Dave Chappelle

[Ben_Jamin]

Do we just do politics anywhere now, since the mods don't seem to have looked at the PR Access Request thread in over a month?

Not sure I consider this a political discussion per se.  Even though I do not post in P/R anymore (my rights to post there were removed at my own request), this is not me trying to skirt it and get chatter about politics in GD.

These discussions are getting tired.  Not here at DTF, I mean in the real world.  It just seems as if they always settle to the same two poles, and nothing gets resolved.  There's no insight, there's no growth, there's no revelation.   I read this and the woman tries to give him the benefit of the doubt, then settles into the established pattern.  Now, I think Chappelle is funny, but not the GOAT; he's not even top three if you ask me (that's Carlin, Rock, Burr for me).

I think we forget, in this age of dire seriousness, that it's still art.  And art is, foremost, about expression.  This notion that there can never be criticism of anything other than white, straight men (and sometimes women) is destined for failure; it's only going to bring about the same resentments and elitism that we're fighting against, just pointed in a different direction.  (And if you think about it, we're already there; globally, white straight males are a minority, yet the tolerance paradigms have not shifted accordingly).

By and large, I agree.  I do think some comedians use the comedy cover as an excuse to say whatever they want (Kathy Griffin for one, although calling her someone as unfunny as her a comedian seems odd), but for the most part the job of a comedian is to get people to laugh, and that usually entails making fun or anything or anyone that will get people to laugh.

Kathy Griffin is a professional celebrity; I don't consider her a comedian, any more than I consider, say, Paris Hilton a musician.

I think we've defaulted too quickly to "anger" as a reaction, and "hate" as a motivator.   I think there's wisdom to be gleaned from looking at WHY certain jokes are funny, why they land, and having an intellectual mind to a) not react to those jokes with the default of "anger" and b) not assuming that the jokes are rooted in "hate".   There's a disconnect; me being "offended" by something you say doesn't have anything to do with your motivations in saying it.

We also need to decide - not the right word - what the science says about messaging.   We know, now, that lyrics don't cause suicide, we know, now, that video games don't cause violence, but we're still sort of stuck on this notion that other things that "offend" somehow have a causal effect - a negative causal effect - on our society.   It's anecdotal, and a little facetious, but it never ceases to fascinate me how one trans joke is supposed to be a trigger for violence against trans people, but thousands of jokes, songs, movies, memes, tweets, etc. about love and peace and tolerance don't seem to carry any weight.   We are at the height of identity politics awareness, and yet we live in some of the most divisive times in decades at least.  Someone is going to have to answer to that at some point.

Then you get the media involved and they give the soap box to the loudest angry influencer and run that story non-stop and you have people now angry at chappelle, many who have not even watched the special and also who will not watch it at all. Because the media chose to present this story and use the loudest angry soap box to project this narrative of "hate speech".

[Stadler]

It's almost an absolute that what the mob THINKS was said is not in fact what was ACTUALLY said, either in context or in fact.

[cramx3]

It's almost an absolute that what the mob THINKS was said is not in fact what was ACTUALLY said, either in context or in fact.

This was a big point he was making in the special.  Whenever he would ask why the trans person was hating on him, they always respond with what they read about him not with what he actually said.  I feel like that's also exactly what's happening with the current special.  He's making a very clear point in this special and it's not to make fun of trans people (even though he cracks jokes about them as well with every other race/ethnicity/sexuality along the way).

[XeRocks81]

Dave Chappelle is impossible to cancel at this point, it’s ridiculous to even consider.  He just has backlash, that’s all.  I am the biggest fan, I travelled from Quebec to Boston to see him in 2018 but I’m done for now, I hope he reconsiders his approach to this topic. 

[hefdaddy42]

It's almost an absolute that what the mob THINKS was said is not in fact what was ACTUALLY said, either in context or in fact.

Exactly why I want to see the special myself before even constructing an opinion.

[King Postwhore]

I though he was thought provoking in a comedic way.  I laughed then I paused to think about it.

It's good conversations that we all need.

[XeRocks81]

he’s still one of the best storytellers in the business

[Mladen]

I like your post a lot.  But I'm confused by this part in particular:

That being said, given the nature of stand up comedy, it is sometimes difficult to distinguish jokes and performance from the person's actual opinion. If he is in fact misinformed about gender / sex / the concept of being trans, there is room for improvement in his perception. However, implementing the tools of cancel culture might not be the way to go with it.

Is there a connector between your first sentence and your second, or are they simply unrelated thoughts?  I don't know that it matters whether a joke is or is not from the person's actual opinion, does it?

I think that particular musing was influenced by statements that occur between the jokes in stand up comedy. At one point, Dave says: "I agree. Gender is a fact." It does in fact serve as a set up to a punchline that follows, but on its own, it bring up the question whether or not that is his personal opinion. If there is more to that statement than just a set up to a punchline, trans people might take it as a discussion topic. From what I can gather, trans people tend to distinquish between gender and sex, or sometimes between gender and gender assigned at birth. But then again, I'm not particularly up to date when it comes to the topic. I'm just discussing stand up comedy, which I'm passionate about. 

[orcus116]

It's almost an absolute that what the mob THINKS was said is not in fact what was ACTUALLY said, either in context or in fact.

That's pretty much what I've been seeing. One my friends was responding to Facebook posts with his opinion on all of this and then admitted "well I didn't actually watch it but from what I've read...".

[Zantera]

I remember enjoying the Sticks and Stones special but this most recent one was pretty bad by his standards IMO. I don't care about the controversies and I'm also not a person who gets offended by jokes but my main disappointment with it was that I don't remember laughing more than once or twice in 70 minutes.

[cramx3]

I remember enjoying the Sticks and Stones special but this most recent one was pretty bad by his standards IMO. I don't care about the controversies and I'm also not a person who gets offended by jokes but my main disappointment with it was that I don't remember laughing more than once or twice in 70 minutes.

I had like 8 - 10 laughs I think.  But I'm not sure I'd recommend this, it overall wasn't that funny and ended up being too serious for a stand up comedy act IMO. 

[Skeever]

I did actually watch the Segment on The Closer.
It was... alright. Chappelle has been telling trans jokes for awhile. He's told some funny ones that were offensive, and some that weren't, really.

The segment in The Closer is not very funny. As Stadler said here a page back, "no insight, no growth, no revelation", and that's what I would say about that joke. It's the kind of low brow thing that you might have rolled your eyes at 5 years ago. But what makes comedy next level is when it not only entertains, but delivers on some higher truth, or allows us to look at something from an angle we hadn't truly considered before.

Chappelle has been far more entertaining to me than not, including many of the times when he's skirted the line or outright crossed it on political correctness? But that segment was just weak, seems like he's gotten a few too many paydays from Netflix and is just phoning it in.

[lonestar]

I haven't heard the bit, but the story has been running hard on local talk radio. As others have pointed out, comedians have been pushing the edge for ages, it's their job. One thing one host has been hammering on is that comedians should punch up, not down, which I kind of agree with, but in the end Chappelle is responsible for his brand, and can manage it as he sees fit. If public opinion is strong enough, he'll feel it, but I doubt he will. He's in that rarefied area, akin to South Park, where there really isn't any taboo subjects, at least not too taboo for him.

[ThatOneGuy2112]

.

[Stadler]

I'm not replying to any one person, which is why there is no quote, but there are a couple concepts I'd like to respond to.

The notion of punching up/punching down.   I'm not sure why that's important?  Isn't any artist - any well-known artist - that is taking shots at someone or some group that cannot respond directly almost by definition punching down?  Why should that matter?  And I alluded to this in a previous post, who's to say what constitutes "up" and "down" in this context?

The concept of "who gets to be offended"; this, it should be obvious, is where many of my concerns lie; we're specifically talking about the trans community here; that is roughly 1.5M people (adults) out of a population of 330M.  That's not insignificant, but in this age where everyone has a bully pulpit (social media) you get voices that have an inordinate amount of power.  With great power comes great responsibility, and in the realm of identity politics, that seems to be distorted.  That ONE PERSON (or even a minority subset of the subgroup) is offended, does that necessarily rise to a violation of that responsibility?  Or does that "offense" create it's own responsibility?  I don't think it does.  There's no duty; Dave Chappelle has no obligation - nor should he - to any one person, who may have a legitimate beef, but may also be simply burdened by late rent, or physical issues, or dischord with their parents/family, etc. that make them cranky at any one time. 

Especially in an artform like comedy, where there are so many different approaches and nuances - sarcasm, satire, parody - this idea that no one (well, except straight white males) should be offended is an inhibitor.  It's going to chill meaningful conversations, conversations that NEED to be had if there is going to be greater understanding moving forward.  Not that Chappelle is a martyr or anything, but we've had more conversations (such that they are) about the trans experience as a result of Dave Chappelle than we had before (which is to say, zero).  Maybe we ought to stop ostracizing "good" in pursuit of "great" (a subjective measure in and of itself). 

[cramx3]

The notion of punching up/punching down.   I'm not sure why that's important?  Isn't any artist - any well-known artist - that is taking shots at someone or some group that cannot respond directly almost by definition punching down?  Why should that matter?  And I alluded to this in a previous post, who's to say what constitutes "up" and "down" in this context?

It comes up in the special, hence why it was brought up in this thread.  Dave talks a bit about punching down and then claims the trans community has been punching down on him. I've honestly never heard this term before the special.

[hefdaddy42]

As I understand the term and how it's normally used, I'm not sure that any punching from the trans community toward Dave Chapelle would be punching DOWN.  That would be punching UP.

[Adami]

Yea. It’s about power structure. A boss mocking his employees is punching down. An employee mocking their boss is punching up. A famous celebrity making fun of a marginalized community with very little power is punching down. A marginalized community with little power making fun of a famous celebrity is punching up.

I’m already awaiting Stadler totally disagreeing with this concept. 

[cramx3]

I'm not sold I agree with Dave that he is getting punched down if that's the interpretation of the phrase, but it is more nuanced than that it seems based on his view of it. What about getting ganged up on?  What about when the ganging up causes someone to commit suicide? These are points he brings up.

[Stadler]

Yea. It’s about power structure. A boss mocking his employees is punching down. An employee mocking their boss is punching up. A famous celebrity making fun of a marginalized community with very little power is punching down. A marginalized community with little power making fun of a famous celebrity is punching up.

I’m already awaiting Stadler totally disagreeing with this concept. 

I agree with the concept, for sure.  I disagree with the analysis.  At least in the identity politics arena, the notion that the "marginalized" communities are punching up is debatable.   

[jammindude]

Yea. It’s about power structure. A boss mocking his employees is punching down. An employee mocking their boss is punching up. A famous celebrity making fun of a marginalized community with very little power is punching down. A marginalized community with little power making fun of a famous celebrity is punching up.

I’m already awaiting Stadler totally disagreeing with this concept. 

But when said comedian comes from a marginalized group of his own, IMO, things get murkier.

I mean, didn’t Mel Brooks make an entire career out of that? It’s my understanding that one of the many reasons he got away with Blazing Saddles (and other ethnic jokes in his movies) was because he himself was Jewish.

Is there any such thing as “punching across”?

[darkshade]

I watched the special. I've enjoyed Dave Chappelle's work since before Chappelle's Show.

There was no "punching down".

In fact, it seems the real issue that everyone is ignoring is it was social media, not music, not comedy, not movies, not video games, that helped lead to the suicide of Dave's trans friend, and the people on social media that blasted the trans friend for defending Dave and his work, were/are members of the LGBTQA community themselves. Seems to me that outrage culture, cancel culture, as well as tribalism and 'wrong think' are some of the most dangerous aspects of modern society today.
You wouldn't realize that if you didn't watch the special.

As for the special lacking "jokes" there were plenty of laugh out loud moments for me, and stand up isn't always about telling one joke after another. In fact, George Carlin's HBO special "Life is Worth Losing" was considered un-funny, I thought so at the time (2005) and even the audience there only let out a few nervous laughs on tape. Watching it in 2021, I found it funnier than ever, and one of the most profound stand up specials ever created. It wasn't preachy. It was exposing how fucked up humans are and how we in America don't bat an eye over the atrocities the US government commits, unless the media blasts it in our face for 4 straight years like they did with President Trump, who was arguably the least terrible President for the planet in the last 40 years when you compare the policies of every other US President since JFK, and if the media spread as much propaganda about other politicians like they did with Trump, we MIGHT actually elect better people to run the country, because the average moron would know how bad these people really are, and how they could not care less about you or your well being, when they give those 'righteous' speeches.

[Stadler]

Yea. It’s about power structure. A boss mocking his employees is punching down. An employee mocking their boss is punching up. A famous celebrity making fun of a marginalized community with very little power is punching down. A marginalized community with little power making fun of a famous celebrity is punching up.

I’m already awaiting Stadler totally disagreeing with this concept. 

But when said comedian comes from a marginalized group of his own, IMO, things get murkier.

I mean, didn’t Mel Brooks make an entire career out of that? It’s my understanding that one of the many reasons he got away with Blazing Saddles (and other ethnic jokes in his movies) was because he himself was Jewish.

Is there any such thing as “punching across”?

The psychology of "punching across" is fascinating to me.  I'm not sure I agree with the rationale of "I can do it and you can't."    We don't like when Trump is racially cavalier, because it supposedly "empowers" the racists; do we really think that African Americans saying the n-word doesn't do the same?   Do we really think that Randall Redneck is saying "wow, Dave Chappelle really owns that word; I can't say it now!"  Because Randy IS still saying it, and it IS still having a devastating impact.  Isn't it just as likely that Randy is instead thinking "yep, just another way they're getting one over on us!" or whatever it is that racists use to justify their actions?   Bigotry is diminished by reducing the in-groups and out-groups.  Taking ownership of a word or a joke or a point of view is only REINFORCING the in-groups and out-groups.  What's more "in-group" than "I can do it and you can't!"

[XeRocks81]

often times in these situations I've seen comments (and I've said it myself sometimes) along the lines of why don't these institutions just stick to their guns?  Well it seems Netflix is really doing that so far, for good or ill I don't know https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/15/22728337/netflix-fires-organizer-trans-employee-walkout-dave-chappelle

[KevShmev]

often times in these situations I've seen comments (and I've said it myself sometimes) along the lines of why don't these institutions just stick to their guns?  Well it seems Netflix is really doing that so far, for good or ill I don't know https://www.theverge.com/2021/10/15/22728337/netflix-fires-organizer-trans-employee-walkout-dave-chappelle

Well, to be fair, Netflix is big business, and they are sticking to their guns because Chappelle is wildly popular and makes them a lot of money.  If this was some no-name comedian still looking to make a name for him or herself, I think it's safe bet that Netflix would have shown them the door.

As for the organizer who was fired, well, yeah, if you leak confidential info about the company for whom you work to the public, you are basically asking for your walking papers.

[King Postwhore]

Kev, that's a big....."Duh."

[KevShmev]

Some need the obvious pointed out.

[King Postwhore]

 

I also love reading the DTF critics. This guy is on his game. He may not be as funny but it's for a reason.   He's at the point that he wants to influence and not just get the chuckle.

To have the balls to do that is rarified air.

[Dave_Manchester]

Just watched the show under discussion. Unfunny but interesting (exactly like the last show of his I watched, the one where he talked about the Jussie Smollet incident). I guessed going into it that most of the media-manufactured reaction would turn out to be overblown, and that's been confirmed. This is what's "challenging" now apparently. We've come a long way from George Carlin's 10 Commandments bit, or Bill Hicks' War on Drugs skit, or Richard Pryor on cops killing black folk, or Chris Rock's bit on the difference between black people and niggas.

I love Chappelle's early work but this new stuff is just the Ricky Gervais pablum all over again. Honestly I'm offended that I wasn't more offended by it. Despite what certain quarters of the internet are saying, Chappelle doesn't "hate" trans people, he (like Gervais) finds them inherently ridiculous, and the trans community aren't "outraged" about the show, they're just annoyed that people who have no idea what they're talking about are talking about it from the lofty headline-generating platform that wealth gives you. It's the modern thing now in stand-up comedy. "That's my job, I'm a stand-up comedian, I'm meant to challenge people, if you don't like being challenged, don't watch my show!". Yeah because you know who's been long overdue a challenge? The trans community. They've had their guard down for way too long, they'll all be checking their privilege on the way home now thanks to you, Dave.

For fuck's sake it's just so bland and pointless a target. Go joke about Israel, show me how brave and "challenging" you are, let's see how long Netflix "embraces your challenging points of view". This trans stuff is childish. Of all the cunts in the world right now who need a light shone upon them it's the trans community you feel need "challenging" in special after special? Hicks would never have done this, and neither would Carlin or Pryor. Chappelle wanted to be taken seriously during his show about the death of George Floyd a year or so ago. I was patient with him watching that, because despite being unfunny it was incredibly heart-felt and showcased his profound intelligence and occasionally startling gift with language. But you can't pick and choose when you want to be taken at your word and when it's all 'just jokes'. His final statement in this new special amounted to "I'm not telling these jokes any more until I can be sure everyone's laughing with me", and that's something Pryor and Hicks and Carlin would never have needed to say. There's nothing noble in passive-aggressively saying you're quitting the theme until people agree with you. Maybe Chappelle is a victim of the times, I don't know. But what I do know is that there was more intelligence and insight and social commentary and HUMOUR (remember that?) in his "grape drink" bit from God knows how long ago than there is in this weird fixation on trans issues.

Damn you pancreatic cancer, why did you have to take Bill Hicks so young? He's the guy our times desperately needed. Joking about the trans community in 2021 would have been so far beneath him.

[King Postwhore]

I honestly think that's hyperbole Dave.

I think most take what they want and turn it into what they perceive.   He's making a statement and if you don't like his statement, you are bored.  It you dig it, you like it.

Me, I'm glad he's pushing boundaries for comedians?  Not many. 

He has a platform,  and he actually tries to get most to
compromise.  These days, most don't want to.

We need more compromise these days 

[Dave_Manchester]

^^ To me, Dave Chappelle pushed boundaries for comedians with his early work on racial and social inequality. His bits on the "Chinese terrorists" calling the White House about the black hostages they'd taken? Brilliant. His white buddy 'Chip', who acted as a white mirror to the black experience with cops? Genius. Grape drink? Already mentioned it. The TV stuff he did with Clayton Bixby (the blind black white supremacist) or the 'Niggar Family'? Absolutely ground-breaking (and also very brave, given when he was doing it).

That he is now reduced to being praised for his takes on trans issues by non-trans people is, to me, a comment on where America is at right now. The greatest comedians are ahead of the times, not bogged down in them. I haven't seen a single person saying "His latest special was very funny!". Anyone praising it is saying "Yeah it wasn't very funny but it needed saying!" (which to me is like saying "Dream Theater's new album doesn't sound very good but it uses an 8-string in a crazy time signature and so therefore it's great!") You needed this saying to you? This opened anybody's eyes in some way? You've come away from this with anything other than a sense that someone other than you is guilty of being stupid and absurd?

This special will not be remembered, because it's not something a great comedian wastes his time on. Just my opinion.

[King Postwhore]

So it's OK to take on race issues but not Trans issues?

In the end, he comes to defend a Trans he becomes friends with only to have the community destroy his friend to the point of suicide.

We are supposed to shun that as he's not funny or he punches down?  He shows that we all can change and need to reach out but it's his worst work. 

I find hypocrisy in that if you don't agree with him socially,  he's,

A.  Not funny
B. Off base.

We need more realization in our world these days.

[Dave_Manchester]

Never mind.

[King Postwhore]

I disagree.  This special is all most talk about in social media. I can't say it will be remembered but I can say it's touched a nerve right now.

[Dave_Manchester]

What's being talked about on social media right now is not a litmus test of how intelligent or insightful something is. If tomorrow Tom Brady tweets out "Fuck niggers" it will crash Twitter within the hour, that doesn't mean he's struck intellectual gold. And as for "touching a nerve right now", it is not difficult to touch nerves, especially in our Year of Tribalism 2021. It is far more difficult and clever to speak to people without first needing to provoke their disdain and mockery for some other group. This is what I wish Dave Chappelle would turn his formidable intelligence and life experience towards. He used to do it.