some soaring ballads and solos, moments of heavyness - pretty much everything that makes Dream Theater. I’m totally fine if the music doesn’t resonate with you, and you have been great and very respectful in your opinions. But other than the rock opera format (which I agree from Bosk - seems they were made for and surprising it took this long to eventuate), I just don’t see how it’s drastically such a left turn.

I have a massive DT playlist in the car that plays on shuffle, and all my fave songs from TA really do blend in pretty seamlessly amongst the rest of the catalogue. Just my 2 cents. Peace

[Darkstarshades]

Heard it for the first time in quite a while and I can safely say this is still top 3 record.

Honestly climaxes like the end of The Path That Divides are among the greatest in DT history

[MirrorMask]

Honestly climaxes like the end of The Path That Divides are among the greatest in DT history

I remember hearing the album the first time, I was shocked just like seeing it happen in a movie.

I was there listening to the story unfold and then

"...But there's a cost with every fight
And Arhys' fight for hope
Cost him his very life"

...WAIT, WHAT?

[Dramatic music ending the song]

REALLY? HE'S DEAD? REALLY??

I was just shocked. Totally didn't see it coming.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The Path that Divides is 10/10. It’s just wonderful. They could’ve gotten better samples maybe for the swordfight itself (the screaming sounds like an Age of Empires sample) but otherwise it’s wonderful.

[CDrice]

The Path that Divides is 10/10. It’s just wonderful. They could’ve gotten better samples maybe for the swordfight itself (the screaming sounds like an Age of Empires sample) but otherwise it’s wonderful.

I agree! I love the way that the song flow from sections to sections in a way that feels more like their 20 minutes songs than their shorter songs. And I still get shivers everytime when the ''chorus'' hits. Just the way it builds and then opens up with an epic variation of When Your Time Has Come is just glorious.

[Lonk]

"You dare defy the prince?
Well you just threw your life away
Along with Xander's dreams
You chose the wrong man to betray"

Favorite lines from the song. I saw Mike the Music Snob once talking about this song. I thought his take on it was interesting. It's a long video about The Astonishing in general, but he starts talking about the story leading up to The Path that Divides at about 11:40. He starts the actual review of the song at about 13:30.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-S5yQxZPMo

[Mladen]

That song is just masterful.

[hefdaddy42]

The Path that Divides is 10/10. It’s just wonderful.

This guy knows what's up.

[Bentower]

It'll be interesting to see how the band treats The Astonishing going forward. For example, whether or not they'll include any surprises from it on future setlists. It's truly a shame that the backlash from some fans appeared to diminish their enthusiasm towards the album. There's quite a few songs on there that I think would work beautifully alongside the other material. Maybe hearing some of the less obvious songs in that context might help people appreciate them a bit more.

[MirrorMask]

Gut feeling is that it will be discarded because "it works better as a whole", then I'm all for some songs here and there in future setlist.

Heck, whatever remains of their carrer probably wouldn't be long enough to properly play the better song(s) changing each one for every future tour.

[JRuless]

It'll be interesting to see how the band treats The Astonishing going forward. For example, whether or not they'll include any surprises from it on future setlists. It's truly a shame that the backlash from some fans appeared to diminish their enthusiasm towards the album. There's quite a few songs on there that I think would work beautifully alongside the other material. Maybe hearing some of the less obvious songs in that context might help people appreciate them a bit more.

I still feel ashamed towards the band for the harsh opinions that were spread about TA. Read a lot of disrespectful things around in and outside the forum about this daring and ambitious chrystal. Despite I like visiting DTF.org (daily), from that album on I feel little disconnected to a major part of the fanbase TBH. But who cares.

[Architeuthis]

It's truly a shame that the backlash from some fans appeared to diminish their enthusiasm towards the album.
[/quote)


Exactly, they sure seemed to move on from it fast.  It almost seemed that the label pushed for a Images & Words and beyond tour to make a business recovery type move. I could be wrong, but that's kind of how I took the whole situation. Almost like they went into panic mode and said "quick we need to do this anniversary tour of our biggest selling album to restore the fanbase!"
 It is a shame that a lot of DT fans dissed TA so much,  it's really a brilliant piece of work. I hope they revisit it someday soon and perhaps make a one-off live production of it so it can be preserved on film for a very special bluray/dvd. That could be sooo epic!!!

[bosk1]

It almost seemed that the label pushed for a Images & Words and beyond tour to make a business recovery type move. I could be wrong, but that's kind of how I took the whole situation. Almost like they went into panic mode and said "quick we need to do this anniversary tour of our biggest selling album to restore the fanbase!"

I can assure you that that is not at all how it happened.  As I've said on here before, it was IN PART a reaction to the TA tour.  But not in the way you are describing.  Again, here is basically what happened:

Attendance numbers for the first U.S. leg were a bit lower than normal.  Not enough to raise concerns.  But they were a bit lower than recent tours.  The second U.S. leg was supposed to be relatively short and focus almost entirely on markets they didn't hit the first time around.  But the booking got screwed up.  That leg ended up repeating a bunch of markets, and ended up being longer than the band wanted.  They were not happy, but it was booked, so they honored it.  And as to be expected, there was an immediate, noticeable dropoff in attendance in many places because it was the second time they were playing the exact same show in the same markets.  Keep in mind that these were 'evening with' shows where they were exclusively playing The Astonishing and nothing else.  I think that even people who were pretty big fans of the album didn't necessarily want to see it again so soon with nothing else in the set list.  So that's why they decided to change it up a bit and slightly shorten the TA part and add in the three encore "hits."  I wouldn't call it a "panic" decision by any means.  But they recognized what was going on and wanted to give the fans some fan favorites to come see the band again.

By this time, they had already been planning on doing the I&WAB tour because I&W's 25th anniversary was coming up.  But partly as a reaction to the unintended oversaturation of TA due to it being mis-booked, I think that somewhat fed into some of the "fan favorite" choices for the non-I&W set.  They mainly just wanted to reward the fans by playing songs that they had observed got some of the best crowd reactions through the years.  But they were also aware that, again because of the mis-booking of the second leg of the TA tour, this would be the third time that fans in some markets would be seeing the band on a single tour cycle (even if it ended up being a pretty LONG tour cycle), so they wanted it to be something different and fun.

[Architeuthis]

Cool, thanks for clearing that up!  It sounds like they need to get better booking agents. Another reason I say that is because their booking agents tend to snub the PNW area. 
 Also, good on the band for honoring the repeated dates on that tour.  DT is a class act! 

[noxon]

And it's also worth noting that the "images and words and beyond" tour was supposed to just be that initial leg in Europe - because they were gonna cover a lot of the same areas they covered on The Astonishing tour, they chose the 25th anniversary tour aspect. But the 25th anniversary tour aspect was so sought after that the logical business decision was to extend it throughout the year. If their original plan had stuck, they would've recorded D/T in 2017 instead, with the release coming up in 2018.

DT has pretty much operated "on their own" since SFAM days - the labels has more or less been a distribution partner for their album, whereas the touring and that type of business has been dealt with by their own company (and the people they hire to do that job). Any elaborate stage setups are paid out of their own pocket. All the people working for DT at a DT show are employees/contractors of the DT company. The only way the label would figure into a tour decision would be that the band owed the label money, and they needed to tour to make money to pay the label back...

[bosk1]

^Yup, all that.

[Darkstarshades]

Amazingly nobody sought it in South America