Parenting/marital advice

[lordxizor]

To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy.  Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good.

I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out of so that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.

[jingle.boy]

To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy.  Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good.

I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out ofso that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.

Again... subconsciously you are keeping score.  I used to do this - mentally keep tabs on all the things I would do for mrs.jingle, and get nothing in return.  Now I just do things for her because that's what being a good husband is about.  I'm clearly not getting anything sexual out of it, but it doesn't mean I stop doing it.  I've just stopped thinking about what I'm not getting.  It's not a healthy thought process.

[KevShmev]

To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy.  Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good.

I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out of so that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.

Well, I think it goes without saying that men and women, for the most part, have different views on sex, not to mention that men (generally speaking, as I know there are many exceptions in both directions) seem to have a much higher sex drive/need for sex.  What makes men happy is not always the same thing that makes women happy, and when I say that, I am talking about many things, not necessarily sex.

And I know it is risky to say such things nowadays when we are supposed to act like men and women are exactly the same and how dare we discuss it and differentiate between the two, but let's be honest here for a bit, eh?

[King Postwhore]

Gregg, Chad & Kevin have said some poignant thoughts.  I think you need to be delicate with this situation.  Therapy is the right call.  There is something right now that is stopping her from sex and she is not willing to explain so that's why you need to tread lightly.  Therapy may be the way for her to open up.

[lordxizor]

xizor, first and foremost, I hope that you don't think we're all jumping all over you on this.  You were seeking advice, and we're offering it - though it may not be what you wanted or expected to hear.  I think many of us are trying to help you see your blindspot(s) on this matter.  With that said ...

Honestly that kind of talk sounds like maybe you are the problem. 

Really? As I said, if I was unable to get it up, I'd still find ways to please her sexually assuming she wanted it. I don't understand why expecting the occasional handjob or something would be unreasonable if she was unable to have sex. Of course my expectations would be low, bur we don't get to completly ignore our spouses needs just because it may be a little difficult for us.

I think this just goes to how polar opposite you and your wife are around the importance of sexual intimacy.  The fact that you're already in a situation where you say you recognize her struggles with it, and then suggest that you would still perform "for" her if you had physical limitations is (to me) tone deaf to your reality, and selfish. If she has and extremely low sex drive/desire while you're physically fine, what makes you think it would be important for you to pleasure her if you had physical limitations.  This may not be what you're directly thinking or suggesting, but the simple fact that you expressed that thought/opinion is telling (and I'm now the 4th person to recognize it as such).   I'm beginning to wonder if you have an addiction of some manner.  Once a week isn't sufficient and disappoints you?  You have 4 kids and a newborn, right?  I'm not sure I wanted (or needed) sex weekly when I was 39, let alone under that family environment! 

Look, I could probably write 4-5 pages on this topic as it relates to the jingle.marriage (I'm not being hyperbolic at all, I'll try to summarize some points below), but I suggest you practice a little bit more empathy, and see your situation for how it is, not how you want it to be.  I'm not judging you at all for sexual intimacy being an important piece of your marriage, and if it is THE most important piece then there is a lot of soul-searching you (and mrs xizor) have to do.  Physical Touch is also my primary love language, but for mrs.jingle it's primarily Quality Time and Words of Affection (secondary).  So it hurt me to no end when mrs.jingle once said a few years ago on this topic "I guess I'm just not that physical a person".  Mrs.jingle is the only woman I've been with.  I thought our sexual relationship during the dating stage was great (though, I had no point of reference).  Once married, it got rather clinical, as she wanted kids asap. For the 15 years after the jingle.kids were born, it was once a month, pretty much like clockwork - occasionally more, sometimes less.  Then about 5 years ago, that started to decline, and we'd go a few months at a time with nothing.  We'd have sex maybe 6-8 times a year.  Right now, it's been 7 months (Father's Day weekend was the last time we had sex).  There's a lot of factors and reasons, not all of which I think are fair or reasonable, but it is what it is, and I'm incredibly unsatisfied with our sexual relationship.  However, I've learned to accept this as reality, and found other ways to be happy with my life and marriage, despite this gap in my needs around feeling loved and sexual fulfillment as part of my overall happiness.  For my own needs, I workout; I listen to a lot of music; I have this community; I have a satisfying career.  For our relationship, I love and appreciate every other aspect of our marriage and of mrs.jingle as a wife, mom, and person (she's wonderful at all three, the sexual issue notwithstanding), and I have lots to love about it.  I believe it is ultimately *MY* responsibility to love and care for myself.  It's nobody's job on this planet except my own to make myself happy, to satisfy/fulfill my definition of being happy.  So, it's up to me to fill my life with love, and while sexual intimacy would make me feel a lot of love from mrs.jingle, it's expecting something that she's not capable of.  As such, I've adjusted my expectations accordingly, and filled my life with other things that allow me love myself and love my life, ALL things considered.

I agree with other comments that your attitude, beliefs, and expectations are part of the problem.  You say that you recognize it isn't a competition, but your comments very much suggest you are keeping score to some degree (despite your indication that it's a matter of how you're communicating it to us).  It seems to me you are expecting things out of her that she's incapable of providing.  Expecting someone to do and be capable of something they're not is a recipe for disappointment (you wouldn't go to your doctor if your transmission was shot!), and it seems that's exactly where you are - hence my comment on practicing empathy.

Just because you think what you want seems "incredibly reasonable" and "logical" means jack shit.  Your wife may think that once a month (or year) is reasonable.  Your teenager may think that having a boyfriend 10 years older than her is incredibly reasonable.  The Libz may think it's reasonable for the gov't to wipe out student debt.  Your neighbour may think it's reasonable to have a backyard party blaring music all night.  Ones definition of logic and what's reasonable is theirs, and theirs alone.  If all of us here tell you you're being unreasonable, would that instantly change your beliefs?  I would suspect not ... which kinda proves the point.  What I think as (un)reasonable doesn't - and shouldn't matter to you.  Ergo, what you think is reasonable doesn't really matter.  Sure, I'm just some dude on the internet a thousand miles away, but I don't think it changes when the people in question are married.

To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy.  Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good.

And a sammich every once and a while.

Thanks for your comments. I really was looking for advice and I am taking all of it seriously. I get what you're saying. I really do. I have backed way off from what I was pushing for a year ago out of respect and empathy for her. I know that I will never get everything I want and have reset my expectations accordingly. I know we're at a point in life that one would expect things to slow down. The problem is that during some of what should have been our peak sexual years, I was getting a quarter or less as much sex as I wanted and virtually nothing outside of extremely vanilla. I just want to get to a point where it feels like we're meeting in the middle instead of 90% to her end of the spectrum.

Honestly, what is most frustrating and hurts the most is that sex is different than all the things she needs. I can't claim that it's difficult for me to run errands for her or that I just don't have the desire to give her a shoulder massage after a long day. That would make me sound like a complete asshole. Yet, when I explain that feeling desired sexually is fundamental to my sense of well-being in our relationship and is the single best way she can show me that she loves me and wants me to be her husband and not just the guy who pays the bills, it's perfectly acceptable for her to say "well, I just don't want to do that anymore" and I'm just supposed to accept that.

[lordxizor]

To add a little levity, this whole thing just proves what I have said for years about men: we are not that hard to keep happy.  Just be nice to us and give us some action on a somewhat regular basis and we are good.

I know right? That's why this is so hard for me! It would be so damn simple for her to please me and yet she refuses to do more than the bare minimum. I put in a ton of effort to make her feel important, loved, appreciated, etc. I do so many things that I don't want to do and get nothing out ofso that she knows she's my top priority. All I want in return is for her to have sex with me more often and in more exciting ways, something that she gets enjoyment out of too! Yet apparently that's unreasonable to ask for.

Again... subconsciously you are keeping score.  I used to do this - mentally keep tabs on all the things I would do for mrs.jingle, and get nothing in return.  Now I just do things for her because that's what being a good husband is about.  I'm clearly not getting anything sexual out of it, but it doesn't mean I stop doing it.  I've just stopped thinking about what I'm not getting.  It's not a healthy thought process.

Yes, this is something I struggle with. I try not to keep a mental scorecard, and I don't consciously think of it that way, but sooner or later it starts to creep into my mind that I'm busting my ass for her and getting little in return. I wholeheartedly agree that we're supposed to make sacrifices and work hard for our spouses, but that needs to go both ways.

[TAC]

Does she not cook meals that you especially like?
Does she keep the house clean? Does she spend time to plan vacations to include activities that everyone, including you, will enjoy?
Does she work, or is she a homemaker (just as important as working)?

Or does she just simply ignore you completely?


If the only issue is sex, then you have it better than most guys, just so you know.

[lordxizor]

Does she not cook meals that you especially like?
Does she keep the house clean? Does she spend time to plan vacations to include activities that everyone, including you, will enjoy?
Does she work, or is she a homemaker (just as important as working)?

Or does she just simply ignore you completely?


If the only issue is sex, then you have it better than most guys, just so you know.

I do 80% of the cooking. I do more cleaning than her and regularly clean up after her. I plan most of the vacations and weekends away. She's a homeschooling mom, so she's home with the kids and works really hard at that, which I regularly acknowledge. She pours her heart and soul into our children, which I appreciate, but often feel like there's very little effort left for me

She doesn't ignore me. We have a pretty good relationship. We parent together well, talk a fair amount, and generally get along well. I don't see any glaring issues outside of the bedroom. And honestly many men with young kids would be thrilled with the once or twice a month she was willing to have sex with me for most of the last 12 years. But I was ignored and rejected 100s of times over that period of time.

I know in the grand scheme of things it could be far worse. But that's not what I want to think about my life: "it could have been worse." I want a great life.

[TAC]

Ok, and I wasn't asking to be judgemental, only to get a clearer picture of the landscape.


What you want may not be possible with this woman. That's OK too.

[Kwyjibo]

I think, among many other things, you should just accept that only a small percentage of married couples get the sexlife they dream of, the perfect relationship,  that's just for movies and romance novels.

[lordxizor]

I think, among many other things, you should just accept that only a small percentage of married couples get the sexlife they dream of, the perfect relationship,  that's just for movies and romance novels.

That's true. As I said before, I've recalibrated my expectations and now feel like I would be happy if I felt she was meeting me in the middle instead of only taking one tiny step in my direction. A year ago I wasn't going to be happy with anything other than my wildest expectations.

[Podaar]

And a sammich every once and a while.

This had to be said. Well done.

[jingle.boy]

I think, among many other things, you should just accept that only a small percentage of married couples get the sexlife they dream of, the perfect relationship,  that's just for movies and romance novels.

That's true. As I said before, I've recalibrated my expectations and now feel like I would be happy if I felt she was meeting me in the middle instead of only taking one tiny step in my direction. A year ago I wasn't going to be happy with anything other than my wildest expectations.

That is progress, so good for you. (No snark)

[lordxizor]

You know... I think this all boils down to one thing for me and this is a question I have for myself in several areas beyond just sex.

How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?

Honestly, this is a struggle with finances, the kids, our marriage in other areas, and more. I just want to be content with life as it is, but I have hopes and dreams. I strive for improvement, not for staying stuck in the status quo. I don't know how to balance the drive for continual improvement with just being content.

[jingle.boy]

How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?

This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy.  And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else.  I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own.  I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.

[Kwyjibo]

How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?

Maybe start by asking yourself why you think things should be different than they are now. Meaning, is it a desire you feel deep inside, that you should improve, or is it something that people say to you, maybe even expect of you? And are you trying to meet people's (and maybe even society's) expectations, or are you doing it, regardless of what people may say.

[Kwyjibo]

it's no one's job except my own to make me happy

This is so true and yet so hard to do, it's so much easier to lay the blame why I'm unhappy on someone else. I definitely know this and I struggle daily with it.

[lordxizor]

How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?

This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy.  And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else.  I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own.  I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.

Yeah, I get his, but how do you get yourself to fully buy in on it? I had that realization over a year ago and worked really hard to change my mindset. It helped in many ways and I'm in a significantly better place, but I struggle to let go of my desires. How do I convince myself to stop wanting things that I cannot make happen on my own? Realizing you need to let things go and actually doing it are two very different things.

[jingle.boy]

How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?

This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy.  And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else.  I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own.  I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.

Yeah, I get his, but how do you get yourself to fully buy in on it? I had that realization over a year ago and worked really hard to change my mindset. It helped in many ways and I'm in a significantly better place, but I struggle to let go of my desires. How do I convince myself to stop wanting things that I cannot make happen on my own?

I don't know that I have an answer for you, let alone an easy one - if it was simple or easy, everyone would/could do it all the time   .  For me, it came via reading* during my bouts of depression.  No one was put on this Earth to take care of ME (other than my parents, and their job is done).  If I'm not taking care of ME, I'm sure as hell not going to do a good job taking care of anyone else.  This was a literal epiphany for me - that *I* own my happiness, no one else.  Not my kids, not my wife, not my friends, not my employer, not my parents .... no one cares more about my happiness than me.  Period.  Full stop.  So I started figuring out what made me happy in and of myself, and took complete responsibility to fill my 'love tank' (for those that have read the Love Languages).  Anything that anyone else does for me, gives to me, provides etc ... is just gravy.

And don't get me wrong, I struggle with this often as well, and sometimes come across as selfish with my decisions and actions.

* I think it was from the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover - which I was reading, ironically, with the purpose of being a better person so that mrs.jingle would be more attracted to me ! 

[lordxizor]

I don't know that I have an answer for you, let alone an easy one - if it was simple or easy, everyone would/could do it all the time   .  For me, it came via reading* during my bouts of depression.  No one was put on this Earth to take care of ME (other than my parents, and their job is done).  If I'm not taking care of ME, I'm sure as hell not going to do a good job taking care of anyone else.  This was a literal epiphany for me - that *I* own my happiness, no one else.  Not my kids, not my wife, not my friends, not my employer, not my parents .... no one cares more about my happiness than me.  Period.  Full stop.  So I started figuring out what made me happy in and of myself, and took complete responsibility to fill my 'love tank' (for those that have read the Love Languages).  Anything that anyone else does for me, gives to me, provides etc ... is just gravy.

And don't get me wrong, I struggle with this often as well, and sometimes come across as selfish with my decisions and actions.

* I think it was from the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover - which I was reading, ironically, with the purpose of being a better person so that mrs.jingle would be more attracted to me ! 

Unfortunately for me, Covid really put a cramp on my efforts to make myself happy in ways apart from my wife. I was getting out with friends more, going to see movies by myself to get some me time, and it was helping. Not really being able to do those things or not feeling like they're worth the risk right now has been hard. There's also something kind of depressing to consciously move away from having your spouse make you happy. I feel like making each other happy is one of our fundamental jobs as a married couple. Not that we need to bend over backwards for each other, but doing little things to make each other happy is part of the gig. I guess in my situation the issue is that I see these things I want as being tiny little things she can do to make me happy, but she sees it as bending over backwards for me.

[jingle.boy]

I hear you... I really do - on Covid putting a cramp in your 'happy things', and on being depressed for the loss of the relationship you want and in some regards, what we believe is a significant part of a marriage.  Mourning and grief over that was a not insignificant contributor to my depression throughout the mid 2010s.  Like I said, I don't have an easy answer for you on how to cope through it.  For me, it was very much like grieving and mourning a significant loss - as that's exactly what it was.  It took time, that's for sure.

[lordxizor]

I hear you... I really do - on Covid putting a cramp in your 'happy things', and on being depressed for the loss of the relationship you want and in some regards, what we believe is a significant part of a marriage.  Mourning and grief over that was a not insignificant contributor to my depression throughout the mid 2010s.  Like I said, I don't have an easy answer for you on how to cope through it.  For me, it was very much like grieving and mourning a significant loss - as that's exactly what it was.  It took time, that's for sure.

Grieving is a good way to put it. When this all first started for me in late 2019, I really felt like I was grieving the loss of the woman I married. I would look at the photos we have up of ourselves from back then and it would make me want to cry. I miss that woman so much. She has changed so much, in some good ways, but in many ways I'm not thrilled with.

[jingle.boy]

I hear you... I really do - on Covid putting a cramp in your 'happy things', and on being depressed for the loss of the relationship you want and in some regards, what we believe is a significant part of a marriage.  Mourning and grief over that was a not insignificant contributor to my depression throughout the mid 2010s.  Like I said, I don't have an easy answer for you on how to cope through it.  For me, it was very much like grieving and mourning a significant loss - as that's exactly what it was.  It took time, that's for sure.

Grieving is a good way to put it. When this all first started for me in late 2019, I really felt like I was grieving the loss of the woman I married. I would look at the photos we have up of ourselves from back then and it would make me want to cry. I miss that woman so much. She has changed so much, in some good ways, but in many ways I'm not thrilled with.

I know it took a lot for me to understand and accept of myself, but invariably both spouses change over the years/decades.  Expecting things to stay the same is also a recipe for disappointment.

[Lethean]

xizor, I pretty much agree with what everyone else is telling you here and think you need to find a way to come to terms with it (or face a tough decision if you really can't). 

The timing all seems a little unsettling to me.  Is it right that your wife just gave birth in November?  From what I know from friends and co-workers with kids, seems like you're actually having more sex than most a few months post partum.  You have a baby.  Before that she gave birth, before that she was pregnant, and then before that... it seems like you were being so demanding that she had trauma come back up and you said she needed prayers and healing. The trauma is not your fault *at all* - you didn't cause it or know about it.  But I get the sense that you were being pushy in a way that would make a lot of spouses uncomfortable even without that history.  I'm glad you've backed off from that.  It sounds like she's had a crappy year.

Try to realize that your wife is still recovering from birth, pregnancy, her past, and maybe now isn't the time to be asking questions like "what have you done recently to show me you love me."  I know you've both read that book about love languages and it's probably insightful but I don't think a marriage counselor would say that questioning her like that is helpful to your marriage. 

I do feel for you on this though:

"Sitting and really connecting is great as well, but most nights she'd rather look at her phone than talk to me."

In most of your posts you insist that the marriage is great except for your sex life, but then you say that.  Maybe she just needs that kind of mindless down time after homeschooling kids and now having a newborn.  It's nice to just be able to sit and waste time on your phone, or watching tv, or whatever.  But of course you want to spend time with her.  Maybe that's an area you could work on a little.  Maybe you could give her her me time but also ask her to make time for something simple you both enjoy.  Maybe watching tv, listening to an audio book together, doing a puzzle, etc. 

If nothing works and she doesn't want to spend time with you... I don't know.  Maybe that's when you insist on marriage counseling.  Not to fix her, but at least work through some of these issues.

[lordxizor]

The timing all seems a little unsettling to me.  Is it right that your wife just gave birth in November?  From what I know from friends and co-workers with kids, seems like you're actually having more sex than most a few months post partum.  You have a baby.  Before that she gave birth, before that she was pregnant, and then before that... it seems like you were being so demanding that she had trauma come back up and you said she needed prayers and healing. The trauma is not your fault *at all* - you didn't cause it or know about it.  But I get the sense that you were being pushy in a way that would make a lot of spouses uncomfortable even without that history.  I'm glad you've backed off from that.  It sounds like she's had a crappy year.

Yes, we had a baby 3 months ago. I was not planning on bringing this all back up with her again for quite a while. Like at least another 6 months until the baby is sleeping through the night. She brought it up the other day which lead to a conversation. Since it was fresh in my mind talking with her, I brought it up here. In no way do I expect immediate results and I made that clear with her. One of the issues that first kicked this all off was not talking about our expectations after having our first kid. Things just fell into this negative place where she ignored and rejected me and we never discussed it. Since she brought it up the other day, I was honest with her about what I want (eventually) and I intend to keep the dialog open.

For the record, when her trauma was dredged up a year ago, I did not know about it. She had been keeping that from me for our entire 14 years together at that point. It was Valentine's day and I sent her what I thought was a fun message about wanting to have a special night for valentine's day and I would love if she came up with a fun bedroom idea that wasn't the same old routine we always follow. That was literally it, almost word for word. Yes, we had been going through a couple months where I was asking for more than I had in the past. "Pushing" is too strong of a word. I made it clear to her at the time that for the first time in our marriage I was actually going to ask for what I wanted. She of course had the right to say no, but I was going to ask. I had been too self conscious and timid to speak up about my desires before. I thought at the time (and still think looking back on it) that I was very respectful about how I asked, but clearly it dredged up something for her, which I felt awful about. There was no way I could have known that simply asking would have hurt her so much. I basically backed off completely at that point. We found out she was pregnant a few days later.

Basically I bring this up to plan for the future. To figure out how, when the time is right, I can start asking for what I want again in a way that's not going to send her back to the same place as a year ago. Our conversation the other day was good, but still frustrating which lead me here.

[lordxizor]

I appreciate everyone's input and suggestions. I really have taken all you've said to heart and fully acknowledge that I need to change my expectations. I definitely need to find a way to not take the rejection so personally since I know that this is largely about how she feels about herself and not me.

Unless anyone has anything different to add, I'm going to end this conversation here. PM me if you think you have something to add that might help me and hasn't already been said.

Thanks again. Really helpful conversation even if it wasn't all what I really want to hear.

[Phoenix87x]

Nevermind

[Stadler]

How can I make myself be happy with how things are and let go of how I think things could be?

This sounds similar to the epiphany I had a few years back (and I already touched on) - it's no one's job except my own to make me happy.  And conversely, it's not my job to own the happiness of anyone else.  I can contribute to others' happiness (as they can to mine), but my happiness is my own to own.  I can be miserable for the things I don't have, or the things I'm not getting, or I can let go of that which I can't control, and be happy with what I do have and do.

Yeah, I get his, but how do you get yourself to fully buy in on it? I had that realization over a year ago and worked really hard to change my mindset. It helped in many ways and I'm in a significantly better place, but I struggle to let go of my desires. How do I convince myself to stop wanting things that I cannot make happen on my own?

I don't know that I have an answer for you, let alone an easy one - if it was simple or easy, everyone would/could do it all the time   .  For me, it came via reading* during my bouts of depression.  No one was put on this Earth to take care of ME (other than my parents, and their job is done).  If I'm not taking care of ME, I'm sure as hell not going to do a good job taking care of anyone else.  This was a literal epiphany for me - that *I* own my happiness, no one else.  Not my kids, not my wife, not my friends, not my employer, not my parents .... no one cares more about my happiness than me.  Period.  Full stop.  So I started figuring out what made me happy in and of myself, and took complete responsibility to fill my 'love tank' (for those that have read the Love Languages).  Anything that anyone else does for me, gives to me, provides etc ... is just gravy.

And don't get me wrong, I struggle with this often as well, and sometimes come across as selfish with my decisions and actions.

* I think it was from the book No More Mister Nice Guy by Dr. Robert Glover - which I was reading, ironically, with the purpose of being a better person so that mrs.jingle would be more attracted to me !

I think one key step is being honest with yourself.  "Making yourself happy" may not - or may - mean "hammered every night and banging strippers".  I know for me, there are things I wish I was getting - not just sex - from my marriage, but being honest, my epiphany was really about honestly defining "happy". 

[kirksnosehair]

We enjoy plenty of things. We have a very good relationship apart from this. And if she had a physical reason she could have sex, I'd still expect some sexual activity assuming she wasn't paralyzed or something. If I had ED I'd find other ways to please her.

Damn, bro. OK then.

Good luck, brother!

Beat me to it.  That was my reaction too.

lordxizor, I really think YOU should try talking to a therapist about this because after reading through this thread and seeing you making comments like the one TAC highlighted above I have a feeling that this kind of entitled attitude you have about her apparently being "expected" to service you regardless of her physical status, to be blunt, kind of comes across as very selfish.  Sorry, that's just the impression I'm getting and the more you tell us about how YOU are thinking, the stronger that impression gets.  It seems like you feel she owes you something.  If you're carrying this kind of attitude in your relationship with her, then I'm not surprised in the least that she won't touch you.  Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but you asked for opinions, and to me I think you might need to work on cleaning up your side of the street before you blame this on her, which is exactly what you're doing here. 

[H2]

Obligatory "I am 12 and what is this"

But seriously, at age 29, I am woefully unsuccessful in romance and have no idea what I'm talking about, and I don't feel that I can contribute to this discussion as well as some of the wiser, more experienced people here. I have not yet been broken by the world. So I'm just spitballing a little bit. I'm in no position to offer advice to anyone, so I will not do that.

Disclaimer: I am religious and believe the following things as assumptions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt: (i) divorce is not acceptable except in cases of adultery, (ii) sex before marriage is not OK, (iii) artificial birth control is not OK, and (iv) husbands and wives are duty-bound to serve each other. I just want to get that out of the way before saying anything else, because it shapes how I think about things.

Losing attraction for my future spouse is one of my biggest fears and a major reason why I've been cautious about getting involved in romantic entanglements. I often look at older men and their wives and I ask myself, "Would I trade places with them?" Very often, I think to myself, no way in hell. I see hippopotamuses with bob-cuts, and that makes me want to nope out of the marriage path real quick. There is no problem with getting older, getting stretch marks, getting crows feet, but some people really do let themselves go. Call me a sexist pig, but I wouldn't want to be with someone who just puts in no effort to look good. Don't get me wrong, I am far from perfect as is, and I looking pretty homeless right now, and I pretty much view myself as un-dateable at this point (but I'm working on it).

I'm also super fearful of being with a woman who loses her sex drive. That would be agonizing and frustrating to break out of.

In light of my fears, my game plan is to wait until I'm older, am done with grad school, have a ginormous income and a lot of money, and then go for a younger woman. I'm thinking that when I'm 36 I'll go for a 25-yr-old. That way, I'll have a lot to offer, and she's younger and therefore will have a longer sex life, and there isn't much biological pressure to have kids ASAP because fertility issues are not yet present. Preferably someone from a family-oriented community where the women value child-rearing, cooking, cleaning, family, etc.. I know I'm a pig for this, but it results in the best situation for me, so, yeah, sorry not sorry. And she's taken care of--it's a win-win for everyone. I play the long game and I'm overly cautious of bad marriage outcomes.

However, in the event that my wife stops taking care of herself or loses her sex drive... At that point I'd consider which of the following two situations we are in: (1) She's not keeping up because of something about me, and (2) She's not keeping up because of something about her. My first step would be to figure out which situation I'm in. Then, if we are in situation (1), I would try to get her to tell me completely and honestly the things I need to do to improve (probably easier said than done). But if we are in situation (2), the problem is on her end and there is literally nothing I can do. She might just be depressed. She is afflicted by this external thing, just as though she had cancer or some bodily disease. And I would suck it up with her; she's hurting, so therefore I am hurting. For religious reasons, I personally feel I shouldn't leave, and I would think that I am "supposed" to be hurting, too.

Maybe, lordxizor, you are in situation (2), and you are trying different things to fix something that is not in your power to fix, and it is frustrating to see that nothing works. I don't want to presume anything, but maybe she is not happy in life generally, in ways that don't have anything to do with marriage or family issues.

Oh yeah, and a lot of people are filled with ire by the suggestion that expecting sex is reasonable. Surely it's reasonable to an extent. Sometime you just gotta do things you don't wanna do. She wants to go to Cirque de Soleil, so you go. You really don't want to, but it's just what you do. So I sort of think chicks should service their husbands (and vice versa, even though that scenario is more rare), because I believe your job as a spouse is to service your spouse. (That said, I could see how phrasing things so woodenly to your spouse would be a turn-off. I think it should just be implicitly understood on both ends that you do things to make each other happy.)

[TAC]

Goddamn bro. You make Lordixor seem like the perfect gentleman.

I'm gonna have to read that again after dinner before I comment.

[H2]

Goddamn bro. You make Lordixor seem like the perfect gentleman.

I aim to serve 

I also tend to be slightly (read: majorly) hyperbolic on the internet; it's a nice place to test ideas. IRL, I have a more tempered perspective. But lo, the internet.

[lordxizor]

I said I was going to end the conversation, but I have one more question for you all.

Do you think that sex is a fundamental part of marriage?

[Podaar]

I would say, rather, that intimacy is a fundamental component of a successful marriage.

[lordxizor]

We enjoy plenty of things. We have a very good relationship apart from this. And if she had a physical reason she could have sex, I'd still expect some sexual activity assuming she wasn't paralyzed or something. If I had ED I'd find other ways to please her.

Damn, bro. OK then.

Good luck, brother!

Beat me to it.  That was my reaction too.

lordxizor, I really think YOU should try talking to a therapist about this because after reading through this thread and seeing you making comments like the one TAC highlighted above I have a feeling that this kind of entitled attitude you have about her apparently being "expected" to service you regardless of her physical status, to be blunt, kind of comes across as very selfish.  Sorry, that's just the impression I'm getting and the more you tell us about how YOU are thinking, the stronger that impression gets.  It seems like you feel she owes you something.  If you're carrying this kind of attitude in your relationship with her, then I'm not surprised in the least that she won't touch you.  Again, I'm not trying to be harsh, but you asked for opinions, and to me I think you might need to work on cleaning up your side of the street before you blame this on her, which is exactly what you're doing here. 

I genuinely wanted your opinions, so no worries about being harsh. I'd like to point out when I made that comment, I was picturing a situation in which she was otherwise completely healthy, but normal sex was not an option for some reason. The equivalent of ED where viagra didn't work. If I were in that situation I would absolutely do my best to please her sexually if she wanted it. My expectations would absolutely be extremely low in that scenario, but I don't think it's ridiculous to expect something a few times a year.