Parenting/marital advice

[cramx3]

I'm not sure I know enough about diminishing returns, but if you go for a science degree, I'd imagine it's worth your time and investment.  Getting an arts degree probably isn't.  I do believe people can overcome not having a degree and be successful, but it's getting harder to do that.  You've got to get your foot in the door somehow and without a degree, you can't even get close to have a toe in.  I do think the people who are hard workers and have the drive can find a way to make it work, but on average, I think you'll want a degree to give yourself the best opportunity.

Anecdotal, but of my 10 friends from high school that all keep in touch regularly, only one didn't go to college and he is easily the least successful (I'd probably say he's the least happy as well, since I value happiness more so than money) and the only one of us who doesn't own a home (besides my one friend who is in his residency as a doctor).

[Cool Chris]

Just thinking about college brings up too many painful memories, so while I want to chime in on this, those emotions are going to come out and impact whatever I say in such a negative way.

My wife loved college and it helped pave the way for her to be where she is professionally now. I wasted every second on my time (and parents money) and came out at the end wondering if 10 people would show up at my funeral if I died, and never parlayed my degree in to anything more than $35k/yr doing work a dropout with their GED could get. We both want our kids to be happy and successful in life, and I know how hard my wife will push for them to go to college. I just hope the bubble bursts before then.

Sidenote, I read a brilliant reader-submitted comment on some news article I have since forgotten the subject of. It basically said we need to get colleges to be places of study and learning only. Get rid of the dorms, Greek system, anything that turns them in to their own enclosed society. Students should go to classes, then go home. (he said it more profoundly).

[lordxizor]

College can be a great investment in your future if you're going to get an education that can yield a reasonable paying career. It's no longer a viable thing for people to pay for to "find yourself" or just party for four years. I plan on encouraging my kids to go to a community college for the first year or two until they really decide what they want to do, then finish up at a bigger school.

[cramx3]

I don't think college is for everyone, but if you took away dorm life and all the things besides the education part, you miss out on a big part on learning about how to survive in this world on your own.  Not a fan of removing the "campus experience" I'll call it from college.  You already can do that by going to community college if you want, and I do think that's a great route to go especially if one isn't sure on what they want to study but their high school days are ending.  I don't think everyone at 18 knows how they want to spend the rest of their life. 

[Stadler]

Yeah.  I don't want to argue with people about something as subjective as this, and I respect people's experience, but I was ready, willing and able to send my stepdaughter off to college JUST FOR the experience of dorm life, etc.   I didn't even care if she finished, I just thought she needed to get out of her town so badly and experience life as it's lived elsewhere.

I think people are often unaware how different life can be in different parts of the country. 

[gmillerdrake]

I know for a fact that my oldest son (13) will not go the traditional college route. He has a few issues in learning right now that are pretty tough on him....and schoolwork is hard enough for teenagers, much less one with comprehension issues.

I truly think he will either do a trade school, he's talked of the Fire Department.....or even military service. It's going to be real 'work' for both he and his mother and I to figure out how to prepare him for life. He's a great kid, not 'dumb' by any means but he just has a pretty severe comprehension issue. He has an IEP in school so that his lessons are catered to him and even then it's a struggle.

The other two I'm sure could handle college. The big 'fight' right now in our house concerning college is my wife wants us to pay for it for the kids and I think they should get a loan...try for scholarships etc etc. I love my kids to the ends of space and time but I'm not in any condition financially to pay for their schooling.

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

[lordxizor]

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.

[gmillerdrake]

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.

The bold is my stance when my wife and I speak about it. I'm simply not willing to make that financial sacrifice. I'm sorry....maybe I'm a dickhead but I have ideas and plans as far as how I'd like to spend the last quarter of my life and it doesn't include paying off college for three kids. I love them dearly and will help them plan and determine 'what' to go to school for....look for scholarships... and so on....I'm just not willing to cripple us financially. 

We've been pretty fortunate with the amount of $$ that has been put into their accounts thus far between all the family members. They'll have a nice little chunk there but it's certainly not going to be enough to pay for a full (4) year college degree....I don't think. It'll take a nice divot out of whatever the cost is....but it's not a 'full ride'.

[Stadler]

I get the horror stories out there - and believe me, they exist - but having just gone through it, the horror stories don't explain all of it.  My kid does not have a free ride, but easily 50% is covered, and if she had made different choices, she could have had free college from either of two institutions (one you all know about, and have either watched their team or their football coach on TV in the last six months). 

The problem is it's not an easy process, and it's not a fast process.  But while I understand very well that my experience isn't gospel*, my experience is also that "financially crippling" isn't the only outcome from college. 

(Sorry Gary, I'm not commenting on YOU or your decision - it's your decision, and as you wrote it I don't fault you for it - I just felt like I should respond to that particular phrase.)

* And my kid is not the only data point.   

[eric42434224]

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.

Heck, between two daughters, I will have to pay 100k just for HIGH SCHOOL. 

[lordxizor]

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.

The bold is my stance when my wife and I speak about it. I'm simply not willing to make that financial sacrifice. I'm sorry....maybe I'm a dickhead but I have ideas and plans as far as how I'd like to spend the last quarter of my life and it doesn't include paying off college for three kids. I love them dearly and will help them plan and determine 'what' to go to school for....look for scholarships... and so on....I'm just not willing to cripple us financially. 

We've been pretty fortunate with the amount of $$ that has been put into their accounts thus far between all the family members. They'll have a nice little chunk there but it's certainly not going to be enough to pay for a full (4) year college degree....I don't think. It'll take a nice divot out of whatever the cost is....but it's not a 'full ride'.

You can take out loans for college, but no one is going to give you a retirement loan. Gotta make sure you're squared away before sacrificing too much for the kids.

[gmillerdrake]

You can take out loans for college, but no one is going to give you a retirement loan. Gotta make sure you're squared away before sacrificing too much for the kids.

Now there's a concept. You pay for your kids all their life....then pay for their college then when you turn 65 you can take out a retirement loan that 'they' are on the hook for 

[Chino]

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.

Heck, between two daughters, I will have to pay 100k just for HIGH SCHOOL.

This seems like madness to me. $100K per kid?

[Northern Lion]

Can I ask how old you are?

The reason I ask is because I work with a lot of guys in their 50s and early 60s who landed card punching jobs 35 years ago right out of college. Tech companies needed so many bodies, they'd hire anyone with a diploma who know how to turn on a computer. They evolved within the industry as it grew, learning it along the way. Those guys can move around pretty easily with the experience they have, but even those guys have gone out and gotten a lot of certifications, and many have gone back to school and gotten a degree pertaining to business of some kind. 

But for young people today who haven't even gone to college yet, they know nothing. I don't mean that in a demeaning way. But the guys I work with who didn't have schooling, learned it as the technology came to be over three decades. Even college graduates today don't "know" much, but they get prepped for that world in way that's not easy to do on your own convincingly. That college degree is a requirement 99.99% of the time for applicants for people that work where I work, regardless of position. I'm not trying to talk me up either or anything like that. My role (business systems analyst) is not where I was expecting to go with my degree, but the stuff I did in college prepared me for this role a ton.

I don't mind at all.  I'm 41.

I got into computers initially about 15 years ago when I thought it would be fun to learn how to build my own.  I didn't know the first thing so I did a search online until I found a website that guided me through the basics.  The rest is history really.  I got better at it the more I did it and now I wouldn't even think about buying a computer off the shelf.

I then learned about networks, all the ins and outs of windows and other microsoft products, then I delved into linux.

After a while, word got around at work that I knew my way around computers and they began asking me for help instead of going directly to IT. It was faster for them to ask me.

Over the next few years I made a name for myself doing that, especially since I didn't allow these extra duties to keep me from my regular work.  Then I began dabbiling in coding and databases, so when I decided to apply for an IT position I got snatched up pretty quickly.

I learned it all through reading on the internet and gaining experience.

That's my story in a nutshell.

Also, as a side note, I didn't mean to cause a stir over this.  If I had known there were such strong feelings about attending college I would have said things differently.

[millahh]

I'm gonna jump in regarding something I saw a few posts up...many undergrad science degrees don't pay shit.  Chem and bio degrees are good for doing QC lab work, and that's about it, and it doesn't pay well.  As of about five years ago, starting salary at a branded pharma company with a chem undergrad was about $48K...on Long Island!  Knock about a third off of that working in generic pharma.  And scale the cost of living by region.  Basically, if you have significant loans, you may very well be still living with your parents.  If the undergrad is a springboard to a PhD, that's another matter...but it's tough to make money or be impactful with just a chem/bio undergrad. 

Computer stuff and engineering is another matter, of course...

[Northern Lion]

Sidenote, I read a brilliant reader-submitted comment on some news article I have since forgotten the subject of. It basically said we need to get colleges to be places of study and learning only. Get rid of the dorms, Greek system, anything that turns them in to their own enclosed society. Students should go to classes, then go home. (he said it more profoundly).

That would be great if that could happen.  If that was the case I would probably encourage my children to go.  In my view, that's how trade/technical colleges largely still are.  And maybe that's why I like them more.  It's true you can't get advanced degrees there though, so it might be a drawback for some.

One thing I probably should mention, I do have a son who is very interested in robotics and would like to do that someday.  He will probably need to got to college for that, but I just don't want him to get into a mountain of debt doing it.

[eric42434224]

They each have savings accounts that $$$ gets put into from us, grandparents and great grandparents.....but, as I said....I'm not outright paying for it. If possible we will assist here and there but in my opinion that's their burden....not mine.

That's the boat we're in as well. I'm guessing I'll have $20k or so for each kid set aside by the time they get to college, which will maybe pay for half a semester by then. We'll help out as much as we can, but we're certainly not going to ruin ourselves financially to do so.

Heck, between two daughters, I will have to pay 100k just for HIGH SCHOOL.

This seems like madness to me. $100K per kid?

No, 50k per kid.  12k per year, plus some other fees.  2 kids, 100k total.

[Cool Chris]

I don't think college is for everyone, but if you took away dorm life and all the things besides the education part, you miss out on a big part on learning about how to survive in this world on your own.  Not a fan of removing the "campus experience" I'll call it from college.

My last word on the matter, but there is nothing about living in a dorm staffed with housekeepers, having all your means prepared and cleaned up afterward in the cafeteria, attending lectures on Gender Studies, and hitting up frat parties flooded with alcohol that is "learning about how to survive in this world on your own." I am not trying to imply it is all nefarious and depraved. But that should not be part of a state-funded path to a higher degree.

Getting a job waiting tables, and renting an apartment with some buddies and splitting the rent and bills for 6 months will teach more about living on your own in the real world.

[Chino]

Yeah.... My college dorm experience (and the general vibe of it all throughout campus) felt like 2000 people in a hotel. Keeping the kitchen sink empty and the bathroom semi-clean were the only real responsibilities.

[Stadler]

Eh, I don't discount that some experiences are like that, but not all.  If you grow up in a suburban town like any of 50 around me, it's an experience to encounter someone from... Turkey for example, or from Texas, or California, or Minnesota.

I often used music with my kids; when you're in high school, especially a public one, you know all those kids for years. It's like having 10 CDs, with 10 songs each, and you listen to them over and over.  And you don't have other CDs, so maybe you listen to the songs you like MOST, but maybe don't LOVE.  Then you go to college, and you have 1000 CDS with 10 songs each, and you can experience other genres, other artists, other songs, and you start to see that maybe you like other things.  And you start to listen to songs you really like as opposed to like more than the rest. (Then, of course, you graduate into the real world and it's Spotify/Apple Music, where any song of any genre by any artist is available to you.)

I also learned that people think differently - sometimes radically so - and people have different values - sometimes radically so.   You learn to interact and navigate with people that don't have 15 years of history with you.  Who take you at face value - or not.  You get a great perspective in how you and your ideas are perceived.  You learn that maybe you can drive that narrative a bit.  Maybe someone else doesn't have that experience, and that's fine, I respect it, but we've all had 15 years, plus minus of primary school, we're all going to work 40, 50 years after, why not have that other experience?  My best and closest friends are those I made in college. Ride or die friends. 

[Cool Chris]

You are 100% spot on with that post. Every 18-22 year old should experience that. They should wait tables, work at Burger King, volunteer with a charity, do hundreds of other things where they can experience the same without taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans to learn about 12th century Greek architecture.

My last word on this topic, v.2

[jingle.boy]

I'm a little late on the last bit of discussion.  @ Northern Lion... no need to apologize, this is good discussion.

I'm with Stads on a couple of his positions.  My belief is that University/College is as much about the education, as it is the experience.  And nowadays, the skills that EVERY employer is looking for are transferable skills - communication, problem solving, critical thinking, collaboration etc.... Those things are learned outside of the classroom as much as they are in the classroom.  Also, I started saving for jingle.kids the moment they were born - $50/mo for each... upped it to $100 then $200 as I could afford.  My goal is not to give them a completely free ride, but also not to have THEM come out of their post-secondary years crippled financially.

Trade schools... folks, good trades people can earn a shit-ton.  When I moved 20 years ago, the guy that owned the truck and crew was building his own 5000 sq foot custom house.  The guy that installed my floor was making 6-figures.  Plumbers... shit man (pun intended), they make good coin.  Supply/demand... not enough people are going in to trades, so once people have paid their dues (figuratively and literally) - at least here in Canada - there is a VERY good living to be made/had.  There is NOTHING wrong with trade schools.

Mrs.jingle and I have always let our kids determine their own path.  Jingle.son wants to be an animator; jingle.daughter a teacher.  We're both supporting them 100% in their pursuits.  Their personal and educational interests were determined by themselves - we pushed them into NOTHING.  We encouraged and experimented with a variety of different things (soccer, gymnastics, acting ...) but never forced anything they weren't interested in after trying.

[cramx3]

I don't think college is for everyone, but if you took away dorm life and all the things besides the education part, you miss out on a big part on learning about how to survive in this world on your own.  Not a fan of removing the "campus experience" I'll call it from college.

My last word on the matter, but there is nothing about living in a dorm staffed with housekeepers, having all your means prepared and cleaned up afterward in the cafeteria, attending lectures on Gender Studies, and hitting up frat parties flooded with alcohol that is "learning about how to survive in this world on your own." I am not trying to imply it is all nefarious and depraved. But that should not be part of a state-funded path to a higher degree.

Getting a job waiting tables, and renting an apartment with some buddies and splitting the rent and bills for 6 months will teach more about living on your own in the real world.

You are focusing on such a small fraction of college life.  You're neglecting meeting people who are different, managing money, managing your time, learning your limits, building lasting relationships, and having a sense of community.  Obviously not everyone has the same experience, positive or negative, but there's a lot to be learned when you go to college and are on your own that has nothing to do with the classroom. 

[Stadler]

You are 100% spot on with that post. Every 18-22 year old should experience that. They should wait tables, work at Burger King, volunteer with a charity, do hundreds of other things where they can experience the same without taking out hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans to learn about 12th century Greek architecture.

My last word on this topic, v.2

Respect, bro, but I've never sat at a Burger King with the staff discussing the meaning of life, or having someone confess the abuse they suffered as a kid, or discussing the role of religion in their life up to that point.  Or had a group have to make a decision where individual members had radically - sometimes diametrically opposed - moral positions.   I never had to face real, tangible, day-to-day anti-Semitism while asking the wait staff for a extra ketchup with my dinner.   Or - and don't laugh, it's a real thing - having to shit, shower and shave with the girl who serves meals at the United Way shelter.

You don't have to agree with me - you really don't, it's just my impression - but having done all those things you mentioned before and after college, FOR ME, I'm trying to articulate something different.  I learned more during my college education than at any other five-year period in my life (and I've already written about the "hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt).

[lordxizor]

Any of you married folks ever done any online videos or studies or anything to strengthen your marriage? My wife and I are trying to reinvigorate our marriage after realizing that we've sort of been taking each other for granted and not giving each other our best efforts over the last handful of years. Life is crazy with three kids, work and all that. We've had a few conversations and the last couple weeks have been great. We've made some big insights into ourselves and our marriage, but we want to keep the momentum going. We'd love to find some sort of online or even DVD based videos we can watch together that will prompt us to discuss things and grow together more. Any ideas?

[gmillerdrake]

Any of you married folks ever done any online videos or studies or anything to strengthen your marriage? My wife and I are trying to reinvigorate our marriage after realizing that we've sort of been taking each other for granted and not giving each other our best efforts over the last handful of years. Life is crazy with three kids, work and all that. We've had a few conversations and the last couple weeks have been great. We've made some big insights into ourselves and our marriage, but we want to keep the momentum going. We'd love to find some sort of online or even DVD based videos we can watch together that will prompt us to discuss things and grow together more. Any ideas?

No.....but I can can say that we’re kind of in the same boat. SO busy right now with the kiddos. Band practice, music lessons, hockey practice and games and so on....then throw in our jobs....more like roommates these days that see each other in crossing.

This is no massive revelation but communication is the key. We’ve noticed that anytime some angst or pissyness has popped up it’s because we haven’t really been talking. In those instances it’s amazing what a little one on one time and conversation can do to right the ship.

We both know that we’re both hyper focused and invested in the kids right now....we’ve taken a back seat to them so to speak. We’ve been working on how to fix this but it’s just tough. Thankfully we have a solid love for each other so we’ve been weathering the storm but as for me.....I know there’s more I could be doing as a husband probably to help stave off some of the little trivial stuff....I just haven’t been good at it lately.

But as for your OP....I hear ya with the desire to find a good resource and if you do please let me know.

[Stadler]

For us, it's priorities.  Sure the kids come first, and there are things that we cannot schedule or control. 

But there are other things, that if the two of you are being honest, can be reprioritized.  We have our ebbs and flows for sure (probably in an ebb right now if being honest) but we still try to have dinner together every night, even if it's holding our plates in front of the TV.  For us, shopping is a team sport.  I don't mean "mall shit", I mean, groceries and what not.  We might only be in the store for 20 minutes, but it's 20 minutes to be together. 

Honestly, for me, the best news is that you're aware of it and working on it.  I know couples that haven't been together that long and already are "ah, f*** it.  It'll work itself out."

[gmillerdrake]

Bill.....good point about the dinner. During the week our dinners are sit down at the kitchen table....no TV/devices. They’re only 20-30 minutes usually but we still make it a point to have family dinner.

[KevShmev]

I had lunch recently a few times with an old friend I had not seen in years (we were very close for many years for much of the 00's and early 10's), and she basically said, "Having kids ruins your marriage."  She got married in the late 00's, has two kids now, and said all her husband and her do now is fight.  Sounds like good times.

[lordxizor]

This is no massive revelation but communication is the key. 

This is totally true. We've had plenty of discussions over the years, but nothing really improved much afterwards. It's never been a lack of love or good intentions that has been our problems, just a lack of sincere effort. It was my frustration with our sex life (which honestly wasn't terrible, just not what I wanted it to be) that made me realize we needed to have a discussion that was more than "hey... I want more sex". Ironically, it was talking about sex (our wants and desires), and trying to do it a ton, in more exciting ways, over the course of the next 10 days or so, with the last time flaming out miserably, that made me realize that the reason we weren't having more sex was because we just weren't connecting like we use to. And more exciting sex alone wasn't the answer. My fantasy of a dream sex life just wasn't realistic.

Honestly, for me, the best news is that you're aware of it and working on it.  I know couples that haven't been together that long and already are "ah, f*** it.  It'll work itself out."

Yeah, I've been stuck between a desperate longing for how things were the first couple years and being anxious for the day the kids are grown and gone. We have 14 more years with kids in the house, as long as we've been married already, and it stupidly took me a while to realize that "It'll work itself out" was not a sufficient strategy to truly enjoy the next 14 years together.

"Having kids ruins your marriage." 

They can if you let them. Especially when they're young. It definitely takes more intentional effort to stay connected. For us, I often long for what we were like before kids came along. But 11 years later without kids we still wouldn't be what we were then. We still would have changed over time, grown more complacent, and would need to refresh our marriage from time to time. Blaming the kids is really just an excuse for ignoring your own failings as a couple.

[Northern Lion]

Any of you married folks ever done any online videos or studies or anything to strengthen your marriage? My wife and I are trying to reinvigorate our marriage after realizing that we've sort of been taking each other for granted and not giving each other our best efforts over the last handful of years. Life is crazy with three kids, work and all that. We've had a few conversations and the last couple weeks have been great. We've made some big insights into ourselves and our marriage, but we want to keep the momentum going. We'd love to find some sort of online or even DVD based videos we can watch together that will prompt us to discuss things and grow together more. Any ideas?

I've been married for 17 years, have 7 children and couldn't be happier. 

I take my wife out on a date as often as money and time allow. 

I never work more than 40 hours a week. 

My wife listens to Dr. Laura. 

I think the two of you are doing the right thing, it shows the both of you care about your success.  I also agree with Stadler about having dinner together and shopping together.  Time together is key especially when you have kids.
 
But, probably the most important piece of advice I could give is to be selfless.  If you have your wife's well being at heart and always work to make her happy and laugh and her life generally better and she tries to do the same for you, then very little can interfere to ruin that.

Best of luck to the both of you!

[Northern Lion]

SO busy right now with the kiddos. Band practice, music lessons, hockey practice and games and so on....then throw in our jobs....more like roommates these days that see each other in crossing.
 
We both know that we’re both hyper focused and invested in the kids right now....we’ve taken a back seat to them so to speak. We’ve been working on how to fix this but it’s just tough. Thankfully we have a solid love for each other so we’ve been weathering the storm but as for me.....I know there’s more I could be doing as a husband probably to help stave off some of the little trivial stuff....I just haven’t been good at it lately.

Allowing your kids to have experiences and to become well adjusted for life is certainly important.  But, just based on what you posted, you sound WAY too busy.  And, in my view, your relationship with your wife shouldn't take a back seat.

My advice, have your children involved in fewer things and use that money and time instead to take your wife out on dates.  It doesn't have to be extravagant.  Play board games together if money is tight, read a book together and talk about it.  Take turns choosing movies to rent.  Make a dessert together.  Take a walk together.  Also, try calling each other on your lunch breaks.  In general take more together time away from your children.

Your children will see the investment you're making in each other and they will thank you for it.  And they will learn more from that than any extra curricular activities.

And this isn't meant to be a criticism of your choices, I'm just trying to be helpful.

P/S my wife helped me write this post 

[Cool Chris]

My wife listens to Dr. Laura. 

Mother of God she is still on?

[TAC]

Who is Dr. Laura?

[Northern Lion]

My wife listens to Dr. Laura. 

Mother of God she is still on?

lol! Believe it or not, yes.  She has a podcast and she's on Sirius/XM.