- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.

[Ninjabait]

I totally get a Les Mis vibe from the whole thing. 

I went from loving it, to really really meh, to liking it more than meh.   

Believe it or not, I think my main problem with it is that it really feels like this story and this project WANTED to be even bigger, but as the “super ambitious project” starts getting this life of its own, you have two choices.   Cut all the fat and make it extremely concise and focused (which would inevitably draw comparisons to SFAM) or go all in and make it a full blown play.    Either one probably would have been slightly better than what we got.   Some of these songs and ideas seem unfinished somehow.   And so I think they should have either been finished, or been cut.    Make it a full blown 3 hours, or just one.   But what we got was halfway between, and I think it shows.   

It was a 3 hour idea that got “chickened out” on IMO. 

I still think it’s pretty good.  And if nothing else, it proves that Dream Theater is not spent as a creative force.   As long as John and the boys are willing to challenge themselves, it’s OK that it doesn’t go all the way sometimes.

I absolutely love the album, but yes I agree that the best way to present all this would be as a full Off-Broadway production. Especially with the details added in the novel adaptation, which really flesh out the story and build the world to an extent that the album just couldn't. A good portion of those could be represented in spoken scenes in between songs, which would get the best of both worlds with all the leitmotifs underscoring the action and the more fleshed out story.

Not everything could carry over and some changes would have to be made, obviously. You would need to split the story into three or four acts, because an 80 minute act of a musical is a bit long as it is and with added speaking/action scenes that could extend to two hours or 100min. And then there's Disc 2. You're looking at a 3.5-4 hour musical here with intermissions, which is CRAZY long. Plus the NOMACs are probably going to be a nightmare to pull-off in general, especially with what they're described as doing in the book. But despite all of that, I still think it would be best suited for a musical adaptation, even if it would be the Wagner of musicals.

Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.

[IDontNotDoThings]

snip

Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind

uh, so did I? 

My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?!

tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.

I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl

[MirrorMask]

I went the total opposite way in my edit version, I cut it off almost entirely 

[Ben_Jamin]

snip

Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind

uh, so did I? 

My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?!

tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.

I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl

Umm I think you're totally missing the point of the soft sections. They're the same for a reason, in Lord Nefaryus, its him revealing his family whom he loves, especially Faythe, his pride and joy. In SITS, its Gabriel revealing his instant love of Faythe.

[jammindude]

That whole section of the album is what gives me the most Les Miserables vibe. “One More Day” from LM specifically.

[bosk1]

Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.

Yup.  Nailed it.  The are dissonant and a-musical, which on the surface may seem to make them irrelevant, but they are anything but irrelevant, in context.  But I think a lot of people that miss that either don't fully understand the story, or don't much care for the story to begin with, so don't emotionally connect with what those tracks are trying to accomplish.  And that's fine. 

But that said, I do still somewhat feel that those tracks are a bit of a missed opportunity.  We need more in the story about what the NOMACS actually are, what they do, and why they are such a menace.  I mean, we're told a bit, in pretty cursory manner.  But we aren't given enough to actually feel it.  Kind of how we are told a bit about the people's suffering and their struggle in the revolution, but we don't really get enough details to feel the weight of it.  And I know that isn't the focus of the story, but I still feel like it need a bit of that, because it is important context for the actual focus on the individual struggles of the main characters.

snip

Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind

uh, so did I? 

My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?!

tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.

I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl

Umm I think you're totally missing the point of the soft sections. They're the same for a reason, in Lord Nefaryus, its him revealing his family whom he loves, especially Faythe, his pride and joy. In SITS, its Gabriel revealing his instant love of Faythe.

REALLY good point, and solid analysis.

[Ninjabait]

From what I've heard, the NOMACs in the novel are explained more, and they can do some pretty gnarly stuff. They are a threat and feared for good reason. The album is just 2.25 hours as it is so something had to be cut, which makes sense to me.

[Evai]

Interesting! I just thought they were 'noise machines'... I guess you were supposed to gather they were dangerous from lines like 'The noise machines lie still tonight; there's no time to lose'

[cramx3]

Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.

Great point.  There's definitely meaning for those tracks, but that doesn't make them enjoyable to listen to although I guess that's also part of the point.  Either way, I skip them, but found those tracks to be pretty cool live because that live bass would just rumble your insides and make you "feel" the NOMACs plus the live visuals.  That's not something you experience when listening on CD.

[bosk1]

Interesting! I just thought they were 'noise machines'... I guess you were supposed to gather they were dangerous from lines like 'The noise machines lie still tonight; there's no time to lose'

Yeah, I mean, they would spy and gather information at the least.  But I think I remember reading that it was implied that they would also use their noise as weapons, like to paralyze their victims or something like that. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Also, speaking of NOMACs and leitmotifs, I've noticed that a lot of people are complaining that they don't add anything to the album. The NOMAC tracks are used as a leitmotif or "musical calling card" for the Greater Northern Empire (and, usually, Daryus). They're placed around or within tracks that focus heavily on the empire being menacing towards Ravenskill, or on Daryus being villainous. Usually, when you hear NOMACs bad stuff is goin' down. It also gives a little weight to the Power Down at the end, which helps bring the story to a close. Honestly, I don't think The Astonishing without NOMAC tracks would work as well, because you lose that extra layer of story.

Great point.  There's definitely meaning for those tracks, but that doesn't make them enjoyable to listen to although I guess that's also part of the point.  Either way, I skip them, but found those tracks to be pretty cool live because that live bass would just rumble your insides and make you "feel" the NOMACs plus the live visuals.  That's not something you experience when listening on CD.

In a way, that is exactly how loud and Insane the NOMACS are. Especially if you read the book. I do hope they release it Digitally or in paperback. It has a lot of cool stuff that the Album just couldn't tell. It does expand the concept a lot more in detail.


edit: actually, the NOMACS would be way way way louder if they can hear them coming from afar.

[IDontNotDoThings]

snip

Wow, almost mine 80 minute edition, cool! The only difference is that I included the intro of A Life Left Behind

uh, so did I? 

My mistake! In fact the difference between our editions is that I included Lord Nafaryus and only the intro of a ALLB. How could you cut Lord Nafaryus?!

tbh I've never been much of a fan of that song. It just seems so unfocussed to me & it lacks the consistency that's so apparent in a lot of the other tracks. The transition to the soft section is one of the most forced moments on the entire album for me & it doesn't make any sense considering ASITS has almost the exact same breakdown at the end of that song, so Nafaryus just feels redundant to me & it didn't really stick out to me as a solid song all the way through. So yeah, that's why I cut it out.

I'm also pretty confused at how you made the ALLB intro on its own. That seems like it'd end really abruptl

Umm I think you're totally missing the point of the soft sections. They're the same for a reason, in Lord Nefaryus, its him revealing his family whom he loves, especially Faythe, his pride and joy. In SITS, its Gabriel revealing his instant love of Faythe.

I mean, yeah ok, so it has a narrative reason to be there. That doesn't change that it totally comes out of nowhere & doesn't fit the tone of the rest of the song at all, or that musically it's really similar to the quiet section in SITS (which by comparison, actually has some transition into it, & serves a purpose musically - to transition into WYTHC), which makes the album feel more redundant than it needs to be.

[sfam2112]

I do hope they release it Digitally or in paperback.

or audiobook read by JP

[Ninjabait]

Interesting! I just thought they were 'noise machines'... I guess you were supposed to gather they were dangerous from lines like 'The noise machines lie still tonight; there's no time to lose'

Yeah, I mean, they would spy and gather information at the least.  But I think I remember reading that it was implied that they would also use their noise as weapons, like to paralyze their victims or something like that.

Well, yes, they can do that and

[SPOILER]

apparently the NOMACs can trace a person's "fundamental frequency" or something like that, then produce a noise causing that person to vibrate in a certain way and literally then explode. It's really gory.

[/SPOILER]

I do hope they release it Digitally or in paperback.

or audiobook read by JP

Or JLB, changing his voice to fit all the characters. Or have all the band members pick a character and do their voice.

[sfam2112]

or audiobook read by JP

Or JLB, changing his voice to fit all the characters. Or have all the band members pick a character and do their voice.

JLB reading, chaging his voice for each character, did cross my mind 

Also, *obligatory "JM:......" joke*

[IDontNotDoThings]

or audiobook read by JP

Or JLB, changing his voice to fit all the characters. Or have all the band members pick a character and do their voice.

JLB reading, chaging his voice for each character, did cross my mind 

Also, *obligatory "JM:......" joke*

inb4 JM voices Evangeline 

[MirrorMask]

Myung would definitively play Evangeline 

Now I want to hear James speaking as Nefaryus 

[Ninjabait]

Featuring Mike Portnoy as Faythe

[IDontNotDoThings]

Omg I just found a nugget!

(The Gift Of Music)
My brother Gabriel
Is all the hope we need
Shining like a beacon in the night

(Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
Then like a glowing beacon in the dark
Hope came shining through

Ive listened to this album like 20 times & I never caught that before 

[bosk1]

Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff like that on the album.  Some is intentional.  But some isn't.  There was one such connection that was so well done that I was convinced that JP was a genius for having thought it up.  Then when I mentioned it to him, he was like "Oh, wow.  That's a cool connection you drew.  That was completely unintentional, but I wish I HAD thought of that when I was writing the lyrics." 

[Skeever]

I still really dislike it. But I think it's more interesting than DT12.

[IDontNotDoThings]

Okay, so I just played the album again (my edit), & all I can say is... wow... This album really never gets old. I felt every emotional moment hit like a ton of bricks & by the time The Path That Divides came on, I literally had chills. I'd always disregarded this album before because of its length & excess of filler tracks, but imo if you boil the album down to its finest moments, you've got a potential top-3 DT album on your hands (or at the very least top 5). The length still is an issue (heh), but I think this album holds some of DT's finest moments & hasn't aged a day since it came out. Amazing album. 

[Anxiety35]

The Path That Divides is my favorite song on The Astonishing. In terms of a stand alone song, it's one of the better things DT has done in recent albums.

[cramx3]

Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff like that on the album.  Some is intentional.  But some isn't.  There was one such connection that was so well done that I was convinced that JP was a genius for having thought it up.  Then when I mentioned it to him, he was like "Oh, wow.  That's a cool connection you drew.  That was completely unintentional, but I wish I HAD thought of that when I was writing the lyrics." 

  I've always wondered if some nuggets were unintentional

Omg I just found a nugget!

(The Gift Of Music)
My brother Gabriel
Is all the hope we need
Shining like a beacon in the night

(Hymn Of A Thousand Voices
Then like a glowing beacon in the dark
Hope came shining through

Ive listened to this album like 20 times & I never caught that before 

That is pretty cool, I don't think I ever picked up on that before 

[Zantera]

Thought it was mediocre on release, kinda same feelings now. I'll give them some credit for trying though, with the concept/story and everything around the album - you can tell they at least put some effort in, even if the music left me without any feelings.

[Evai]

I can imagine in a few years...

- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, TWO YEARS On. Wait no, THREE YEARS ON. Holy smokes, FIVE, FIVE YEARS ON. Umm SIX YEARS ON? I'm getting OLD. SEVEN YEARS ON, I'M COMING RAVENSKILL

[Ninjabait]

I had a thought about this album earlier today: it's really cool how the album uses styles and instrumentation to represent characters. The instrumentation thing is pretty common, but using musical styles to represent different characters and ideas is something that's definitely a more modern and recent development. Nafaryus being represented by "old" styles like late renaissance instrumental music (A New Beginning), dixieland (Three Days), and tango (Lord Nafaryus) is probably the most obvious example. But there's loads of others:

Faythe is typically associated with a wordless soprano voice solo (i.e. Act of Faythe, The Walking Shadow) and more "ethereal" musical elements (Ravenskill, The Walking Shadow)
Ahrys is typically linked to march rhythms and giant wordless "gospely" choruses. Generally big "military" or "American Civil War" kind of sounds. i.e. A Better Life, Brother, Can You Hear Me?, etc.
Ravenskill seems to have a light association with solo violin. i.e. Hymn of a Thousand Voices, A Better Life
Daryus (or possibly the GNE in general) is linked to the atonal electronic NOMAC tracks and the weirder synth moments (like the synth solos in Disc 2).
Gabriel seems to have a light association with acoustic guitars. It's not 1-1, of course, but a lot of the Gabriel-focused tracks have heavy use of acoustic guitar.

Also, the musical elements that represent Ahrys and Nafaryus seem to be closely related. They're typically represented by "older" styles of music and a heavy use of choruses. Ahrys/Gabriel (and Ravenskill) seems to be more musically rooted in folk elements, like the bagpipe in A Tempting Offer, marches, solo violins, acoustic instrumentation, and more gospel-oriented choruses. Nafaryus/Daryus (and the GNE), on the other hand, is rooted in the more "sophisticated" tangos, renaissance music, and dixieland. His choirs are also more "classical", and use words more often. And, in contrast to the heavy use of acoustic guitars and hammonds in Ravenskill tracks, the GNE ones focus more on electronic instrumentation. Also, both Ahrys and Nafaryus are frequently associated with trumpet fanfares.

idk how intentional all of this is, but it's really cool nonetheless!

[Ben_Jamin]

That is a neat observation.

[gzarruk]

That is a neat observation.

I agree! Just one of the many reasons this is one of my top 3 DT albums.

[Ninjabait]

Also, a little nugget for y'all:

The connection between 2285 Entr'acte and Moment of Betrayal is a reference to Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto. One of the big things Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto was known for (in addition to being an absolute BANGER) was connecting the first and second movements without pause with a sustained oboe note. 2285 Entr'acte and Moment of Betrayal are connected in the exact same way.

[Tick]

It didn't live up to what I had hoped it would be before having heard it. I had bought tickets for the tour before the album was released. But I enjoyed it then and I still enjoy it today.  I give it a 7 out of 10.

[Dublagent66]

2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! 

[Moor]

2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! 

SAME HERE!

[RodrigoAltaf]

2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! 

With boredom?

[nattmorker]

2+ years later and TA is still melting my face off! 

Same for me!!!