John Petrucci: Does he have a distinct style?

[bl5150]

No need to be sorry     Just my opinion , as someone who (back in the day) played plenty of material from both artists.   There is such a thing as a left hand too      I think these days that Vai has lost some of his right hand proficiency which is no surprise really.  You can see Petrucci's accuracy coming off in recent years and Vai is 6 or 7 years older.

[erwinrafael]

And Vai's virtuosity and range of styles and techniques is incorporated in the compositions. Whispering A Prayer, for example, is an amazing composition showcasing different techniques over a singing beautiful melody.

No need to be sorry     Just my opinion , as someone who (back in the day) played plenty of material from both artists.   There is such a thing as a left hand too      I think these days that Vai has lost some of his right hand proficiency which is no surprise really.  You can see Petrucci's accuracy coming off in recent years and Vai is 6 or 7 years older.

When Vai released The Story of Light around 2012, it was sobering to read Vai talking about his age and how it's changing his playing. I love that album, with Vai delving on some bluesy stuff and gospel. Then there's Creamsicle Sunset which is like an old 1950s Hawaiian guitar compositikn.

[Evai]

  I think these days that Vai has lost some of his right hand proficiency which is no surprise really.  You can see Petrucci's accuracy coming off in recent years and Vai is 6 or 7 years older.

And there's also the fact that Steve went to that dodgy hospital in Argentina, where they injected coagulated blood into his right arm and messed up his picking. Basically the guitarists version of JLB's food poisoning...

I lost a little bit of the picking in my right hand. So I had to change my style a bit because I can’t do that fast picking scale kind of stuff anymore – which is good, because I don’t really like how fast picking scales sound. You don’t really hear it in my music, you know?

I’m not concerned about picking fast, I’ve done enough of it. I plan on continuing to evolve my playing, I just hope it’s not a life threatening situation that causes me to do so,

[Siddhartha]

Here is John trying a very distinct style.

https://www.facebook.com/johnpetrucciFB/videos/1383452105040131/


 

[ReaperKK]

that's some mighty fine shredding

[Stewie]

Just to clarify some of my earlier posts - I'm sure Vai could become as proficient with alternate picking if he wanted to. If he really applied himself, sure. When talking about all these incredibly talented individuals, I'm sure any one of them could learn to do what is outside of their comfort zone - they're all certainly talented enough. It's more a matter of what they're interested in doing.

I wasn't at all saying earlier that Vai isn't capable of being as proficient with his picking technique as Petrucci - I'm strictly coming from a "as of right now" point of view. Presently, his picking technique isn't in the same league as Petrucci's, and it never has been, simply because alternate picking isn't his forte. It's not a judgement, and it doesn't make him any less of an artist! It's simply my observation, as I have studied both of their techniques closely over the years. As I said, they're my top two influences as a guitarist.

As artists, they use techniques they feel most comfortable with to express their ideas. Petrucci is very much a "picker"; more along the lines of Steve Morse, Al Di Meola, Paul Gilbert, Yngwie Malmsteen, etc. He comes from that kind of school of thought, and uses the "pick every note" approach. That's not to say he doesn't use legato or anything, it's just that alternate picking is (and always has been) his preferred picking technique.

Guys like Vai and Satch use the legato approach as their main way of phrasing melodic ideas. Unlike many, I consider legato to be a "picking technique", as the fretting hand fingers have to literally pick the strings to produce sound, and have to work harder. Petrucci is also very comfortable with this technique. The best example would probably be the unison from In The Name Of God, but another worthy mention would be the Trial of Tears solo. So, what I was saying earlier is that, while Petrucci can easily use legato just as proficiently as Vai, I have not as of yet seen Vai use alternate picking as proficiently as Petrucci. Not because he can't, but simply because it's not his thing. Also, the Vai quote posted earlier really helps putting that in perspective!

I too have had to suffer from arm/wrist problems, as I'm sure many guitarists have (due to wear and tear, and age!). It's a very humbling and frustrating experience, and it does force one to adapt. So, I definitely sympathize with Vai on that front.

Anyway, here are some more fun technique trivia (some more obvious than others):
-Petrucci taps using his middle and ring finger of his picking hand, just like Vai.
-Satch and Paul Gilbert tap primarily using their index finger of the picking hand, with the exception of Satch's two-handed tapping
-Both Paul Gilbert and Guthrie Govan prefer the string-skipping approach to arpeggios, as opposed to sweep picking. It's cool, but requires a lot of stretching! I guess that's fine if you have giant hands/fingers like they do lol.
-Yngwie is known for his sweeping and fast alternate picking, but did you know he actually incorporates a lot of economy picking into his playing? While he does alternate pick most of his lines, he uses economy picking when transitioning from one string to another (basically the Frank Gambale method)
-Zakk Wylde is also pretty damn good at economy picking.

That's all for now, haha.

[mikeyd23]

Here is John trying a very distinct style.

https://www.facebook.com/johnpetrucciFB/videos/1383452105040131/


 

 

[erwinrafael]

Oh... Come on... GG's solo in Steven Wilson's Regret #9 is a piece of art, he can write a lot of beautiful things as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaH2C2Qe97Y

It's a lovely solo. The buildup from Wilson's solo gave it a dramatic boost that enhanced its impact

For some reason, this solo always reminds me of JP's The Spirit Carries On solo. For me, the approach sounds the same.

[Architeuthis]

Stewie, I've been playing guitar for years and still don't know what economy picking is. Can anyone help me out with that? 

[Siddhartha]

Is a way of picking in which everytime you change the string you are playing you do it picking in the same direction of the string you are going to.

So to go from a lower pitched string to a higher pitched string you always use a downstroke.
To go from a higher pitched string to a lower pitched one you always use an upstroke.

If you are playing in only one string you play regular alternate picking.

They call it economy because you have to move your right hand less to change strings. The advantage is that it is more efficient. The disavantage is that the physical sense of rhythm in the picking hand that you would have with strict alternate picking is lost.

[Architeuthis]

Thanks for the explanation, well done! I've used that technique alot. I'm just bad on some terminology.

[jsbru]

I find that economy picking is hard if you actually try to do it, but if you just let yourself pick naturally and not think about it, your hand naturally does this to save space and energy.

[Stewie]

Stewie, I've been playing guitar for years and still don't know what economy picking is. Can anyone help me out with that?

Pretty much what Siddhartha said, in short. To elaborate a little more on that - it's a form of sweep picking, where you use the momentum of the pick to "follow through" into the next string. Some people also refer to it as "directional-based picking", meaning; the direction in which you pick (whether down or up) is determined by the direction in which you are heading. So, if you are on a lower string and on your way to a higher string, you follow thru with a down stroke, as Siddhartha put it. If you are on a higher string on your way to a lower string, you follow thru with an up stroke.

It is very important, however, to note that economy picking really only works if we are dealing with odd numbers. Many people will refer to the "three notes per string" scale format to use economy picking, which is fine, however the actual science behind it is based on the odd number of plucks per string - not necessarily notes (because you could hold one note with your fretting hand and pick it three times, as opposed to picking three separate notes).

With strict alternate picking, a problem is encountered with "three notes per string" scale shapes. Because, you have to change picking direction and hop over the string to get to the next. So, lets say you start on the low E string and pick down-up-down; that puts your pick right between the low E and A strings, at which point you have to hop over the A string in order to pick up, to continue your pattern (since you left off on a down stroke on the low E). When you pick the A string, you pick up-down-up (opposite of how you started your pattern), and leave off on an up stroke. This means your pick is moving away from the A string, at which point you have to hop back over the A string, in order to get to the D string to continue your pattern. So, in a sense, you're working against yourself - constantly breaking the flow of the direction of your pick.

For this reason, the use of strict alternate picking with odd groups can be a nightmare for some. Obviously players like Petrucci, Steve Morse, Al Di Meola, Paul Gilbert - they have it down. For others, no matter how much time is spent practicing to a metronome, it simply is unnatural. Players like Yngwie Malmsteen, Frank Gambale, Zakk Wylde - they still pick a lot - the difference is, they use economy picking as a means to flow from one string right into the next, without having to change picking directions. Hence the term "economy picking". It's more economic, and you don't to move as much. That's why if you study Yngwie's picking hand closely, you'll notice that it barely moves.

Now, if we're dealing with even numbers, strict alternate picking is a breeze, simply because you never have to change picking directions as you transition from one string to the next. It's just 'down-up-down-up' (or vice versa), and so on and so forth. I myself use a mixture of alternate and economy picking, and have been doing it for so long that I don't necessarily consciously think about it; at this point I switch back and forth, and it's pretty natural for me.

When I first started using economy picking, however, it definitely took some getting used to. It's definitely a challenge to control the rate at which your pick rakes thru the strings, and to make sure that it is synced up with your fretting hand. But, as with anything, with enough time and practice, you can get it to be pretty smooth and seamless. Also, if you like playing fast, you can achieve tempos with the use of economy picking that are very rarely possible to pull off with strict alternate picking.

All in all, I'm not saying it's a better technique, but it certainly is efficient. It's pretty smooth and slick sounding, so if you want that crisp percussive attack, probably should use alternate picking instead.

Lastly, it's a very common technique among jazz players. Guys like Joe Pass, George Benson, Bireli Lagrene, Pat Metheny, Mike Stern - all great examples of economy pickers.

EDIT: Forgot to add that, aside from odd groups, it also only works when dealing with adjacent strings. It doesn't help with string-skipping, which is why it's still really important to practice your alternate picking

[jsbru]

I was going to say, the Erotomania quintuplet solo is a good place to start if you want to try economy picking.

[Stewie]

I was going to say, the Erotomania quintuplet solo is a good place to start if you want to try economy picking.

True, however JP alternate picks it - makes it even harder lol. But yeah, that's a good example of a phrase that lends itself nicely for economy picking.

[jsbru]

I was going to say, the Erotomania quintuplet solo is a good place to start if you want to try economy picking.

True, however JP alternate picks it - makes it even harder lol. But yeah, that's a good example of a phrase that lends itself nicely for economy picking.

I don't know exactly what I do.  I mean, my strategy is just to pick fast and what happens happens, and if I miss a stroke, I just hope the ultra-low action on my guitar combined with the jumbo frets combined with the hot pickups combined with the Mesa Boogie distortion means I can fret a note with my left hand and it basically sounds comparable to a picked note. 

It's all I can do....

[ReaperKK]

Toss on some reverb and slight delay and that's what I do

[Elite]

I find that economy picking is hard if you actually try to do it, but if you just let yourself pick naturally and not think about it, your hand naturally does this to save space and energy.

that's absolutely not true; I spent a whole year overhauling my picking style to economy picking.

also, legato is best


and in response to the thread title: yes.

[bosk1]

Stewie, I like your explanations overall.  But this description kinda bothers me:

Unlike many, I consider legato to be a "picking technique", as the fretting hand fingers have to literally pick the strings to produce sound, and have to work harder.

I'm probably splitting hairs, but that description just doesn't feel right to me because picking is a different technique and attacks the string in a very different way than legato techniques (I use the plural because, really, legato really involves arguably multiple techniques).  Picking causes the string to vibrate from striking the string from the side, which produces a different attack.  Legato causes the string to vibrate in a different way, and produces a different sound.  For instance, a hammer-on, by suddenly and violently fretting the string cause vibration simply by the sudden, sharp impact of the string against the fret, which produces a very different attack and sound from striking the string with a plectrum.  It is a completely different action as well as sound.  A pull-off is also different, although some pull-off techniques can sort of mimmick picking by slightly pulling the string to the side and releasing.  But still different.

Again, maybe at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  But it still isn't really the same as "picking" in that the fingers aren't "picking the strings to produce sound" as you said in your post.  The fingers are taking action that produces the sound, but it isn't a picking action.

[Stewie]

that's absolutely not true; I spent a whole year overhauling my picking style to economy picking.

also, legato is best

If legato is your favorite, and what works best for you, that's cool. I myself try to avoid thinking in those terms; I like to keep an open mind, and try to avoid the "this technique is better than that technique" mentality. For me, it's whatever technique lends itself best for the melodic idea I'm trying to execute. Sometimes it's legato; sometimes alternate picking, or economy picking, etc. Just depends on the moment.

At the end of the day, techniques are nothing more than tools for us to use artistically. I think to believe that any one technique is superior to all others is a bit narrow minded, and can stunt one's artistic means of expression. It has always baffled me how some amazing players out there are so comfortable with openly speaking against this or that technique.

For example, a few years back, I got to attend an Al Di Meola clinic which was, overall, a great experience. When asked about his picking technique, and why he sticks with alternate picking everything, he responded, "because I'm not a lazy guitarist." There was an awkward bit of silence, and then he elaborated, saying that the use of legato and sweep picking was for guitarists who are either too lazy to practice, or for those who simply don't have the talent and potential to use alternate picking the way he does. He also had no problem saying that he's really an "exception", and that few can actually achieve his level of alternate picking proficiency - which I thought was funny, seeing as how we were at a clinic...where the artist should motivate the young players in the audience...not the opposite lol. But, that's Di Meola for you. I love his music, love his playing, but unfortunately he's very strong minded about his way of playing, and has expressed in numerous interviews that alternate picking is the one and only authentic picking technique out there. Seems absurd, and a little disrespectful to his peers, but oh well.

Contrary to that, I was at a Steve Morse clinic, where he got asked "how come you don't do much sweep picking?". His reply was basically "because, as much as I'd like to, I'm terrible at it!", and everyone laughed. He also referenced Yngwie and a couple others, saying how much they blow his mind, and how he's amazed at the technique. But, his way of saying "it's not my thing" was way more classy than Di Meola's lol.

[Stewie]

Stewie, I like your explanations overall.  But this description kinda bothers me:

Unlike many, I consider legato to be a "picking technique", as the fretting hand fingers have to literally pick the strings to produce sound, and have to work harder.

I'm probably splitting hairs, but that description just doesn't feel right to me because picking is a different technique and attacks the string in a very different way than legato techniques (I use the plural because, really, legato really involves arguably multiple techniques).  Picking causes the string to vibrate from striking the string from the side, which produces a different attack.  Legato causes the string to vibrate in a different way, and produces a different sound.  For instance, a hammer-on, by suddenly and violently fretting the string cause vibration simply by the sudden, sharp impact of the string against the fret, which produces a very different attack and sound from striking the string with a plectrum.  It is a completely different action as well as sound.  A pull-off is also different, although some pull-off techniques can sort of mimmick picking by slightly pulling the string to the side and releasing.  But still different.

Again, maybe at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter.  But it still isn't really the same as "picking" in that the fingers aren't "picking the strings to produce sound" as you said in your post.  The fingers are taking action that produces the sound, but it isn't a picking action.

Well, you're absolutely right - legato isn't really a picking technique in the traditional sense, no. Obviously picking is traditionally a concept associated with the picking hand, and with using a pick. What I mean is, when you take into account that a pull-off isn't simply removing the fretting hand finger from the string - but that it requires a "plucking force" - from that angle, to me, it's like your fretting hand fingers are "plucking" the strings, by pulling off with force.

The reason why I look at it that way is because I do a lot of finger-picking (coming from a classical/flamenco background), and in that context, you pluck the strings using your fingers. So, when looking closely at legato with the fretting hand, it's kind of similar, because your fingers are pulling at the strings to produce sound; they just happen to be pulling from the opposite direction. If I were to look at my index, middle and ring fingers of my picking hand (using the p-i-m-a method), as they rest against the strings and pluck, they pluck in an upwards motion. The thumb plucks downwards, of course, but fingers i-m-a pluck upwards (unless flicking outwards to execute rasgueado, used frequently in flamenco).

By that logic, my fretting hand fingers do a very similar motion when executing legato. They simply tend to pull off the string downwards, instead of upwards. Perhaps I should've said that I consider legato to be a type of plucking technique, instead of a type of picking technique, as there is no use of an actual pick in the fretting hand. So, while you're right that the fretting hand fingers don't pick the strings (obviously not with a pick) in legato technique, they most certainly do pluck them. In that sense, legato is very much a plucking technique.

It basically boils down to terminology. Both plucking and picking entail striking the string, so we're basically discussing terminology. Plucking refers to striking the strings with your fingers; picking refers to striking the strings with a pick. Anyway, that's just the way I like to look at it.

[Architeuthis]

Great discussion on picking techniques. Alot of great musicians on this forum to learn from! I also have learned Alot of cool tricks on guitar just by watching John Petrucci play live and on the dvds.  He has indirectly given me alot of guitar lessons and helped me to improve alot. Thank you JP for your inspiration! 
  I've also learned Alot from Alex Lifeson..

[Elite]

that's absolutely not true; I spent a whole year overhauling my picking style to economy picking.

also, legato is best

If legato is your favorite, and what works best for you, that's cool. I myself try to avoid thinking in those terms; I like to keep an open mind, and try to avoid the "this technique is better than that technique" mentality. For me, it's whatever technique lends itself best for the melodic idea I'm trying to execute. Sometimes it's legato; sometimes alternate picking, or economy picking, etc. Just depends on the moment.

At the end of the day, techniques are nothing more than tools for us to use artistically. I think to believe that any one technique is superior to all others is a bit narrow minded, and can stunt one's artistic means of expression. It has always baffled me how some amazing players out there are so comfortable with openly speaking against this or that technique.

I can definitely see what you mean, and it was a little in jest as well. I economy pick basically everything I do, except for melodic line or solos. Those are (almost) always legato and slide for me. I just love the possibilities of legato playing, bending and sliding on a guitar. For me personally, legato sounds 'better' or more 'authentic' on a guitar, but this is completely arbitrary. Of course, it also depends on the situation and the style of music you're playing. And hey, I still play in a metal band; all the riffs I play are either downstrokes or economy picking

[TheCountOfNYC]

And this is where as a finger style bassist and a drummer the thread completely loses me.

[Train of Naught]

I find that economy picking is hard if you actually try to do it, but if you just let yourself pick naturally and not think about it, your hand naturally does this to save space and energy.

that's absolutely not true; I spent a whole year overhauling my picking style to economy picking.

heh

[Elite]

nice catch!

[pcs90]

Oh... Come on... GG's solo in Steven Wilson's Regret #9 is a piece of art, he can write a lot of beautiful things as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaH2C2Qe97Y

This and the solo in Ancestral are fantastic. Would love to hear more of GG's playing like this.

[ReaperKK]

Don't forget the Drive Home solo

[pcs90]

Don't forget the Drive Home solo

True, that one is nice too. Honestly I can't believe it took me as long as it did to discover those albums. There's some fantastic stuff on them.

[CoT67]

The past weeks, I have been listening to a lot of my favorite guitarists. Criss Oliva, Brian May, Steve Vai, Nuno Bettencourt, Eddie Van Halen, just to name a few. While listening, I realized that if I had a blind listen to a song one of these guitarists played in, I could recognize who the guitarist is because I can hear a distinct "voice" from the guitar playing.

The same can not be said for Petrucci, though. I love his guitar playing, but I can not hear a unique voice, a distinct style from his guitar. He's a great guitarist, but for some reason, he never developed a signature style that would make me say, "Oh, that's John Petrucci" when I do a blind listen.

Is there a distinct Petrucci style that you can pick up from his playing?

Coming in late... as a huge fan of Petrucci's playing, I would say he not only developed a uniquely distinct style, but he inspired lots of modern guitar players, just like Van Halen, Malmsteen and Vai
did back in the 80s. Players like Marco Sfogli or Andy James have got some of that JP sound in their playing.

He has an extremely melodic, almost "vocal" approach to the soloing (IMHO his best examples are solos like the ones in Overture 1928, TSCO, most I&W solos and LITS) that he has managed to combine it with some crazy shredding (Best examples are in between Lie, Erotomania, As I Am... actually there's too many).

His way of building up the solos by the way of slow melodic themes, fast licks and great pacing/structure is also what I recognise first in his playing: as an example, the first time I heard the final solo in Erised from Periphery I knew it was him.

I definitely think he was a lot more "unique" in his 92-02 period, and his style got progressively less jazzy/fusion-y and more metal-focused since TOT. You can hear that jazz/fusion influenced style in any of his solos from the 90's, whether DT, LTE, the examples from Rock Discipline and the occasional solo song he played at clinics (gold mine here, there's even a Prince cover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mBV1GhbMYZ8&feature=youtu.be&t=20m6s).

Also, if there is a specific technique I instantly associate to Petrucci, it's alternate picking... even if he got that a lot from Steve Morse.

[lucasembarbosa]

Seriously? Two pages (three now  )and not a single word about THE technique that only Mighty Petrucci can master? What about Wahybrido Pickingant? 

JP does have a unique style.  It's very scalar and arpeggio-based super fast alternate picking.  Very melodic and moody, but with as much classical influence as blues/jazz.  He does tapping, but not as much as Vai or EVH.  He throws in a bit of sweep picking occasionally, but not as much as Yngwie.  He plays horizontally on the neck (across strings 1-6(or 7)) at least as much as he plays vertically (lots of hammer-ons, pull-offs, etc.), and I think a lot of guitar players tent to play vertically a lot more.  He doesn't repeat himself very much at all, and instead prefers to roam the upper and lower depths of the scale.

The tone he gets from his LiquiFire neck pickup is so smooth, fat, and sweet at the same time, and it goes really well with his harmonic and melodic playing.

I think it sums pretty well how I see JP's technique, and specially what I like about it.

[rumborak]

I definitely think he was a lot more "unique" in his 92-02 period, and his style got progressively less jazzy/fusion-y and more metal-focused since TOT. You can hear that jazz/fusion influenced style in any of his solos from the 90's, whether DT, LTE, the examples from Rock Discipline and the occasional solo song he played at clinics

I absolutely agree with this. I remember when ToT came out and I thought, "oh, he's doing a lot more chromatics, cool". He never quite returned from that though, and while he still has bluesy aspects here and there, the jazz/fusion part has entirely disappeared. Would love to see that again at some point.

[rumborak]

*double post, sorry*

[Stewie]

John's playing definitely was a lot more fusion-esque, or "jazzy" back in the day, that's for sure. I remember back in the '90s seeing him improvise over backing tracks at NAMM, and he was doing a lot more Govan-esque type playing. He gets a bit carried away with the shredding these days, but overall I still dig the solos he writes. His improvised soloing isn't nearly as interesting anymore, though. At least, not compared to his playing in the '90s.

[TheCountOfNYC]

While there's no doubt that John is a master guitarist, the thing that makes him stand out to me is not his playing but his writing. He has written so many memorable guitar melodies and riffs and it seems that every solo he writes fits perfectly with the song. Look at the contrast between the solos in songs like As I Am and Under a Glass Moon. They're both great solos that are completely different styles and fit the song perfectly. Then you have his riffs. Looking at his solo stuff, he came out with Jaws of Life, a chugging metal powerhouse of a riff, and Glasgow Kiss, a string skipping melodic masterpiece. They are both so different yet both memorable and catchy. He's mastered so many styles and incorporates all of them into his music flawlessly. That to me is what defines JP a a guitar player.