Marvel's Movie/TV Universe v2 (SPOILERS)

[hefdaddy42]

The only reason that Spidey is "great" again is because of the connection to the MCU.  Otherwise, Sony has no idea how to handle the character.

Can they make a good film with Holland and Watts?  Yeah, I guess, but without that grounding in a larger universe, it will remain hollow and inferior to Homecoming and Far From Home.  And you can forget the next one hitting the billion dollar mark.

[ariich]

I've liked both Spider-man films but the only reason I caught Far From Home in the cinema was because it's part of the MCU. If future ones aren't, I'm extremely unlikely to go see them and would most likely wait to see them on a streaming service.

[bosk1]

I might see them or I might not.  Hard to say.  But I saw a piece earlier that I thought was laughable where the writer was saying that Sony will be fine because, in his words, the two best Spidey films of all time were not the two that are part of the MCU--Spiderman 2 and Into the Spiderverse.  Personally, while I didn't dislike either of those, I don't find them memorable at all.  Glad I saw them once.  Not desire to see them again.  If that is the best Sony can deliver, I think it's safe to say that they don't have me as a fan.

[Zantera]

I might see them or I might not.  Hard to say.  But I saw a piece earlier that I thought was laughable where the writer was saying that Sony will be fine because, in his words, the two best Spidey films of all time were not the two that are part of the MCU--Spiderman 2 and Into the Spiderverse.  Personally, while I didn't dislike either of those, I don't find them memorable at all.  Glad I saw them once.  Not desire to see them again.  If that is the best Sony can deliver, I think it's safe to say that they don't have me as a fan.

Why is that laughable though? Those 2 are generally considered the best among people.

All in all it kinda sucks we won't get the full version of this Spider-Man arc as part of the MCU. Thanks Disney.

[The Walrus]

This got me thinking about all the films so far.

Spider-Man 1: Honestly, I think it's aged well in some ways, if you consider it came out in 2002 and think about the status of hero/comic movies and what this movie did for the genre. Hard to believe it's 17 years old. The costumes have not aged well, though. Goblin's looks Playskool plastic-y and those gray lines on Spidey's suit pop way too hard (accenting the web way too much) and the colors aren't vibrant enough. I also get why Toby Maguire was who they went with - but although I think he was a good starting point, I just don't like him as either Parker or Spidey anymore. I don't hate him, I just think he's... kind of blah.

Spider-Man 2: The best of the original trilogy however it has a few problems, most of which just make it look campy as hell. The scene when Doc wakes up and starts attacking people is cringey. Some of the special effects don't look so hot anymore. But Doc Oc himself is still a joy to watch and the story is my favorite of the originals, and is the most rewatchable despite the flaws.

Spider-Man 3: This starts off promising and quickly descends into a an incomprehensible mess. Did my boy Parker dirty with that entire emo hair, dancing and swaggering thing. And then they did my boy Venoms dirty by coming up with the worst possible approach to his design and shoving him into the movie for no good reason just to have 'more' as if they hadn't already crammed 10 pounds of shit into a 5 pound bag. This movie is so bad.

The Amazing Spider-Man 1: Look, I really like this movie. I thought Andrew Garfield was a fantastic Spider-Man and Peter Parker and still think that. I also love Emma Stone so that helped me enjoy the movie, and Denis Leary as Gwen Stacy's father was, imo, smart casting. He is very believable in that role. However, I dislike Sally Fields as Aunt May, and that whole sequence of the cranes lining up for Spider-Man like it's some sort of video game is so contrived it kind of ruins the climactic energy they're going for. Never did like the Lizard in the comics but they somehow managed to make him menacing - but he's still no Doc Oc or Goblin. Spidey's outfit: better than Toby's, but too dark and too reflective. Also, the Uncle Ben stuff was old even when this came out.

The Amazing Spider-Man 2: Like TASM 1, I like this movie a lot, too. I don't see the problems with Jamie Foxx as Electro that other people seem to do. I think he's a cool villain, and I like the final battle with him even if it feels very video game-y. Green Goblin, I actually enjoyed Dane DeHaan's interpretation of Harry and especially liked the way they approached his transformation into the Goblin with the chemicals. Was it a slam dunk execution? Eh. Maybe not. But I think it's fun to watch and Garfield and Stone's chemistry is so good in this one! Now as for the ending... I've never quite settled on an opinion on it. I think the execution of the clock tower scene is really good and I love the cinematography. But that entire thing was unnecessary. So I don't know. Gwen didn't need to die at all, at least not in the movie immediately after her father died. The Rhino is... hammy. But fun. And I loved the hinting towards Sinister Six at the end, EXCEPT WE DIDN'T GET IT!

Homecoming: Tommy Hollands is. my. shiiiiiiit. The perfect Parker and the perfect Spider-man. The perfect suit, too - everything from the webbing patterns to the vibrancy of the colors and the softness of the material, and the eyes! My god, THE EYES! I cannot shower this suit with enough praise. The cast is great, I love Michael Keaton's take on Vulture. I also appreciate the way they incorporate Spidey into the MCU here and show the fallout of the Battle of New York with the Tinkerer, Shocker, and Vulture scavenging alien wreckage for parts. I'm whatever on Zendaya. The action scenes here are great. It also has the best starting scenes of any Spider-man film.

Far From Home: WHOA. Best Spider-man film yet in my opinion, which only makes the recent Spidey news that much harder to swallow. I need more time, still, before I can be honest with the flaws and reel in the praise a little.

Into the Spider-verse: A colorful, fun romp. Extremely tasty. I like it. I like it a lot.

[Lonk]

Spider-Man 2: The best of the original trilogy however it has a few problems, most of which just make it look campy as hell. The scene when Doc wakes up and starts attacking people is cringey. Some of the special effects don't look so hot anymore. But Doc Oc himself is still a joy to watch and the story is my favorite of the originals, and is the most rewatchable despite the flaws.

The worst scene in this movie for me is when Peter and MJ are at the cafe and Doc Oc. kidnaps MJ. Right before she gets kidnapped they start doing this weird zoom-in for every step Doc takes (you would think it was Godzilla or King Kong coming for them). I laugh the first time I saw it, and I still laugh at it today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8Jm9_iR6cg   (It starts at 1:20)

[The Walrus]

  I forgot about that! There is some unintentionally hilarious editing in that movie. That also reminds me that I never really thought much of Kirsten Dunst as MJ. She's not terrible or anything, but she's not that good either. She comes off as a very flat and boring interpretation of the character.

Also, that list might not seem to jibe with my earlier comments about Sony not knowing how to handle Spidey, but while most of the films are watchable, there are LOTS of little decisions - from the characters to the writing to the plot to the cinematography - that add up and affect the quality overall. 'Watchable' is just like it's there. They made it. Big gap between that and a movie that does real justice to the character and his superhero alter-ego, to me.

[Zantera]

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/22/stan-lees-daughter-sides-with-sony-in-spider-man-spat-with-disney.html

While many fans have rallied behind Disney in the wake of reports that talks had broken down between the company and Sony over future Spider-Man films, at least one person is standing behind Sony — Stan Lee's daughter.

In a statement to TMZ, Joan Lee said Marvel and Disney need to be "checked and balanced" as they seek total control of her father's creations.

"Whether it's Sony or someone else's, the continued evolution of Stan's characters and his legacy deserves multiple points of view," she said.

Lee seemed to support Sony's decision not to accept this new co-financing deal.

"When my father died, no one from Marvel or Disney reached out to me," Lee said. "From day one, they have commoditized my father's work and never shown him or his legacy any respect or decency. In the end, no one could have treated my father worse than Marvel and Disney's executives."

[Orbert]

Seriously?  Like, what the fuck is her problem?  The vast majority of Marvel fans would say that Stan Lee and his legacy were treated with the utmost respect while he lived, and we haven't seen anything to indicate that that will change now.

[jammindude]

 Wasn’t she the one that was under suspicion for elderly abuse just before he passed?

[bosk1]

@Zantera:  Okay.  But her real beef seems to be with how she believes Disney treated Stan, not how it handled this specific issue.  So I don't know that her feelings really add anything to the discussion.  And, really, it actually comes down to how she believes they treated her, which adds even less.  Not to mention the fact that, at least as far as what was presented to the public, Disney has been incredibly respectful and vocal about Stan Lee's legacy. 

But in any case:

While many fans have rallied behind Disney...

I don't see any point in "rallying behind" either.  Personally, I don't care whose fault it is.  If Disney still had its hands in Spiderman, I would likely see those films multiple times because they have a run of 10 years and 22 films that has been incredibly entertaining and has handled the MCU characters very well.  And they have handled Spidey and related characters very well in the 5 films he has appeared in. 

Spidey without Disney?  Not interested.  And, again, I don't care who is at fault.  As has already been said, in 6 films in 3 separate universes, the BEST result was a "pretty good" film, and 4 decent-to-mediocre ones.  That is their track record.  And as also stated, even if they follow the exact formula of the Disney/MCU Spidey films, it still will be lacking because it won't be part of the MCU (not to mention the fact that it will likely feel too formulaic rather than organically following the formula).  I'll probably (but not for sure) see whatever is released.  But it will probably be a one-time $.99 Redbox rental instead of seeing it in the theater and buying it on BR upon release to watch over and over again.  That isn't to "punish" the side that I am "rallying behind."  I'm just not interested if the quality isn't there, and I have zero hope that it will be.

[The Walrus]

Wasn’t she the one that was under suspicion for elderly abuse just before he passed?

No - that was his manager.

While I think it's unfortunate she's siding with Sony in this (as if it has any weight), I can understand her saltiness toward Marvel if they didn't reach out to her after her father's death considering Marvel wouldn't be what it is without him. I wouldn't get that upset at her. It's her dad, she's going to feel a little cold about that even if it seems irrational to us.

[Zantera]

Whether she is right or wrong or crazy or sane, as far as i'm concerned siding with Sony is literally the only sane option in this case. You can be salty about the split and sad that it most likely means we wont get to see this version of Spidey play out in the way they originally planned it to (hey I'm also in this group of people) but let's look at it with a neutral point of view. They had a deal that was good for both parties and Disney wants 10 times more. I'm sorry but if you think Sony are the bad guys for not taking that offer then you're crazy. If the roles were reversed Disney would laugh at Sony and throw their people out of their office. 

[bosk1]

I think most people are being neutral.  I don't see too many people labeling "good guys" or "bad guys."  It is what it is.

[Adami]

Whether she is right or wrong or crazy or sane, as far as i'm concerned siding with Sony is literally the only sane option in this case. You can be salty about the split and sad that it most likely means we wont get to see this version of Spidey play out in the way they originally planned it to (hey I'm also in this group of people) but let's look at it with a neutral point of view. They had a deal that was good for both parties and Disney wants 10 times more. I'm sorry but if you think Sony are the bad guys for not taking that offer then you're crazy. If the roles were reversed Disney would laugh at Sony and throw their people out of their office. 

But that isn’t an accurate assessment. Disney wanted to invest as much as well. And it was as low as 30.

[The Walrus]

Look, I've already admitted I'm half stupid. I will not cop to being crazy on top of that 

[Zantera]

Whether she is right or wrong or crazy or sane, as far as i'm concerned siding with Sony is literally the only sane option in this case. You can be salty about the split and sad that it most likely means we wont get to see this version of Spidey play out in the way they originally planned it to (hey I'm also in this group of people) but let's look at it with a neutral point of view. They had a deal that was good for both parties and Disney wants 10 times more. I'm sorry but if you think Sony are the bad guys for not taking that offer then you're crazy. If the roles were reversed Disney would laugh at Sony and throw their people out of their office. 

But that isn’t an accurate assessment. Disney wanted to invest as much as well. And it was as low as 30.

I haven't heard anything about 30 but even so that's not low. Marvel were still getting 100% of the licensed stuff (toys, clothing etc). Plus even if they wanted to invest it would only be to take even more control. But in the end it is what it is. You can try a scandalous offer in the hopes that the other party will accept it but there's also the risk they will just say "yeah.. no" and stop doing business with you as well.

In the end it is what it is. I think Sony has done the best Spider-Man movies without Disney's involvement (Raimi trilogy and Spider-Verse) but they've also made the 2 worst ones by far (TASM1 and TASM2) so who knows what will come from all of this? Hopefully they have learned some things from these 2 movies with Disney. Just compare the shockingly lazy and bad fan service of TASM2 with Sinister Six and Felicia Hardy to the smarter and better executed fan service in Homecoming and Far From Home and it's night and day. I think they definitely can make a good follow up to the last 2 movies if they keep the cast, the hardest obstacle to overcome is how to move forward without the integration to the MCU. The suit is basically an Iron Man suit and Tony Stark is essentially this universe's Uncle Ben so to never reference that again would be weird.

 

[The Walrus]

Saying TASM and TASM2 are worse than Spider-Man 3 is like saying Season 5 of Game of Thrones is worse than Season 8

[bosk1]

Saying TASM and TASM2 are worse than Spider-Man 3 is like saying Season 5 of Game of Thrones is worse than Season 8

I...am completely lost on that analogy. 

[The Walrus]

Saying TASM and TASM2 are worse than Spider-Man 3 is like saying Season 5 of Game of Thrones is worse than Season 8

I...am completely lost on that analogy. 

Okay so like, season 5 might have been not so great a moment for Game of Thrones, but it was setting up some really cool stuff to follow, just like TASM1 and 2 were maybe not the highlights of Spidey's live action filmography but TASM2 was leading up to something really cool for a TASM3 and Sinister Six film. Game of Thrones season 8 ended the series with a wet thud, just like Spidey 3 ended the trilogy with a wet thud.

I'm also really bad at analogies so screw it

I know TASM gets a lot of flack but I can't imagine thinking they're worse than Spidey 3. Just my opinion. 

[Zantera]

Saying TASM and TASM2 are worse than Spider-Man 3 is like saying Season 5 of Game of Thrones is worse than Season 8

They definitely are to me. I can't think of anything i liked in either of them except for the costume in TASM2 which was pretty good. TASM1 is definitely a bit more solid in terms of structure though. TASM2 is a catastrophe on pretty much every level. Garfield could have been good though but the writing in the movies is pretty bad and the directing is really lackluster.

As for SM3 it is a bit of a guilty pleasure for me. I will agree it's not as good as SM1 or SM2 but for me there's a lot of good stuff in the movie, there's also a few scenes that are pretty bad. Peter Parker walking down the street, the scene when he dances at the jazz bar.. so on. Still, Sandman was imo really good (i would say almost on par with Doc Ock), and there's plenty of other things I enjoy in it too. Even lesser-Raimi is still a much better director than Marc Webb and even though I like both MCU movies I would say Jon Watts too. A scene like the birth of sandman in Spider-Man 3 for all its faults is still better and more memorable than anything from the TASM movies.

[The Walrus]

^^ Okay, I'll give you that, the Sandman stuff is actually really cool. I think Spidey 3 just shouldn't have gone with emo Parker and so many villains - if they had just left it at Sandman, and only introduced the symbiote for a potential Spidey 4 I think it would've been way better. But I do like Flint Marko in that film.

[Zantera]

^^ Okay, I'll give you that, the Sandman stuff is actually really cool. I think Spidey 3 just shouldn't have gone with emo Parker and so many villains - if they had just left it at Sandman, and only introduced the symbiote for a potential Spidey 4 I think it would've been way better. But I do like Flint Marko in that film.

I think everything with Sandman was great. Liked his backstory, the music theme and his line "I'm not a bad person, just had bad luck" has really stuck with me. Set aside the silly retcon of him being Uncle Ben's killer, I think the scene at the end when he tells Peter Parker his side of the story and asks for forgiveness is not only the best scene in the movie but one of the best in the whole trilogy. Peter forgiving him is great and the music that goes with the scene makes me a bit teary-eyed actually.

Harry as Goblin 2.0 is a bit of a mixture. I like his arc overall but I agree there are some cheesy scenes with him like the one where he teleports from the cafe, but I still think it's satisfying at the end when he shows up to help Peter in the fight. I haven't gotten a chance to see the director's cut that came out not too long ago but I heard they changed a scene where instead of the butler telling Harry that his dad died by his own glider, Harry decides to forgive Peter and help him by changing his mind instead. IMO that would have been a lot better for the theatrical cut as well.

Venom like you said should have been saved for SM4. I think they easily could have done that, but I don't really hate what we got either. I know people want big buff muscular Eddie Brock but I thought Topher Grace's version was interesting as a bizarro-Peter, basically what Peter would be if he didn't have the "with great power comes great responsibility" with him and he was only out for himself and his own glory. In the story of the movie I think he works well for how he is used, but if you look at it from a bigger comic book perspective I can see why people dislike that the biggest villain of Spidey for maybe a decade in the early 90s was basically reduced to a role more appropriate for Shocker or Rhino.

I guess what I do like with SM3 is that it rounds out the trilogy well and there's certain themes I really appreciate. SM1 is all about becoming a hero and taking on responsibility, SM2 is all about balance and managing to be both Spider-Man AND Peter Parker, and SM3 I find interesting because everything is actually going quite well initially but it kinda gets to his head and he has to go through a lot of dark stuff to come out the other way stronger. I don't mean to ramble on about SM3 but I think there's definitely a lot of great stuff in it, there's just too much stuff in it. And yeah there are a few scenes that stands out like i said in earlier post. I like Raimi for taking chances though. For example in SM2 i love the "raindrops keep fallin" scene. It stands out but it's a wonderful scene but then you get the street walk scene in SM3 which also stands out, but it doesn't work.

[The Walrus]

No, I don't think you're rambling at all, and I greatly appreciate you telling me what you like about the film. I agree with some of your points a lot, actually. Even though I think Spider-Man 3 is a bad movie, I'll still watch it when I go through the Spider-Man movies because it's still an integral part of the trilogy.

[Adami]

I'll give Sony credit for Spider-Verse, though the people behind that movie won't have anything to do with the new live-action movies, so it doesn't really matter.

I won't give them credit for Spider-Man 1 and 2 (or blame them for 3). Sony isn't a dude. I doubt the people running things now were around back then (though I could be wrong). I'll blame them for ASM 1 and 2 and their plans for the future which everyone hated and it all fell apart.

And by the way, Marvel was willing to give Sony 70% of profits (still putting in 30-50% of financing). 70% of a billion dollars is 700,000,000 dollars, which is about what Sony were making at their Spider-Man peak without Marvel.

So I get Marvel's perspective, but I also get Sony's.

Marvel wants to invest 50% and get 50%. But 50% of production is like 100 million dollars and 50% of profit is 500 million dollars. So I can see Sony not wanting to play that.

Could easily be other deals. 20% maybe and give Sony more money from the other Marvel films that Spider-Man appears in. Etc.

Luckily, the last Spider-Man film JUST came out. So they're not likely to start a new one any time soon. None of Marvel's movies next year have Spider-Man connections, so it gives both companies time to put their dicks away and make a good deal.

[gzarruk]

Don't forget that the last two live action SM movies have been 100% under Marvel's creative control. Marvel Studios basically did all the creative work, the casting, editing, etc. and Sony pretty much just slammed their logo on top of it. Marvel is completely in their right to demand more for *their* work, but Sony has the rights to the character, so it's up to them to decide...

[The Walrus]

@Adami:

"I'll blame them for ASM 1 and 2 and their plans for the future which everyone hated and it all fell apart. "

Not true, I even explicitly stated I was greatly anticipating that stuff...

[Adami]

@Adami:

"I'll blame them for ASM 1 and 2 and their plans for the future which everyone hated and it all fell apart. "

Not true, I even explicitly stated I was greatly anticipating that stuff...

Everyone but kattlelox*

[Adami]

Just read that Sony was willing to go to 25%.

If that’s true, Disney is dumb for walking away.

Hoping this is all a form of public negotiation.

[The Walrus]

@Adami:

"I'll blame them for ASM 1 and 2 and their plans for the future which everyone hated and it all fell apart. "

Not true, I even explicitly stated I was greatly anticipating that stuff...

Everyone but kattlelox*

Who's that? 

[Adami]

Hey now, it’s not my fault you’ve spelling your name wrong this whole time.

[King Postwhore]

Can you moo on Facebook and I'll have your answer?

[The Walrus]

Hey now, it’s not my fault you’ve spelling your name wrong this whole time.

It's not mine either, it's Capcom's

Can you moo on Facebook and I'll have your answer?

What? 

[King Postwhore]

Kettle = Cattle. 


Dammit man.  Use your funny bone!!

[The Walrus]