Dave Chappelle

[darkshade]

I'm clearly not saying that, and it's unclear why you would expect me to engage with such blatantly disingenuous bait.

No bait, I'm pointing out how the two terms 'trans' and 'cis' mean the opposite when describing sexual identity, because the topic of semantics came up, and I find that stuff interesting, since the use of the English language is filled with inconsistency, especially in the US.

If we were consistent, calling someone "transgender" would actually be an insult, a microaggression.

I like the English language, and how it gets twisted over time.
Think about it, people used to call midgets midgets, then little people, now I think it's "height impaired"
or crippled people, first you had to call them handicapped, now it's "differently abled".

but no one wants to call transgenders "those suffering from gender dysphoria" even though that is what it is. I'm not making it up. I'm not saying they're bad people for it. Just like I wouldn't call someone suffering from clinical depression or schizophrenia a bad person. It's not bad or good. It's just a product of how our brains develop over time from birth to adulthood and beyond. Everyone is different. Everyone. Not everyone accepts that, though. However, we've all agreed to use the same language (at least when using English) and agreed on the definitions of the words we use, except when it isn't convenient for some. Transgender is also a human thing. Sure, some animals can show sequential hermaphroditism, but that is different. Of course, humans are the only species that commit genocide, killing for pleasure, torturing others, necrophilia, and all kinds of things that you would probably say is not good, healthy, or natural. But I'll probably get banned from DTF for even bringing this up in this thread.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Ok, since apparently we're going to keep doing this:

Despite that, are you saying only cis gendered people can be crazy? or racist? or phobic of other groups of people different from themselves? Are these people not human?
Are you saying there are no crazy people in the LGBTQA community at large?

This is bait. I'm obviously not saying any of these things and neither of us are dumb enough to believe I am, so the only goal is either to just annoy me or bait me into defending a dumb argument I didn't make. So point on the first, at least.

Further, you're still wrong in your semantics argument because defining cis as good and trans as bad based on a really narrow and hand-wavey interpretation of how those prefixes are used. Cis and trans are used in lots of places in science and have nothing to do with whether something's good or bad or not.

[King Postwhore]

How do you know they are depressed Dr. Darkshade?

[darkshade]

How do you know they are depressed Dr. Darkshade?

We're all depressed until you study history. Then it's hard to be depressed when you realize you have a toilet and running water and an abundance of food everywhere, often 24/7 (unless the current "administration" has anything to do with it) and we're the most tolerant society to ever exist, so far as known recorded history is concerned.

[darkshade]

Ok, since apparently we're going to keep doing this:

Despite that, are you saying only cis gendered people can be crazy? or racist? or phobic of other groups of people different from themselves? Are these people not human?
Are you saying there are no crazy people in the LGBTQA community at large?

This is bait. I'm obviously not saying any of these things and neither of us are dumb enough to believe I am, so the only goal is either to just annoy me or bait me into defending a dumb argument I didn't make. So point on the first, at least.

Further, you're still wrong in your semantics argument because defining cis as good and trans as bad based on a really narrow and hand-wavey interpretation of how those prefixes are used. Cis and trans are used in lots of places in science and have nothing to do with whether something's good or bad or not.

Sorry, I didn't mean to bait you or anyone, or give off that impression. The terms themselves are benign, when talking chemistry. It's how they affect the human body that makes them good or bad. Trans fats weren't banned for no reason.

[King Postwhore]

I'd say you're wring. Some feel liberated admitting they are cis, ect.  It's liberating for some coming out. I know this from a few friends that did. 

[darkshade]

I'd say you're wring. Some feel liberated admitting they are cis, ect.  It's liberating for some coming out. I know this from a few friends that did.

That's great! I'm all for what makes people feel better about themselves.
but that has nothing to do with semantics.

Wouldn't coming out as "cisgender" be like a baseball player coming out and admitting "I like baseball" though?
cis·gen·der
/sisˈjendər/
adjective

    denoting or relating to a person whose sense of personal identity and gender corresponds with their birth sex.
    "this newfound attention to the plight of black trans folks by primarily cisgender allies is timely and necessary
Definitions from Oxford Languages

[King Postwhore]

Saying we are all depressed is disingenuous.

[darkshade]

Saying we are all depressed is disingenuous.

Is using the word 'disingenuous' three times in one thread similar to saying 'Beetlejuice' three times?

[King Postwhore]

You are being disingenuous.  Your thought process is the true though process. Not all think like you.

[darkshade]

You are being disingenuous.  Your thought process is the true though process. Not all think like you.

That would make for a boring existence if they did, after about a week.

I never stated transgenders are 'depressed' by the way, although the term 'transgender' was first coined by a white male 'cisgender' psychiatrist.

[King Postwhore]

You didn't?  Better check the definition bro.

but no one wants to call transgenders "those suffering from gender dysphoria" even though that is what it is

[darkshade]

You didn't?  Better check the definition bro.

but no one wants to call transgenders "those suffering from gender dysphoria" even though that is what it is

Having it can lead to depression, sure, but it doesn't mean they're automatically depressed because they have it. So you can't say all transgender people are depressed because they're transgender.

I don't believe anyone, in the US at least, is truly depressed though. Unenlightened? Maybe... Sad at times, sure, who isn't? Melancholic? Sometimes.
I have my good days and bad days.
Read a history book or two, a good one, and your depression melts away. I'd rather be depressed in 2021 than happy in 1179, 1682, 1847, or even freaking 1945, only 75 short years ago.

[TAC]

You didn't?  Better check the definition bro.

but no one wants to call transgenders "those suffering from gender dysphoria" even though that is what it is

Having it can lead to depression, sure, but it doesn't mean they're automatically depressed because they have it. So you can't say all transgender people are depressed because they're transgender.

I don't believe anyone, in the US, is truly depressed though. Unenlightened? Maybe... Sad at times, sure, who isn't? Melancholic? Sometimes.
Read a history book or two, a good one, and your depression melts away.

I don't know, Darkshade. No matter what the generational circumstances are, the concerns are always the same. Providing for and the welfare of one's family. I realize cavemen didn't have iPhones but it doesn't make our worries any less than theirs.

I don't have to be worried about being eaten by a dinosaur, sure, but I do work in the city, and I worry about getting hit by a stray bullet just driving to work.

[King Postwhore]

You are suggesting they are.  If you didn't mean that, you wouldn't bring it up.  Again, your thought process is not theirs.

Same with me. I don't understand their thought process because I don't think like that.  That being said, I can still sympathize with them.

Also, you are bringing up something that Chappelle didn't. Thus, adding your 2 cents about how you feel.
.sometimes it's better to say nothing.

[darkshade]

You didn't?  Better check the definition bro.

but no one wants to call transgenders "those suffering from gender dysphoria" even though that is what it is

Having it can lead to depression, sure, but it doesn't mean they're automatically depressed because they have it. So you can't say all transgender people are depressed because they're transgender.

I don't believe anyone, in the US, is truly depressed though. Unenlightened? Maybe... Sad at times, sure, who isn't? Melancholic? Sometimes.
Read a history book or two, a good one, and your depression melts away.

I don't know, Darkshade. No matter what the generational circumstances are, the concerns are always the same. Providing for and the welfare of one's family. I realize cavemen didn't have iPhones but it doesn't make our worries any less than theirs.

I don't have to be worried about being eaten by a dinosaur, sure, but I do work in the city, and I worry about getting hit by a stray bullet just driving to work.

What I mean is, studying history can give you new appreciation for current times, how easy we all have it. Of course there are things to worry about. There always are. We don't know what people in the distant future will have that we don't, cavemen didn't know what they were missing. Who's to say ancient people didn't have luxuries similar to ours, before some catastrophe wiped them and the evidence of what their society was like, out? Who's forcing you to stick to this job that requires you to dodge literal bullets during your commute? Surely these days it is easier than ever to change professions, unlike 100 years ago or more, where options were way more limited.

[darkshade]

You are suggesting they are.  If you didn't mean that, you wouldn't bring it up.  Again, your thought process is not theirs.

Same with me. I don't understand their thought process because I don't think like that.  That being said, I can still sympathize with them.

Also, you are bringing up something that Chappelle didn't. Thus, adding your 2 cents about how you feel.
.sometimes it's better to say nothing.

but you know my thought process, which is why you insist it's why I brought up the medical term?
Sorry but the actual definition doesn't mention depression, other than it can sometimes lead to it. Many things can lead to depression. Being a straight man and marrying a woman can also lead to depression. You wouldn't say all straight men who marry a woman are depressed.

I empathize more than I sympathize, though I do both. Empathy is lacking in our culture these days. Doesn't mean I can't enjoy dissecting language, or have no sense of humor or don't enjoy tongue in cheek jabs.

[TAC]

Darkshade, I've studied plenty of history. I both appreciate it and respect it.

I think your assertion that we don't have anything to be depressed about compared to olden times is way off base. It's too simplistic and doesn't take into account what humans actually fear.

I used the example of stray bullets, but I could've easily used the example of drunk drivers.

[King Postwhore]

Or someone who types hate speech on others serial identity. 

[darkshade]

Darkshade, I've studied plenty of history. I both appreciate it and respect it.

I think your assertion that we don't have anything to be depressed about compared to olden times is way off base. It's too simplistic and doesn't take into account what humans actually fear.

I used the example of stray bullets, but I could've easily used the example of drunk drivers.

Humans fear death and being made a fool of in front of a group of people more than 3 in size.
I don't fear drunk drivers. If you decide to enter a motor vehicle, you should know the risks.
I think distracted drivers and speeders pose more of a threat on the road anyway.
I'd rather drive on a road filled with drunk drivers and people looking at their phones, than a dark empty road with one cop sitting on the side with his lights off.

[darkshade]

Or someone who types hate speech on others serial identity.

I know the cons have been saying this a lot lately, but I don't believe hate speech is real.
Is giving attention to speech that calls for incitement of violence an intelligent thing to do? The media does this all the time.

Is it hate speech if I say I wish all Trump supporters should be identified, and publicly hanged or shot? Depends on who you ask.'
If hate speech is real, how come it has no legal definition under U.S. law?
Back to semantics, what's the difference between a violent crime and a hate crime? Anyone who commits a violent crime has hate in their heart.
It's not a hate crime if a white guy kills another white guy? The victim has to be some other identifier for it to be so??

[Dave_Manchester]

For those confused about what's going on right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

[darkshade]

Or someone who types hate speech on others serial identity.

You're sig includes a quote from Bob Newhart, which could be viewed as hate speech against anyone who likes country music.

[darkshade]

For those confused about what's going on right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

That made me laugh. I didn't do it on purpose, though I wouldn't say my arguments lack strength. I was responding to kindshmegland insistence of knowing my thought process. He's also this close to calling me all the trendy terms used in political discourse when their argument isn't strong enough.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

For those confused about what's going on right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

I felt like there was a bit of sea lion mixed into the stew as well.

[darkshade]

For those confused about what's going on right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

I felt like there was a bit of sea lion mixed into the stew as well.

Rhetorical questions aren't bait or trolling, no matter how much you think it is.
I pointed out a lot of things related to semantics as well as human behavior, but yea, I'm trolling you.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

Well, I'm glad we're in agreement then.

[darkshade]

Well, I'm glad we're in agreement then.

I forgot DTF likes to use green text to indicate sarcasm.

[King Postwhore]

Or someone who types hate speech on others serial identity.

You're sig includes a quote from Bob Newhart, which could be viewed as hate speech against anyone who likes country music.

My sig is a joke about my dislike of country music. You are annoying.

[King Postwhore]

For those confused about what's going on right now:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gish_gallop

That made me laugh. I didn't do it on purpose, though I wouldn't say my arguments lack strength. I was responding to kindshmegland insistence of knowing my thought process. He's also this close to calling me all the trendy terms used in political discourse when their argument isn't strong enough.

If you are calling me trendy, you truly are delusional.   

[Stadler]

Ok, since apparently we're going to keep doing this:

Despite that, are you saying only cis gendered people can be crazy? or racist? or phobic of other groups of people different from themselves? Are these people not human?
Are you saying there are no crazy people in the LGBTQA community at large?

This is bait. I'm obviously not saying any of these things and neither of us are dumb enough to believe I am, so the only goal is either to just annoy me or bait me into defending a dumb argument I didn't make. So point on the first, at least.

Further, you're still wrong in your semantics argument because defining cis as good and trans as bad based on a really narrow and hand-wavey interpretation of how those prefixes are used. Cis and trans are used in lots of places in science and have nothing to do with whether something's good or bad or not.

Say what you want about Darkshade's specific point on trans- and cis-, there's no need to mock the approach; this happens EVERY DAY in politics.   The semantics DO matter.  "Progressive"; who wants to be "regressive", amiright?   "Pro-LIFE"; who's pro-death, amiright?  There are entire books - no, treatises (meaning, multiple volumes) - on the semantics of political and ideological discourse.  (George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant: Know Your Values and Frame the Debate" is essential reading, and many of Noam Chomsky's works incorporate these ideas). 

I've personally written a lot about this, and will continue to do so.  The recent terminology "I'm not okay with that"; it's divisive; it totally eliminates the possibility of a neutral stance on things.  The reasonable approach would be "Yes (ok)", "no" and "maybe (indifferent)".  When something is "not ok" it emcompasses the indifferent.   Most people don't even notice this semantics game, and many don't care (or don't intend it).  But it's there, and the pscyhe notices, picks up on it.    The same with the slippery slope of "tolerance"; when the identity politics movement started, the goal was "tolerance".  Just "tolerate"; you need not accept or think like we do, but "tolerate".   "Tolerate" soon became a euphemism for acceptance; it wasn't enough to "tolerate", we had to "accept" fully. Now we're past that, and some, on the fringes to be sure, now actually DO want to change the way others think.  It's not even enough to accept and live in harmony, we've got to full understanding and ideological homogeneity. 

As for the genesis of the words, I think Darkshade is grasping at straws, at least to my understanding.  But he's not completely wrong; I HAVE heard "that's so cis" as a disparagement.

ALL of this is "in-groups" and "out-groups".  Just another way to segregate and marginalize.   This is where our bigotry takes root. To Bart's point in another thread, we - Americans, and I would extend this to "humans" in this regard - are not good at separating ourselves from our "greatness" and this is one of those areas.  We need to me more conscious of how our words create boundaries and create segments.  It's these segments that are leading to what Robert Gates - ex Secretary of Defense - has called the single greatest threat to our democracy - our polarization (Yeah, that's the second reference to that; I heard him say it and got a little bit of a woody, there, I'll admit).

[Adami]

Dude was pretty funny in Robin Hood: Men in Tights, right?

[darkshade]

Or someone who types hate speech on others serial identity.

You're sig includes a quote from Bob Newhart, which could be viewed as hate speech against anyone who likes country music.

My sig is a joke about my dislike of country music. You are annoying.

One man's joke is another man's hate speech. The quote calls a large group of people stupid, unintelligent, and uneducated.

Like I said, I don't believe hate speech is real, but I'm just following the logic of this whole outrage over Chappelle's speech.

[Adami]

Also maybe controversial, but I thought he was quite pleasant in You've Got Mail.

[lonestar]

Also maybe controversial, but I thought he was quite pleasant in You've Got Mail.

Never saw that film.