- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.

[MHStrawn]

Saw this thread and it inspired me to post. I didn't like TA when it came out...and nothing's really changed.  I have it rated the lowest among all DT albums, with BC&SL a close next-to-last.

Looked at my library and see I've only listened to five of the songs since February of 2019.  I never think "Gee I want to listen to The Astonishing" bc:  1) it's not a very good album and 2) it's just waaaay too long.

I gave the band credit for trying something different, and getting outside their comfort zone bc IMO they've been trodding very-well trod ground since SDOIT. But wow....the lyrics are so cringe. I can't believe the same guy who wrote Voices came up with this drivel. The endless parade of uninspired ballad-like moments was another gripe. And the second disc drags on incessantly. Looking at my individual song ratings the final 9 songs, covering 29 minutes, are all rated either 1 or 2 stars (out of 5). That's basically unlistenable to me.

Again, they tried something different and ambitious. Just didn't pull it off very well IMO.

[Ben_Jamin]

I would like to know why you think the lyrics are cringy? And why you don't enjoy the "uninspired ballad-like moments"?

For me, the lyrics are more like a dialogue compared to a poetic style or form like Voices lyrics are. And I personally think the lyrics fit well for the characters involved.

I get it that there could've been more heavier, less ballady songs, and ones that describe the war more, but I don't think that's the part of the story JP wanted to focus on. The Main focus of the story on the album is between Faythe and Gabriel, and their love of music to prevent the Lord from waging full on Invasion of Ravenskill. It's a Romeo and Juliet type of story, and the music really reflects that.

I personally think the music is a great soundtrack for the story JP is telling. It also requires a lot out of the listener actually. But, if you have the time to take to put on good headphones and escape into your imagination into the story of The Astonishing is where you can enjoy each piece of music, the tone in the melodies and chord progressions, how each represents a mood of each character, and how the music is there to enhance the listener to experience the mood the character is in at the time. It's why the War and Fighting moments are the heavy songs like Lord Nefaryus, Three Days, Moment of Betrayal and The Path That Divides.

[darkshade]

I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.

However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.

[Ben_Jamin]

I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.

However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.

Isn't that the point of a concept album. 

[WilliamMunny]

Saw this thread and it inspired me to post. I didn't like TA when it came out...and nothing's really changed.  I have it rated the lowest among all DT albums, with BC&SL a close next-to-last.

Looked at my library and see I've only listened to five of the songs since February of 2019.  I never think "Gee I want to listen to The Astonishing" bc:  1) it's not a very good album and 2) it's just waaaay too long.

I gave the band credit for trying something different, and getting outside their comfort zone bc IMO they've been trodding very-well trod ground since SDOIT. But wow....the lyrics are so cringe. I can't believe the same guy who wrote Voices came up with this drivel. The endless parade of uninspired ballad-like moments was another gripe. And the second disc drags on incessantly. Looking at my individual song ratings the final 9 songs, covering 29 minutes, are all rated either 1 or 2 stars (out of 5). That's basically unlistenable to me.

Again, they tried something different and ambitious. Just didn't pull it off very well IMO.

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on about a third of JP's lyrical output post-MP.

The first time I heard 'Take Away My Pain,' it nearly brought me to tears (still does)

The first time I heard 'My music plaaaayyyyyerrrr', I pressed 'skip'

I'm super happy that so many people enjoy this record, but I still struggle to get into it.

I listened to my 'condensed' mix (9 songs) during my workout yesterday morning, and I wound up deleting two more—so yeah, I like about 25 minutes of this record.

Honestly, for a band this far into their career, the fact that I'm still down to listen to 90 percent of their output is pretty amazing. They've gotten older, I've gotten older, but yet, I still find myself connecting with their music all of these years later. Lord knows my father couldn't say the same thing about anything he listened to when he was 15.

[Lupton]

I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.

However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.

I noticed that right out of the gate with TA the sonics have issues. All the "musical" tracks have that "singular core" sound you mentioned. However it seems the NOMAC tracks are totally different. For example, the opening NOMAC track is all low end, so if you are listening on any speakers with any ability to represent that range (who knows maybe I'm one of the few people left on this planet who does?) you get a massive surge of volume at the end of the 1st track; so when Dystopian Overture subsequently starts it sounds like a tinny mini-orchestra being played through cheap radio speakers in contrast. I always listen to the 1st NOMAC track at half volume and then double the volume before track 2 to try to recover some of the dynamic emphasis of the Overture crashing in. But sometimes its too annoying to go through the trouble so I just skip track 1.

[darkshade]

I like when bands take chances, but usually that means musically. The concept is surely different for the band. Sure, there is some Disney-fied parts on TA, though some would argue that element has been in the band's sound for over 20 years, they just exploited it here.

However, when you break it down, and I've said this before, TA is no different from the other Mangini albums from a sonic and pure technical perspective. They didn't really mix up their style of playing compared to ADTOE, DT12 or DoT. I'd say the band took bigger sonic and stylistic risks making Awake, FII, Scenes, SDOIT, and TOT, and they were pretty much all successful. All the Mangini albums have a singular core sound that varies little between tracks. So to me, the long, drawn out concept that isn't very interesting actually helps bringing the album down, as opposed to if the music was compressed into a single disc worth of music, and wasn't bashing you over the head with the concept.

I noticed that right out of the gate with TA the sonics have issues. All the "musical" tracks have that "singular core" sound you mentioned. However it seems the NOMAC tracks are totally different. For example, the opening NOMAC track is all low end, so if you are listening on any speakers with any ability to represent that range (who knows maybe I'm one of the few people left on this planet who does?) you get a massive surge of volume at the end of the 1st track; so when Dystopian Overture subsequently starts it sounds like a tinny mini-orchestra being played through cheap radio speakers in contrast. I always listen to the 1st NOMAC track at half volume and then double the volume before track 2 to try to recover some of the dynamic emphasis of the Overture crashing in. But sometimes its too annoying to go through the trouble so I just skip track 1.

Yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. I actually find that to be one of the worst moments on the album, and it's right in the beginning of the ordeal. It also makes me miss the huge sound from the MP days, consider the way the heavy guitars come crashing in on, say, the beginning of A Nightmare To Remember. The way the drums are mixed these days, combined with Mangini's sound, does not elevate the JP/JM low-end to massive heights they used to reach.

I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.

[Lupton]

I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.

Most of the main themes and melodies of this album are pretty consonant, so I often wonder if there is some sort of story connection with the NOMACs when Gabriel is about to play, after the line "sonic ecstacy" we get some nice dissonant rhythmically disjointed punches. So for a moment (right before the "love at first sight" ballad starts) we get the band doing something that sounds distinctly NOMAC-ish. What's up with that? Can someone else who knows the story better explain to me the significance of this musical passage?

[Ben_Jamin]

I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.

The NOMACS are meant to sound the way they do. As that is what music has become in The Great Northern Empire. Which is why Gabriel playing music is seen as a special gift and seen as powerful, it's why Nefaryus gets threatened by Gabriel being seen as a Savior because he plays this beautiful music that gathers the crowd of people. And he knows how strong music can be..."Remember Bug".

For how silly it sounds and looks when not looking at it within the concept, "Music Player" sounds cheesy and cheap, but here's a question...How else would you have worded "Music Player" to fit in with the melody in Act of Faythe? The Music Player is an important role in this concept, as Faythe only knowing the music of the NOMACS, discovers this Music Player and it opens up her world to of music, that no one else has heard of before, until she discovers that Nefaryus is "Bug" and lets her know how He was the one that outlawed this music from the world, and unleashed the NOMACS.

The best representation of the NOMACS was live, my god where those parts amazingly. Now imagine a concert sound system floating in the air, and vast amounts of those at once. At extremely louder volumes, that is how they truly sound.

I think the band missed a big opportunity to make a song around the Nomac stuff, somewhere on disc 2 there should have been a deep brooding song with different effects on the instruments, a song where the Nomacs come out and do stuff. Seems they're just these background, passive characters in the story.

Most of the main themes and melodies of this album are pretty consonant, so I often wonder if there is some sort of story connection with the NOMACs when Gabriel is about to play, after the line "sonic ecstacy" we get some nice dissonant rhythmically disjointed punches. So for a moment (right before the "love at first sight" ballad starts) we get the band doing something that sounds distinctly NOMAC-ish. What's up with that? Can someone else who knows the story better explain to me the significance of this musical passage?

To me, That moment represents that "They only know the noise machines"...NOMAC stands for NOise MAChine. And is like Gabriel pointing at the NOMACS that accompanied The Royal Family to Ravenskill, while he says "Noise Machines". And is him staring at them hovering, before he sets his sights on the angel appearing before his very eyes.

[Lupton]

To me, That moment represents that "They only know the noise machines"...NOMAC stands for NOise MAChine. And is like Gabriel pointing at the NOMACS that accompanied The Royal Family to Ravenskill, while he says "Noise Machines". And is him staring at them hovering, before he sets his sights on the angel appearing before his very eyes.

  Works for me! I always thought it was quite weird from a narrative perspective. Thanks for helping make some sense out of it.

[geeeemo]

They were also weaponized in the story. At the TA shows (is that repetitive or not??), when the NOMACS noise started at the beginning, it was LOUD and vibrated the theater. A great representation of how they were depicted in the book.

[Ben_Jamin]

To me, That moment represents that "They only know the noise machines"...NOMAC stands for NOise MAChine. And is like Gabriel pointing at the NOMACS that accompanied The Royal Family to Ravenskill, while he says "Noise Machines". And is him staring at them hovering, before he sets his sights on the angel appearing before his very eyes.

  Works for me! I always thought it was quite weird from a narrative perspective. Thanks for helping make some sense out of it.

No Problem. Seeing the background screens helped a lot too. And the book helps a lot. It's also why I say it's like listening to a Movie or more a book since it has a Narrator.

For me, I really think this album suffers from JLB being the only singer on this, Although he does an excellent job. The story would really benefit from the multiple vocalists as casual listeners will have a hard time distinguishing between characters. They don't know JLB's vocal style, so they have to follow along with the lyric book to remember who is speaking.

And, if I had the resources and funds, I would be doing my own production of The Astonishing live with a Stage Production, in the vein of The Theater Equation. That is the perfect way, I think, to do a Rock Concept while keeping the live show in tact. The acting is there enough for the story and emotion of the characters.

They were also weaponized in the story. At the TA shows (is that repetitive or not??), when the NOMACS noise started at the beginning, it was LOUD and vibrated the theater. A great representation of how they were depicted in the book.

Oh yeah, the best we could get without actually damaging our ears. Which is how they weaponized these things. They made Evangeline give birth for pete's sake.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.

As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.

And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.

Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.

[Ben_Jamin]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.

As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.

And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.

Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.

Disney has amazing songs...Maybe they'll like these Metal Covers of some Disney Songs...Like this one....The Bells Of Notre Dame


I agree it is a bit long, and it's funny because I find that A New Beginning and A Life Left Behind are ones that drag on, although I know and understand their importance to the story.

But then also, I do not enjoy every scene in a movie. And The Astonishing is like listening to a movie, in music form.

[Anguyen92]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.

There are some pretty darn incredible songs that came from Disney movies.  Guys like Elton John and Phil Collins contributed to some great songs that was used in Disney movies.  I'm more partial to I'm Still Here (Jim's theme) from John Rzeznik of the Goo Goo Dolls and Little Wonders from Matchbox 20's Rob Thomas.

To say this music sounds like Disney as a way to deem music not enjoyable seems non-credible if you ask me.

[hunnus2000]

I think people liken TA to Disney because of the use of one instrument - the Triangle which I'm sure MM appreciates. There is also harp sounds that I hear which I would think resonates Disney with some people.

And for the sheer number of instrumentation used on the album, I think sonically they hit the nail on the head. MM's drums sound fantastic!! 

[Stadler]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.

There are some pretty darn incredible songs that came from Disney movies.  Guys like Elton John and Phil Collins contributed to some great songs that was used in Disney movies.  I'm more partial to I'm Still Here (Jim's theme) from John Rzeznik of the Goo Goo Dolls and Little Wonders from Matchbox 20's Rob Thomas.

To say this music sounds like Disney as a way to deem music not enjoyable seems non-credible if you ask me.

I love both the Tarzan and Lion King soundtracks, personally and unapologetically.

[Lupton]

At some point one just has to regard certain abundances as actual strengths to those with complimentary preferences. In this case, there's so much more Jordan on this record than any other DT album I can think of. Not only is this unique in the catalog, if you happen to be a fan of Jordan's piano vignettes, I could see why this could quite possibly be your favorite DT album.

I've come to interpret the solo piano sections that preclude most of the acts as scenery changes. They're part of the world-building providing the "musical scenery" for the Northern Empire. It's stylistically consistent in the same way a set or costume design would maintain continuity in a stage or film production (visual world building).

[Ben_Jamin]

I've come to interpret the solo piano sections that preclude most of the acts as scenery changes. They're part of the world-building providing the "musical scenery" for the Northern Empire. It's stylistically consistent in the same way a set or costume design would maintain continuity in a stage or film production (visual world building).

That's a great way to put it. They do set that scene for each section, and help build that atmosphere and mood of the setting.

[darkshade]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.

As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.

And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.

Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.

I would argue the 2nd disc of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is Disney-fied, but it's done well, and has more of a swashbuckling feel, so it isn't necessarily a criticism, however, on TA, it is overdone IMO. If TA was a similar length to SDoIT and consisted of just the best of the best music, I'd probably enjoy it. But really, TA exploited the cheesier side of the Disney style of music more than Six Degrees did, since Six Degrees was more focused on symphonic prog that happened to be jovial and filled with bravado.

[Ben_Jamin]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing? As if that comparison was way to establish that the more musical-oriented style of the album is all sorts of unholy/unworthy/undeserving-of-prog-fans'-attention.

As far as I'm concerned, the Disney style is very incredible on its own. There are a couple of Disney tunes that I listen very regularly and are pretty amazing musical achievements on their own right. Musical taste/criteria is a funny thing, as what someone might call "uninspired" feels the actual opposite to me. The Astonishing is, clearly IMO, full of melodic, inspired and heart-filling musical moments that put it up there in my top 5 favorite DT albums. Does TA sound like the soundtrack of a Disney movie? Maybe, but I don't get why that would be a bad thing.

And now a last minute thought: I feel a much more cohesive and centered songwriting throughout that album than, say, the instrumental section in In the Presence of Enemies Pt. 2, or even DT music that feels blatantly uninspired and lacking of any creative energy like A Rite of Passage. It's funny because I feel that when DT are just falling to their old basic and formulaic ways it's when they just start throwing guitar solo/keyboard solo/unison/odd-time signature instrumental section parts at us. It has happened; quite a lot actually. Of course that TA is not without any flaws: most considerably, that it feels way too long (I feel that about all double albums, so there's that) and that Act 1, although it has some pretty incredible moments, does drag quite a bit; but the live experience was pretty awesome. This album was made to be enjoyed and listened to in a live situation, so their decision to not do any release is really baffling.

Get on with your day, my friends. My month of March would not feel complete without my weekly: "let's post something in defense of The Astonishing" routine.

I would argue the 2nd disc of Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence is Disney-fied, but it's done well, and has more of a swashbuckling feel, so it isn't necessarily a criticism, however, on TA, it is overdone IMO. If TA was a similar length to SDoIT and consisted of just the best of the best music, I'd probably enjoy it. But really, TA exploited the cheesier side of the Disney style of music more than Six Degrees did, since Six Degrees was more focused on symphonic prog that happened to be jovial and filled with bravado.

The only song where I really hear the Disney Cheese is in Act of Faythe. And that really fits the personality of Faythe being filled with youthful energy.

6DOIT subject matter doesn't lend itself to that cheese though. Each part has their set mood and emotion of that Mental Illness. About To Crash has that uplifting, happy, jumpy, joy mood, while the lyrics are the opposite and bleak, giving it that Bi-Polar feel where inside they are full of emotions, but on the outside are projecting a face onto the world. War Inside My Head, has that frantic War-like mood and atmosphere that is represented by the rhythms, especially in the bass and drums. TTSTA is frantic and chaotic right from the start, it represents the mind of the one going through all the Tests being done as he is inside the hollow halls. Goodbye Kiss is one I can see as Disney-esque, and is self-explanatory with it's mood and lyrics. Solitary Shell is another one, as it is a mix of youthfulness and that joy you feel as a child, but in the lyrics, they describe that darker aspect of the subject, a youthful mind that is muted from expressing itself.

Each section has their set mood describing the subjects mindset as the lyrics describe their condition.

What I want to know is...What makes those moments in The Astonishing cheesy?

[gzarruk]

So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:

I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album.  All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.

I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG?

[Dedalus]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing?

Well, I don't think that's the case here, but in the outside world the idea is to be offensive. In my local DT fan group (which I dropped out of when the number of people who hate the band outnumbered those who don't) was clearly used in a pejorative sense. In a world of metalheads, Disney music is unacceptable and ridiculous.

[darkshade]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing?

Well, I don't think that's the case here, but in the outside world the idea is to be offensive. In my local DT fan group (which I dropped out of when the number of people who hate the band outnumbered those who don't) was clearly used in a pejorative sense. In a world of metalheads, Disney music is unacceptable and ridiculous.

I listen to many styles of music and I also would prefer Disney style music to be left out of the music I like. It's the same when bands try to do Broadway type stuff, I'm just not into it. I know some like it, but it's a very niche taste in music and comes off incredibly cheesy, overly flamboyant in almost all instances. I just can't take it seriously, unless it's done for humor or satire, like Frank Zappa's "Thing-Fish" which is probably my least favorite album of his. I just happen to like something like SDoIT despite the Disneyesque moments.

[Stadler]

So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:

I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album.  All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.

I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG?

Not you, you're the messenger here, and I too would love to know the secret message, but that video is, for me, everything that's "wrong" (not the right word) with DT now.   I don't feel I should have to go to Berkelee just to "earn" the right to listen to the music.   That was always the joy of DT for me; first couple listens, I'd be blown away emotionally, goose bumps, all that, then on subsequent listens I could - if I wanted to - break it down and figure out the complexity and nuances.   This just leaves me cold.

[hefdaddy42]

So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:

I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album.  All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.

I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG?

Not you, you're the messenger here, and I too would love to know the secret message, but that video is, for me, everything that's "wrong" (not the right word) with DT now.   I don't feel I should have to go to Berkelee just to "earn" the right to listen to the music.   That was always the joy of DT for me; first couple listens, I'd be blown away emotionally, goose bumps, all that, then on subsequent listens I could - if I wanted to - break it down and figure out the complexity and nuances.   This just leaves me cold.

I mean, I guess.  But at the same time, he DOES have all of this training and next-level ability.  What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to hear? 

[Stadler]

So I was watching this video of MM in the studio for TA again (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XT2vy_IaXY), and he seems to have updated the description some time after the video was originally posted, it now says this:

I found this video taken during the recording of The Astonishing. Just Rich Chycki and me doing what we do. Raw Drums. Fun. This is NOT supposed to be, nor can it be "musical" to any brain not trained to process what it's hearing. Something like this never will until that brain earns it. The first chunk will sound like I'm about 2 years old. Maybe. But it is outlandishly difficult to repeat it. I'm being humorous with Rich, but still trying whacked out polyrhythms that never made the album.  All were done over the same 1/4 note BPM. I tried the 5 tuplet that was phrased in a pattern taking 8 bars [I played it with my feet,] against a 7 tuplet with hands in the same 1/4 note, but phrased completely differently. But where did I want it to go? If you even heard what I really played(/recorded some takes with) for the 3-minute outro of New Beginning, you'd fall over. It makes the current of "Finally Free" look like 'beginners' work as far as actually difficulty to actually play and repeat it. But, I ended up playing NO fills or changes in that N.B. spot to say something; to send a hidden message; nobody has picked up on it yet that I know of.

I'm really curious about the part I bolded, is he talking about a message figuratively, as in "less is more" approach, or is he talking about a REAL hidden message like something MP did with morse code on ITNOG?

Not you, you're the messenger here, and I too would love to know the secret message, but that video is, for me, everything that's "wrong" (not the right word) with DT now.   I don't feel I should have to go to Berkelee just to "earn" the right to listen to the music.   That was always the joy of DT for me; first couple listens, I'd be blown away emotionally, goose bumps, all that, then on subsequent listens I could - if I wanted to - break it down and figure out the complexity and nuances.   This just leaves me cold.

I mean, I guess.  But at the same time, he DOES have all of this training and next-level ability.  What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to hear?

Well, I would phrase that differently:  What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to PLAY?

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?  And even if it is, generally, it was never that way FOR ME.  It's not news, but I've long said that I love guys like Portnoy, Peart, Collins, Bonham, that play stuff that is HARD, that most people, even drummers, can't always do, but they make it sound so EASY (just look at a Rush crowd when Tom Sawyer starts; half the place is waving their arms either in imitation of Joe Cocker or in the seemingly belief of some level of being able to replicate it.  Yet, even Mr. Peart has said that the song is a challenge to play RIGHT even now, every night.)   Mangini seems to have a knack for playing even the easy stuff in a way that makes it sound impossible.

[Dedalus]

Well, I would phrase that differently:  What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to PLAY?

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?  And even if it is, generally, it was never that way FOR ME.  It's not news, but I've long said that I love guys like Portnoy, Peart, Collins, Bonham, that play stuff that is HARD, that most people, even drummers, can't always do, but they make it sound so EASY (just look at a Rush crowd when Tom Sawyer starts; half the place is waving their arms either in imitation of Joe Cocker or in the seemingly belief of some level of being able to replicate it.  Yet, even Mr. Peart has said that the song is a challenge to play RIGHT even now, every night.)   Mangini seems to have a knack for playing even the easy stuff in a way that makes it sound impossible.

Yes, but there are a number of musicians who do not fit this standard, such as Jordan Rudess, for example.
He doesn't make things sound easy, on the contrary, at various times he deliberately makes them sound as complicated as possible. (eg the solo at the end of This Dying Soul).

Mike Mangini in many ways resembles Jordan Rudess (it is no coincidence that I saw both of them being called robotic musicians). The difference is that Jordan has already been accepted as belonging to DT. Mike Mangini will never be.

[Ben_Jamin]

Just a quick thing:

Why have peopled used the "Disney" word for these past 5 years to talk ill about The Astonishing?

Well, I don't think that's the case here, but in the outside world the idea is to be offensive. In my local DT fan group (which I dropped out of when the number of people who hate the band outnumbered those who don't) was clearly used in a pejorative sense. In a world of metalheads, Disney music is unacceptable and ridiculous.

I listen to many styles of music and I also would prefer Disney style music to be left out of the music I like. It's the same when bands try to do Broadway type stuff, I'm just not into it. I know some like it, but it's a very niche taste in music and comes off incredibly cheesy, overly flamboyant in almost all instances. I just can't take it seriously, unless it's done for humor or satire, like Frank Zappa's "Thing-Fish" which is probably my least favorite album of his. I just happen to like something like SDoIT despite the Disneyesque moments.

Makes sense as to why you wouldn't enjoy The Astonishing. As it is pretty much in that broadway style.

It wouldn't be that hard to take this album and create a broadway show from it. Everything is pretty much there, maybe add more spoken dialogue and some transition scenes but The Setting, The Dialogue, and characters are all there.

[Ben_Jamin]

Well, I would phrase that differently:  What's the point of all that talent if you never get to use it to its full potential - if you only use it to play things that people don't need musical training to PLAY?

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it?  And even if it is, generally, it was never that way FOR ME.  It's not news, but I've long said that I love guys like Portnoy, Peart, Collins, Bonham, that play stuff that is HARD, that most people, even drummers, can't always do, but they make it sound so EASY (just look at a Rush crowd when Tom Sawyer starts; half the place is waving their arms either in imitation of Joe Cocker or in the seemingly belief of some level of being able to replicate it.  Yet, even Mr. Peart has said that the song is a challenge to play RIGHT even now, every night.)   Mangini seems to have a knack for playing even the easy stuff in a way that makes it sound impossible.

Yes, but there are a number of musicians who do not fit this standard, such as Jordan Rudess, for example.
He doesn't make things sound easy, on the contrary, at various times he deliberately makes them sound as complicated as possible. (eg the solo at the end of This Dying Soul).

Mike Mangini in many ways resembles Jordan Rudess (it is no coincidence that I saw both of them being called robotic musicians). The difference is that Jordan has already been accepted as belonging to DT. Mike Mangini will never be.

Funny thing is, in JRs Patreon video with MP. JR isn't a numbers guy at all. When MP was explaining that stuff to him, he didnt even want to think like that in musical terms or he'll get lost...like 23/8.

[Stadler]

I have to think about Jordan in that way.   Maybe I'm being too careless in my words; I don't listen to Jordan and think "wow, that's some impossible shit in 34/9 time, with inversions".   There are a moments where he's playing something in unison with John and I think "wow, that ain't easy".   But it's not the same.  Sometimes I listen to Mangini and I'm thinking "where's my friggin' slide rule. Should I be taking notes here?  Is this on the test?"   And it's music; I want to get goosebumps.  I want to almost drive off the road because I'm airdrumming.  I want to be hoarse at the end of the song because I've been singing along to it with no regard for my vocal chords. 

This isn't easy to explain since a lot of it is feel.

[TAC]

I guess there is music made for musicians only, but that's not really Dream Theater, is it? 

Is it? My memories of those early I&W shows was that it was indeed music made by and for musicians. I mean, sure the songs had general appeal, but there was a virtuosity about it that appealed to musicians.

[CDrice]

I have to think about Jordan in that way.   Maybe I'm being too careless in my words; I don't listen to Jordan and think "wow, that's some impossible shit in 34/9 time, with inversions".   There are a moments where he's playing something in unison with John and I think "wow, that ain't easy".   But it's not the same.  Sometimes I listen to Mangini and I'm thinking "where's my friggin' slide rule. Should I be taking notes here?  Is this on the test?"   And it's music; I want to get goosebumps.  I want to almost drive off the road because I'm airdrumming.  I want to be hoarse at the end of the song because I've been singing along to it with no regard for my vocal chords. 

This isn't easy to explain since a lot of it is feel.

That's certainly a hard thing to explain because as you said, it's all feel and perception of the music. Personnally even when he explain some of his drumming parts and he goes on about how he plays a pattern with a hand, another one with the other and then layers 10 more with each of his toes, I never felt the things you mentionned at all from Mangini's drumming. He did a lot of things that I find really cool and exciting, and also plenty of parts that I feel are straightforward. Some of my favorite parts of his that come to mind are S2N as a whole and the long drum fill in Illumination Theory that leads into Live, Die, Kill. Are they complex? Is there any weird polyrhythmic stuff going on with them? Maybe, I don't really know. But if there is, I don't feel it. And why do I like them? I'm not sure. I just do. Although I can say I find S2N to be one of the grooviest song that the band has ever written. And not just in the Mangini era, but as a whole.

With that said, I'm not at all saying you're wrong. When I listen to music I don't necessarely listen for the complicated stuff either. I might pick up some of it, but I just enjoy and feel the music as a whole. It's always fascinating to see how people can react differently to the same thing. It's just a reminder that tastes, feel and perception can vary wildly from people to people.

On another note, I talked about the way Mangini will explain his drum parts. I've always wondered if he meticulously build his parts thinking about all those concepts or if he just naturally plays that stuff and afterwards he analyzes it. I imagine that at his level, he might not even consciously thing about some of it, but I don't really know.

[MHStrawn]

I would like to know why you think the lyrics are cringy? And why you don't enjoy the "uninspired ballad-like moments"?

But, if you have the time to take to put on good headphones and escape into your imagination into the story of The Astonishing is where you can enjoy each piece of music.

First question...they're cringy because they're so bad, bloated and sophomoric. Also extremely bloated, taking far too long to make a point. Compare how many words JP needs to set the stage to how Neal Peart did it in 2112. If you think they're fine, hey, to each their own.  I literally found myself cringing or rolling my eyes at so many lyrics from this album..

Second point....one of things that really annoys me about those who like TA is they often say those who don't simply don't listen to the album properly. First, it's highly insulting to suggest I'm incapable or haven't done so. Second, if the album requires some difficult-to-attain mindset in order to properly enjoy then I'd suggest it's a flawed piece.

[TAC]

I think it can be flawed and amazing at the same time.

It's a lot like 6 D's. Disc 1 is incredible and on it's own rates pretty high. Disc 2 is truly forgettable (IMHO), and if included brings down the album in the rankings.

Likewise, my Astonishing Abridged is incredible, and while I enjoy the entire thing as a whole, there's plenty to trim if I want to make meaningful playlist.