Parenting/marital advice

[ProfessorPeart]

Man, Gary, you brought back some really bad memories for me. My daughter during the middle school years was a trainwreck. Constant cutting, cutting in school, sexting, suicide attempt, multiple stays in a juvenile mental health facility, multiple intensive outpatient programs.

She's super smart and we eventually realized she was gaming the counselors and psychiatrists and telling them what they wanted to hear. I literally told her child psychiatrist that she was like an Evil Genius.

Eventually, we found a therapist that really got through to her. I also posited a theory of borderline personality disorder to both the therapist and her psychiatrist. They both agreed and then hooked up with each other to swap notes and come up with a plan of action. I cannot begin to tell you how many thousands or tens of thousands of dollars I spent on her therapy.

Now, at 22, she seems to have a good head on her shoulders. She has a steady job, a really good boyfriend and is helping me pay for her aborted college loans. All in all, we went through hell but we got through it. I honestly didn't think we would.

So, hopefully, my little story there will give you some hope. I admit, it was some of the worst time of our lives for my wife and I during those years.

[gmillerdrake]

***snip***

So, hopefully, my little story there will give you some hope. I admit, it was some of the worst time of our lives for my wife and I during those years.

I appreciate the story as it truly is encouraging. We are holding firm to the hope that we know he has a great 'foundation' so to speak, he's a genuinely good person who just happens to be in a rough spot. I know it's going to continue to be a battle....I just want to make sure I'm doing all I can as his Father to give him whatever he needs to help break through. And....as you mentioned....this has been brutal for my wife and I. We are in a good spot with each other but emotionally it's just draining to say the least.

[Skeever]

Man, it's crazy to me that a 16 year old kid could feel so low and like their life is ruined because they got busted with a vape pen.
It's not even that big of a deal, and not only that, but many people don't even get started on putting their life together until their 30s. One or even many mistakes is not "the end".
But anyway, thinking of you and your son gmiller. I hope things continue to move forward.

[KevShmev]

Damn, sorry to hear all of this, Gary.  I don't always read these threads, but that was heartbreaking to read.  I cannot imagine. 

[jingle.boy]

Man, it's crazy to me that a 16 year old kid could feel so low and like their life is ruined because they got busted with a vape pen.

If only things were just that simple.

[Phoenix87x]

Sorry, not to change the subject

But how do you guys handle intentional bad behavior vs accidental.

So like your kid is playing with a baseball outside and accidentally shatters a window in the house vs. they were pissed off for whatever reason and intentionally did it?

[Phoenix87x]

Ok here goes a question.

So inevitably you have to correct your children. Its so incredibly easy to just "want to be their friend" since the love they show toward you feels nice, but at the same time you have to parent.

So when you correct them and you see that joy they have for you turn to sadness, and they storm off crying, or angry or resentful, how do you deal with that mentally? Like if feels so bad that all of a sudden they seem to "hate" you.

And question 2, is there a time you go to them to comfort and reassure them after correcting them, or do you let them cry it out where ever they stormed off to.

[King Postwhore]

If you allow that behavior, you acknowledge it's ok.  So Let them cry it out and then later when the child is calmed down, explain why you do not like this certain behavior. Years later as an adult, you'll understand why your parents wouldn't allow you to act or do certain things.  Fair but firm.  Always explain so there is a learning and understanding why.

[jingle.boy]

If you allow that behavior, you acknowledge it's ok.  So Let them cry it out and then later when the child is calmed down, explain why you do not like this certain behavior. Years later as an adult, you'll understand why your parents wouldn't allow you to act or do certain things.  Fair but firm.  Always explain so there is a learning and understanding why.

Wisdom, right there.

You have to let them experience and learn to cope with their emotions - hurt, sad, anger ... whatever.  You don't want 22 year olds who pout for three days anytime they 'corrected'.

[Harmony]

Ok here goes a question.

So inevitably you have to correct your children. Its so incredibly easy to just "want to be their friend" since the love they show toward you feels nice, but at the same time you have to parent.

So when you correct them and you see that joy they have for you turn to sadness, and they storm off crying, or angry or resentful, how do you deal with that mentally? Like if feels so bad that all of a sudden they seem to "hate" you.

And question 2, is there a time you go to them to comfort and reassure them after correcting them, or do you let them cry it out where ever they stormed off to.

First - yes, parents need to set boundaries and rules for the child and then BE CONSISTENT with those boundaries/rules.  You are right, being their 'friend' sounds nice but ultimately the goal of parenting is to teach (discipline means teach) them how to become fully functioning adults that know right from wrong.  So parenting is a job - not a 'let's be friends' proposition.

I'm not sure the age(s) of child(ren) you are dealing with so remember that taking a child's age and maturity level goes into the response here.  I often find that as parents we spend a lot of time teaching our kids how to do to thing - walk, talk, dress themselves, pick up after themselves, use utensils, ride a bike, etc - but we don't teach them how to manage their big emotions very well.  Probably because a lot of parents don't know how to manage their own big emotions very well, TBH.  So when we are faced with opportunities to teach our children about their big emotions that is very important even though feeling like they hate us in the moment is so very difficult.

Obviously, teaching is not going to occur when they are in a dysregulated state so until they are in that 'teachable' place I'd try to let them know that you understand that they are mad, upset, angry, frustrated - whatever emotion you see in them, try to name it.  This way they a) know there is a word/label for their emotions and b) know that YOU understand how they are feeling.

Once the more 'teachable' moment arises - after the emotions have eased a bit, that is the time to have the discussion about whatever the issue was that happened but more importantly how they can better manage their emotional state in the future and that YOU are there to help them with this.  So they don't have to storm off if they don't want to.  You don't send them to their room because they are upset - you will be with them in their upset until they can calm down/regulate.

I grew up in a home where if I had any big emotion I got sent to my room.  My parents did the best they could but they had no idea how to deal with my emotional outbursts.  But how effective is it to teach a child how to manage their emotions by MAKING them do it all alone?  Time outs can be effective sometimes - don't get me wrong.  But not when the need is to teach how to manage anger/upset.  We as parents need to put as much time/effort into helping our kids with their emotions as we do helping them learn to walk and talk.

[jingle.boy]

Thank god we have at least a few females here! 

[WilliamMunny]

Ok here goes a question.

So inevitably you have to correct your children. Its so incredibly easy to just "want to be their friend" since the love they show toward you feels nice, but at the same time you have to parent.

So when you correct them and you see that joy they have for you turn to sadness, and they storm off crying, or angry or resentful, how do you deal with that mentally? Like if feels so bad that all of a sudden they seem to "hate" you.

And question 2, is there a time you go to them to comfort and reassure them after correcting them, or do you let them cry it out where ever they stormed off to.

First - yes, parents need to set boundaries and rules for the child and then BE CONSISTENT with those boundaries/rules.  You are right, being their 'friend' sounds nice but ultimately the goal of parenting is to teach (discipline means teach) them how to become fully functioning adults that know right from wrong.  So parenting is a job - not a 'let's be friends' proposition.

I'm not sure the age(s) of child(ren) you are dealing with so remember that taking a child's age and maturity level goes into the response here.  I often find that as parents we spend a lot of time teaching our kids how to do to thing - walk, talk, dress themselves, pick up after themselves, use utensils, ride a bike, etc - but we don't teach them how to manage their big emotions very well.  Probably because a lot of parents don't know how to manage their own big emotions very well, TBH.  So when we are faced with opportunities to teach our children about their big emotions that is very important even though feeling like they hate us in the moment is so very difficult.

Obviously, teaching is not going to occur when they are in a dysregulated state so until they are in that 'teachable' place I'd try to let them know that you understand that they are mad, upset, angry, frustrated - whatever emotion you see in them, try to name it.  This way they a) know there is a word/label for their emotions and b) know that YOU understand how they are feeling.

Once the more 'teachable' moment arises - after the emotions have eased a bit, that is the time to have the discussion about whatever the issue was that happened but more importantly how they can better manage their emotional state in the future and that YOU are there to help them with this.  So they don't have to storm off if they don't want to.  You don't send them to their room because they are upset - you will be with them in their upset until they can calm down/regulate.

I grew up in a home where if I had any big emotion I got sent to my room.  My parents did the best they could but they had no idea how to deal with my emotional outbursts.  But how effective is it to teach a child how to manage their emotions by MAKING them do it all alone?  Time outs can be effective sometimes - don't get me wrong.  But not when the need is to teach how to manage anger/upset.  We as parents need to put as much time/effort into helping our kids with their emotions as we do helping them learn to walk and talk.

I was just going to say most of this… consistency is key! My wife and are constantly checking in to make sure we are essentially on the same page with everything our 14 and 2 year-olds throw at us.

Also, I think the fear of hurting a child’s feelings is totally natural, and compartmentalization is something every parent eventually needs to learn. I can be firm, consistent, sad, disappointed , and upset all at the same time—all while delivering whatever ‘no’ the moment calls for.

[Phoenix87x]

Thank you everyone. Excellent guidance and I appreciate it

and just for context my nephew is 13 but has a developmental disorder and looks like he's 5 or 6. (if you remember simon birch the movie, it will makes sense)

The niece is 7 and extremely smart, but much like me (she is wild and fearless). She does immediately listen to me without issue though. 

The nephew "Marc" seems 100% fine alone, but around other little kids (like his sister) he regresses and acts up (possibly to get attention)

But what is so utterly truly fascinating and moving quite frankly is the following:

with my Autism when I've had enough, I've truly had enough. (like with overstimulation). And instead of having a meltdown in front of children, I just got up and said I need to leave.

The 7 year old niece "Mackenna" ran after me and grabbed me by the arm very tightly and said "please uncle Phoenix, please down leave, we'll be quieter and act better"

And for her, I turned around and sat back down. Even though all I wanted to do was run.

I'm almost getting teary eyed just thinking about it.

[TAC]

The 7 year old niece "Mackenna" ran after me and grabbed me by the arm very tightly and said "please uncle Phoenix, please down leave, we'll be quieter and act better"

And for her, I turned around and sat back down. Even though all I wanted to do was run.

Good for you. Seriously. Our son is autistic, and we have always pushed his comfort level in certain things.

It's important that you did what you did...for her's and your own good. A win-win if I may.

[Stadler]

I wasn't going to weigh in - Harmony covered it about as well as it could be covered - but I wanted to affirm Phoenix for his handling of that situation and getting out of his comfort zone for those kids.  Pretty impressed, pretty proud of you.

[Phoenix87x]

Thanks so much guys. I really appreciate it.

I've dreamed of being a father my entire life, so I am very grateful to have this opportunity to learn and develop being a parent.

[jingle.boy]

I wasn't going to weigh in - Harmony covered it about as well as it could be covered - but I wanted to affirm Phoenix for his handling of that situation and getting out of his comfort zone for those kids.  Pretty impressed, pretty proud of you.

If the forum had a ‘Like’ button, I’d have smashed it on Phoenix’s follow up post.  I completely concur with Bill here.

[Jamesman42]

At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?

I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.

It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.

I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people

[WilliamMunny]

At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?

I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.

It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.

I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people

Unfortunately, I think the only honest answer anyone can give you is, "it depends." 

Our 14 (going on 25) year-old son was a freaking demon when he didn't get his way. Massive, uncontrollable tantrums until he was 5 or 6, and even then, he was a trouble-maker at school.

Obviously, he was the only kid in the house, so with my wife and I always able to tag-team, I never felt 'overwhelmed.' It was trying at times, but we quickly learned to be a united front, and that seemed to work well.

The kid is now going to be a sophomore, has a 4.0, plays sports, has a job, and has the most reserved, mild-mannered disposition. I honestly can't justify my memory of him with the man he's become/becoming.

Our 2-year-old, on the other hand, is quiet, reserved, and thoughtful. Much more in line with my wife and I's personalties. He won't sleep through the night, but otherwise, he's been a joy. Of course, with us in our mid-forties, I think we are savoring this a bit more this time around, so that definitely helps.

I am all too aware of how fast it's going by, so I am trying my best to treasure everything, even the mild hiccups.

Again, my story would be WAY different without my wife. I mean, to be honest, she does all of the heavy lifting with these kids. I mean, I'm there, but I am definitely Myung to her Petrucci.

[jingle.boy]

As I always told Mrs.jingle, it doesn’t get any easier or harder, it just gets different.

There are always new problems, worries, joys, and exhilarations as they age.  The jingle.kids are turning 23 in 4 weeks, and it’s still a challenge parenting adults that are living at home (because of the pandemic, they came home and got stuck in virtual schooling)

[Jamesman42]

Nice advice guys! That's true, it just gets different. I think I will feel less flustered when little boy can communicate his needs better, and sleep through the night more than he does now. He is awesome, I'm just tired.

[WilliamMunny]

Nice advice guys! That's true, it just gets different. I think I will feel less flustered when little boy can communicate his needs better, and sleep through the night more than he does now. He is awesome, I'm just tired.

I haven't had more than three hours of uninterrupted sleep in almost two years–I hear you!

[Stadler]

At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?

I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.

It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.

I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people

It doesn't get "easier" - I have a 30, 25, 22, and 15 year old, as well as 6 and 2 year old grandkids, and NONE of it is easier - it just gets different.   Both in the problems, but also the consequences, and the solutions.   

I find FOR ME, the young require TIME.  I have to watch the 2 year old, because it only takes a second to burn or cut or break something.  You have to be present and WATCH.  You also have to be very literal in your instructions: "Hey, don't play with the knife."   I don't need to put in TIME watching the older kids, but the worries are more... intangible and lasting in different ways. And I don't have to be literal, and in fact it's sometimes inadvisable to be too literal in the instruction. "Why not try something along these lines?"   Or, better yet, "here's a great book that covers what you're going through." 

Both, though, are incredibly rewarding.  I know there was a thread about the obnoxiousness of parents to those that don't have kids, and I don't mean anything I write to tread on those lines, but FOR ME, I find my kids to be an incredibly rewarding experience, and I willingly, at this point, put them first because it gives me joy to see their successes.  It's not like I've done everything, I haven't, and I have a lot to do that I will, but it's tempered.  I'm not skydiving at this point, or joining the Army, or going to London for two years of grad school, so I facilitate that in my kids where I can...

[Harmony]

At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?

I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.

It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.

I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people

It doesn't get "easier" - I have a 30, 25, 22, and 15 year old, as well as 6 and 2 year old grandkids, and NONE of it is easier - it just gets different.   Both in the problems, but also the consequences, and the solutions.   

I find FOR ME, the young require TIME.  I have to watch the 2 year old, because it only takes a second to burn or cut or break something.  You have to be present and WATCH.  You also have to be very literal in your instructions: "Hey, don't play with the knife."   I don't need to put in TIME watching the older kids, but the worries are more... intangible and lasting in different ways. And I don't have to be literal, and in fact it's sometimes inadvisable to be too literal in the instruction. "Why not try something along these lines?"   Or, better yet, "here's a great book that covers what you're going through." 

Both, though, are incredibly rewarding.  I know there was a thread about the obnoxiousness of parents to those that don't have kids, and I don't mean anything I write to tread on those lines, but FOR ME, I find my kids to be an incredibly rewarding experience, and I willingly, at this point, put them first because it gives me joy to see their successes.  It's not like I've done everything, I haven't, and I have a lot to do that I will, but it's tempered.  I'm not skydiving at this point, or joining the Army, or going to London for two years of grad school, so I facilitate that in my kids where I can...

You leave a knife where a 2 year old can get at it?   

I agree with the other posters.  I was talking about safety proofing a house with a friend who's going to be a grandma soon.  You never stop safety proofing - you just keep moving the safety gates back farther.

I honestly thought 4 was harder than 2 because the 4 year old can talk.  Nothing hurts like, "I hate you!" *stomp stomp*

Nothing prepares you for the amount of negotiating you have to do either.  I fucking hated that.  Especially since I grew up hearing, "Because I said so!" and tried really hard not to have that attitude with my kids.  That said, the amount of whining that a 2 year old can do is pretty impressive.  They say if you survive the terrible 2s you can survive teenagers.  At least teenagers sleep a lot. 

[Stadler]

At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?

I have two kids, boy just turned 1 and girl is almost 4. The girl is awesome but can throw the worst of tantrums. Still, I feel like I can deal with that well, because I can actually talk to her. I can trust her to play by herself a lot, which lets me be able to keep the house clean.

It's so much harder when the other kid is so young and needs my attention much more. I try to let him play as independently as possible. He loves to push anything he can around the house and will go through boxes of toys, all the while I supervise him and do some quick tidying in the room we are in.

I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people

It doesn't get "easier" - I have a 30, 25, 22, and 15 year old, as well as 6 and 2 year old grandkids, and NONE of it is easier - it just gets different.   Both in the problems, but also the consequences, and the solutions.   

I find FOR ME, the young require TIME.  I have to watch the 2 year old, because it only takes a second to burn or cut or break something.  You have to be present and WATCH.  You also have to be very literal in your instructions: "Hey, don't play with the knife."   I don't need to put in TIME watching the older kids, but the worries are more... intangible and lasting in different ways. And I don't have to be literal, and in fact it's sometimes inadvisable to be too literal in the instruction. "Why not try something along these lines?"   Or, better yet, "here's a great book that covers what you're going through." 

Both, though, are incredibly rewarding.  I know there was a thread about the obnoxiousness of parents to those that don't have kids, and I don't mean anything I write to tread on those lines, but FOR ME, I find my kids to be an incredibly rewarding experience, and I willingly, at this point, put them first because it gives me joy to see their successes.  It's not like I've done everything, I haven't, and I have a lot to do that I will, but it's tempered.  I'm not skydiving at this point, or joining the Army, or going to London for two years of grad school, so I facilitate that in my kids where I can...

You leave a knife where a 2 year old can get at it?   

I agree with the other posters.  I was talking about safety proofing a house with a friend who's going to be a grandma soon.  You never stop safety proofing - you just keep moving the safety gates back farther.

I honestly thought 4 was harder than 2 because the 4 year old can talk.  Nothing hurts like, "I hate you!" *stomp stomp*

Nothing prepares you for the amount of negotiating you have to do either.  I fucking hated that.  Especially since I grew up hearing, "Because I said so!" and tried really hard not to have that attitude with my kids.  That said, the amount of whining that a 2 year old can do is pretty impressive.  They say if you survive the terrible 2s you can survive teenagers.  At least teenagers sleep a lot.

We're going through that now with the six year old.  REALLY pushing boundaries; it's stunning what these kids know to say in order to get right to the bone.   

[Jamesman42]

I teach 12 to 14 year olds math (and used to teach 14 - 18 as well), I feel like I can at least have some experience with that age group and what to expect.

Little kids though. Those emotions are big and explosive.

[lordxizor]

I think it gets easier when they're able to wipe their own butts and get their own bowl of cereal for breakfast. Now, there are other things to have to deal with as they get older of course. But the constant hands-on nature of little kids get better by age 6 or so.

[Grappler]

At what ages did you feel it got easier as a parent, when you have babies and toddlers?

Once my youngest was potty trained, it seemed to get easier, though there is still butt-wiping involved.  Older kids just have different issues.  My daughter is 8 and has some bad behavioral tendencies that we are dealing with in various ways.  Sometimes that can be a daily occurrence and it's draining, but the good times show us that not every day is a pain.

I just feel like a whirlwind of a person and it's every day. I knew it would be, nothing about this surprises me. Maybe I just need some reassurance and I love my kids, they are funny and awesome little people

Still true.  I wake up around 6am (5am when I commute to the city) and I don't get to sit down and relax for myself until 9pm when everyone is in bed.   Every day is crazy, though it's better when school is in session and there is a daily schedule and structure.  This summer has been nuts between juggling work, lighter kids camp schedules, and keeping the kids busy outside.

[Harmony]

Can we talk about how society treats children in public places?

And the fact that this may be contributing to the rise in mental health problems that we, here in the US, seem to have.

It seems as though for the most part children are not welcomed into our society.  I myself am guilty of being less than enthusiastic when faced with children on a plane or in a restaurant.  Even if that child is somewhat well behaved - that could change at an instant and who wants to put up with that - right?

Kids are expected to be put in 'kids only' places.  We want to keep them separate because they are seen as inconveniences.  We give them tablets at the table in the restaurant so they won't bother anyone.  And then we wonder why kids grow into adults who have problems going into a grocery store without having a panic attack.  We wonder why they don't know how to make phone calls...they don't know how to talk to people at the post office...they have trouble making friends.  We put them in their kids only places and then expect them to grow into normal adults who can successfully navigate their world.

Kids learn how to be in a society by being in a society.  If we make them sit quietly and not move while they are out in a social place they are going to learn that this is a bad place to be.  "This is where I get in trouble."  "This is where I can't relax." Kids learn from being exposed to the interactions of others.  Seeing other people in social settings allows them to pick up the skills to communicate, understand, empathize with their fellow human beings.  Everyone having a phone in their hands is not helping with this either.  It just keeps everyone in their own little boxes.

It is ok for parents to want spaces to be more welcoming for children.  We put enormous pressure on parents to keep their kids in check.  And when they don't, they are automatically labled as 'bad parents.'  This further isolates families - parents and kids - from the society.  The same society that needs well-adjusted functioning adults.

Look, I love kids.  But I'm old and tired.  I think maybe lately I've let myself lapse into a headspace where I try to avoid places with kids.  (Ok being a bit of a germaphobe is part of it too, I'm sure.  Fuckin petri dishes all of em... ) And when I do run into them out in the wild I try not to interact with them.  I feel like I want to try and change this in some small way.  Maybe being more welcoming to kids and their parents would be a small thing but one that could make someone's day better.

I don't know...just a thought I had today.   

[King Postwhore]

I'm not like that. I understand when a baby  rises in a restaurant. When I'm wrestling event in Boston,  s fidgety kid is kicking my chair but I say nothing. 

I do think, I am not the norm. Today's world is self absorbed.   There feelings matter over everyone else instead of being understanding.   Compassionate.

[Cool Chris]

I want to think about Harmony's post a bit before responding, but recently we went to a restaurant, and after having been sitting for a bit, my 5 year old looked around and said something to the effect of "lots of tablets here..." Easily more than half of the kids there were using a tablet at their table.

[lordxizor]

I bring my kids most places. I completely agree that kids learn best in society and seeing how I interact with people. We also don't resort to screens to keep them silent and dumb when we're out and about. Drives me nuts to see toddlers on their parents phones at the grocery store. Let them help choose what food you get! I'll be honest, I'm not sure that I agree that kids aren't welcome.most places. Or maybe I'm just oblivious that people hate that I bring my kids in public. 

[Grappler]

We obviously bring our kids places - my kids love jumping in the car with me to run errands, even if it's just to pick up food.  They want to help and be involved in the family.  We just flew back from Florida and my kids were AWESOME on the plane rides.  But on the flight back, there were a few crying babies.  Us parents have all been there and I have much more empathy for them now as a parent than I did before I had my own kids. 

I've put my kids over my shoulder and marched them out of someplace public when a tantrum started, and I've also seen them behave really well.  Yes, we resort to tablets and cell phones to entertain them, but that's just part of the societal norm now.  We also stack coffee creamer and butter containers at restaurants to occupy time, so it's not always relying on technology, but that's usually the simplest way to keep them from disturbing others.

[Stadler]

I have two kids of that age (my older two step kids were already in their teens when I met them) and now two grandkids (5 1/2 and almost 2). 

I am EXCEEDINGLY patient with kids.  I am EXCEEDINGLY harsh with parents.   I was in the xfinity store last week, and "Nana" was there with her four I guess grandkids, aged I'd guess 1 1/2 to maybe 8 or 10?  They were hellions, and all "Nana" did was yell at them and expect them to act like adults in a cable store.  I wanted to punch "Nana" in the face (not to mention, her phone didn't work, and it was because her daughter didn't pay the bill; she kept yelling that "she paid her daughter, it wasn't her problem, her phone won't let her make calls!"; at one point she actually asked the guy working "do you have the number for Shop Rite so I can call my daughter?"   He politely said "no, Ma'am, I do not.")

Parenting is not a passive activity.  It's just not.  I spend a lot of time with my step son and we bring his two kids all over.  Sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're not.  The responsibility falls on him and I to make that right.  Whether it's discipline, or punting and realizing that's not the place for that kid at that time, whatever.   

But I'm 100% in agreement with Harmony, in that these kids will never learn to exist in public and co-exist with other people if they aren't put in a situation where they have to exist in public and co-exist with other people.   We live in a fucked up society in that way; we seem to gravitate to two extremes: we brow-beat our kids to be disciplined mini-adults for 18 years or we let them run roughshod for 18 years, then throw them out in a society that says "fuck all the rules, you be you, and let the freak flag fly" and wonder why they sink like stones. 

[gmillerdrake]

Yesterday was a big day in the household.....our 16 year old drove off on his own for the first time    Talk about nearly having a panic attack!!!!  He got his license on Monday and it took me a couple days to get the car we got for him licensed, new tires and what not....so, got that done yesterday and he was able to take himself to his piano lessons then to the high school for marching band practice.

My wife was crying because we've been taking him to those lessons since he was in third grade...and now he's just off to it. Now today they're off school and he's taking off to go to his buddies house to 'jam'....I know it'll get easier but I'm trying not to worry and get in my head over this.