- " The Astonishing " - One Year -- er, SEVEN YEARS On.

[Ben_Jamin]

Also, the Wilhem Scream.

Huh??  I mean, I know there's a "scream" at the end (although it's really just a startled reaction), but it's Nicholas.

The Wilhelm Scream is the name of a stock scream sound effect.  It's been used in hundreds of films and TV shows.  My kids and I pick it out whenever we hear it.

Wow, I mean, I knew there were sounds bites used over and over throughout different media, but I didn't know about this specific one, in so many of the movies I've seen.  This video has me cracking up right now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdbYsoEasio It makes me wonder if this is done to just add in an easily findable sound bite of a scream or if it's like a cult classic thing where it's added purposely just to have the Wilhelm Scream in the movie.

That's a hilarious compilation. It's funny because they don't fit at all. I think the best one was Reservoir Dogs. 

I actually heard it in Mortal Kombat:Annihilation, in the Krypt, first before I heard it in SFAM.

[Anguyen92]

Well, four years later, while I still like the majority of the Astonishing, I do agree that it can be a slog to listen to it for two hours straight, and sadly, unless I'm out on a trip that lasts for two hours, there are other music that I would prefer to listen to for two hours straight.

Take Ayreon's The Human Equation.  To me, that's a great bar in terms of creating a solid story and incorporating prog-metal.  It wasn't a balls-to-the walls album as well.  It also included folky, poppier, and soft acoustic elements at times and none really took issues to it in comparison to those that had issues with the softer aspects that the Astonishing had.  I wonder why.

[Kotowboy]

I love the album and have the 4LP boxset as it was £40 instead of £80 so i snapped it up...

But i've never listened to all 130 minutes in one sitting.

[Ben_Jamin]

Take Ayreon's The Human Equation.  To me, that's a great bar in terms of creating a solid story and incorporating prog-metal.  It wasn't a balls-to-the walls album as well.  It also included folky, poppier, and soft acoustic elements at times and none really took issues to it in comparison to those that had issues with the softer aspects that the Astonishing had.  I wonder why.

Because it wasn't composed the same way as The Astonishing was composed. Arjen makes music, then decides which project the music best suits. Transitus, was originally meant to be a Star One, but, it ended up an Ayreon album. Plus, Arjen has 3 albums prior to have perfected the sound and feel he wants.

The point of The Astonishing wasn't to write a Prog-Metal epic concept. The point was to write a Rock Opera, utilizing Prog-Metal. JP and JR got together to write down THEMES, then take those Themes and expand upon them. The concept called for that music style. the concept wasn't about the War of The Astonshing, It's about Gabriel and Faythe, trying to stop the war from escalating further. It took Nefaryus' Daughter almost dying for him to realize. Music is strong, as it, healed his Daughter. After, they "Power Down" the NOMACS.

I am telling you, I really enjoy the concept, and it's among the best I have heard. The story is immense, and JP did an excellent job of creating this world.

I understand people won't like the story concept, but that's fine. I want to discuss more of the story. So to the ones who do like The Astonishing. What interests you into the Story?

[ytserush]

Here's what Ross Jennings from Haken recently said about TA:

I have huge admiration for Dream Theater’s 13th album, The Astonishing not least for it’s hugely ambitious nature of fusing music, theater and science fiction literature, but indeed by inviting the listener into a whole universe of multimedia in order to consume their story, it is suddenly so much more than your average rock ’n’ roll concept album.

As someone who also writes music and lyrics through a very visual perspective, I truly appreciated the layers that were packed into forming the concept, and anyone who cared to explore this world in details that transcend the music and lyrics were truly rewarded.

After all, The Astonishing is a difficult record to appreciate casually, and while it’s not devoid of many signature Dream Theater musical traits, and contains a handful of really strong stand alone singles, it is, and must be approached as, a fully fledged piece of musical theater that demands the listener's time, effort and close attention. I always appreciate the record more with this in mind.

“People just don’t have the time for music any more” was the ultimate statement here about how music is consumed in a modern age and with an album as involved and epic as The Astonishing, I feel it proved its own case in point.

I’ve always wondered if The Astonishing may have polarized the hardcore fanbase less had this been approached as a more collaborative project a la Ayreon or even if the focus had been steered more toward an elaborate stage production with a variety of actors, singers, props and pyro? Having said this, James LaBrie gets a special mention from me for his truly admirable performance and portrayal of various characters.

And as for the legacy this album will leave, I guess time will really tell. I still return to this album and discover new things to take away from the experience, and while at the point of release we all may have been expecting another Scenes from a Memory, time has allowed us to reflect upon and appreciate the versatility this band has at communicating concept albums in unique ways.

(https://loudwire.com/best-13th-albums-rock-metal-bands/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral)

I think this is spot on and I bolded the last part because it echoes something that I had been thinking about TA for a while. I think The Astonishing would've been far better received by the general fanbase if DT had made more concept albums throughout their career, before 2016. Let me explain: up until DT12, their only real concept album was SFAM, which is largely considered one of their best albums, if not their best. Then, announcing TA as another concept album inmediately brought up comparisons between it and SFAM, because it was the "standard" for DT concept albums. Had they made one or two more concept albums before TA, there wouldn't have been that much pressure to make an album that tops, or is in pair with, SFAM (which the band wasn't trying to do anyway, but fans' expectations surely went that road), as they would've been much more "common" in DT's catalog.

I've NEVER had a problem with the concept, I just don't think it was executed as well as it could have been (lyrically.)

[hunnus2000]

Technically, there are a lot of DT's albums that could and should be considered "concept". Octavarium, Black Clouds, Six Degrees come to mind. Rush's 2112 is considered a concept album but really the suite of songs on the song 2112 which can be considered a concept.

Personally, I think DT should have marketed it as a rock opera instead of a concept album. That may have set different expectations.

[gzarruk]

Technically, there are a lot of DT's albums that could and should be considered "concept". Octavarium, Black Clouds, Six Degrees come to mind.

How so?

Personally, I think DT should have marketed it as a rock opera instead of a concept album. That may have set different expectations.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they did.

[hunnus2000]

Technically, there are a lot of DT's albums that could and should be considered "concept". Octavarium, Black Clouds, Six Degrees come to mind.

How so?

Personally, I think DT should have marketed it as a rock opera instead of a concept album. That may have set different expectations.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but they did.

A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.

As for the marketing of TA, I remember seeing the word concept being thrown around more than rock opera but I guess that's an anecdotal assessment as there were many news outlets covering the release.

[gzarruk]

A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.

As for the marketing of TA, I remember seeing the word concept being thrown around more than rock opera but I guess that's an anecdotal assessment as there were many news outlets covering the release.

SDOIT isn't a concept album, as disc 1 has nothing to do with the mental illness theme. Disc two is about that, but it's, basically, a song split in different tracks.

Octavarium does have a lot of nuggets, but that doesn't mean it is a concept album either, nor the band members intended to make it one or consider it one. Black Clouds is even farther from being one, as there's a common approach to lyric writing, but that's as far as it gets, and they're no strangers to doing this, just look at what Jordan just said about DT15 (currently being worked on):

(DT15 will not be a concept album, but according to an interview with Jordan, they do follow an interesting basic idea, as he mentioned. (and that he did not reveal as of yet)

Albums can follow a "theme" or common approach, but still they don't count as "concept albums".

As for the marketing for TA, I remember the original tour poster leaked before it was intended for release, so they hurried in announcing "The Astonishing Live, a Rock Opera by Dream Theater".

[KevShmev]

Yep, DT has two concept albums: Scenes from a Memory and The Astonishing.  That's it, that's the list.

[darkshade]

Scenes, SDoIT, ToT, and 8vm are each roughly a quarter of one big meta album, and 8vm is all about concluding it, with the first 7 tracks leading up to the title track. So technically all 4 are concept albums, Scenes being a concept album within a concept album (and Six Degrees being a concept song/album within a concept album within a concept album.)

[Cool Chris]

The idea of the "concept" album is one of the most annoying things I find with this genre of music.

[hunnus2000]

I guess my question is, what do others consider a concept album? While Octavarium didn't start out as a concept album, it sure turned into one. The theme of using the numbers 8 and 5, is all over the place and even the album jacket is littered with the references. This is obviously not an accident.

It sounds like people only accept a concept album as telling a story throughput the album

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Concept albums, or in a wider sense of the word, conceptually tied music is not something that just happens in prog or metal. That's basically an idea that's been around forever (any fans of opera around?), so I don't really feel why someone would be bothered by it.

True, popular music has had a song-oriented approach in majority, but one of the things I like about the whole "progressive" philosophy is that of trying to take stuff from other genres, styles and ways of thinking music.

[IDontNotDoThings]

A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.

I'm pretty sure every song with lyrics is a concept song to some extent.

I get what you're saying, but with SDOIT being a suite, it feels a bit inaccurate to call the album a concept album. Awake for example has the A Mind Beside Itself suite, but that doesn't make it a concept album (unless you buy the Spider-Man theories ).

Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.

[gzarruk]

Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.

I remember that, back then when the tracklist was just revealed, I posted a comment on a DT-related Facebook page about how interesting it was that all songs would be much shorter this time (given the track count) and some random dude started claiming I wasn't a true DT fan because "they obviously only write long songs and I obviously had no clue what I was talking about"

[IDontNotDoThings]

Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.

I remember that, back then when the tracklist was just revealed, I posted a comment on a DT-related Facebook page about how interesting it was that all songs would be much shorter this time (given the track count) and some random dude started claiming I wasn't a true DT fan because "they obviously only write long songs and I obviously had no clue what I was talking about"

I wonder what that guy has to say about that now.

[Setlist Scotty]

A concept album/song consists around common themes that are achieved either instrumentally, lyrically or compositionally. We ALL know about the concepts in Octavarium (and shame on DT fans that don't know). With Black Clouds the theme lyrically was about life events each of the members went through and SDOIT was about mental illness. So yes Octavarium and Black Clouds are indeed concept albums while SDOIT is a concept song.

No. A concept album tells a lyrical story throughout the whole album. None of those albums have that. In DT's catalog, only SFaM and TA are concept albums. Even though certain melodies of songs might be reused in other songs (something MP in particular loved to do), this does not make a whole album featuring these songs a concept album.

Had disc 2 of SDoIT been released on it's own, then it might be considered a concept album, but even then there would be some debate, since the stories for each individual are not interconnected with each other.

In interviews around the time it was released, MP himself stated that 8v is *not* a concept album, but rather that it was thematic, comparing it to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, which is also *not* a concept album.

Most of the songs in BCaSL follow a similar theme, but none of them are related to each other. And ARoP doesn't fit the theme whatsoever. So no.
 
 

Awake for example has the A Mind Beside Itself suite, but that doesn't make it a concept album (unless you buy the Spider-Man theories ).

WAT

[Ben_Jamin]

True, popular music has had a song-oriented approach in majority, but one of the things I like about the whole "progressive" philosophy is that of trying to take stuff from other genres, styles and ways of thinking music.

That's actually a great description for Progressive Metal, and how I happen to see the term "Progressive Metal".

I'll add it's taking these other musical theory ideas, and utilizing them within the Metal genre.

Back on topic, I don't think TA being marketed as a concept album had much of an effect on expectations, as there were several things revealed before release that made it clear that it wasn't going to be something like Octavarium where the concept is purely thematic. Off the top of my head, I remember the character portraits being introduced, the map of the Northern Empire being revealed, the setting of the story being briefly explained, the whole "choose your side" thing being the very first thing we knew about it, & of course, the tracklist having far more songs than any other DT album before it. I think you would have to be a very casual fan to not realise that this was going to be a story-based rock opera & not just a thematic concept album.

Thank You. That's what I said too. I don't understand, if you actually did follow the release, how you can not expect the story and concept was going to be this massive Rock Opera.

I guess my question is, what do others consider a concept album? While Octavarium didn't start out as a concept album, it sure turned into one. The theme of using the numbers 8 and 5, is all over the place and even the album jacket is littered with the references. This is obviously not an accident.

It sounds like people only accept a concept album as telling a story throughput the album

That is what a concept album is known as though. What you are talking about with Octavarium and 6DOIT, and even ToT, is, what I would consider, Thematic Albums. 6DOIT has the theme of "Human Struggles". TGP being Personal Addictions, BF Spiritual Struggles, Misunderstood Communication Struggles, TGD World Problems, and Disappear The Final Struggle, all the while ending with the massive 42-min Epic 6DOIT about Struggles of the Human Psyche.

But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.


The difference I feel is Rock Opera and Concept Album. Are what we consider "Concept Albums" in actuality "Rock Operas". As they have characters, a setting, a plot, a narrative to be told. For me to consider an album a "Rock Opera", it has to have these things, along with having the ability to be turned into an actual Opera or Musical. Hadestown is a great example of this, it went from an album, and expanded extensively into a Musical. Some "Rock Operas", turned into "Movie Productions", Tommy, The Wall, Subterranea, Imaginarium , Transitus ( Those videos got me wanting one).

[IDontNotDoThings]

Awake for example has the A Mind Beside Itself suite, but that doesn't make it a concept album (unless you buy the Spider-Man theories ).

WAT

It's an old running joke on this forum. I can't seem to access the original thread, but here is the oldest thread I can find with people talking about it, which has a post quoting the post where it originated.

[Setlist Scotty]

But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.

I see what you're saying and according to the dictionary definition, you're right. But that's the same as saying that "alternative" music is any form of music that's not the mainstream, because that's what "alternative" means in the dictionary. And yet alternative is a specific genre of music, and has been since the 90s. The same thing is true as to what a "concept album" is, like it or not.
 
 

It's an old running joke on this forum. I can't seem to access the original thread, but here is the oldest thread I can find with people talking about it, which has a post quoting the post where it originated.

Will check it out later.   

[Ben_Jamin]

But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.

I see what you're saying and according to the dictionary definition, you're right. But that's the same as saying that "alternative" music is any form of music that's not the mainstream, because that's what "alternative" means in the dictionary. And yet alternative is a genre of music, and has been since the 90s. The same thing is true as to what a "concept album" is, like it or not.

Yup. I even said that in the same post.  That's why it's funny.

[Setlist Scotty]

But it is funny though, thematic albums could be considered concept albums by the definition of "Concept". It states "Organized around a main idea or THEME". So, Thematic is a concept album.

I see what you're saying and according to the dictionary definition, you're right. But that's the same as saying that "alternative" music is any form of music that's not the mainstream, because that's what "alternative" means in the dictionary. And yet alternative is a genre of music, and has been since the 90s. The same thing is true as to what a "concept album" is, like it or not.

Yup. I even said that in the same post.  That's why it's funny.

D'oh! That's what I get for misreading part of your post late at night! 

[bosk1]

Scott, I am shocked that you have been so close to MP all these years, and never knew Awake was a concept album about Spiderman.  I seriously call your fandom into question.  What next?  You gonna try and tell us you didn't know BCSL is a concept album about cannibalism?

[Setlist Scotty]

Scott, I am shocked that you have been so close to MP all these years, and never knew Awake was a concept album about Spiderman.  I seriously call your fandom into question.  What next?  You gonna try and tell us you didn't know BCSL is a concept album about cannibalism?

I better hand in my card. I'm obviously not the fan I once was! 

[hunnus2000]

So no - I don't accept you all's definition of what a concept album is. If you look at the history of concept albums they are exactly how I described. But since we are talking semantics, I guess we will not agree.

As far as the supposed genre of "alternative music" - I think those days have passed I remember when that style of music became a thing and it referred to other forms of music not being labeled as top 40. Other labels not being Capital or RCA but smaller labels, were signing other bands and having success (it was a good thing). In fact, Rush during this time period asked Nirvana around the Counterparts album to come on tour with them and they declined because they were and alternative band. Neil Peart mused that it was strange because they were charting in the top 40.

And so it goes......

[bosk1]

So no - I don't accept you all's definition of what a concept album is.

You don't have to accept it, but that is the common definition, so you are kinda out of luck discussing it with music fans if you want to come up with your own custom meanings for commonly-understood terms.

[Ben_Jamin]

Chosen

My god, that ending with the video background.  Also JLB is in pretty good form here for this song. 


I guess we just have to settle for this Bootleg Youtube compilation...

The Astonishing

[hunnus2000]

So no - I don't accept you all's definition of what a concept album is.

You don't have to accept it, but that is the common definition, so you are kinda out of luck discussing it with music fans if you want to come up with your own custom meanings for commonly-understood terms.

No - the definition isn't a commonly understood term. In this case it's a subjective term and in terms of art, we can look at the art in any way we choose. That's what interpretation in all about.

[bosk1]

  No, the definitions of words aren't subjective.  They are what they are.  You can subjectively interpret art however you choose.  But the definitions of words aren't subject to your, or my, or anyone else's subjective interpretation.  That isn't how language works.

[hunnus2000]

 

You were quick on this! I knew that would get your goat! 

Yes language can be interpreted in different ways. Bear market - bear chases me. An album has a theme, an album has a concept........Shall I go on?

[Ben_Jamin]

You were quick on this! I knew that would get your goat! 

Yes language can be interpreted in different ways. Bear market - bear chases me. An album has a theme, an album has a concept........Shall I go on?

Words can also change their meaning overtime. Some words don't even use, what once was common, definition of the word. Like...(I would say the word but I might get banned...)

Nowadays, "Concept Album" is termed as an album where there is a narrative, or a story, across the album. Sometimes connecting, sometimes not. People collectively define and view it as that definition, and it is what it is. Nothing you say will change that fact.

[bosk1]

You were quick on this! I knew that would get your goat! 

Yes language can be interpreted in different ways. Bear market - bear chases me. An album has a theme, an album has a concept........Shall I go on?

Nah, the goat is in the pasture where it belongs.  I just checked.

But thanks for making my point for me.  Yes, a "bear market" has a specific meaning that has nothing whatsoever to do with an actual "bear" that might chase you.  Same word, but a completely different usage that has a completely different meaning.  Just like the term "concept album" has a completely different usage and meaning that "album that has a concept."  None of those are subjective.  They mean specific things.  Again, that's how words work.

[KevShmev]

Chosen

My god, that ending with the video background.  Also JLB is in pretty good form here for this song.


I guess we just have to settle for this Bootleg Youtube compilation...

The Astonishing

Yep, and that brings up another point: The Astonishing tour, based on all of the footage I have seen and the few shows I have been to, is by far the best JLB has sounded live in the last 10 years, probably because most of the songs on that album are in the range where he sounds best.  Would have been cool to get that documented. 

[Ben_Jamin]

Chosen

My god, that ending with the video background.  Also JLB is in pretty good form here for this song.


I guess we just have to settle for this Bootleg Youtube compilation...

The Astonishing

Yep, and that brings up another point: The Astonishing tour, based on all of the footage I have seen and the few shows I have been to, is by far the best JLB has sounded live in the last 10 years, probably because most of the songs on that album are in the range where he sounds best.  Would have been cool to get that documented.

Yeah. He was fantastic. Ironically, it was on a tour that many didn't see because they didn't like the album. Also, these songs were really suited for his range, and didn't call for him to go all out and high with his vocals.

I am one of those that is disappointed we didn't get a live album. But life is a bitch. (I like how Michael Kiske said that after Keeper of The Seven Keys, from Live at Wacken. Apparently, he was sick and man, even though he tried, he just couldn't hit those highs, and he knew it, and felt bad for the crowd).