20th Anniversary of Falling Into Infinity coming up...

[Tony From Long Island]

I should also point out that 2017 is the 1st anniversary of The Astonishing. They should probably play it in full.

I'd reply with something slick, but I don't want to get warned again for saying something rude about TA.

How about just - I think we've had enough of that.   I'd bet they have also

[Dublagent66]

DoubleAgent:   " . . . . .AL is no classic, but it's a DT classic. . . . . "


I guess you and I define the word "classic" differently.    If we had everyone on here rank every DT album song from 1 to whatever, Anna Lee would surely end up in the bottom 10% of most lists.

Yes, some people would go nuts - if only because it's rarely played.

Thankfully DT's catalog is so deep that even the bottom 10% are mostly great songs!  But it's not a DT classic.

Yeah, we do define classics differently.  So be it.

[gzarruk]

Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).

Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)

[MirrorMask]

I personally love all of DT's "pop" songs, and I Walk Beside You is one of my very favorites of that kind. I actually wouldn't mind if they'd play it in the upcoming tour!

[mikeyd23]

The performance of I Walk Beside You on Score sold me on the song. I definitely appreciate the album version more now.

[Samsara]

Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).

Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)

I don't find Anna Lee to be mainstream -- just simpler. To me, there's a difference. I think I Walk Beside You is very radio friendly and mainstream for sure. But they have a bunch of those mainstream-pointed tunes. Anna Lee though...not really mainstream to my ears.

[gzarruk]

Anna Lee is not even close to my favorite DT songs, but I really like the guitar solo section, where JP plays a great melody. It was probably written by Derek, since he revisited that melody on one of his solo songs "Been Here Before"

- Derek's solo album version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-qZ6YsrOh8)

- PSMS version (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gjuDRco0AI)


On IWBY, the song is good, it just doesn't sound at all like DT, it sounds like a U2 or Coldplay song with JLB singing on it an better instrumentation. Not that it is bad, I just don't find it too interesting. I don't like Never Enough either, and that's one of the reasons I rank 8V so low on my list, it just lacks something  (again, my opinion, please don't take it serious, guys  )

[Tony From Long Island]

Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).

Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)

Are you saying you don't care for the song BECAUSE it's too pop?     

[gzarruk]

Even though FII is considered to be the "mainstream" album, I think their most mainstream song isn't Anna Lee or the others mentioned here, it's I Walk Beside You. I just can't find any interesting on it, besides the fact that it's DT playing it and a few musical elements like Portnoy's second verse drum part and JP's intro (that sound that plays with along the clock at the beginning).

Anyone share this opinion? (without going too far from the topic of this thread)

Are you saying you don't care for the song BECAUSE it's too pop?     

Not saying that, I just don't find it too interesting, even the modulation at the end feels weird and it's oddly placed on the album. The song is well written and performed, I just don't picture DT sounding like U2.

This is coming from a fan who LOVES The Astonishing, so I have no problem listening to songs that arent TDOE 

[Madman Shepherd]

I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.

Good sleuthing there.  It is interesting that no other member has ever spoken ill of that album. 

Also, that was the era where their management team split up and they had to choose who to go with out of the two guys.  Mike was "shot down again" by a vote of 3-2.  So from everything you dug up from Lifting Shadows goes along with that is a pretty good indicator that it was probably James that sided with Mike. 

Also TAC, I can't remember where but I swear I read that Mike and James were actually best friends for a while and I'm pretty sure it was during that era.  I may need to reread the section where he was asked to shape up vocally because I think Mike may have made a comment about them being close at one point.

Just glanced at the chapter about when they considered replacing James and James said that he and Mike were very close after he first joined the band in 92.  So confirmation they were close but not sure about where they stood during the making of FII

[gzarruk]

I also think you're right about James siding with MP: JMX doesn't strike me as the kind of person who wants to rock the boat, and Derek had already played more mainstream-oriented music and was the newbie anyway. I just re-read the FII chapters in the book, and James is the only one who doesn't praise Shirley in there, and he's pretty outspoken about the negativity surrounding the tour, though not to the same extent as Mike. They even watched Pantera and Slayer together, and I vaguely remember an ADTOE-era interview where James was asked to name his least favorite album and he said FII.

Good sleuthing there.  It is interesting that no other member has ever spoken ill of that album. 

Also, that was the era where their management team split up and they had to choose who to go with out of the two guys.  Mike was "shot down again" by a vote of 3-2.  So from everything you dug up from Lifting Shadows goes along with that is a pretty good indicator that it was probably James that sided with Mike. 

Also TAC, I can't remember where but I swear I read that Mike and James were actually best friends for a while and I'm pretty sure it was during that era.  I may need to reread the section where he was asked to shape up vocally because I think Mike may have made a comment about them being close at one point.

Just glanced at the chapter about when they considered replacing James and James said that he and Mike were very close after he first joined the band in 92.  So confirmation they were close but not sure about where they stood during the making of FII

I haven't read the LS book, could you please tell me when they considered to replace James? From what I've heard, MP wanted to kick James out of the band around the BC&SL tour, when they were probably having more issues with each other. I think that, if Mike stayed, he would've eventually tried to replace James and go to an even heavier direction

[MirrorMask]

I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.

[Madman Shepherd]

I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.

Yup.  Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time.  James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it. 

For a little more detail, after the SDOIT tour Mike was not happy with James and wanted to replace him.  It appears in the book that the other members and management were not as keen to replace him.  Mike had some strong statements, John Myung said nothing, Jordan said he was too new to take an opinion, and John Petrucci had some very tempered statements about James.  In other words, I got the sense that JP had some concerns about James but never really thought seriously about replacing him.  In the book he pretty much said that James didn't seem happy in the band and was wondering if he was still into it. 

Mike on the other hand said he was unhappy with James's stage presence, his interaction with the audience, his weight, his vocal performance (he had trouble consistently hitting the high notes around that period but wasn't that bad overall), and I really got the notion that Mike was ready to replace him but the other guys were not.  So I think ultimatum is a strong word but they did tell him they want to see an improvement in his performance.  James took it to heart and admitted that he hadn't been a good place, was depressed from his vocal chord accident in the 90s, and was ready to improve.  He started taking lessons again, started working out, stopped drinking on tour (he was never a heavy drinker anyway but alcohol isn't good for the voice), stopped smoking cigars ( I was shocked when I read that he smoked), and you can see a big improvement between the 2002 tours and the 2004 tours. 

[Cool Chris]

John Myung said nothing

 

[Madman Shepherd]

John Myung said nothing

 

 

Yeah, yeah, yeah...but John really does say some interesting stuff in the book.  I just thought it was interesting there was no quote from him about that ordeal.  Did he refuse to talk about it?  I'm sure he was asked.  Did he not say anything quote worthy?

[gzarruk]

I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.

Yup.  Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time.  James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it. 

For a little more detail, after the SDOIT tour Mike was not happy with James and wanted to replace him.  It appears in the book that the other members and management were not as keen to replace him.  Mike had some strong statements, John Myung said nothing, Jordan said he was too new to take an opinion, and John Petrucci had some very tempered statements about James.  In other words, I got the sense that JP had some concerns about James but never really thought seriously about replacing him.  In the book he pretty much said that James didn't seem happy in the band and was wondering if he was still into it. 

Mike on the other hand said he was unhappy with James's stage presence, his interaction with the audience, his weight, his vocal performance (he had trouble consistently hitting the high notes around that period but wasn't that bad overall), and I really got the notion that Mike was ready to replace him but the other guys were not.  So I think ultimatum is a strong word but they did tell him they want to see an improvement in his performance.  James took it to heart and admitted that he hadn't been a good place, was depressed from his vocal chord accident in the 90s, and was ready to improve.  He started taking lessons again, started working out, stopped drinking on tour (he was never a heavy drinker anyway but alcohol isn't good for the voice), stopped smoking cigars ( I was shocked when I read that he smoked), and you can see a big improvement between the 2002 tours and the 2004 tours.

Wow, I didn't know all that. It makes me wonder who they would've chosen if they fired James. That's another example on MP not having as much control on things as he makes it sound every time he talks about it.

About the Black Clouds era, I was talking about the same thing you mentioned, MP saying they wouldn't have chosen James at that point, he probably felt too bad about it and started working on another solo album (Static Impulse). I actually remember an interview with James (after Portnoy left) where he said he felt frustrated his input wasn't being appreciated or his ideas used, so he started working on that album to get some of his musical ideas out. It actually makes sense if you see that he didn't get to write any lyrics on BC&SL, and on the making of SC documental, he only appears a few times to be yelled at or something 

That has clearly changed nowadays. He was the initial contact with Rich Chycki, for example.

[Madman Shepherd]

I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.

Yup.  Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time.  James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it. 

For a little more detail, after the SDOIT tour Mike was not happy with James and wanted to replace him.  It appears in the book that the other members and management were not as keen to replace him.  Mike had some strong statements, John Myung said nothing, Jordan said he was too new to take an opinion, and John Petrucci had some very tempered statements about James.  In other words, I got the sense that JP had some concerns about James but never really thought seriously about replacing him.  In the book he pretty much said that James didn't seem happy in the band and was wondering if he was still into it. 

Mike on the other hand said he was unhappy with James's stage presence, his interaction with the audience, his weight, his vocal performance (he had trouble consistently hitting the high notes around that period but wasn't that bad overall), and I really got the notion that Mike was ready to replace him but the other guys were not.  So I think ultimatum is a strong word but they did tell him they want to see an improvement in his performance.  James took it to heart and admitted that he hadn't been a good place, was depressed from his vocal chord accident in the 90s, and was ready to improve.  He started taking lessons again, started working out, stopped drinking on tour (he was never a heavy drinker anyway but alcohol isn't good for the voice), stopped smoking cigars ( I was shocked when I read that he smoked), and you can see a big improvement between the 2002 tours and the 2004 tours.

Wow, I didn't know all that. It makes me wonder who they would've chosen if they fired James. That's another example on MP not having as much control on things as he makes it sound every time he talks about it.

It appears Mike did have complete control over album titles, covers, setlists, and special unique performances (Score, cover songs, etc) but in the studio I think he definitely had less control than he made it out to be.  I think JP musically had the most control and was clearly the leader. 

[gzarruk]

It appears Mike did have complete control over album titles, covers, setlists, and special unique performances (Score, cover songs, etc) but in the studio I think he definitely had less control than he made it out to be.  I think JP musically had the most control and was clearly the leader.

I agree 100% on that. Don't tell Portnoy that, though, he won't agree with you 

[Zook]

I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.

Yup.  Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time.  James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it. 

I believe this was only Mike's opinion since he was really into the harsher vocals at the time.

[Madman Shepherd]

I didn't read the book but I thought the general consensus was that James was given a kinda of ultimatum after the Six Degrees tour, he improved and mantained his role in the band. I never heard even rumors of him being at risk around Black Clouds.

Yup.  Nothing like that occurred around BC&SL although sometime around that timeframe or maybe a few years earlier Mike had said online that they would not have picked James if they needed a new vocalist at that time.  James was quiet about it publicly but I think its pretty clear he was hurt/pissed off by it. 

I believe this was only Mike's opinion since he was really into the harsher vocals at the time.

Yeah, I don't see the others really having a problem with James's voice.  Maybe they're just quiet about it but I doubt it.  It really seemed like, at least from their quotes in the book, they weren't on board with switching vocalists even if there were a few things about James they weren't happy with at the time. 

[MirrorMask]

I'm 150% happy James stayed, but if that had happened, his tenure would have been 10-11 years and 5 albums. The following singer, who would have taken over in 2003, would now have 13 years of tenure and 7 albums.

Of course numbers don't mean anything (take for example the 6 years, 4 albums run of Kiske in Helloween, 20 years later he is still missed and the reunion tour will sell out like bread), and James would have always been the classic singer, but at this point in time it would have all been water under the bridge.

Still, as I said, I'm very happy nothing changed.

[thosava]

Yeah i wouldn't want DT with any other singer. He may have some off-days live, but the most important thing is always studio albums. And James always sounds amazing in the studio, among the best in the world in my opinion!

[Samsara]

Circling this back to Falling into Infinity, do you think, given where James' voice was 20 years ago, and where it is now, that if they performed some of these songs on upcoming tour legs, he'd change how he sings them?

[Tony From Long Island]

JL is not the greatest singer in the history of mankind, but he should be the singer in DT until he physically can not. 

I'm usually a big defender of Mike P, but  I don't really agree with most of the criticisms attributed to him here.

[Tony From Long Island]

Circling this back to Falling into Infinity, do you think, given where James' voice was 20 years ago, and where it is now, that if they performed some of these songs on upcoming tour legs, he'd change how he sings them?

Maybe just be more careful during "Burning My Soul."   I know when I try to add some rasp to my voice (which, like James, does not have a natural rasp), I am headed for a short night and an unpleasant tomorrow.