Parenting/marital advice

[Adami]

I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.

This guy knows what’s up.

Intimacy is different for different people. If your form of intimacy is sex, then you both need to be on the same page.

[jingle.boy]

*incredibly chauvinistic post*

I'd break the dtf with the number of reply .gifs this post deserves.  Wow.  I'm literally at a loss for words.

I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.

This guy knows what’s up.

Intimacy is different for different people. If your form of intimacy is sex, then you both need to be on the same page.

+ 1 to both

[lordxizor]

I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.

Fair enough. Intimacy is shown in different ways for different people. To me sex and intimacy are completely tied together.

[H2]

*incredibly chauvinistic post*

I'd break the dtf with the number of reply .gifs this post deserves.  Wow.  I'm literally at a loss for words.

Then save me from my own destruction! Where, specifically, is my error?

[TAC]

Intimacy is really a connection that only you and your spouse share. But intimacy should never be confused with sex. Sex certainly can mean intimacy. But, if all intimacy means to you is sex, then your relationship is definitely on the clock.

[lordxizor]

You know, I think one of the toughest things for me is that my love language is physical touch. You know that new relationship stage where you just always want to be in physical contact with each other and you're all over each other all the time? That desire has never gone away for me. I had never been in a relationship long enough for that stage to end before my wife. My only other long term relationship was with someone who's love language was likely also physical touch. It never crossed my mind that this wasn't how everyone was, because I had never experienced anything else. It's required a serious expectation shift that's been difficult for me to say the least. I literally hold myself back from touching her every chance I get. It just comes so naturally and unconsciously to me. Sex is included in that. It's just a fundamental need for me in order to feel loved, that when she doesn't want it, I literally have to give myself an internal pep talk that it doesn't mean she doesn't love me.

[lordxizor]

Intimacy is really a connection that only you and your spouse share. But intimacy should never be confused with sex. Sex certainly can mean intimacy. But, if all intimacy means to you is sex, then your relationship is definitely on the clock.

There is certainly intimacy outside of sex for me. Sex is just the ultimate form of it. If I'm feeling super connected and we've been intimate in other ways, sex is a natural next step to me. If I'm feeling not very connected and we haven't been intimate in other ways, sex is the quickest way to jump start it for me. But I get she doesn't work that way in the latter case and I need to connect with her in other ways first.

[TAC]

OK..

But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance

No....really?

Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.

OK, good. Hold that thought...

Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good.

This has to be one of the most fucked up paragraphs I've read in my 17 years on DTF.

Why on earth would you have a fear of losing attraction. What if you marry someone that is smoking hot but turns into a real bitch, but stays hot? Is that OK? You're attracted to her still right?

Why are you worried about hippos? Just look at us here on DTF. Everyone here has married up. No hippos here that I've seen. Hippos are out there for sure but how is that a worry at all? What if you married a wonderful girl who gave you 3 wonderful children. Guess what...birth weight can be difficult to lose. What do you do then? Bodies change as you get older.

As far as trading places with them...nope. You become them, and you'll have a smartass 29 y/o looking at you funny.

I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.

What happens if it's YOU that loses their sex drive? Huh??

In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.

Maybe I spoke too soon above....

WTF is this? That sounds like a great plan. You could also open a Playboy Mansion while you're at it.

Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.
What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no one bats 1.000 at that age. Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.


And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.

[Stadler]

I was 46 when I got divorced.  I generally have no rules (that aren't also laws) when it comes to dating, but it only took me about two weeks to decide that "under 30" was generally off limits to me.   I told this story before, but I swear it's true.  Talking to a very cute 26 year old at a bar, and in the course of the conversation I said "you look like Susannah Hoffs" (she did).   "Who?"   "Susannah Hoffs. The Bangles."   "Who?"   "The Bangles.  Walk Like An Egyptian?"   "Who?"   "What are you, a fucking owl?"  Okay, so I didn't say the last one, but the rest, yep.

H2, I don't know that all of that is "sexist" but I do believe most of that is wishful thinking.   If you don't get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to be any less afraid of those things when your older and have "ginormous cash".   And if you do get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to give a SHIT about those things you're worried about.

[lordxizor]

I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.

This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was. I just assumed sex was tremendously important for all men like it is for me. I've read a lot of things on marriage over the last couple years and felt like I was pretty well in line with the way men's needs were described. Obviously everyone is different, but I think there are some generalities for men and women.

I genuinely think that I am not nearly as big an asshole as I apparently came across here at times. It's partly an artifact of me not being able to present the full story, for sake of brevity and privacy, and largely due to my writing style and the way I communicate which I know can sound cold and overly logical much of the time. I struggle with that in person as well.

I think the biggest issue for my wife and I was lack of communication for a long time. I was too self conscious and timid to speak up after our first kid and it just built and built in my mind for over a decade to the point where I was ready to explode with emotion and frustration. And yes, I did feel she owed me something for the years of treating me poorly sexually. She readily admits that she treated me poorly and has apologized (I haven't delved into the details of this at all here and won't). She's making a conscious effort to treat me better and try to meet me somewhere in the middle. But frankly a year ago I didn't want the middle, we had done things her way for a decade and I felt like she owed me a decade of things my way. I've let go of that mindset, but still struggle when it feels like we're not even going to make it a quarter of the way to my way. I also struggle with frustration that the depth of her trauma wasn't explained to me before we got married. I know it's very difficult for people to tell others about this kind of thing, so I'm glad it finally came out at least a vague level. It just would have been nice if I'd have known going in that this was going to be difficult for her.

Anyway... Partly I just needed a place to vent. But again, I do genuinely appreciate the thoughts, advice, and alternate perspectives. It has really made me rethink the way I need to approach this with her.

[jingle.boy]

Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.
What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no on bats 1.000 at that age. Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.


And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.

+1 to all of this.

Stads was far more gracious in his retort than I'm about to be, because I'm literally disgusted there are men like this out there that view a relationship/marriage the way that H describes.

I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright?  Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen?  How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?

That post was the egregious epitome of vanity, arrogance and selfishness.  If all that matters is younger sex, just get a subscription to an escort service, because you are beyond shallow, and that would fulfill your needs.  I really hope you're intention was to troll the group (though I suspect not), cuz otherwise ... well, I said it to open this paragraph.

[TAC]

I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.

This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.

Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.

I genuinely think that I am not nearly as big an asshole as I apparently came across here at times. It's partly an artifact of me not being able to present the full story, for sake of brevity and privacy, and largely due to my writing style and the way I communicate which I know can sound cold and overly logical much of the time. I struggle with that in person as well.

I am sure you are not, and you wrote brutally honest, but you took the responses and didn't get defensive, so respect for that. And yes, I think we're all aware we don't have the full story.

Anyway... Partly I just needed a place to vent. But again, I do genuinely appreciate the thoughts, advice, and alternate perspectives. It has really made me rethink the way I need to approach this with her.

Nothing wrong with venting. Lots of experience between everyone here. And for me, I treat all conversations here like a couple of dudes sharing some beers and talking.

[TAC]

I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright?  Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen?  How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?

So wait....my balls hanging to my knees is a bad thing??

[lordxizor]

I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.

This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.

Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.

Of course I never thought she was a robot, nor did I treat her like one. But I think I was operating under a couple of false assumptions. One being that sex is good, all the time, which for me it is. For her, this is not true, which I did not know and still don't fully understand. Second that her giving me sex is no different than me running an errand for her or doing some other act of service for her to make her feel loved. I viewed them both as just nice things we're supposed to do for our spouses to make them feel loved. I would never say "I'm not in the mood" to run an errand for her, so I felt her saying the same thing to me was incredibly selfish. It's hard to shift my whole mindset on this, and to her credit she's trying to do her part too. Again, it's just frustrating that where we end up for now is going to likely be well short of my already recalibrated expectations.

[TAC]

I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.

This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.

Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.

Of course I never thought she was a robot, nor did I treat her like one. But I think I was operating under a couple of false assumptions. One being that sex is good, all the time, which for me it is. For her, this is not true, which I did not know and still don't fully understand. Second that her giving me sex is no different than me running an errand for her or doing some other act of service for her to make her feel loved. I viewed them both as just nice things we're supposed to do for our spouses to make them feel loved. I would never say "I'm not in the mood" to run an errand for her, so I felt her saying the same thing to me was incredibly selfish. It's hard to shift my whole mindset on this, and to her credit she's trying to do her part too. Again, it's just frustrating that where we end up for now is going to likely be well short of my already recalibrated expectations.

It IS different though.


Hey, marriage ain't always easy. And again, we're just talking. I don't want to comment further on another guy's marriage.

[lordxizor]

I'm just gonna keep posting, because what the hell.

This has all been a very interesting exercise for me the last few days, and I thank you for indulging me and being honest. It's helped me realize that the way I view sex and marriage in general is not as normal for men as I thought it was.

Thank you for sharing your story, and look, we all like having sex. There's nothing wrong with you wanting it, but you're married to another person, not Stacy the robot.

Of course I never thought she was a robot, nor did I treat her like one. But I think I was operating under a couple of false assumptions. One being that sex is good, all the time, which for me it is. For her, this is not true, which I did not know and still don't fully understand. Second that her giving me sex is no different than me running an errand for her or doing some other act of service for her to make her feel loved. I viewed them both as just nice things we're supposed to do for our spouses to make them feel loved. I would never say "I'm not in the mood" to run an errand for her, so I felt her saying the same thing to me was incredibly selfish. It's hard to shift my whole mindset on this, and to her credit she's trying to do her part too. Again, it's just frustrating that where we end up for now is going to likely be well short of my already recalibrated expectations.

It IS different though.

Yeah, I understand that now, which is why I said it was a false assumption previously. Ultimately it doesn't matter how much I think sex is great, necessary, deserved, important, etc. If she doesn't think the same way there's nothing I can do about that. I have stated my thoughts and feelings on it and she's coming around a bit, but it will always be different for her than it is for me. My goal for us now is to keep it as an open dialog where we always feel safe to talk to each other about it. We ignored the issue for over a decade and it nearly broke us.

[XeRocks81]

My goal for us now is to keep it as an open dialog where we always feel safe to talk to each other about it.

Don't have much to add but I wanted to to say that was very well said and I think that's the best thing you guys can do.

[lordxizor]

The other thought I had that I think explains the way I came across at the beginning of this topic is that I get almost panicky about all of this. Again, without going into too much detail, she treated me very poorly sexually for a long time. Anytime I feel things slipping back to that way again, I panic. I literally had panic attacks a year ago fearing that things had to go back to how they were before after I dredged stuff up for her. I don't want to use the word trauma, because her trauma is much worse than mine (from the little I understand of it), but for lack of a better word, it was traumatic to be treated as if I didn't matter for so long. Whenever I get in that state I get hyper focused on it and, again, feel panicky and desperate about it. That's gotten a lot better over the last year.

[King Postwhore]

When Tim is the voice of reason someone should check hell. I think it froze over. 

[H2]

@TAC, Stadler, Jingleboy:

I'm trying to be level-headed here. I'm open to being proven wrong. Insults do not prove me wrong. Condemnation does not prove me wrong. Generally, I'm looking for a tight, logical argument, pointing out exactly why what I said is "chauvinistic." I understand that chauvinism is the belief that men are superior to women. I do not believe that. I believe we are entitled to the same natural rights. I think people should try to be the best version of themselves, and good marriage will involve both parties helping each other do just that. So, I need you to identify for me exactly where I am saying something chauvinistic.

But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance

No....really?

Yeah, really. I had a few relationships in my mid-20s, but they didn't work out. One case was bad chemistry (we couldn't talk), one case was bad circumstances (she was about 10 years older and wanted to settle soon), and one case was, to be frank, a failure because we were both losers. She had alcohol and mental problems, and I had no ambition in life. I've had a few years to think about this, and I do believe that I've been a loser for most of my adult life. I do think I'm turning it around, though, and am on a very good upward trajectory.

Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.

OK, good. Hold that thought...

I do mean that stuff.

Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good.

This has to be one of the most fucked up paragraphs I've read in my 17 years on DTF.

Thanks.

Why on earth would you have a fear of losing attraction. What if you marry someone that is smoking hot but turns into a real bitch, but stays hot? Is that OK? You're attracted to her still right?

Just because I have a fear of losing attraction doesn't mean I also have other fears, like those you brought up.

Why are you worried about hippos? Just look at us here on DTF. Everyone here has married up. No hippos here that I've seen. Hippos are out there for sure but how is that a worry at all? What if you married a wonderful girl who gave you 3 wonderful children. Guess what...birth weight can be difficult to lose. What do you do then? Bodies change as you get older.

As for DTF mens' wives, I have no clue what anyone looks like. I'm just talking about what I have seen in the world around me. As for bodies changing, I acknowledge and appreciate that. They can also fluctuate, too, within a given year.

As far as trading places with them...nope. You become them, and you'll have a smartass 29 y/o looking at you funny.

Thanks? But surely, you'd recognize that it's good to look at people further along than you and learn from mistakes they've made, and see what they have in their life that you wouldn't want in yours, be it posture problems or hippo wives.

I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.

What happens if it's YOU that loses their sex drive? Huh??

Sure, I'm fearful of that, too. But I can be fearful of both things, can't I?

In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.

Maybe I spoke too soon above....

WTF is this? That sounds like a great plan. You could also open a Playboy Mansion while you're at it.

Where is that coming from? I am not promiscuous at all and have no desire to be. I have no interest in "plate spinning" or whatever the red pill people talk about. I don't want to build a harem, jeez. I'm interested in optimizing the odds of a happy marriage. And a happy marriage for me would involve ready, willing sex. If I had reason to think that girl X wouldn't readily have sex with me, I wouldn't marry X. Doesn't that sound reasonable?

Sure a 25 y/o girl has a longer sex life, especially compared to her 36 y/o husband, whose sex life shortens by the year.

I understand women have a tighter fertility window. Men experience a decline in fertility, but women become literally infertile. There are increased risks from old sperm, but the risks aren't nearly as severe as old eggs. So I do understand that there is a minor, minor cost to waiting. But I think the pros outweigh this con here.

What happens when she's 45 and you're 56? Let me tell you brother, no one bats 1.000 at that age.

I'll last longer, I guess. *shrugs*

Seems like the only long game you're thinking is your 29 y/o dick. And you are a pig for thinking this stuff. As you say sorry not sorry.
You are basically ensuring a bad marriage outcome, as you put it.

Why, exactly, is that? What exactly is going to be the problem with my plan as I have described it? Do you have a better plan for optimizing success or for avoiding those pitfalls I said I was afraid of?

And that thought about being religious? I'm calling bullshit on that.

You don't get to tell me that. I decide that.

I was 46 when I got divorced.  I generally have no rules (that aren't also laws) when it comes to dating, but it only took me about two weeks to decide that "under 30" was generally off limits to me.   I told this story before, but I swear it's true.  Talking to a very cute 26 year old at a bar, and in the course of the conversation I said "you look like Susannah Hoffs" (she did).   "Who?"   "Susannah Hoffs. The Bangles."   "Who?"   "The Bangles.  Walk Like An Egyptian?"   "Who?"   "What are you, a fucking owl?"  Okay, so I didn't say the last one, but the rest, yep.

I wouldn't date under 30 if I were 46, either, man. 36 to 25 is a fair distance though, wouldn't you think?

H2, I don't know that all of that is "sexist" but I do believe most of that is wishful thinking.   If you don't get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to be any less afraid of those things when your older and have "ginormous cash".   And if you do get swept off your feet by the love of your life, you're not going to give a SHIT about those things you're worried about.

Thanks, I appreciate your words of wisdom. In the end, the latter circumstance will probably be what happens and I won't make a rational decision.

*quoting TAC*

+1 to all of this.

Stads was far more gracious in his retort than I'm about to be, because I'm literally disgusted there are men like this out there that view a relationship/marriage the way that H describes.

OK, let me hear SPECIFICALLY what the disgusting part is, and why. Your reply to me, if I may be forthright, is an emotional outburst of disgust, but it is not a rational critique. I'm just not going to be swayed by emotional outbursts. Please come down to my level and give me a cold, rational critique of why my reasoning is flawed.

I'll also throw out the rhetorical question of what to ensures that YOU (H) don't become a hippo, or a weathered old grape who grows eyebrows like Abe Bagota, earlobes that sag to your shoulders, balls to your knees, and a boiler you can rest your beer on while sitting upright?  Where's the guarantee that you'll keep the will, drive, ability, time and motivation to remain an (apparent) Adonis-like physical specimen?  How are you so assured that at 36, you'll be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at you?

OK, what I'm gonna say is gonna trigger you even more, but I don't think a man's looks matter as much as a woman's. I think the man's income is proportional to the woman's looks. I'm sorry, this is just what I see! Reality is often disappointing. I'm not 100% sure that "at 36, [I'll] be some hotshot big-swingin-dick that 25 year-old hotties are gonna trip over to throw their pussy at [me]." But waiting until that time is the best chance I have, I think, at success. I do believe in myself. So I'll roll the dice. Assume the worst--I am a 2/10 neckbeard who's as good-looking as I'll ever get. Do you think I have a better strategy available to me? Why shouldn't I bide my time and build my assets so I can offer something better?

That post was the egregious epitome of vanity, arrogance and selfishness.  If all that matters is younger sex, just get a subscription to an escort service, because you are beyond shallow, and that would fulfill your needs.  I really hope you're intention was to troll the group (though I suspect not), cuz otherwise ... well, I said it to open this paragraph.

Hear me out. The original problem, as I saw it, was: how, as a man, do you find yourself in a marriage where you have a wife who voluntarily wants to please you sexually? Most men don't want to be in a situation where their wives don't try to look good and refuse sex. So how do you avoid that? I'm not claiming to know, but the paradigm I've adopted for myself is that I have to offer as much as possible, and, as an average-looking, somewhat short, dopey guy like me, that requires (but of course is not limited to) having a sizable income, and in my case, that means waiting a few years. Trust me, I think there are really important things besides that: Integrity. Having values. Being responsible. Dressing well. Staying fit. Etc.. But no matter how hard I try, and for most guys, unless they are male models or something, there is a limit to how much you can really improve yourself, and I believe a man can make up for those hard limits by improving his income. At least for myself, this is what I see. Bro, you don't know this, but I live in the cheapest apartment in town, I have no car, I have a job that pays right above poverty level. Do you think chicks at 29 want to date a 29-year-old with no car, and no house, and who lives in an apartment where the roof leaks every time it rains? Imagine the best case scenario for me, where I am a literal saint. Still I'm not gonna pull anyone.

[TAC]

H2,..

I had to reread your responses a couple of times..

I didn't mean to offend you by calling bullshit on your religion. It's just that after you wrote that, you wrote some ....maybe chauvinistic isn't the right word...I think it fits..but certainly sexist at worst.

My point about the DTF WAGS is that you've shared your thoughts with us. We are a bunch of "everymen". We're proof that hippos are not the norm.

My point about the Playboy Mansion is that your grand plan is great. It's what most guys dream of. Gonna have a big house, big job, young wife, etc... Yeah, and then we wake up.

I'm not sure where these attitudes on sex are coming from. Sex is so far down the list of what makes a successful marriage.

And your preoccupation with how a woman may look as they age or what their sex drive will be like...it's ridiculous. I get it. No one wants to be in a sexless marriage with a fat cow. But to have these as conscious thoughts is just extremely pessimistic and depressing. It's like you're expecting failure.

How about you live your life, and if you meet a girl you really like, just fucking go with it. Life is full of obstacles that you can't control. Don't place any unnecessary ones of your own.

[H2]

Ah, what you're saying is eminently reasonable. Thanks, TAC. I do have some paranoia and preoccupation with some of these things, so thanks for calling me out on it. Personally, things are not going well in the dating department, and they really haven't ever gone well, so I find it easy to turn to "success is the best revenge" types of narratives to motivate myself to be better. I never want to give up and stop believing in myself; I have a weird mixture of very high self-esteem and self-reliance with the belief that others perceive me as literal scum, so a big motivation for me is proving others wrong. Sometimes that manifests in ridiculous ideas.

[jingle.boy]

I'll give a more fully versed out response in the morning, but Tim nailed it.

I'm not sure where these attitudes on sex are coming from. Sex is so far down the list of what makes a successful marriage.

H, you have a very - I can't even think of the right adjective ... strange?  distorted? - view of what matters in a relationship and marriage.  And also an issue with self esteem and your beliefs of what matters to women.  I was a fat-fuck, making less than $30k a year 2-months into my first full-time job, living at my aunt and uncle's when I met mrs.jingle on a blind date setup by jingle.mom.  I can't help but think only thing preventing your lack of ability to form relationships is yourself.

More tomorrow to address some of your other points in your response to me.

[TAC]

I met mrs.jingle on a blind date setup by jingle.mom. 

They have arranged marriages in Canada?? 

[jingle.boy]

I met mrs.jingle on a blind date setup by jingle.mom. 

They have arranged marriages in Canada??

Apparently!  mrs.jingle taught at the same school as jingle.mom.

[H2]

More tomorrow to address some of your other points in your response to me.

While you're at it, maybe you can debunk another firmly held belief of mine, which is that people shouldn't get married unless they are financially ready to support kids. (Because unintended pregnancies are always a risk.) And that means being in a position to provide for them fully, especially saving for education. I know I have a lot of ridiculously wooden rules. But I'm also frustrated that Catholicism encourages young broke people to hook up, and then they don't provide the best to their kids, and that infuriates me. If only people were more patient! If only patience were taught as a virtue in this context!

[Podaar]

I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.

Fair enough. Intimacy is shown in different ways for different people. To me sex and intimacy are completely tied together.

I can see that, and it's not unreasonable. The trick is having a partner who's charmed by that. While it's possible to have intimacy without sex, it's impossible, by it's very nature, to have sex without some level of intimacy. Both participants must feel the draw to that intimacy or resentments, the breaking of trust (if you will) can creep into a relationship over this issue.

My goal for us now is to keep it as an open dialog where we always feel safe to talk to each other about it. We ignored the issue for over a decade and it nearly broke us.

Well said. This is all one can do, me thinks.

[jingle.boy]

I'm not going to create quote pyramids, lest this get to be a brutally difficult post.

First, by the purest definition of "chauvinism", you're right.  You don't blatantly or outright portray the belief of superiority over women.  However, since you are so pragmatic, one definition I found was "a male who patronizes, disparages, or otherwise denigrates females in the belief that they are inferior to males and thus deserving of less than equal treatment or benefit."  So let's just scratch that last part, and call it 'close enough'.  Only you know if you believe (consciously or otherwise) if women are inferior, but your initial post certainly (to me) is well characterized by the first part of this definition.  I'll also say that the only thing I agreed with is how you opened your post .... "have no idea what I'm talking about".  That part is obvious to anyone who read the whole post.

What disgusts me?  For starters, your focus is solely on the physical and material aspects of a relationship - appearance, sex life, finances - as if those are the only things that matter in a relationship/marriage.  Kid, until you realize that emotional connection, spirituality, companionship, parenting (should you ever have kids), communication, friendship etc... far outweigh whether you're driving a 5-series, have a 2000 sq ft home, getting a hummer monthly, or whether your partner fits into a size 4 for the rest of your life, you'll have nothing but superficial and meaningless relationships - hence my comment of your shallowness.

You posts screams that YOU should be your partners top priority.  To hell with her life, to hell with her career, kids, friends, interests, wants, needs, goals, etc... It's all about you - taking care of herself so that you're attracted to her; keeping up her sex drive so your needs are met.  And then suggest that if "the problem" (which is really YOUR problem) is on her end ... that it might be depression if she were not to meet your needs/expectations? Oh, but you'd be so gracious as to "suck it up" with her if it were an illness like cancer. You then state that "I personally feel I shouldn't leave" ... wow, that only took 4 paragraphs for you to come off your "religious" standard and belief that "divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery".* Again, right up to the border of chauvinism.

What else ... "I sort of think chicks should service their husbands"... does cross the border of even your definition of chauvinism.  Just because you quickly throw in the comment of 'vice versa' doesn't mean shit when "your" (ie, H's) job of servicing your partner is still you getting your sexual fulfillment and needs addressed.  "your your job as a spouse is to service your spouse" is a subtle (and perhaps subconscious) use of "your".  Not "the job of a spouse", but "your job" ... meaning, "her job".  Though I've no doubt you'll try to step that comment back, sometimes you just can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Moving on .... "women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc ".  Good luck with finding June Cleaver.  Fuck man, were you raised in the 50s?  You have a very misguided view of what (most) women want.  You write as if you're looking for the prototypical "barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen" wife.  You're the man ... you work all day to bring home the bacon while your spouse stays at home to fry it, and "service" your needs (sexual or otherwise)?  Again ... right up to the border of chauvinism, and now you've got a couple of toes across it.

Lastly, you set us all up with the veil of being "religious".  I absolutely detest when people hide behind the auspice of "religion" to defend/justify/validate bad beliefs or behaviour, or like religion makes it all ok and acceptable.  Isis is religious too, does that justify their beliefs?   But let's leave that for another discussion.

That about sums up why I'm disgusted with men that hold these kinds of beliefs.  Is that a cold (again, pretty apt word for you to chose to use) rational enough critique for you?

I'll tackle the rest of your response to me later.  I need to clear my head now.

*I suspect this is where/why Tim calls bullshit on your religiousness.   In the span of 4 paragraphs, you move from 'unacceptable' to 'I should stay'.  If you really truly do religiously believe that divorce is unacceptable except in the case of adultery, you'd have said 'I will/would stay'.

[Dave_Manchester]

For better or worse you have a knack for bringing me back to this place, H2.

Some thoughts on what you’ve been writing here. Firstly, you sometimes ask where you’re going “wrong” in your thinking, but with a theme like this it’s not really a matter of right or wrong. People love and are loved in different ways and you have to find the arrangement that best works for you. That said, some of the things you’re writing provoke obvious counter arguments.

First and foremost, your last point about how poor people should be discouraged from having children. If history had done this it would have robbed me of many of my favourite artists from Dostoevsky to Beethoven to Michelangelo. Many of the mathematical formulae that now put men in space or cure illnesses were discovered by people born into literal slums. My 2 favourite people in the world, myself and my wife, would not exist if poor people were discouraged from procreation. Money is not necessary to produce intelligent, productive people. I’ll take a world of Edgar Allen Poes and Srinivasa Ramanujans over Eric and Don Jr.

Sit down a minute because I am now going to pass around some tattered old black and white photographs. My father was from a lower-middle class family in the north of England. My mother was from a dirt-poor working class family; 5 sisters, 1 brother. They married when my dad was 21 and my mother was 19. The wedding dress was borrowed, you see how it’s too big on my mother. They had used their meagre budget to buy the wedding rings - cheap 9 carat gold that would never leave their fingers this side of the soil. Their first ‘apartment’ as husband and wife was a fetid shithole above the small shop my dad was renting. My brother was born into it. Dad was a greengrocer; my mother was a housewife for the first 20 years and then became a teacher of special needs children.

They were married for 42 years up until my father’s death from cancer in 2014. Like you (H2), I studied philosophy at university. I also have a deep passion for literature. I’ve read all the great words about love, from Goethe to Shakespeare to Pasternak to Tolstoy. I’ve also read all the cold intellectualization of love that philosophers bother themselves with; Aquinas, Augustine, Nietzsche, all the sexually dysfunctional neurotics. A lot of it is intellectually stimulating, but none of it comes as close – for myself and myself alone – to showing what true love is as my mother helping my father – her soulmate - face his death. For the last 2 years of his life he was in a very bad way, physically and psychologically. This kind, intelligent, proud man was reduced to a squalid and imbecilic embarrassment to himself (never to us); shitting himself in front of the nurses, unable to form proper thoughts because his brain was full of cancer, confined to a wheelchair and having to be pushed around by his 2 sons even though he himself was still barely 60 years old and just 10 years earlier had been a keen runner and swimmer. My mother’s heart was broken to see her husband like this, but nothing she ever did was out of pity. Shortly before his death my dad asked her for 2 things, one of which he realized she could not promise but the other she could. He wanted to die in his home (not in hospital), and he wanted to go in my mother’s arms. My mother made sure both happened. One of the last lucid conversations I had with my dad was him (needlessly) telling my brother and I to make sure my mother died in our arms, since he wouldn’t be around to do it for her.   

That to me is love, H2. It’s very difficult to describe, it can really only be witnessed and, hopefully, felt (I have been extremely fortunate to meet and marry my own soulmate). What I saw in my parents as they helped each other through their own distinct kinds of distress (him fear and grief at the impending separation, her the heartbreak of watching the man she loved be painfully broken down) was a kind of extraordinary strength. It’s a strength that I think of as ‘love’. It can do things which under ‘normal’ circumstances seem impossible. It’s nowhere near the same level as my mother but I was very afraid in the days up to the funeral that I would be too emotional to deliver my speech, but actually when I went up there and saw his coffin a weird calmness came over me and I spoke perfectly calmly. That too, I think, was the odd strength of love kicking in.

You’re familiar I suppose with the film Good Will Hunting, the scene where Robin Williams sits on the bench with Matt Damon and tries to show him the difference between experience and ‘intellect’:


“If I asked you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet, but you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes. Feeling like God put an angel on Earth just for you, who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her be there forever. Through anything. Through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping and sitting up in a hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes that the terms ‘visiting hours’ don't apply to you”.


People like Will Hunting, who are very limited in their experience of the world, sometimes take a kind of defensive ‘solace’ in what they imagine to be a ‘cold’, rational, intellectual plane. I suspect you do this too. I remember our (mine and yours, H2) chat in the P/R thread where you said that you’re an "ideologue". You’re also a fairly radicalised one in my opinion, I’ve told you before that I think you have the potentially dangerous combination of extreme unwarranted self-confidence and a limited understanding of the real world.

For that reason, if you’re sincere about wanting real advice and input into your arguments (I have less than zero interest in engaging in an ‘intellectual’ debate and ‘testing ideas’, I left that stuff back where it belongs, the self-serious lecture halls of university), then here is what I have to offer: scale back the extent to which you try to intellectualise things. In P/R you said you’re an ideologue, yet ideology should be founded upon a wealth of experience and wisdom, which you don’t seem to have. You’re going about things backwards. Here you have laid out what you admit are “ridiculously wooden” rules for relationships, but of what use are rules for a ‘game’ you haven’t even played yet? Fall in love first and then see how long your ‘rules’ hold out.  You said you’re religious, and in that fine tradition you seem more concerned with establishing rules and moral laws that other people should live by, but not you (did I understand you correctly, you’re a virgin? You said sex before marriage isn’t acceptable). I don’t know which religion you subscribe to (don’t tell me because it doesn’t matter) but you seem to have a very soulless and self-serving attitude to other people. My advice to you hasn’t changed since our chat in P/R about America and Iran: focus less on constructing an abstract world view, divorced of history and experience, and try to engage with the real world on its level, i.e. a chaotic, unpredictable, ungovernable, wonderful mystery. The things you're reading aren't shaping you into a wise young man so leave it behind, live a while, go travel the world for a year or something like that, experience some of these things you so far only write about.

Peace.

[Stadler]

Not to pile on, H2, but one other aspect struck me: "that's what I see".   It's not about what you "see", because what you see is inherently biased.  Even if you have 100 friends that are married and every one of them is, actually, in a relationship where the "chick services the man", or "the woman values child-rearing", it's not indicative.   One, you can have those ASPECTS of a relationship without it being the defining characteristic of the relationship.   My wife "values child-rearing". She has three kids and is a step mom to mine.   Guess what, though; I value child-rearing too.  It was the one thing that "got me" to remarry, is a stable family life for my kid (and, hubris, alert, I thought I could bring some stability to her kids' life; I'm blessed that two of the three - the oldest - have said (sober, haha) that I'm more of a father than they've ever had.  LITERALLY the highest complement I've ever been paid in my life).    But neither of us are DEFINED by that.  It's a part of who we are.

There are times when she does "serve" me.  And there are times when I serve her.  We are (or we aspire to be) a team.  She does what I can't do, and I do what she can't.  We try to make each other better, more complete.   Sure, we have our problems and (hopefully) we work through them, but this is not a plan.  This is not your annual objectives sheet at work, nor is it a syllabus for a class you're taking. It's LIFE.  She's going to have her days, you're going to have yours, and they're not all going to be a scene out of a movie.  You're not always going to have the answers. She's not always going to tell you.  Fuck, you may not even have the QUESTIONS sometimes.   But it is what it is.  You are two lives intertwined, full and complete on their own, but growing in synergy - or not, sometimes - together. 

I'm a "man plans, God laughs" sort of guy to begin with, and even then, getting married told me that "laughs" is often an understatement.     Now, maybe you'll find someone that is content with being your submissive (I don't mean that in a sexual way); and if that works for you and her, so be it.   Life is full of choices.  But I think you're cheating yourself (and her) from the possibilities.

EDIT:  Love Dave's post; I have that in my family.  My dad, stricken with debilitating arthritis at a young age (as a young boy I would have to help dress my dad for work; how humbling for him) and now my mom with Alzheimer's... they have been married for 57 years this year; the four days my mom spent in the hospital late in December was the first time they didn't share a bed since the 1990's AT LEAST.  My dad - my hero, in all ways - has admitted to being scared ONCE in my entire 53 years, and that was during that hospital stay when we weren't 100% sure she was coming home.   

[kirksnosehair]

 

jingle.boy epic post

[H2]

Keep it coming, all; I'm listening.

[H2]

your focus is solely on the physical and material aspects of a relationship - appearance, sex life, finances

Those are just the things we've been talking about, and so those are the things I chose to write about, but I'm also concerned about deeper things--shared meaning, shared suffering, shared living. Don't me wrong, I think things like sex life and finance matter. How could they not? But they matter just as much as other things matter.

You posts screams that YOU should be your partners top priority.  To hell with her life, to hell with her career, kids, friends, interests, wants, needs, goals, etc...

In all my relationships, I want to help the other person be the fullest version of themselves and to be able to pursue their dreams. I want what she wants. If she wants a career, great. That said, I wouldn't sign a binding contract with someone who doesn't value a regular healthy sex life. Why would I?

What else ... "I sort of think chicks should service their husbands"... does cross the border of even your definition of chauvinism.  Just because you quickly throw in the comment of 'vice versa' doesn't mean shit

Maybe you just don't like the way I phrased things. You are reading chauvinism in between the lines, perhaps I think because you have this preconceived idea of who I am. I think spouses should service their spouses. How is that chauvinistic? And that logically entails that wives should service their husbands.

*wisdom*

Thanks. You're a great writer, and your stories conjure up vivid images in the imagination, which I know for you and your family were a lived reality. I'll try to experience more things. Without experience, though, all I have to go off of are principles, and so, *for now*, my principles are what I have to guide my actions. What else can I do? But I'm open to being proven wrong by time. PS Haven't seen Good Will Hunting, but you've sold it for me.

First and foremost, your last point about how poor people should be discouraged from having children. If history had done this it would have robbed me of many of my favourite artists from Dostoevsky to Beethoven to Michelangelo.

I can't resist the temptation to argue against you here. Just because it turns out that some decisions turn out to have positive consequences does not make the unwise decisions into wise ones. What am I supposed to do with the information that poor couples have successful kids? Is that supposed to change my own decision procedure?

*wisdom*

I agree whole-heartedly with your perspective here, and I feel that you are representing my own beliefs in a much more likable, nuanced way. I think I just have a bad habit of phrasing things in brutally ideological ways.

[YtseBitsySpider]

this is the internet...everyone has opinions. And don't we all  just feel compelled to share them.

I like "hippos" which I assume refers to "bigger women". It's actually what attracts me. Big Time.

I break the little ones. (smirk) I need me a Harley. Big chromy parts and curvy fenders. Them little racing bikes are wound too tight....**TWANG** she broken.

oh...and bosk because I didn't feel like reading all thirteen pages...how did your NBA scrap turn out? Some suspensions?

[Dave_Manchester]

H2, since you haven't seen it, at least watch this scene. It's most of what I'm talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRG2jlQWCsY