Pantera

[nick_z]

Speaking of Pantera live...

Here's a video of their performance at the Monsters of Rock '92, in Italy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-lMfmlPXSA

This is from the "Italian MTV" (it was called Videomusic). They recorded pretty much the whole thing and then broadcast it all. I remember taping it - I must still have the VHS at my dad's apartment, back in the homeland  The line-up included Pantera, Testament, Megadeth, Dio-fronted Sabbath and Maiden headlining. (I'm pretty sure the other performances are on YT too). Awesome stuff.

Pantera were fresh off releasing Vulgar, and they had such amazing energy on stage. The broadcast unfortunately cut off F'ing Hostile (you can hear the very end of it at the beginning of the video, with Anselmo's scream), but the rest is there and it's great.

[twosuitsluke]

Speaking of Pantera live...

Here's a video of their performance at the Monsters of Rock '92, in Italy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-lMfmlPXSA

This is from the "Italian MTV" (it was called Videomusic). They recorded pretty much the whole thing and then broadcast it all. I remember taping it - I must still have the VHS at my dad's apartment, back in the homeland  The line-up included Pantera, Testament, Megadeth, Dio-fronted Sabbath and Maiden headlining. (I'm pretty sure the other performances are on YT too). Awesome stuff.

Pantera were fresh off releasing Vulgar, and they had such amazing energy on stage. The broadcast unfortunately cut off F'ing Hostile (you can hear the very end of it at the beginning of the video, with Anselmo's scream), but the rest is there and it's great.

God, if I had the chance to see Pantera in '92, I would pay ridiculous amounts! I watched Mouth for War but I'll have to watch the rest later.

[MinistroRaven]

Check this set:

https://z2comics.com/products/pantera-a-vulgar-display-of-power?_pos=1&_sid=4e017e267&_ss=r

[cfmoran13]

HALFTERA!

I'll start out by saying I'll definitely see this when it hits the NJ/NY area.  But, it's not Pantera and it's not a reunion.  Phil and Rex have played live together with Down in the past and there are no Abbott brothers.  This is Sammy and Mikey doing Van Halen with The Circle.  I'll admit they got probably the 2 best choices they could for substitutes.  But, it'll never touch the real thing.

I was fortunate enough to see them 5 times back in the day.  I got to see them slay when they opened for Skid Row supporting Vulgar.  And, I got to see a doped-up and ranting Phil touring on the last album.  This will most likely be somewhere in the middle.  Zakk will do a good enough job pulling off Dime's parts and Charlie is awesome.  I haven't heard Phil live in a while.  So, I'm curious to hear what he sounds like these days.  Say what you want about this band, they're gonna headline every rock and metal festival in the US and probably Europe next year.  They've already been announced as the headliner for Mexico's "Heaven and Hell Metal Fest".  So, yeah, they're gonna make a ton of money.  I'm just surprised we haven't heard anything from Rita yet.

[Samsara]

I never got to see Pantera. I just didn't go to enough concerts in the 90s other than Queensryche and Dream Theater. And when they got back for their last record, I was in law school and couldn't afford to go. By the time I was ready, they were done, and Dime was gone.

So I am absolutely going to see this. They can call it Pantera - we all know it isn't. BUT, IF (and it is a big IF) Phil can get his voice in good enough shape to at least give the Cowboys and Vulgar stuff the good performance it deserves, I'll be happy. I have ZERO doubt that musically it will be PERFECT with Zakk and Charlie involved and Rex holding it down as normal. The wildcard is Phil. If he does what he has been doing, the material that I want to see probably won't be sung well. But regardless, I'll be there. To me, it'll be a nice way to honor Dime and Vinnie.

But if they continue under the Pantera name and make this a formal band again and not just a tour, I'll be done. This, IMO, should just be a tour to send Pantera off the way the band should have been, and to honor Vin and Dime. If it is more than that, I'll see my show and call it a day.

[Grappler]

I never got to see Pantera. I just didn't go to enough concerts in the 90s other than Queensryche and Dream Theater. And when they got back for their last record, I was in law school and couldn't afford to go. By the time I was ready, they were done, and Dime was gone.

So I am absolutely going to see this. They can call it Pantera - we all know it isn't. BUT, IF (and it is a big IF) Phil can get his voice in good enough shape to at least give the Cowboys and Vulgar stuff the good performance it deserves, I'll be happy. I have ZERO doubt that musically it will be PERFECT with Zakk and Charlie involved and Rex holding it down as normal. The wildcard is Phil. If he does what he has been doing, the material that I want to see probably won't be sung well. But regardless, I'll be there. To me, it'll be a nice way to honor Dime and Vinnie.

But if they continue under the Pantera name and make this a formal band again and not just a tour, I'll be done. This, IMO, should just be a tour to send Pantera off the way the band should have been, and to honor Vin and Dime. If it is more than that, I'll see my show and call it a day.

Charlie and Zakk have both issued small "statements" clarifying that this is a tribute and celebration,. and not a reunion.

As for Phil - even back in the 90's, he was hit or miss.  He was in the throes of his addictions and was never going to sing Cemetery Gates perfectly, like the studio record.  The live album even confirms that, back in 1997.  The sheer ferocity of the live shows is what that propelled them forward. 

I think they'll be able to match that, and I wasn't sure about it last week when it was announced.  I was listening to A New Level and the drumming in that song really reminded me of Charlie's drumming on Nobody Knows Anything from We've Come For You All.   They both have the chops to honor Dime and Vinnie and Phil will just be Phil.  Maybe he'll be amazing, maybe he won't, but that isn't anything new for him. 

[Dublagent66]

Some folks on FB are calling this a disgraceful money grab.   I don't see anything wrong with doing a tribute celebration because that's all it is.  I'm pretty sure Zakk wouldn't be doing this if he thought it would be disrespectful and selfish.  Besides, I don't know who could play Dime's parts better than Zakk.

[Stadler]

Maybe it's because I'm not a Pantera fan (though I'm a fan of Kiss with Tommy and Eric, so...) but I always sort of chuckle at the responses to this stuff.  So what if it was a money grab?  There are worse things; it's a BAND for gosh sakes.   "It's not Black Sabbath without Bill Ward!" or "It's not Van Halen without Michael Anthony!"  Guess what; it was.  If you don't like that music, fair enough, but that's not the same thing.  I'm a Zakk fan, he's a great guitar player, so I have no doubt he can play the Dime parts; and he does seem to have a sense of history and "place", so there's that, but it's not for anyone to say whether this is the real deal or a 'tribute', those are just labels.  The concerts are NOT going to be free, are they?  So what's the difference?

[cramx3]

Maybe it's because I'm not a Pantera fan (though I'm a fan of Kiss with Tommy and Eric, so...) but I always sort of chuckle at the responses to this stuff.  So what if it was a money grab?  There are worse things; it's a BAND for gosh sakes.   "It's not Black Sabbath without Bill Ward!" or "It's not Van Halen without Michael Anthony!"  Guess what; it was.  If you don't like that music, fair enough, but that's not the same thing.  I'm a Zakk fan, he's a great guitar player, so I have no doubt he can play the Dime parts; and he does seem to have a sense of history and "place", so there's that, but it's not for anyone to say whether this is the real deal or a 'tribute', those are just labels.  The concerts are NOT going to be free, are they?  So what's the difference?

I agree.  People take these things too personally sometimes. 

[cfmoran13]

I agree.  People take these things too personally sometimes.

I agree sometimes people can take things too personally.  However, it all depends upon a person's context.  Someone who grew up with that band and loved that band and poured their blood, sweat and tears for the band may certainly have a more personal connection than someone who is a casual fan or maybe just discovered the band.  Half the band -  arguably the two most important members - are dead.  The two left - the bassist and the loudmouth singer - have decided to go out on the road with 2 other musicians and call it Pantera. 

I think the main problem was the way this was presented to the public.  It was a generic press release hyping the return of Pantera.  They didn't announce right away who was joining Phil and Rex.  There would've been way less backlash, maybe even none, if they had elaborated more on having this be a celebration of Vinnie and Dime and Pantera as opposed to straight-up calling it Pantera.  There was no mention of Rita or if she was involved in this at all.  Calling it Pantera 1,000 times in the release could certainly leave a bad taste in someone's mouth.  Especially if Pantera was the gateway band for someone discovering music.  Look at how many KISS fans can't get over Tommy and Eric being in Peter and Ace's makeup.  And, it's been 15 frickin' years!  But, I'm sure Zakk's interview over the weekend did a lot to talk some people off the ledge.

It should be pretty cool.  It's gonna do really well.  It's not Pantera.  I can't wait.

[Stadler]

I agree.  People take these things too personally sometimes.

I agree sometimes people can take things too personally.  However, it all depends upon a person's context.  Someone who grew up with that band and loved that band and poured their blood, sweat and tears for the band may certainly have a more personal connection than someone who is a casual fan or maybe just discovered the band.  Half the band -  arguably the two most important members - are dead.  The two left - the bassist and the loudmouth singer - have decided to go out on the road with 2 other musicians and call it Pantera. 

I think the main problem was the way this was presented to the public.  It was a generic press release hyping the return of Pantera.  They didn't announce right away who was joining Phil and Rex.  There would've been way less backlash, maybe even none, if they had elaborated more on having this be a celebration of Vinnie and Dime and Pantera as opposed to straight-up calling it Pantera.  There was no mention of Rita or if she was involved in this at all.  Calling it Pantera 1,000 times in the release could certainly leave a bad taste in someone's mouth.  Especially if Pantera was the gateway band for someone discovering music.  Look at how many KISS fans can't get over Tommy and Eric being in Peter and Ace's makeup.  And, it's been 15 frickin' years!  But, I'm sure Zakk's interview over the weekend did a lot to talk some people off the ledge.

It should be pretty cool.  It's gonna do really well.  It's not Pantera.  I can't wait.

Well, that's sort of why I referenced Kiss in my original post.  I don't get that either.  I'm a Kiss fan from 1977 or thereabouts (Kiss Alive II was one of the first records I ever bought with my own money; might  be the first, I don't remember).   I'm invested in them, still; I saw like four or five reunion shows with the original members, and I've been lucky enough to meet both Gene and Paul twice each (wonderful, wonderful men in my experience).  But I'm realistic about things.  I read the four autobiographies; they are not the same.   I saw Kiss on Peter's last tour and there was nothing magical about it.  He sucked hard. 

I will agree with you on one point:  context DOES matter.  Gene and Paul haven't pulled any wool over anyone's eyes, nor have they backed away from the issue.  It is what it is, and we get to vote with our dollars.  All I know is Kiss filled the Meadows Music Theater in May of this year (capacity 6,500 in the shed, another 22,000 on the lawn; I don't know how many actually attended for the show) and Ace barely put 400 people into Toad's Place, a 750 capacity club about a month ago.  So the votes are in, so to speak. I get the controversy around Anselmo, and I'm not a fan (has nothing to do with the racism shit, I just don't think he's all that talented)  but if you ARE a Phil guy, this is a dream come true in some senses; I don't think that's for me to say whether this is legit or not.

And I don't know who "Rita" is or why she's important; I'm guessing one of the widows, and that's fair, but again, only to a point.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

The thing is, even though Phil was the vocalist on the most iconic material, most Pantera fans I've talked to are first and foremost Dimebag fans.  He's probably the most important metal guitarist of the 90s, bleeding well into the 00s.  And even the people who considered themselves Phil fans I would imagine have dwindled over the years.  The botched initial marketing hasn't helped matters.  And no matter how many interviews they do calling it a "tribute", it seems inevitable that future marketing is going to muck it up and make a lot of people assume it actually is a reunion, for better or for worse. 

[Dublagent66]

Well, Dime was Pantera.  Therefore, Pantera died with Dime.

[Deathless]

I've spent some time listening to Pantera since this news came out (I was pretty young when they were at their peak then broke up). I don't know if it's the production style but I really haven't been impressed. Of course some of the hits are good but overall I thought I would enjoy them more. I'll keep listening.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

I think Dime is an incredible riff writer and soloist, but I always hated his tone.  His insistence on solid state amps and heavily scooped mids for me had a really deleterious affect on guitar tones for awhile.  I think 90% of kids back then in Guitar Center cranking Boss MT-2 Metal Zones were being inspired by it.  It's just this harsh sledgehammer of a tone that's abrasive and fatiguing.  It's tolerable on songs like "Cemetery Gates" because the solos are just drenched in reverb and delay, which counteracts the piercing sound of it.  But I'd have preferred if people were instead trying to ape Fear Factory's on Demanufacture.  Just as heavy and hard-hitting, but far more pleasant to listen to. 

[Grappler]

I've spent some time listening to Pantera since this news came out (I was pretty young when they were at their peak then broke up). I don't know if it's the production style but I really haven't been impressed. Of course some of the hits are good but overall I thought I would enjoy them more. I'll keep listening.

Part of the Pantera experience involves putting yourself in the 1990's.  Hair bands and heavy metal were on the way out.  Metallica and Megadeth both started writing more accessible music, Maiden was in the Blaze era and declining in popularity.  Metal was changing.  Very few metal bands were getting heavier during those years.  Nu metal was becoming a thing, groove was in. 

Then there was Pantera, who did get heavier and they renounced the newer trends in music.  Vulgar was heavier than CFH.  Far Beyond Driven was way heavier than Vulgar and debuted at #1 on the Billboard chart.  Trendkill was much more aggressive than FBD.  They flew the flag for heavy metal and became huge, filling some voids where bands like Metallica, Megadeth and Maiden were back in the 80's and early 90's.  And they were on a mission to just bludgeon everyone.

When I listen to Pantera, those are the times I remember, and their music makes a bit more sense when you put it in the context of that era.  Without Pantera in the 90's, you wouldn't have bands like Lamb of God or Five Finger Death punch today. 

[Stadler]

I'm reading all this and I'm trying to be respectful, both to the players and to the fans, but as someone that was NOT immersed in that thrash, groove metal, heavy metal scene, I have to say... my first impression is it's an overstatement to say he was the most influential metal guitar player of the 90's.  Lamb of God and Five Finger Death Punch are popular, well-known bands, but they aren't TRANSCENDENT bands. Korn has sold a lot of records - five platinum records I think - but again it doesn't strike me as transcendent in the way, say, Metallica is.

He might have been a great guy, he might have been an excellent player, he might have advanced the art significantly, and he should get props for all that.

[wolfking]

As a kid, Pantera were one of the first metal bands I got into, the sound was something else.  Dime obviously had a big part of that.  I think he deserves the accolades he gets and to me he was the sound of Pantera.  Dude could play, no question.  I was also into Korn and Tool so Dime seemed a cut above the rest.

Then I discovered Iron Maiden and went down a different path.  I still listen to Pantera frequently enough.  Dime's soloing in the title track of the Great Southern Trendkill gets me every time.

[Elite]

I think Dime is an incredible riff writer and soloist, but I always hated his tone.  His insistence on solid state amps and heavily scooped mids for me had a really deleterious affect on guitar tones for awhile.  I think 90% of kids back then in Guitar Center cranking Boss MT-2 Metal Zones were being inspired by it.  It's just this harsh sledgehammer of a tone that's abrasive and fatiguing.  It's tolerable on songs like "Cemetery Gates" because the solos are just drenched in reverb and delay, which counteracts the piercing sound of it.

This is so relatable

[cfmoran13]

And I don't know who "Rita" is or why she's important; I'm guessing one of the widows, and that's fair, but again, only to a point.

Yeah, Rita is Dime's wife.
Another problem people have with this is that, if Vinnie were still alive, this probably never happens.  (Never say "never".).  Vinnie, in large part, blamed Phil with Dime's death and hadn't spoken with him since Dime died.  Some deep seated hatred there.  Not "you screwed me out of millions" hatred but, "my brother's dead because of you" hatred.  Now that Vinnie's gone, too, Phil and Rex are relatively free to do what they want.

I loved Pantera.  I got to see them on the Vulgar tour, opening for Skid Row.  And, to see dozens of metal folding chairs go flying into the air when they broke into "Fucking Hostile" was a sight to be seen.  Their shows were amazing.  Before Phil started performing all fucked up every night.  Then, it was 3/4 fire, 1/4 mess.

[Stadler]

And I don't know who "Rita" is or why she's important; I'm guessing one of the widows, and that's fair, but again, only to a point.

Yeah, Rita is Dime's wife.
Another problem people have with this is that, if Vinnie were still alive, this probably never happens.  (Never say "never".).  Vinnie, in large part, blamed Phil with Dime's death and hadn't spoken with him since Dime died.  Some deep seated hatred there.  Not "you screwed me out of millions" hatred but, "my brother's dead because of you" hatred.  Now that Vinnie's gone, too, Phil and Rex are relatively free to do what they want.

I loved Pantera.  I got to see them on the Vulgar tour, opening for Skid Row.  And, to see dozens of metal folding chairs go flying into the air when they broke into "Fucking Hostile" was a sight to be seen.  Their shows were amazing.  Before Phil started performing all fucked up every night.  Then, it was 3/4 fire, 1/4 mess.

I read something along those lines, but I thought it was Dime's girlfriend/partner (I'm assuming that's the aforementioned Rita).

[Grappler]

I read something along those lines, but I thought it was Dime's girlfriend/partner (I'm assuming that's the aforementioned Rita).

They both did - Rita was Dime's common-law wife.  During the war of words in the press after Pantera broke up, Phil made some crack about Dimebag needing to be severely beaten.  Lo-and-behold, Dime is murdered on stage sometime later.  Rita and Phil eventually patched things up, but Vinnie never forgave him. 

[Bluefish]

HALFTERA!

I'll start out by saying I'll definitely see this when it hits the NJ/NY area.  But, it's not Pantera and it's not a reunion.  Phil and Rex have played live together with Down in the past and there are no Abbott brothers.  This is Sammy and Mikey doing Van Halen with The Circle.  I'll admit they got probably the 2 best choices they could for substitutes.  But, it'll never touch the real thing.

I couldn't have said it better myself.  I expect it to be good, but it feels weird that they're calling it Pantera, especially since they were estranged for some time after their last album.  Vinnie even partly blamed Phil for Dimebag's death (which I think was unfair).  I hoped for a reunion until Dime's murder.  After that it seemed pointless to me.

[Ben_Jamin]

I would still go see a show just to get to hear Pantera songs, even if it is just Rex and Phil. If Phil is able to hit that high note at the end of Cemetery Gates, that would be awesome, especially since that song will be the epicenter of the entire set and the main tribute song. Zakk is actually the only guitarist I could actually think of that could do Dimebag's Riffing justice.

I will say though, I know it won't be the same as it used to be with Dime and Vinnie. Dime not only played some good guitar, his entire persona and identity was brought through his guitar playing, which was revealed when they would play live. That's what I liked about Dime as a guitar player.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

If Phil is able to hit that high note at the end of Cemetery Gates, that would be awesome, especially since that song will be the epicenter of the entire set and the main tribute song.

I think that's highly unlikely.  He wasn't even doing that live past the early 90s.  It's hard to imagine he's somehow gotten his voice into better shape than what he couldn't even do 30 years ago now. 

[wolfking]

Yeah, he's never hit it outside the studio so not sure why he would be able to now.

[LithoJazzoSphere]

There are a couple live videos where he does it, like this one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0Wt6rxBFlY

But he didn't always do it, and not at all after the early 90s that I'm aware of. 

[porcacultor]

So apparently the first Pantera Tribute date I know of, all but confirmed (by a music journalist who pretty much NEVER gets things wrong as far as announcing concerts and lineups), will be at Knotfest in São Paulo, Brazil, on December 18 (possibly in Knotfest Chile the week prior as well, I'm not sure).

It's interesting. I have a bunch of friends who are pretty disappointed in this decision, and twitter users are enraged. Another band (Armored Dawn) got previously removed from the Knotfest lineup because some of the members own a health insurance company implicated in serious scandals in Brazil involving the government's efforts (or lack thereof) to fight the COVID-19 pandemic. Wonder if the outrage will be comparable this time around.

[Lonk]

I don't think it will get to that point. I do find it strange that they will start the tribute tour on a festival.

[Grappler]

I don't think it will get to that point. I do find it strange that they will start the tribute tour on a festival.

Charlie recently said that it's going to be select appearances (i.e. festivals) and that it's likely that they aren't going to do a whole tour.  The Pantera schedule won't affect what Anthrax has planned. 

I think that's more in line with the messaging that this is a celebration of Pantera, rather than a reunion.  If it gets enough traction and support, maybe they'll be interested in expanding on it. 

[Deathless]

^ They talked about doing festival appearances so that makes sense. I assume they'll hit South America, the U.S and then Europe for the string of large festivals there.

[Lonk]

That makes sense, thanks for clarifying

[Phoenix87x]

Listening to A vulgar display of power

Man, this album rips 

[wolfking]

Yes it most certainly does.

The riffing in Regular People is some of the most underrated shit ever!

[nick_z]

The riffing in Regular People is some of the most underrated shit ever!

Many time yes to this! I absolutely LOVE that song. That main riff is incredible.