Author Topic: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.  (Read 173118 times)

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Online hefdaddy42

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1260 on: March 30, 2021, 08:47:01 AM »
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.
What

I'm sure some riffs or melodies were constructed before MP left. They were about to start work on DT11 when MP left.
Meaning, they hadn't started yet.

Generally, they compose in the studio.  With very rare exceptions, they don't bring previously written material to the studio, and there has never been any mention of them doing so with ADTOE.  So I have no idea where you are getting this idea from.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1261 on: March 30, 2021, 10:41:49 AM »
There's also the fact that ADToE is a pretty drastic shift from Black Clouds. A lot of the kind of thrashy influence that had been present through the likes of A Rite of Passage and Constant Motion was suddenly gone and there was more of a balance in focus between the instruments rather than the drum/guitar focused attack of Black Clouds. Even if they'd have been inspired by the odd jam here and there with MP in the band, that may have been replaced by better ideas when the actual organised sessions came around, because that's a much better environment for that sort of thing. Interestingly, that and TA are the only two albums where a drummer was not present during the main writing process. This would make DT15 the first time Mike Mangini has had writing input in the main process for two consecutive albums.

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1262 on: March 30, 2021, 01:38:55 PM »
I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.

This is not true at all, it was all written in the studio by the 4 of them (expect BTS, which was written and brought by JP very late into the process). Sure, they could've had a couple riffs and ideas from before, but they never write while on tour, they write specifically for each album, in the studio.
I even remember them sharing about how they focused a lot on melody and the core elements of what made DT DT.

And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.

While JP, JR, and JM are some of the best players in the business, and could play circles around any of us, and considering how quick they put complex, progressive rock music together, I doubt they come in with zero creative ideas when they begin work on a new album, and make everything up on the spot in front of everyone, then try to write the music and compose where certain parts will go. I'm not talking about improvising together and taking ideas from the jams, either, and putting things together, which is surely a way to write music. Just saying, there's no way a riff or a melody doesn't come to them when they're practicing, or even at any one time. You don't just tell your brain "OK, we're in the studio now, time to make up some new music" and if that is what they do, it could help explain their steady decline since before MP left.

Yea, this is true. They have said before that when they do sound checks they sometimes come up with riffs and will record them or write them down. So, they do develop some ideas outside the studio. It is probably more accurate to say that the vast majority of the writing happens in the studio rather than saying it all happens there. 

Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1263 on: March 30, 2021, 01:47:53 PM »
As I reflect on the Astonishing I still feel like the story really hurts the album. It is hard to say why. I think it is because the story feels like a contrived story rather than a real time or place that we are transported to with real characters with whom we can relate. I enjoy the album musically and really enjoyed seeing it live. However, it is more important to have a compelling story in a concept album because the ebb and flow of the music and the emotions associated with it that track the story are so much more important. It just doesn't work to have a seemly evil and wicked king and then say, "Oh, by the way, he is a really kind and loving family man."

Online hefdaddy42

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1264 on: March 30, 2021, 02:44:32 PM »
While JP, JR, and JM are some of the best players in the business, and could play circles around any of us, and considering how quick they put complex, progressive rock music together, I doubt they come in with zero creative ideas when they begin work on a new album, and make everything up on the spot in front of everyone, then try to write the music and compose where certain parts will go. I'm not talking about improvising together and taking ideas from the jams, either, and putting things together, which is surely a way to write music. Just saying, there's no way a riff or a melody doesn't come to them when they're practicing, or even at any one time. You don't just tell your brain "OK, we're in the studio now, time to make up some new music" and if that is what they do, it could help explain their steady decline since before MP left.
That is exactly what they do mostly.  Yes, they occasionally bring in riffs they came up with on tour, or something weird will happen like JP bringing in Wither by himself, but the overwhelming majority of what they have written since Jordan joined the band is together as a group in the studio. 

With Scenes From A Memory, they had the bare bones 20 or so minutes of the original Metropolis Pt. 2 demo from which they mined some parts, but all of the rest was written in the studio.

Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence was written in the studio.

Octavarium was written in the studio.

Systematic Chaos was written in the studio.

Black Clouds & Silver Linings was written in the studio.

With both Train of Thought and A Dramatic Turn of Events, they got together to do demos before going to the studio, like they used to do before Jordan joined the band.  But the process was still largely the same, just delayed a little.  This is well documented, so I'm not sure why you are having such trouble understanding or believing it.

With Dream Theater, they did bring in some parts that had been jammed on during the previous tour, but the composition of most of the music was still, you guessed it, done in the studio.

The Astonishing was a bit of an outlier, as JP and JR wrote all of the music together before convening the band in the studio to record.  But with Distance Over Time, they were back to writing their music in the studio.  And they have done that again with the album they are recording now.
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1265 on: March 30, 2021, 06:50:20 PM »
As I reflect on the Astonishing I still feel like the story really hurts the album. It is hard to say why. I think it is because the story feels like a contrived story rather than a real time or place that we are transported to with real characters with whom we can relate. I enjoy the album musically and really enjoyed seeing it live. However, it is more important to have a compelling story in a concept album because the ebb and flow of the music and the emotions associated with it that track the story are so much more important. It just doesn't work to have a seemly evil and wicked king and then say, "Oh, by the way, he is a really kind and loving family man."

It's why JP decided to make the book, it goes deeper into the world of The Astonishing.

It's like this...The Astonishing Album is like watching a Disney Movie...Condensed and Watered-Down to showcase the main part of the story, which is The Love of music between both Gabriel and Faythe helped save Ravenskill from being War Stricken by Nefaryus, he did give Ahrys only Three Days to hand over Gabriel. And what convinced Nefaryus to even consider meeting with Gabriel first, instead of outright Invading Ravenskill, was Arabelle revealing to Faythe that Nefaryus was also into the Music that she discovered on Bugs Music Player, the treasure and gift she discovered in the castle halls, because Bug is Nefaryus. So, Nefaryus loving his only Daughter decides to meet with Gabriel only for his Daughter.

The Live Show was like a Broadway Play, I would look to the The Lion King as an example, being how they made it more of a live spectacle. You have the visuals, and settings, to help tell that story. You had the narration intro that JP intended to include in the album. The as loud as possible, volume and sound of the NOMACS. And I think, they did this as best as they possibly could, and do wish it could be a full broadway production.

The Book, has all the action, the background of the characters, and even more of the War stuff that people wanted as well. Here, you get an insight into just how brutal and devastating the NOMACS truly are. You read about how Evangeline slipped away, and how Xander became the meaning to Ahrys life since then. It's pretty sad really...

So to truly get the full effect of how the NOMACS sounded just turn the volume up on all the NOMAC tracks, with a good lower end system as well. You know how when you go to a show and stand right next to the subwoofer speaker and it you can feel it...Imagine that x1000.


What made me get into the story a lot more was reading the website that was available, and they even had that in the Play Book they gave out at the shows.
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Offline Thoughtspart3

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1266 on: March 31, 2021, 11:12:02 AM »
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?

Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.

I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.

I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1267 on: March 31, 2021, 11:35:31 AM »
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?

Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.

I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.

I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.

This—I firmly oppose the idea that if I don't like a record, it's because I didn't do enough research or didn't invest enough time in 'understanding' it. Sometimes, and in my opinion, this is the case with 'The Astonishing,' a band just lays an egg, and all of the justification and explanation in the world doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't resonate with a large contingent of the fanbase.

That being said, it's not a total loss—there's a lot to like here: James' performance, the production, and handful of songs make this a record I often revisit, albeit, through a highly selective playlist ;D

Online hunnus2000

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1268 on: March 31, 2021, 01:20:26 PM »
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?

Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.

I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.

I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.

This—I firmly oppose the idea that if I don't like a record, it's because I didn't do enough research or didn't invest enough time in 'understanding' it. Sometimes, and in my opinion, this is the case with 'The Astonishing,' a band just lays an egg, and all of the justification and explanation in the world doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't resonate with a large contingent of the fanbase.

That being said, it's not a total loss—there's a lot to like here: James' performance, the production, and handful of songs make this a record I often revisit, albeit, through a highly selective playlist ;D

And I firmly oppose the idea that simply because it doesn't resonate with you, the band laid an egg. They did an excellent job telling a story, setting the mood, recurring musical themes and frankly not over-playing (wankery). So you don't really like the album - OK - I get it but you and others lose credibility by coming up with lame excuses as to why it's so bad or doesn't resonate. Simply saying you don't like it is enough........

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1269 on: March 31, 2021, 01:51:37 PM »
The Book, has all the action, the background of the characters, and even more of the War stuff that people wanted as well. Here, you get an insight into just how brutal and devastating the NOMACS truly are. You read about how Evangeline slipped away, and how Xander became the meaning to Ahrys life since then. It's pretty sad really...

Honestly, I think the main mistake the album made was in not focusing in more on that. It's very strange that they didn't as well, given that it would've fit so well with the band's style and would've cemented the album's dystopian setting a bit more. Instead of all the NOMAC tracks as well, why not have at least one cohesive song that actually details the chaos they've caused in a musical way? I guess they wanted to keep the story lean (which, given that it reaches 130 mins... is kind of understandable), but it's hard not to wonder what else they could've done with this concept in the context of the album itself.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1270 on: March 31, 2021, 06:02:44 PM »
The Book, has all the action, the background of the characters, and even more of the War stuff that people wanted as well. Here, you get an insight into just how brutal and devastating the NOMACS truly are. You read about how Evangeline slipped away, and how Xander became the meaning to Ahrys life since then. It's pretty sad really...

Honestly, I think the main mistake the album made was in not focusing in more on that. It's very strange that they didn't as well, given that it would've fit so well with the band's style and would've cemented the album's dystopian setting a bit more. Instead of all the NOMAC tracks as well, why not have at least one cohesive song that actually details the chaos they've caused in a musical way? I guess they wanted to keep the story lean (which, given that it reaches 130 mins... is kind of understandable), but it's hard not to wonder what else they could've done with this concept in the context of the album itself.

I agree. But that's where I get into the point of Expectations. That War part is not what the focus of the story is. The focus of the story is about Faythe and Gabriel. They are the main characters, and the story follows them. The story really starts when Faythe notices how the people of Ravenskill are treated, yet are still happy and singing songs. This is where Gabriel meets Faythe and falls in love with her. From here is where we follow Gabriel, Faythe and Ahrys as he is the head of the Ravenskill militia and the one confronting Nefaryus. It's why the Ultimatum by Daryus is a big one as Daryus has his own plan to gain his Father's loyalty as he sees himself as the forgotten child fighting for his Father's pride, and rightful heir to the throne.

Already you have all that in the first half of the album. The second album is about that decision, and the results of the confrontations and decisions made during the first half. The Road To Revolution is that summary of the first half and the choices that each character has to make.

Think of it as the War is happening, but the focus is not on the War but the battle. And this battle is between Nefaryus and Ahrys, while the two opposing sides meet due to the love of music. As Faythe was drawn into Gabriel's music.

The dystopian aspect of the story is Music being forgotten to where it's played by Noise Machines and the only music the people know are what those Noise Machines create. Nobody creates their own music. It's why Gabriel's ability to play music is a gift. This is established in The Gift of Music.


To me, I think what would have really helped with the story telling would have been to cast different vocalists, rather than having LaBrie be the one and only cast member. LaBrie did an excellent job with his vocals and performance, and I enjoy his vocals on the album. It's just with him being cast as all the characters, it's like watching a one man broadway show, the performer could be the best, but it doesn't really help portray and tell the story. People have to really use their imaginations.

With different vocalists, the mind doesn't have to do this and the different vocalists let's your mind focus on the music without having to distinguish between who is who by having to hone in on JLBs vocal techniques. You instead hear a female voice and know that's Faythe, you hear let's say a Raspy vocal and you know it's Daryus.

This alone, I feel, would've helped a lot regarding the storytelling.

And those covers with different vocalists shows exactly this.
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Offline Setlist Scotty

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1271 on: March 31, 2021, 08:16:53 PM »
To me, I think what would have really helped with the story telling would have been to cast different vocalists, rather than having LaBrie be the one and only cast member. LaBrie did an excellent job with his vocals and performance, and I enjoy his vocals on the album. It's just with him being cast as all the characters, it's like watching a one man broadway show, the performer could be the best, but it doesn't really help portray and tell the story. People have to really use their imaginations.

With different vocalists, the mind doesn't have to do this and the different vocalists let's your mind focus on the music without having to distinguish between who is who by having to hone in on JLBs vocal techniques. You instead hear a female voice and know that's Faythe, you hear let's say a Raspy vocal and you know it's Daryus.
I disagree and I'm grateful that they didn't have a bunch of guest vocalists. That would've taken it even a further step away from DT than it was and wouldn't have made much of a difference at all.If you want more variation, they could've applied some different vocal filters and effects to JL's vocals to help vary and differentiate the characters, besides the different tones and singing styles that he used.

Changing up the story and moving it away from being a pure rock opera, adding in other elements would've been better. Maybe taking an approach halfway between what TA ended up being and what SFaM is would have improved it, and more than likely it would've been far less divisive for the fanbase.
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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1272 on: March 31, 2021, 08:18:24 PM »

I disagree and I'm grateful that they didn't have a bunch of guest vocalists. That would've taken it even a further step away from DT than it was and wouldn't have made much of a difference at all.If you want more variation, they could've applied some different vocal filters and effects to JL's vocals to help vary and differentiate the characters, besides the different tones and singing styles that he used.


I agree. I've never understood the clamor guest vocalists.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
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Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1273 on: March 31, 2021, 09:10:53 PM »
To me, I think what would have really helped with the story telling would have been to cast different vocalists, rather than having LaBrie be the one and only cast member. LaBrie did an excellent job with his vocals and performance, and I enjoy his vocals on the album. It's just with him being cast as all the characters, it's like watching a one man broadway show, the performer could be the best, but it doesn't really help portray and tell the story. People have to really use their imaginations.

With different vocalists, the mind doesn't have to do this and the different vocalists let's your mind focus on the music without having to distinguish between who is who by having to hone in on JLBs vocal techniques. You instead hear a female voice and know that's Faythe, you hear let's say a Raspy vocal and you know it's Daryus.
I disagree and I'm grateful that they didn't have a bunch of guest vocalists. That would've taken it even a further step away from DT than it was and wouldn't have made much of a difference at all.If you want more variation, they could've applied some different vocal filters and effects to JL's vocals to help vary and differentiate the characters, besides the different tones and singing styles that he used.

Changing up the story and moving it away from being a pure rock opera, adding in other elements would've been better. Maybe taking an approach halfway between what TA ended up being and what SFaM is would have improved it, and more than likely it would've been far less divisive for the fanbase.

The funny thing is too...I like it being the Rock Opera. And why I joke that I might be the only one who really likes The Astonishing concept and story.

I get it also, that JP decided to do something entirely different and that is make the album itself like an actual Opera. The Linear Notes indicate this, and I like how in the Special Edition they included a Script of the lyrics, making look like an actual Opera Script that the performers use to practice with.

He took this concept to lean more towards that Opera side. Including the Set's and Where each place is set. It gives the setting of where the characters are, and what time of day. They Incorporated it even more with the way they did it Live. To make it even more like an Opera, they did the Phone thing, and it's actually what actual Operas require of you to do, they even go further and request you not leave your seat at all, and only for emergencies and to remain completely quiet.

I also am happy with what we got. Even though it could be way better, I am happy with what it ended up being. And am glad I got to experience the Live shows. I also do not mind that JLB sang all the parts as well, I actually enjoyed it. Especially live, considering how much Flak he gets about his live vocals.

I am also glad that JP decided to release it as a Dream Theater album and had the band play the parts. I am grateful they decided to take on this task, and they all did a great job, I think.

It's also why I do not consider The Astonishing as your typical Concept Album. It's a different type of album, that not many rock bands have done. And that is take the Opera approach to the Rock Opera concept. To Incorporate the aspects of being at and witnessing an Opera. The Live shows were as close to an Opera as you could get, while still keeping it as a Rock Concert.

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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1274 on: April 01, 2021, 04:05:59 AM »
I agree. But that's where I get into the point of Expectations. That War part is not what the focus of the story is. The focus of the story is about Faythe and Gabriel. They are the main characters, and the story follows them. The story really starts when Faythe notices how the people of Ravenskill are treated, yet are still happy and singing songs. This is where Gabriel meets Faythe and falls in love with her. From here is where we follow Gabriel, Faythe and Ahrys as he is the head of the Ravenskill militia and the one confronting Nefaryus. It's why the Ultimatum by Daryus is a big one as Daryus has his own plan to gain his Father's loyalty as he sees himself as the forgotten child fighting for his Father's pride, and rightful heir to the throne.

Already you have all that in the first half of the album. The second album is about that decision, and the results of the confrontations and decisions made during the first half. The Road To Revolution is that summary of the first half and the choices that each character has to make.

Think of it as the War is happening, but the focus is not on the War but the battle. And this battle is between Nefaryus and Ahrys, while the two opposing sides meet due to the love of music. As Faythe was drawn into Gabriel's music.

The dystopian aspect of the story is Music being forgotten to where it's played by Noise Machines and the only music the people know are what those Noise Machines create. Nobody creates their own music. It's why Gabriel's ability to play music is a gift. This is established in The Gift of Music.

The thing is, Les Miserables manages to balance an ongoing revolution with the more personal stories have and that's considered one of the best musicals out there. Hearing that JP was apparently inspired by Game of Thrones as well also seems very odd in how GoT is everything TA isn't. A big problem is that we're told that the people of Ravenskill live poorly... but we're only really told that and never shown it. Somewhat ironically, the problem lies in one of the more popular songs on the album, The Gift of Music. The song's entire purpose is to set the scene... for a 130 minute rock opera. We get basically no other tracks that describe the situation at large, because it immediately zooms in on a character to character basis. That's a huge burden on a pretty brisk 4 minute track. It's also a major example of the aformentioned habit of TA telling rather than showing. We're already sorta told what to think about the characters before they even say or do anything:

"Corruption, lust, and greed define the new nobility." okay but how
"Across the vast North Empire, most people struggle to survive." okay but how

Again, Les Mis doesn't have to say "we in pre-revolutionary France are poor" because the main character has to literally steal a loaf of bread to survive. The desperate actions of the characters themselves implies the setting without having to hold your hand. TA sorta tries to make up for this in Act of Faythe, where she shows concern for the plight of the people, but then swiftly goes on to detail her own backstory. Hell, even there she says "And they don’t seem to think this world’s so bad" which... why the hell would they be gearing up for a revolution then? Ahrys also again points out "For many years, I've seen our people starve and suffer. How many more will die before we stand and fight?" in A Better Life. This, as you can imagine, shows a similar issue to The Gift of Music, just from the perspective of a character this time. We've seen nobody die, starve or suffer. Apparently Evangeline died from a NOMAC, but this feels like an afterthought to make the world feel more visceral when in the actual album, all Ahrys says is "Peacefully, she slipped away". The opportunity to make this world feel far more dangerous was right there and JP blew it. So far, we haven't actually seen any agency from the people in this world either. As far as we're concerned, they're a cardboard cutout that amounts to an excuse for the main conflict, not as a group suffering under the heel of dystopian oppression. The only exception to their lack of agency being Hymn of a Thousand Voices, which is a beautiful track but uhh... feels a bit contrived as a plot point to say the least.

What if, instead of that, we got something from the perspective of the average citizen getting pummelled by one of the NOMACs as a kind of prologue piece, before even the overture? That's only the start of what'd be needed to properly set the tone, but it'd go a pretty long way to that end. As a side note, it's very odd that parts of technology appear to have gone backwards due to societal collapse... yet somehow we also have floating NOMACs.

Offline CDrice

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1275 on: April 01, 2021, 08:25:18 AM »
I agree that there should have been a bit more setup to the story in order to increase the immersion. I had no clue Evangeline died from the NOMAC. Just having that somewhere in the album would at least make the NOMAC feel more like a threat. Speaking of the NOMAC, I think would have been nice it's to have some of the NOMAC sounds integrated into some of the songs. I like what they did with their tracks using those electronic sounds that contrast with the rest of the music and I get that they act as a transition tracks at key moments of the story, but they feel a bit disconnected from the whole story. I think there was a hint of that towards the end of A Savior in the Square, but I think that's pretty much it. I wish they had found a way to do it a bit more.

Overall I feel like the album is just missing a bit of setup to be able to stand on it's own. Like I remembered being puzzled at "remember Bug". Luckily there was the website with more details of the story because I would still be thinking that Bug was Nafaryus' band from his younger days, back when he was a musician  :lol

Still a nice album though.

Online Mladen

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1276 on: April 01, 2021, 08:43:03 AM »
For a progressive rock album, The Astonishing tells a solid story. Of course it isn't as deep as The Wall, for example. But then again, The Wall would also pale in comparison to Game of Thrones. Rock concept albums are not written by George R.R. Martin or Victor Hugo. I feel it would be unfair to expect such a masterful storytelling from rock musicians.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1277 on: April 01, 2021, 09:04:30 AM »
For a progressive rock album, The Astonishing tells a solid story. Of course it isn't as deep as The Wall, for example. But then again, The Wall would also pale in comparison to Game of Thrones. Rock concept albums are not written by George R.R. Martin or Victor Hugo. I feel it would be unfair to expect such a masterful storytelling from rock musicians.

I mean, I think an album like Operation Mindcrime or The Wall manages it just fine. The key thing with those albums is that you feel the conflict within it. With The Wall, you see the living hell that Pink goes through that makes him the broken and spiteful man he becomes and in Operation Mindcrime, you feel the futility of Nikki as he struggles against a corrupt system through what happens to him and what he's desperate enough to do. The ambition doesn't have to be to the level of Game of Thrones to provide a good story, it just has to serve its setting and purpose. The Astonishing unfortunately aims too high, because there's a dissonance between its choice of premise (a dystopian future with an oppressive police state headed by noise machines) and what it ends up focusing on (a Romeo and Juliet esque love story with little reference to the outisde premise). They try and explain that with the exposition of The Gift of Music, but in hindsight it ends up feeling like an obligatory nod rather than genuinely organic worldbuilding. Sure, Queensryche arguably do this with Revolution Calling, but the difference is that it's spoken through Nikki's cynical, disillusioned tone and that a lot of what he says actually gets backed up by what happens later in the story. It's not like they have to necessarily explore every corner of the setting (though it is a bit sad that with the huge map they made, only about 3 locations ended up being used), but it should at least achieve what it sets out to do and it is possibile to do that with even a limited toolset.

Offline WilliamMunny

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1278 on: April 01, 2021, 09:09:48 AM »
Don't you think though, that the album should be able to stand on it's own and not need more explanation and character development to make the story compelling?

Also, I think more explanation doesn't change the story and character decisions, it just feels in more details. It is the story itself that I have problems with. I have never felt this way about Scenes. Scenes is able to create more of an emotional connection with the characters on one disc rather than too.

I love the fact that they did a concept album and hope they do another one. I just wonder if the quality of the story had been better if the reception from fans would have been better.

I do like the Nomacs and the audio on a good system. I feel though that on the album they seem like a wasted opportunity. They are really just interludes breaking up the segments of the story rather than part of the actual story. It would have been so much better to feel the characters dread of them and that every time they start to sing in secret and experience the joy of it that booming sound of the Nomacs grows and they start killing or capturing people.

This—I firmly oppose the idea that if I don't like a record, it's because I didn't do enough research or didn't invest enough time in 'understanding' it. Sometimes, and in my opinion, this is the case with 'The Astonishing,' a band just lays an egg, and all of the justification and explanation in the world doesn't change the fact that it just doesn't resonate with a large contingent of the fanbase.

That being said, it's not a total loss—there's a lot to like here: James' performance, the production, and handful of songs make this a record I often revisit, albeit, through a highly selective playlist ;D

And I firmly oppose the idea that simply because it doesn't resonate with you, the band laid an egg. They did an excellent job telling a story, setting the mood, recurring musical themes and frankly not over-playing (wankery). So you don't really like the album - OK - I get it but you and others lose credibility by coming up with lame excuses as to why it's so bad or doesn't resonate. Simply saying you don't like it is enough........

Hey man, relax. I bought the record, I listened to the record, I went to the tour—I'm entitled to call the album whatever I want. Just as you are entitled to defend it to your heart's content. This is a forum where fans pick nits and split hairs, but nothing I said was meant as a personal indictment against you. Calling my opinion a 'lame excuse' and calling out my credibility is kinda out of bounds in my book, but hey man, you do you ;D

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1279 on: April 01, 2021, 09:29:56 AM »
I agree. But that's where I get into the point of Expectations. That War part is not what the focus of the story is. The focus of the story is about Faythe and Gabriel. They are the main characters, and the story follows them. The story really starts when Faythe notices how the people of Ravenskill are treated, yet are still happy and singing songs. This is where Gabriel meets Faythe and falls in love with her. From here is where we follow Gabriel, Faythe and Ahrys as he is the head of the Ravenskill militia and the one confronting Nefaryus. It's why the Ultimatum by Daryus is a big one as Daryus has his own plan to gain his Father's loyalty as he sees himself as the forgotten child fighting for his Father's pride, and rightful heir to the throne.

Already you have all that in the first half of the album. The second album is about that decision, and the results of the confrontations and decisions made during the first half. The Road To Revolution is that summary of the first half and the choices that each character has to make.

Think of it as the War is happening, but the focus is not on the War but the battle. And this battle is between Nefaryus and Ahrys, while the two opposing sides meet due to the love of music. As Faythe was drawn into Gabriel's music.

The dystopian aspect of the story is Music being forgotten to where it's played by Noise Machines and the only music the people know are what those Noise Machines create. Nobody creates their own music. It's why Gabriel's ability to play music is a gift. This is established in The Gift of Music.

The thing is, Les Miserables manages to balance an ongoing revolution with the more personal stories have and that's considered one of the best musicals out there. Hearing that JP was apparently inspired by Game of Thrones as well also seems very odd in how GoT is everything TA isn't. A big problem is that we're told that the people of Ravenskill live poorly... but we're only really told that and never shown it. Somewhat ironically, the problem lies in one of the more popular songs on the album, The Gift of Music. The song's entire purpose is to set the scene... for a 130 minute rock opera. We get basically no other tracks that describe the situation at large, because it immediately zooms in on a character to character basis. That's a huge burden on a pretty brisk 4 minute track. It's also a major example of the aformentioned habit of TA telling rather than showing. We're already sorta told what to think about the characters before they even say or do anything:

"Corruption, lust, and greed define the new nobility." okay but how
"Across the vast North Empire, most people struggle to survive." okay but how

Again, Les Mis doesn't have to say "we in pre-revolutionary France are poor" because the main character has to literally steal a loaf of bread to survive. The desperate actions of the characters themselves implies the setting without having to hold your hand. TA sorta tries to make up for this in Act of Faythe, where she shows concern for the plight of the people, but then swiftly goes on to detail her own backstory. Hell, even there she says "And they don’t seem to think this world’s so bad" which... why the hell would they be gearing up for a revolution then? Ahrys also again points out "For many years, I've seen our people starve and suffer. How many more will die before we stand and fight?" in A Better Life. This, as you can imagine, shows a similar issue to The Gift of Music, just from the perspective of a character this time. We've seen nobody die, starve or suffer. Apparently Evangeline died from a NOMAC, but this feels like an afterthought to make the world feel more visceral when in the actual album, all Ahrys says is "Peacefully, she slipped away". The opportunity to make this world feel far more dangerous was right there and JP blew it. So far, we haven't actually seen any agency from the people in this world either. As far as we're concerned, they're a cardboard cutout that amounts to an excuse for the main conflict, not as a group suffering under the heel of dystopian oppression. The only exception to their lack of agency being Hymn of a Thousand Voices, which is a beautiful track but uhh... feels a bit contrived as a plot point to say the least.

What if, instead of that, we got something from the perspective of the average citizen getting pummelled by one of the NOMACs as a kind of prologue piece, before even the overture? That's only the start of what'd be needed to properly set the tone, but it'd go a pretty long way to that end. As a side note, it's very odd that parts of technology appear to have gone backwards due to societal collapse... yet somehow we also have floating NOMACs.

Again, because that isn't the main focus of the story. There is also a Narrator in the cast. He is the one singing "Corruption, Lust and Greed" he is the one describing the scenario to the listener. And introduces us to Ravenskill's secluded leader. Think of it as an opening scene in the movie where it's going across the land of The Great Northern Empire, and then it closes in on Ravenskill and pans into Ahrys' home, "where their secluded leader thrives" and then begins Ahrys' dialogue.

The narrator is breaking the Foruth Wall to tell us the situation at hand. If you've heard Hadestown it reminds me of that, how they use Hermes to break the fourth wall.

And why are you comparing it to a well known, well done play. JP isn't a playwriter, he is a musician. His lyrics are not that great either, so I did not expect poetic Shakespeare style lyrics and phrases in the dialogue.

That's why a lot of Musicals employ a lot of different people to write the script and write the music. HadesTown started out as a usual concept album then expanded into a broadway play that added a lot more to show the story instead of tell the story.

Also...I want to emphasize that The reason I know how Evangeline died is because it's in the book. I did not know how she died until I read that book and said, holy hell, those NOMACS are fatal.

But in the book, Evangeline does slip away peacefully, as in the way she ends up leaving the world at the time. To Ahrys, she slipped àway into death peacefully...Or as I read the lyrics again. He could be letting his people know that even though The NOMACS caused her death, she still went and slipped into the other world peacefully. A Better Life is Ahrys describing to us, and telling us the listener, why he fights for A Better Life.

The Book gives you all that information.

The album doesn't because that is not the main focus of the story. It's not about the great northern empire. It's about Gabriel and his gift of music, saving Ravenskill from being obliterated and to prevent war, as Faythe, the king's daughter, sees how these people, even in times of despair still seem happy and sing songs. Like how The Who's still sing even after The Grinch stole Christmas.


If you really want to know the story more and get all that information, I would highly suggest you read the book. It's all in there and actually the prelude begins with exactly what you described. It shows us how bad it is with The War going on and Ahrys being sneaky and planning the attack. Which they get discovered and then the NOMACS come and the soldiers of TGNE have things to prevent them from being affected by the NOMACS (I believe, I have to read it again, and I don't have the book with me to look and see).

For a progressive rock album, The Astonishing tells a solid story. Of course it isn't as deep as The Wall, for example. But then again, The Wall would also pale in comparison to Game of Thrones. Rock concept albums are not written by George R.R. Martin or Victor Hugo. I feel it would be unfair to expect such a masterful storytelling from rock musicians.


This. It's why I do not compare it to the many great Broadway shows or Operas. Because it isn't meant to be that bombastic. It's still meant to be a Rock Opera in an album format.

JP really wanted to have people experience The Astonishing first through the Live Shows. To receive that Playbook we got at the shows and immerse ourselves in what was presented in that Playbook, it had the descriptions that were on the website, and then take it in from there. Then buy the album.

I honestly would've like that a lot.

But, I am happy with what we got and with what JP was only capable of doing and taking on an immense story and concept such as this. Especially with him not being a good writer, or storyteller. He did great for what he had to work with. I knew this and did not expect him to write a top selling musical like Les Miserables.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 10:06:26 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1280 on: April 01, 2021, 10:12:53 AM »
Again, because that isn't the main focus of the story. There is also a Narrator in the cast. He is the one singing "Corruption, Lust and Greed" he is the one describing the scenario to the listener. And introduces us to Ravenskill's secluded leader. Think of it as an opening scene in the movie where it's going across the land of The Great Northern Empire, and then it closes in on Ravenskill and pans into Ahrys' home, "where their secluded leader thrives" and then begins Ahrys' dialogue.

I'm not saying it has to be the main focus, I'm saying that it would add more tension to the story to tell it in a more substantial way. I also don't have a problem with narrative exposition so long as it's not just an obligatory nod to certain elements of the setting. The way The Gift of Music sets the scene, I am expecting more than what ends up coming my way, plot wise.

And why are you comparing it to a well known, well done play. JP isn't a playwriter, he is a musician. His lyrics are not that great either, so I did not expect poetic Shakespeare style lyrics and phrases in the dialogue.

One thing I wonder when I see things like this is... why? Why should we arbitrarily hold prog metal musicians (a genre supposedly refined for its sophistication) to a lower standard than a playwriter? Just because JP is dabbling in an area (rock opera / musical) that he isn't familiar with, doesn't mean that he can't be judged by its usual standards. He's had time to refine his craft as a lyricist and has had enough experience with watching works of this nature to know what works and what doesn't work. Plus, nobody said that he couldn't go and get help to assist him in writing the best album he could if he wanted to. He worked on his own because it was his choice to, so this lowering of standards doesn't make much sense. Even then, other prog metal bands have presented excellent stories in their concept albums, so why not the band at the forefront of the genre?

Also...I want to emphasize that The reason I know how Evangeline died is because it's in the book. I did not know how she died until I read that book and said, holy hell, those NOMACS are fatal.

But I'm the book, Evangeline does slip away peacefully, as in the way she ends up leaving the world at the time. To Ahrys, she slipped àway into death peacefully...Or as I read the lyrics again. He could be letting his people know that even though The NOMACS caused her death, she still went and slipped into the other world peacefully. A Better Life is Ahrys describing to us, and telling us the listener, why he fights for A Better Life.

The Book gives you all that information.

The album doesn't because that is not the main focus of the story. It's not about the great northern empire. It's about Gabriel and his gift of music, saving Ravenskill from being obliterated and to prevent war, as Faythe, the king's daughter, sees how these people, even in times of despair still seem happy and sing songs. Like how The Who's still sing even after The Grinch stole Christmas.

This right here shows the exact problem. It not being the focus was their decision. I think many would agree that the main plot of a dystopian rock opera being a fairly sappy love story (I mean... they fall in love at first sight, come on, that's literally below Disney nowadays in terms of story sophistication) rather than something that more reflects the nature of that setting was the main misfire with it. Saying that it's okay that the album doesn't touch on this because the book does just reinforces the point that critics are trying to say. For all we know in the album itself, Evangeline just died of some random illness. Knowing that she died from the oppression of the state via the NOMACs changes the game and adds far more to the album's story, which is the important thing in this context, because we can guarantee that like 99% of TA's listeners haven't read a word of the book and likely won't in the future. I'm sure the book is good, but that doesn't change what the album itself is.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1281 on: April 01, 2021, 11:08:37 AM »
Again, because that isn't the main focus of the story. There is also a Narrator in the cast. He is the one singing "Corruption, Lust and Greed" he is the one describing the scenario to the listener. And introduces us to Ravenskill's secluded leader. Think of it as an opening scene in the movie where it's going across the land of The Great Northern Empire, and then it closes in on Ravenskill and pans into Ahrys' home, "where their secluded leader thrives" and then begins Ahrys' dialogue.

I'm not saying it has to be the main focus, I'm saying that it would add more tension to the story to tell it in a more substantial way. I also don't have a problem with narrative exposition so long as it's not just an obligatory nod to certain elements of the setting. The way The Gift of Music sets the scene, I am expecting more than what ends up coming my way, plot wise.

I hear you. It's not what you were expecting, and wanting from the story. To me, I did not expect that, as I was just going along and letting the story take me on the journey that JP wants to tell me. I wouldn't have minded if he did go more that route, but I myself, didn't expect that either. I was actually quite surprised they didn't go that route.


And why are you comparing it to a well known, well done play. JP isn't a playwriter, he is a musician. His lyrics are not that great either, so I did not expect poetic Shakespeare style lyrics and phrases in the dialogue.

One thing I wonder when I see things like this is... why? Why should we arbitrarily hold prog metal musicians (a genre supposedly refined for its sophistication) to a lower standard than a playwriter? Just because JP is dabbling in an area (rock opera / musical) that he isn't familiar with, doesn't mean that he can't be judged by its usual standards. He's had time to refine his craft as a lyricist and has had enough experience with watching works of this nature to know what works and what doesn't work. Plus, nobody said that he couldn't go and get help to assist him in writing the best album he could if he wanted to. He worked on his own because it was his choice to, so this lowering of standards doesn't make much sense. Even then, other prog metal bands have presented excellent stories in their concept albums, so why not the band at the forefront of the genre?

I agree, they can be judged and I think rightfully should be judged by the usual standards. I am just wondering why, when we all know that JP is not this, so why expect him to suddenly make this wonderful awesome epic concept album that is equivalent to Les Miserables. Seems like holding JP to some higher standard that he never could reach or achieve with what he had to work with. Of course, he could've went out and did all that, but that would require more time to look and search for a lyricist, and all that. What we have here too that I like is that it's like a short story book, or a condensed telling of the story. What I would like to see one day is a full on musical broadway style play, with added scenes, and stories and characters from the book. But that requires a lot of work to implement. And JP doesn't have the time for that.

Now this makes me imagine how different it would've been if he waited until now to make that concept, and what he could have done since he had the time now to really do it...

I don't know, but to me, I have not heard a concept album from a rock musician that incorporated this level of dialogue well enough for me, other than Ayreon. That is how narrative concept albums should be done, IMO. The other one that comes close is Avantasia, and his is more of that AOR kind of metal style, which fits perfect with the Avantasia concepts.


Also...I want to emphasize that The reason I know how Evangeline died is because it's in the book. I did not know how she died until I read that book and said, holy hell, those NOMACS are fatal.

But I'm the book, Evangeline does slip away peacefully, as in the way she ends up leaving the world at the time. To Ahrys, she slipped àway into death peacefully...Or as I read the lyrics again. He could be letting his people know that even though The NOMACS caused her death, she still went and slipped into the other world peacefully. A Better Life is Ahrys describing to us, and telling us the listener, why he fights for A Better Life.

The Book gives you all that information.

The album doesn't because that is not the main focus of the story. It's not about the great northern empire. It's about Gabriel and his gift of music, saving Ravenskill from being obliterated and to prevent war, as Faythe, the king's daughter, sees how these people, even in times of despair still seem happy and sing songs. Like how The Who's still sing even after The Grinch stole Christmas.

This right here shows the exact problem. It not being the focus was their decision. I think many would agree that the main plot of a dystopian rock opera being a fairly sappy love story (I mean... they fall in love at first sight, come on, that's literally below Disney nowadays in terms of story sophistication) rather than something that more reflects the nature of that setting was the main misfire with it. Saying that it's okay that the album doesn't touch on this because the book does just reinforces the point that critics are trying to say. For all we know in the album itself, Evangeline just died of some random illness. Knowing that she died from the oppression of the state via the NOMACs changes the game and adds far more to the album's story, which is the important thing in this context, because we can guarantee that like 99% of TA's listeners haven't read a word of the book and likely won't in the future. I'm sure the book is good, but that doesn't change what the album itself is.


And that is not JP's or the bands fault if people felt disappointed because they did get a fairly sappy love story.

I for one, enjoyed it, and liked it for what it is. And as everyone who hasn't read the book, I didn't know how Evangeline Died either, other than that she died while giving birth to Xander "Peacefully, she slipped away, the meaning of my life was born that day" whom is what Ahrys' passion for freedom was for, A Better Life for his son which he promised to Evangeline upon her death. I got this from the lyrics, and the music. It wasn't until I started reading the book did I know how she died, so I literally was...Astonished.  :biggrin:

So for the information we got in the album, all we know is that Xander is the reason and the fire for the passion Ahrys has for fighting for hope, and the freedom of Ravenskill. This is why he is doing what he is doing, and why he sees Gabriel as the Savior with his Gift of Music.


The way I see it is, this is what JP wanted to tell with his story, this is what he wanted to focus on and this is what we got. He understood the want for more of the war, and other parts of the world of The Astonishing, so he decided to find someone who is a writer, albeit one that he can afford to hire, to write the story for him and to expand upon the world. That's what I mean by the focus of the story isn't what people wanted or expected, even based off of hearing The Gift of Music. It's like expecting how a movie is going to end based off the first scene of the movie, or the trailer.

I do understand the disappointment, with the expectation based on the trailers we were given. But that just makes me laugh because it's exactly the disappointment you see with movie goers when the movie isn't what the Trailers portrayed it as. Which would make it look like an action packed type of film because the trailers only showed the action scenes, and then the people got a drama.  :lol

 

« Last Edit: April 01, 2021, 11:15:15 AM by Ben_Jamin »
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1282 on: April 01, 2021, 12:45:11 PM »
And that is not JP's or the bands fault if people felt disappointed because they did get a fairly sappy love story.

I for one, enjoyed it, and liked it for what it is. And as everyone who hasn't read the book, I didn't know how Evangeline Died either, other than that she died while giving birth to Xander "Peacefully, she slipped away, the meaning of my life was born that day" whom is what Ahrys' passion for freedom was for, A Better Life for his son which he promised to Evangeline upon her death. I got this from the lyrics, and the music. It wasn't until I started reading the book did I know how she died, so I literally was...Astonished.  :biggrin:

So for the information we got in the album, all we know is that Xander is the reason and the fire for the passion Ahrys has for fighting for hope, and the freedom of Ravenskill. This is why he is doing what he is doing, and why he sees Gabriel as the Savior with his Gift of Music.

The way I see it is, this is what JP wanted to tell with his story, this is what he wanted to focus on and this is what we got. He understood the want for more of the war, and other parts of the world of The Astonishing, so he decided to find someone who is a writer, albeit one that he can afford to hire, to write the story for him and to expand upon the world. That's what I mean by the focus of the story isn't what people wanted or expected, even based off of hearing The Gift of Music. It's like expecting how a movie is going to end based off the first scene of the movie, or the trailer.

I do understand the disappointment, with the expectation based on the trailers we were given. But that just makes me laugh because it's exactly the disappointment you see with movie goers when the movie isn't what the Trailers portrayed it as. Which would make it look like an action packed type of film because the trailers only showed the action scenes, and then the people got a drama.  :lol

Well the thing is, it kind of is their fault. It's really an issue of DT managing expectations quite badly here, both with the premise of the album in general as well as the lead off single of The Gift of Music, both in the context of it being released early and how it sets the tone for the album (which is a point that also could be directed towards Moment of Betrayal). It also doesn't help that in my, as well as many others' opinion, the story on its own merits... isn't that great. It's not even that love stories are bad inherently, but this is as cliched as it gets. As I implied, the whole love at first sight thing is something that Disney got over like... half a century ago? The reasons for them falling in love are that Faythe likes Gabriel's music and that Gabriel thinks Faythe is pretty. It's extremely shallow and it doesn't even really get better after that. Mind you, I'm giving all these criticisms as someone who actually really likes the music on it. I take The Astonishing for what it is, with my personal gripes with it and all. I mean hell, if it was a total disaster, I probably wouldn't even waste my energy on it. The main thing is just that I'm thinking about a lot of the missed opportunities with a project such as this one.

I agree, they can be judged and I think rightfully should be judged by the usual standards. I am just wondering why, when we all know that JP is not this, so why expect him to suddenly make this wonderful awesome epic concept album that is equivalent to Les Miserables. Seems like holding JP to some higher standard that he never could reach or achieve with what he had to work with. Of course, he could've went out and did all that, but that would require more time to look and search for a lyricist, and all that. What we have here too that I like is that it's like a short story book, or a condensed telling of the story. What I would like to see one day is a full on musical broadway style play, with added scenes, and stories and characters from the book. But that requires a lot of work to implement. And JP doesn't have the time for that.

Now this makes me imagine how different it would've been if he waited until now to make that concept, and what he could have done since he had the time now to really do it...

I don't know, but to me, I have not heard a concept album from a rock musician that incorporated this level of dialogue well enough for me, other than Ayreon. That is how narrative concept albums should be done, IMO. The other one that comes close is Avantasia, and his is more of that AOR kind of metal style, which fits perfect with the Avantasia concepts.

Honestly, this is kinda selling JP short. He's an inconsistent storyteller for sure, but he has his moments. He generally works better within a more general framework like Barstool Warrior than he does with a full narrative but even still, there's potential. I think like how Roger Waters needed Bob Ezrin to polish up The Wall, JP probably needed that kind of experienced figure to help guide him to something more impactful. After all, there's something to be said for artists recognising their own weaknesses and accounting for them. You also illustrate my point quite well by listing Ayreon and Avantasia as examples of rock operas projects that worked. It is definitely possible for that format to work in the context of Dream Theater. I also concur with the idea that JP should've sat on this for a few years and worked with industry veterans to make this as good as it could be. Hell, he could've even bypassed Dream Theater as a whole for this and made it a separate project while DT did their own thing, which would've made more sense than having one singer do vocals for a pretty large cast.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1283 on: April 01, 2021, 01:19:59 PM »
And that is not JP's or the bands fault if people felt disappointed because they did get a fairly sappy love story.

I for one, enjoyed it, and liked it for what it is. And as everyone who hasn't read the book, I didn't know how Evangeline Died either, other than that she died while giving birth to Xander "Peacefully, she slipped away, the meaning of my life was born that day" whom is what Ahrys' passion for freedom was for, A Better Life for his son which he promised to Evangeline upon her death. I got this from the lyrics, and the music. It wasn't until I started reading the book did I know how she died, so I literally was...Astonished.  :biggrin:

So for the information we got in the album, all we know is that Xander is the reason and the fire for the passion Ahrys has for fighting for hope, and the freedom of Ravenskill. This is why he is doing what he is doing, and why he sees Gabriel as the Savior with his Gift of Music.

The way I see it is, this is what JP wanted to tell with his story, this is what he wanted to focus on and this is what we got. He understood the want for more of the war, and other parts of the world of The Astonishing, so he decided to find someone who is a writer, albeit one that he can afford to hire, to write the story for him and to expand upon the world. That's what I mean by the focus of the story isn't what people wanted or expected, even based off of hearing The Gift of Music. It's like expecting how a movie is going to end based off the first scene of the movie, or the trailer.

I do understand the disappointment, with the expectation based on the trailers we were given. But that just makes me laugh because it's exactly the disappointment you see with movie goers when the movie isn't what the Trailers portrayed it as. Which would make it look like an action packed type of film because the trailers only showed the action scenes, and then the people got a drama.  :lol

Well the thing is, it kind of is their fault. It's really an issue of DT managing expectations quite badly here, both with the premise of the album in general as well as the lead off single of The Gift of Music, both in the context of it being released early and how it sets the tone for the album (which is a point that also could be directed towards Moment of Betrayal). It also doesn't help that in my, as well as many others' opinion, the story on its own merits... isn't that great. It's not even that love stories are bad inherently, but this is as cliched as it gets. As I implied, the whole love at first sight thing is something that Disney got over like... half a century ago? The reasons for them falling in love are that Faythe likes Gabriel's music and that Gabriel thinks Faythe is pretty. It's extremely shallow and it doesn't even really get better after that. Mind you, I'm giving all these criticisms as someone who actually really likes the music on it. I take The Astonishing for what it is, with my personal gripes with it and all. I mean hell, if it was a total disaster, I probably wouldn't even waste my energy on it. The main thing is just that I'm thinking about a lot of the missed opportunities with a project such as this one.

I agree, they can be judged and I think rightfully should be judged by the usual standards. I am just wondering why, when we all know that JP is not this, so why expect him to suddenly make this wonderful awesome epic concept album that is equivalent to Les Miserables. Seems like holding JP to some higher standard that he never could reach or achieve with what he had to work with. Of course, he could've went out and did all that, but that would require more time to look and search for a lyricist, and all that. What we have here too that I like is that it's like a short story book, or a condensed telling of the story. What I would like to see one day is a full on musical broadway style play, with added scenes, and stories and characters from the book. But that requires a lot of work to implement. And JP doesn't have the time for that.

Now this makes me imagine how different it would've been if he waited until now to make that concept, and what he could have done since he had the time now to really do it...

I don't know, but to me, I have not heard a concept album from a rock musician that incorporated this level of dialogue well enough for me, other than Ayreon. That is how narrative concept albums should be done, IMO. The other one that comes close is Avantasia, and his is more of that AOR kind of metal style, which fits perfect with the Avantasia concepts.

Honestly, this is kinda selling JP short. He's an inconsistent storyteller for sure, but he has his moments. He generally works better within a more general framework like Barstool Warrior than he does with a full narrative but even still, there's potential. I think like how Roger Waters needed Bob Ezrin to polish up The Wall, JP probably needed that kind of experienced figure to help guide him to something more impactful. After all, there's something to be said for artists recognising their own weaknesses and accounting for them. You also illustrate my point quite well by listing Ayreon and Avantasia as examples of rock operas projects that worked. It is definitely possible for that format to work in the context of Dream Theater. I also concur with the idea that JP should've sat on this for a few years and worked with industry veterans to make this as good as it could be. Hell, he could've even bypassed Dream Theater as a whole for this and made it a separate project while DT did their own thing, which would've made more sense than having one singer do vocals for a pretty large cast.

Precisely. All this I agree with and see no fault in either. I personally was not expecting a grand epic story from JP. The reason being I know based on his lyrics he isn't that great of a story teller or lyricist to make a story that isn't cliche or cheesy. Which is why I consider it like a Disney Movie version.

I also know that JP is a good lyricist as well, and I kind of did sell him short with that statement, but I do not see him as that personally. I like a lot of his lyrics actually.

There's also the aspect of having the means to look for and to afford what you actually want. And here, JP felt he didn't need or wanted a Bob Ezrin, because he felt trust in himself, and the band, that they can tell this story through a concept album.

The risk they took was knowing how Cliche it is. They knew this, and decided to do it anyways, because why not.  :lol

While I do like the album, immensely, I also agree that it could be way, way better than what it actually is. But i'm not wallowing in what could've been, and I just accept it for what it actually is. And I am finding neat things within it in regards to how the music relates to the characters and thier moods and situations.
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Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1284 on: April 01, 2021, 01:35:02 PM »
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.

Offline Ben_Jamin

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1285 on: April 01, 2021, 03:37:30 PM »
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.

Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.

Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.

Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters.  :lol
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Offline Lupton

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1286 on: April 01, 2021, 03:50:07 PM »
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.

Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.

Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.

Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters.  :lol

  :laugh:

To be fair isn't JP already a self admitted Dis-nerd? Personally speaking, I find comparisons to Disney neither derogatory nor complimentary. I'm pretty neutral there, as I have no strong feelings either way about Disney's output.

Offline gzarruk

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1287 on: April 01, 2021, 06:14:15 PM »
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.

Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.

Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.

Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters.  :lol

  :laugh:

To be fair isn't JP already a self admitted Dis-nerd? Personally speaking, I find comparisons to Disney neither derogatory nor complimentary. I'm pretty neutral there, as I have no strong feelings either way about Disney's output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkVjBPFPxKg :lol
It sounds like, "ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk, ruk." Instead of the more pleasing kick drum sound of, "gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk, gzarruk."

Offline jonny108

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1288 on: April 01, 2021, 06:19:29 PM »
Yeah that's fair. I still really enjoy the album because I just see the story as a sort of mildly self aware whimsical escapade (kind of like the so-bad-it's-good appeal of Jojo or the 80s Transformers film) rather than telling a wholly serious story, essentially just embracing the cheesiness and cliche. There's a kind of captivating amateurism to the plot, in that way. It's just an approach that taps into a somewhat niche audience, rather that what a more polished affair might have garnered.

Yup. Especially coming from a Metal band. I compare it to how Kiss fans view The Elder.

Hell, whenever I hear Act of Faythe especially the Illiminal cover, I instantly picture someone like Ariel or Meg singing. While doing the Disney choreography, and I really imagine this with the part "My Music Player". Yet, I do not have a problem with it and I don't think any other word phrase besides Music Player would've worked.

Also, I blame this influence on JP having to constantly watch Disney because he had Daughters.  :lol

  :laugh:

To be fair isn't JP already a self admitted Dis-nerd? Personally speaking, I find comparisons to Disney neither derogatory nor complimentary. I'm pretty neutral there, as I have no strong feelings either way about Disney's output.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkVjBPFPxKg :lol

21st December 2014......Astonishing started recording in January 2015.  Obviously this video is the seed that planted The Astonishing.

Offline Evermind

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1289 on: April 01, 2021, 10:30:30 PM »
Hearing that JP was apparently inspired by Game of Thrones as well also seems very odd in how GoT is everything TA isn't.

This is highly debatable, see. There is a considerable number of people on this board who think TA was shit, and there also is a considerable number of people who think GoT turned to shit in the last season/last couple of seasons. :biggrin:
This first band is Soen very cool swingy jazz fusion kinda stuff.

Online Chino

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1290 on: April 02, 2021, 05:42:28 AM »
The ending of The Astonishing > The ending of Game of Thrones. There is absolutely nothing to debate there. DT could have run out of room on Disc 2 and never included the ending, and it still would have been better than GOT.

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1291 on: April 02, 2021, 06:02:11 AM »
Heh, well you get what I mean though. Game of Thrones in its prime eschews a lot of the cliche normally associated with its setting and puts a lot of twists on common tropes, while TA pretty much takes a bunch of archetypes... and doesn't really do anything with them.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1292 on: April 02, 2021, 03:46:34 PM »
Well, I don't think the ending of Game of Thrones was as awful as the internet mob thinks it was (it wasn't great, but still enjoyable for the most part, and the final sequence was marvelous), but I am not going to fight that fight again.  :lol :lol

I will still submit that Our New World would have been the perfect end to The Astonishing.  I do not mind the the-less title track, but it feels like a bit of overkill.  Hymn... has that perfect penultimate feel and then Our New World is the great ender. And then there is another song at the end for some reason (preceded by the seemingly pointless Power Down NOMAC track).

Offline geeeemo

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1293 on: April 02, 2021, 04:33:51 PM »
I agree, except I like the powerdown. I am cheering!

Offline Enigmachine

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Re: - " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, FIVE YEARS On.
« Reply #1294 on: April 02, 2021, 04:49:14 PM »
tbh I think Power Down and Astonishing are prob necessary for the story as it was written. If it was just Our New World as a closer, it'd all feel a bit too sudden, whereas the title track kinda wraps everything up nicely.