- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.

[Ben_Jamin]

I would like to know why you think the lyrics are cringy? And why you don't enjoy the "uninspired ballad-like moments"?

But, if you have the time to take to put on good headphones and escape into your imagination into the story of The Astonishing is where you can enjoy each piece of music.

First question...they're cringy because they're so bad, bloated and sophomoric. Also extremely bloated, taking far too long to make a point. Compare how many words JP needs to set the stage to how Neal Peart did it in 2112. If you think they're fine, hey, to each their own.  I literally found myself cringing or rolling my eyes at so many lyrics from this album..

Second point....one of things that really annoys me about those who like TA is they often say those who don't simply don't listen to the album properly. First, it's highly insulting to suggest I'm incapable or haven't done so. Second, if the album requires some difficult-to-attain mindset in order to properly enjoy then I'd suggest it's a flawed piece.

The last part wasn't meant at you specifically. I didn't say you were incapable of doing that.

I am just curious as to why the people whom dislike this album, dislike the album.

I don't understand what you mean by bloated, sophomoric, and bad? What makes them bloated, sophomoric, and bad? Is it the word choice, the way they are delivered, the melody and word choice combination?

[hefdaddy42]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music.  A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.

[darkshade]

If DT were all chops and super heavy riffs and no musicality, they would not have been as popular as they've been. Let's look at Haken. They have most of the ingredients to be Dream Theater II. Some think they are. Besides not having as strong a singer as young James LaBrie, however, I don't find them to be as accessible to broader audiences, because their melodic writing is not as memorable as DT's, even some of modern DT. I'll admit The Astonishing has a few twinkles in the night sky (Moment of Betrayal for example) The reason DT's music is successful is because it bridges the gap between the progressive music of Yes and Rush, with the heavy rock and metal music of Metallica and Iron Maiden, while blending it with rock-jazz-fusion tendencies like Allan Holdsworth, Al DiMeola, or Steve Morse, and writing music that is both musically complex but also rhythmic, catchy, melodic, and fun.
Haken have not written their Pull Me Under or Panic Attack.

[Enigmachine]

I mean, it's probably fair to say that 1985 and Prosthetic respectively could probably be considered decent parallels but even if not, I don't think Haken would gain by trying to strike that exact balance that Dream Theater has. Bands like Circus Maximus have made some brilliant music in that vein that's also memorable and complex but Haken, while seemingly being more of a niche band on the surface, has ultimately garnered much more attention. It also doesn't explain the sheer popularity of a band like Between the Buried and Me or Periphery, bands that on paper should be extremely inaccessible.

I think it ties in with a general point that I don't think it's even really possible for a progressive rock/metal band to get as big as Dream Theater because there's many bands nowadays that fill a niche that's similar, but taps into something more specialised, with the end result being that you'd now listen to like 20 bands with a certain vibe rather than the 1 that would've been your only choice at the time, with fan attention being much more divided as a result. That and the fact that the infrastructure of the music industry is simply much different nowadays than it was back in the 90s.

[Max Kuehnau]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music.  A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.

and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)

[Kotowboy]

The Astonishing is better than DT12

[Dublagent66]

That ain't saying much.  They're both not that good.

[hefdaddy42]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music.  A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.

and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)

Very true.

[IDontNotDoThings]

The Astonishing is better than DT12

I don't think that's very controversial, but I do agree.

[Chino]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music.  A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.

and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)

I'd throw Umphrey's McGee and Snarky Puppy on that pile too.

[darkshade]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music.  A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.

and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)

I'd throw Umphrey's McGee and Snarky Puppy on that pile too.

Good choices. Phish too, especially their earlier material. All these bands appeal to musicians and non-musicians alike.

Whereas bands like Transatlantic and Haken, mostly only appeal to musicians and/or niche audiences.

Transatlantic's music is upbeat and catchy but also proggy. However, they're too 'metal' for the hippies, and with too many parts for the druggies to remember it all, and for anyone else, the average concert goer/music listener is not into long compositions and anything that doesn't sound like music you hear on current hit stations or Hip-Hop/modern R&B stations. But if TA actually had more metal in their music they *might* be more popular.

If someone in Haken had the ability to write catchier hooks like Neal Morse can, and had a better singer to sing them, I think Haken would be much bigger. They have all the other right ingredients in their music though I don't know what they're doing lately, last 2 albums did nothing for me.

[Enigmachine]

If someone in Haken had the ability to write catchier hooks like Neal Morse can, and had a better singer to sing them, I think Haken would be much bigger. They have all the other right ingredients in their music though I don't know what they're doing lately, last 2 albums did nothing for me.

I find this somewhat ironic given that Haken are bigger than Neal Morse, his band (who seem to have the adjustments that'd presumably make Transatlantic big) and probably Spock's Beard (who write generally more trimmed down tracks nowadays, so wouldn't have the inaccessibility) combined. The idea that a band like Haken could suddenly become DT level big by adopting a particular musical formula doesn't seem particularly lilkely to me. I don't think the lack of any major prog/prog influenced band to break into the metal mainstream since the likes of Tool, Opeth, Dream Theater, Mastodon, Gojira, Meshuggah etc. (with probably Periphery, Animals as Leaders and Tesseract coming the closest in the 2010s) is due to a fault in any of the newer bands, but simply due to the conditions of a different industry influenced by the increased presence of streaming as the primary method for consuming music.

[darkshade]

If someone in Haken had the ability to write catchier hooks like Neal Morse can, and had a better singer to sing them, I think Haken would be much bigger. They have all the other right ingredients in their music though I don't know what they're doing lately, last 2 albums did nothing for me.

I find this somewhat ironic given that Haken are bigger than Neal Morse, his band (who seem to have the adjustments that'd presumably make Transatlantic big) and probably Spock's Beard (who write generally more trimmed down tracks nowadays, so wouldn't have the inaccessibility) combined. The idea that a band like Haken could suddenly become DT level big by adopting a particular musical formula doesn't seem particularly lilkely to me. I don't think the lack of any major prog/prog influenced band to break into the metal mainstream since the likes of Tool, Opeth, Dream Theater, Mastodon, Gojira, Meshuggah etc. (with probably Periphery, Animals as Leaders and Tesseract coming the closest in the 2010s) is due to a fault in any of the newer bands, but simply due to the conditions of a different industry influenced by the increased presence of streaming as the primary method for consuming music.

Maybe so, but I don't think Haken is anywhere near as popular as those other bands, which is why I lumped them in with TA. I don't see Haken discussed much of anywhere outside of DT forums, maybe progarchives. Whereas most serious music fans have at least heard of most, if not all, of those bands you listed.

Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.

I think there's a sweet spot that most bands don't hit. Complex enough for the prog heads, but not deep enough for the kids who are there to party and let loose, and think deep thoughts, that is, until their fan base is established (see: Phish). DT seemed to fill that void in the 90s as well.

[hefdaddy42]

Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.

Vulfpeck's success doesn't make sense because you don't like them?

Fuck that shit, Vulfpeck is awesome.  They are hella fun, and funkier than week-old gym socks.  They are successful because what they do strikes a chord with lots of people, and they work their asses off.

[Enigmachine]

Maybe so, but I don't think Haken is anywhere near as popular as those other bands, which is why I lumped them in with TA. I don't see Haken discussed much of anywhere outside of DT forums, maybe progarchives. Whereas most serious music fans have at least heard of most, if not all, of those bands you listed.

Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.

I think there's a sweet spot that most bands don't hit. Complex enough for the prog heads, but not deep enough for the kids who are there to party and let loose, and think deep thoughts, that is, until their fan base is established (see: Phish). DT seemed to fill that void in the 90s as well.

I mean, we can't really say that Haken has less potential for the metal mainstream than Gojira, Periphery, Tesseract or Meshuggah though, can we? Not to mention, you've kinda undermined your point with a band that you yourself can't really understand the appeal of. I think it goes to show that, especially in the prog world, sometimes this sort of thing is a game of luck (like, if the right news outlet happens to promote the band at the opportune time, for instance). I think a major factor to this is that as time goes on, it has become harder and harder to carve out a unique niche for a band that also has mass appeal, as well as still being able to be classed as progressive. Even the success that Haken has themselves I think we'll be seeing less and less of, honestly.

[Chino]

Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.

Vulfpeck's success doesn't make sense because you don't like them?

Fuck that shit, Vulfpeck is awesome.  They are hella fun, and funkier than week-old gym socks.  They are successful because what they do strikes a chord with lots of people, and they work their asses off.

I never heard of this band until this post. Decided to look them up. They're outstanding. They're like a modern day Steely Dan.

[Stadler]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Well, not musicians ONLY, but that has certainly always been an element of DT's music.  A huge percentage of their fan base are musicians of varying levels.

and these bands (like DT) have their place for good reason. (Toto and Steely Dan were others to come to mind. Lots of fans of both bands are musicians.)

I think you're kind of proving my point.    The biggest Toto fan I know of that isn't named "Kattleox/Firewings" is not a musician, and the second biggest fan - my daughter of all people - isn't either.   The two biggest Steely Dan fans I know of aren't musicians.   They do both, in other words.  They didn't get to have umpteen records out and play arenas/ampitheaters because they were catering for people just waiting for that Cmaj7dim chord to pop up.

[Enigmachine]

Honestly I think people would be surprised how well non-musicians take to supposed "music for musicians." I mean, take gaming for instance, like the soundtrack for the last two Doom games for instance, it's essentially just Meshuggah with electronics or Final Fantasy music generally, which is well known for being inspired by a lot of progressive rock. On paper, this stuff would be less accessible and yet when people hear that, sure you get musicians showing appreciation for its details, but you also get the audience and critics generally loving it too. Just because music is technically complex or sophisticated, doesn't mean that it's necessarily impenetrable for general audiences.

[Ben_Jamin]

Honestly I think people would be surprised how well non-musicians take to supposed "music for musicians." I mean, take gaming for instance, like the soundtrack for the last two Doom games for instance, it's essentially just Meshuggah with electronics or Final Fantasy music generally, which is well known for being inspired by a lot of progressive rock. On paper, this stuff would be less accessible and yet when people hear that, sure you get musicians showing appreciation for its details, but you also get the audience and critics generally loving it too. Just because music is technically complex or sophisticated, doesn't mean that it's necessarily impenetrable for general audiences.

I agree...

And where I think it comes to is how the people are exposed to the music. The radio here in America doesn't have a big palette of genres they play. And most of the masses listen to the music through radio, in the mall, in the car, in the airport, everywhere people are exposed to the radio. Most people won't go out of their way to look for music they like either. It's what makes those of us whom search for music, music fans. So the music they know is only what is played through the NOMACS Radio.

It's what I see how different areas of the world have different music styles they all enjoy and are popular. Like Japan utilizing a lot of complex music.

[darkshade]

Take a band like Vulfpeck, I don't think they're even that good of a band (the individual members are great players though.) and their live shows are a mess...
They're more of a funky/jazzy kind of band, and they rose up out of no where a few years ago with no hits, and they play venues like Madison Square Garden now. It kind of makes no sense because I don't get the appeal compared to hundreds of other bands out there.

Vulfpeck's success doesn't make sense because you don't like them?

Fuck that shit, Vulfpeck is awesome.  They are hella fun, and funkier than week-old gym socks.  They are successful because what they do strikes a chord with lots of people, and they work their asses off.

I should have specified that I do like their studio albums, but I do not like their live performances, that is why I can't wrap my head around their popularity (mostly in the jam band circuit) as a live band, and I am not the only one out there who feels the same way. They put on these jokey performances mixed with rants and random inside jokes. Look, I love live Zappa, he did that stuff too, but he'd then have the band turn around and blow your mind musically. Vulfpeck doesn't let up with the bad jokes, from what I've seen.

[hefdaddy42]

But they have kind of made their name on their live performances.  That's why they keep having people come out to see them live.

[PMA]

Sorry if these have been posted before but I found these covers of A New Beginning and Our New World featuring different vocalists for each of the characters within the song.  I thought they were well done and how they might be performed if in an actual stage play.  For those who appreciate The Astonishing, I hope you enjoy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtpJfCKPlZs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUh2DPe8CaM

[darkshade]

But they have kind of made their name on their live performances.  That's why they keep having people come out to see them live.

Not that I'm aware of, they only got that popular the last couple of years pre-covid due to the press coverage of "Sleepify" and touring the jam band festival circuit, not because of anything they did musically.
 
Then they are an anomaly. Again, I like their music, but their studio albums paint a different picture of a band compared to their live counterpart, and not like a Phish or Grateful Dead type band. I applaud them for their success, though.

[dparrott]

I keep thinking the chorus to Three Days is in the song Lord Nafaryus. 

And +1 for Vulfpeck!

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

The Astonishing is better than DT12

I don't think that's very controversial, but I do agree.

The thing about DT12 is that it kinda failed to deliver what it sought to. It was the first album that could include MM in a deeper writing level and basically take the greatness of ADTOE and bring it to the next level but it kinda stayed halfway there. It's got pretty cool moments throughout but it definitely felt short to the "this album is a self-titled because it defines who we are" mantra.

TA, on the other hand, was a completely different beast so they are difficult to compare but I could definitely say with certainty that DOT was everything DT12 sought out to be and more (excluding Illumination Theory which is an amazing song by its own right).

[darkshade]

I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band. I imagine they were also determined to put out a killer record as best as they could in the aftermath of MP leaving the band. The whole ordeal was probably a sort of adrenaline shot to the band. They also wrote it without MM, so they were still using MP's style as a template for the music. DT12, however, was the first one where they had to come up with new music with the new guy, and I think they hadn't settled into not working with MP anymore, creatively speaking.

Then they put out The Astonishing, which was a sort of a Dream Theater detour, and doesn't totally follow any growth or progression in the overall sound and style of the current lineup. TA just sounds like DT12, though not mastered as hot, with enhanced Disney acrobatics. DoT is the band finally finding their groove. It's mastered hot again, but the energy is high; however, I still think they're not totally there. DoT felt like they restrained themselves just a little too much, at least on Pale Blue Dot, and I'm just over the "here's how metal we are" songs at this point, like the first 3 tracks. It's not their strong suit IMO. I sort of feel like DT15 might be that album we've been waiting for since ADTOE, but I have low to moderate expectations.

[Ben_Jamin]

Where DT12  failed, for me, is the production. I forgot who said it back when it was released, but "Blanket over the speaker" best describes the sound of DT12.

Everything sounds so muffled. And the snare sound choice doesn't help much at all.

I think if DT12 was produced like D/T is, DT12 would sound way better and it would enhance those songs a lot. The Bigger Picture would fit perfectly in D/T with this mix and production, Behind The Veil, and Surrender to Reason as well.

It's why I think D/T is a nice progression from DT12.

And why The Astonishing, I think,  would've done better if it was released as..."John Petrucci presents The Astonishing as performed by Dream Theater"....But, then I think it's also implied based on the interviews JP gave about the album.

The Astonishing was a great detour that also let them experiment with different Production and Recording techniques, and arrangements, and melody choices.

[gzarruk]

I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.

This is not true at all, it was all written in the studio by the 4 of them (expect BTS, which was written and brought by JP very late into the process). Sure, they could've had a couple riffs and ideas from before, but they never write while on tour, they write specifically for each album, in the studio.
I even remember them sharing about how they focused a lot on melody and the core elements of what made DT DT.

And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.

[nobloodyname]

Where DT12  failed, for me, is the production. I forgot who said it back when it was released, but "Blanket over the speaker" best describes the sound of DT12.

Everything sounds so muffled. And the snare sound choice doesn't help much at all.

I'm sure you're probably aware but just in case: if you scoop some of the mids, as they say, you might find it better sonically.

It doesn't change my opinion that it's either their worst album or their second worst (I'm using "worst" rather than least favourite here deliberately) but at least it sounds better. Which is something

[hefdaddy42]

I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.

What

[darkshade]

Where DT12  failed, for me, is the production. I forgot who said it back when it was released, but "Blanket over the speaker" best describes the sound of DT12.

Everything sounds so muffled. And the snare sound choice doesn't help much at all.

Another issue I've realized lately is DT12's track order is no good. I listened to a very modified track sequence recently and it made me appreciate the album a little more, to the point where I don't think it's as bad as I used to consider it (it's still a low-tier DT album for me) and the experience was much more consistent and had a better flow and pace to the whole thing. The album goes back and forth between heavier tracks and lighter, often moody tracks. I forget the exact order of songs, I'd have to go through the album, but for some reason I feel like it worked better with all the heavier tracks first, besides the epic which still closes the album.

[darkshade]

I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.

What

I'm sure some riffs or melodies were constructed before MP left. They were about to start work on DT11 when MP left.

[darkshade]

I think part of the reason ADTOE started off the Mangini era strong is that much of the music, I assume, was birthed while MP was still in the band.

This is not true at all, it was all written in the studio by the 4 of them (expect BTS, which was written and brought by JP very late into the process). Sure, they could've had a couple riffs and ideas from before, but they never write while on tour, they write specifically for each album, in the studio.
I even remember them sharing about how they focused a lot on melody and the core elements of what made DT DT.

And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.

While JP, JR, and JM are some of the best players in the business, and could play circles around any of us, and considering how quick they put complex, progressive rock music together, I doubt they come in with zero creative ideas when they begin work on a new album, and make everything up on the spot in front of everyone, then try to write the music and compose where certain parts will go. I'm not talking about improvising together and taking ideas from the jams, either, and putting things together, which is surely a way to write music. Just saying, there's no way a riff or a melody doesn't come to them when they're practicing, or even at any one time. You don't just tell your brain "OK, we're in the studio now, time to make up some new music" and if that is what they do, it could help explain their steady decline since before MP left.

[darkshade]

And after it was released, even MP commented sarcastically on the IAW/ADTOE similarities, which he never would've said if the stuff was written with him still in the band.

If MP were in the band that album wouldn't be what it is, though I imagine there would be similar riffs and passages.

[Enigmachine]

Another issue I've realized lately is DT12's track order is no good. I listened to a very modified track sequence recently and it made me appreciate the album a little more, to the point where I don't think it's as bad as I used to consider it (it's still a low-tier DT album for me) and the experience was much more consistent and had a better flow and pace to the whole thing. The album goes back and forth between heavier tracks and lighter, often moody tracks. I forget the exact order of songs, I'd have to go through the album, but for some reason I feel like it worked better with all the heavier tracks first, besides the epic which still closes the album.

I mean... Images (PMU to Another Day to Take the Time to Surrounded to Metropolis) and Scenes (Regression to Overture 1928 / Strange Deja Vu to Through My Words to Fatal Tragedy) do a similar thing (with more contrast too) and people don't complain about that.