Marvel's Movie/TV Universe v2 (SPOILERS)

[The Walrus]

What in the actual fuck?

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/08/20/breaking-spider-man-out-of-the-mcu-marvel-sony-cant-reach-deal

Spider man is no longer going to be a part of the MCU.

WTF

As if I didn't already hate Sony enough. I'm livid. Spidey is by far my favorite superhero and they finally had done him justice.

Now Sony's going to neuter him again and make Tom Holland look bad. I will bet you lunch they have not learned a single lesson.

[bosk1]

Interesting (and disappointing).  If they cannot work this out, I wonder whether future Sony Spiderman efforts will suffer from lack of connective tissue to the greater MCU, since Marvel will certainly not let them use any of their properties (Nick Fury, references to Stark, etc., Happy, etc.) in any future Spidey films. 

[gzarruk]

New reboot coming in 3...2...1... 

[The Walrus]

New reboot coming in 3...2...1... 

Tom Holland and Jon Watts (FFH director) are apparently still on for two more movies. Literally the only half-good thing I can take away from this is Tom Holland now potentially appearing in the Carnage flick, which, even though it's Sony, I've been waiting for for a very very long time, and having Spider-man in it is exactly what I've wanted since I saw the teaser at the end of Venom.

But it's Sony, so it's going to suck and take a steaming heavy piss all over Spider-man once again, because that's what Sony does.

[Adami]

I guess this happens when spider-man hits over a billion.

Honestly, I kinda fault Disney here. From what I read, they wanted more money for it and Sony said no. Disney was in no position to make that deal after the last two Spider-Man films, into the spider-verse, and Venom. All very well performing even if Venom mostly sucked.

[The Walrus]

I guess this happens when spider-man hits over a billion.

Honestly, I kinda fault Disney here. From what I read, they wanted more money for it and Sony said no. Disney was in no position to make that deal after the last two Spider-Man films, into the spider-verse, and Venom. All very well performing even if Venom mostly sucked.

Both of them got greedy; Disney definitely got greedy, but Sony didn't even come back with another offer. I'm really hoping they come back and fix this soon, they are better off when they work together if Sony is never going to relinquish the rights. Literally nobody wins here, and it hurts the MCU in the long run. And Spidey, because Tom Holland can't even reference much of anything he's gone through or the people he's gotten close to as long as he's with Sony. Nobody comes out better.

[hefdaddy42]

I guess this happens when spider-man hits over a billion.

Honestly, I kinda fault Disney here. From what I read, they wanted more money for it and Sony said no. Disney was in no position to make that deal after the last two Spider-Man films, into the spider-verse, and Venom. All very well performing even if Venom mostly sucked.

They wanted more risk as well, as they wanted to co-finance.  And Disney was very much in a position to ask for this, as they were directly responsible for the biggest money-maker in Sony history.

This is foolish on Sony's part.  Spider-Man will most likely devolve into irrelevance, as they have shown they don't know how to do a film series.  Kevin Feige brought cohesion to the Spider-Man film world.  They will not know what the hell to do on their own.  They have shown that already.

[ErHaO]

I am quite pissed about this to be honest. Man do I have little faith in Sony pulling off a good live action Spidey film. Their track record is two horrid films, one very bad one and two film that have some iconic moments but have also aged now that we have so many solid to great superhero film (and Toby is just plain boring in my opinion). The only reason Spidey is relevant again is Disney. And this way MCU is fucked over as well, which is by a very far margin the best superhero entertainment franchise ever for me personally (as a collective work).

Also, I don't know how the game deals worked and what kind of contracts were used, but I sure as hell hope Disney doesn't fuck over the Sony game division.

Dammit. Also not sure if you want to take on Disney at this point, especially since they own Spidey's presence outside of film. So that could go the X-men route, which means no games, no cartoons, no merch, no toys etc. Which happened in case of the X-men (and Fantastic Four). And they have several billion+ films per year which they can slot near your film.

[Adami]

I guess this happens when spider-man hits over a billion.

Honestly, I kinda fault Disney here. From what I read, they wanted more money for it and Sony said no. Disney was in no position to make that deal after the last two Spider-Man films, into the spider-verse, and Venom. All very well performing even if Venom mostly sucked.

They wanted more risk as well, as they wanted to co-finance.  And Disney was very much in a position to ask for this, as they were directly responsible for the biggest money-maker in Sony history.

This is foolish on Sony's part.  Spider-Man will most likely devolve into irrelevance, as they have shown they don't know how to do a film series.  Kevin Feige brought cohesion to the Spider-Man film world.  They will not know what the hell to do on their own.  They have shown that already.

Hef, you know I'd rather cut off Stadler's arm than disagree with you, but I got to here a bit.

Disney essentially showed Sony how to make a great Spider-Man movie. They also (at least helped) secure good writers, a director, a brilliant cast, etc. At this point Sony just has to let the machine run itself. You know?

And risk? Come on. There's no risk here. MCU Spider-Man isn't going to fail by any stretch.

Right now Sony has the rights, the strategy from Disney, the cast, the writers, the director, etc. I'm sure they feel they can do just fine without Disney taking 5%, though they were apparently happy to offer them that continuing.

Let's also not forget that Sony did Into the Spider-Verse by themselves. Oscar winning film.

I didn't like Venom at all but it did VERY well.

I feel like Sony feels confident, and rightfully so.

There's two major issues, but they're all artistic, which these business people don't care about.
1) Spider-Man can no longer reference almost anything from the last two movies, plus he loses a lot of his tech and his..you know...entire motivation that the MCU gave him.
2) MCU can no longer reference Spider-Man. That's going to be weird, but oddly enough easier for the MCU to pull off than Sony.

I am NOT happy and really hope one of two things happens, 1) They figure out a deal and stop being selfish dicks, or 2) Disney just outright buys Spider-Man, but I don't see that happening any time until the franchise dies.

[bosk1]

Adami, other than the part about Into the Spider-Verse doing well and Venom doing fairly well (let's not kid ourselves about how well it did), I'm not sure how your post contradicts what Hef said.  Most of your points seem to bolster Disney's position and erode Sony's.

[Adami]

Adami, other than the part about Into the Spider-Verse doing well and Venom doing fairly well (let's not kid ourselves about how well it did), I'm not sure how your post contradicts what Hef said.  Most of your points seem to bolster Disney's position and erode Sony's.

Did I write my post incorrectly? Disney showed Sony the formula. Sony now has it. Sony doesn't need Disney. Or at least that's how they think. We'll see if it's true.

[The Walrus]

Just kind of screaming at clouds here: Sony has PROVEN they can't do Spider-man right. I have absolutely no faith in them to put out something that will do Spidey justice. Marvel hit home run after home run with the character. They did it right on their first try. Even if they pull it off, so what? I want Spider-man in the MCU. Not in Sony's bullshit make-believe "universe" that they want to ape from Marvel so badly. Spidey with Venom and Carnage is NOT worth Marvel losing him.

Yeah... I'm definitely with ErHaO on this, super pissed about it all.

[gzarruk]

What Kattelox said.

And sadly, this is just about money, nothing else.

[Shadow Ninja 2.0]

I've heard some people speculating that this is just a negotiation tactic, and that Disney and Sony will work something out eventually since both are benefiting from their deal. I don't know enough about this kind of stuff to say whether that's plausible or not, but I hope it is, and we get a repeat of the James Gunn decision.

[jammindude]

What in the actual fuck?

https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/08/20/breaking-spider-man-out-of-the-mcu-marvel-sony-cant-reach-deal

Spider man is no longer going to be a part of the MCU.

WTF

As if I didn't already hate Sony enough. I'm livid. Spidey is by far my favorite superhero and they finally had done him justice.

Now Sony's going to neuter him again and make Tom Holland look bad. I will bet you lunch they have not learned a single lesson.

For those who haven't checked....click it again.   The information in the article has been updated.   It does seem that the announcement of "NO MORE SPIDEY IN MCU" was premature.

[lordxizor]

I think there's a 90% chance a deal gets worked out. Both sides will suffer if they don't. This is all just a negotiation tactic.

[Polarbear]

I think there's a 90% chance a deal gets worked out. Both sides will suffer if they don't. This is all just a negotiation tactic.

Sony put out a official statement regarding the MCU split.

It's official, the partnership is over. They are planning a Venom/Spiderman crossover now.

It's disappointing, but imo not surprising.

[Zantera]

Kind of a bummer if they don't reach an agreement, Disney is definitely getting more greedy and I would fault them more than Sony in all of this.

That said, the best Spider-Man movies we've gotten have been all Sony (the Raimi ones and I would even say Into the Spidey-Verse) so I don't think it has to be all doom and gloom. I think Sony has enough of a blueprint with Homecoming and FFH to see what worked before and make a third movie that continues in that spirit. Biggest "issue" is they can't shove in MCU characters for cameos or side roles so they have to stick to what they have. It's a shame with how they set up Venom though that they already botched the Venom origins and how he's tied to Spider-Man so even though they could have Spider-Man going up against Venom or Carnage you wouldn't have that backstory which has the depth.

[ErHaO]

I assume every link to Iron Man and the Avengers is off limits, it will be a legal mess. Not just references (of which there are a looot, even his suit is Stark), but characters like Fury and Happy. Like, his entire background motivation and now closest father figure (Happy) are presumably off limits. And even the slightest reference will likely get them a lawsuit. At least, I don't think Disney will let this fare easily and they have the rights to a lot of MCU elements for themselves.

[MirrorMask]

Is there a fictional character whose on screen story is more plagued with issues than Spiderman? this franchise can never take a break it seems...

[Zantera]

I assume every link to Iron Man and the Avengers is off limits, it will be a legal mess. Not just references (of which there are a looot, even his suit is Stark), but characters like Fury and Happy. Like, his entire background motivation and now closest father figure (Happy) are presumably off limits. And even the slightest reference will likely get them a lawsuit. At least, I don't think Disney will let this fare easily and they have the rights to a lot of MCU elements for themselves.

You're right though personally I think the whole thing with him having a technological suit made by Iron Man is one of the worst parts about MCU-Spidey. So personally I would welcome a movie where it's "back to basics".

[The Walrus]

I would welcome that too.

If they weren't already in the middle of a new Spiderman story arc.

[lordxizor]

I think there's a 90% chance a deal gets worked out. Both sides will suffer if they don't. This is all just a negotiation tactic.

Sony put out a official statement regarding the MCU split.

It's official, the partnership is over. They are planning a Venom/Spiderman crossover now.

It's disappointing, but imo not surprising.

I stand by my statement. I think they'll work out a deal.

[jingle.boy]

Just kind of screaming at clouds here: Sony has PROVEN they can't do Spider-man right. I have absolutely no faith in them to put out something that will do Spidey justice. Marvel hit home run after home run with the character. They did it right on their first try. Even if they pull it off, so what? I want Spider-man in the MCU. Not in Sony's bullshit make-believe "universe" that they want to ape from Marvel so badly. Spidey with Venom and Carnage is NOT worth Marvel losing him.

Yeah... I'm definitely with ErHaO on this, super pissed about it all.

IMO, the difference is that Marvel puts fan-service first, and that has followed with the revenue/profits - VERY handsomely.  Sony on the other hand has zero fuck's to give about fan service, and treat their franchises solely as a business.  To that end, who cares if the films blow, as long as they are profitable (see Venom as the most recent example).  I'm with Adami, Sony thinks they have the formula to perform better than the Garfield franchised movies.  They don't give a shit if the actual movies are as good as HC or FFH.  So long as they are as (or more) profitable, that's the business.

It blows for the fans, but as someone said in the comments of the IGN article, the reason that Sony is ditching Disney is because dumb-fuckers went out and paid to see Venom.  If Venom's box office sucked like the movie (supposedly - I haven't seen it) did, then this might be different.  Disney is getting greedy though to ask for 50/50 split.

[The Walrus]

That's exactly why I'm so mad at Sony. They don't give a rat's ass that the fans (mostly) look down on the Sony Spiderman films, because like you said, they just care about money (which is ironic because if they really did they would actually try to do Spider-man justice the way Marvel did with such love and care).

And hey now, I paid to see Venom  Venom is an awesome character, and he looked great in the trailer (imo) so I went and saw it. Now yes, that movie did, in fact, suck balls, but Venom himself? Pretty cool, visually impressive, fearsome to watch in combat, the voice and personality was spot on, his interactions with Eddie were entertaining, but literally everything else about the movie sucked. I had NO idea it made anywhere close to as much money as it did, though. That's crazy.

Also Carnage is pretty much my favorite Spider-man villain next to Venom so I'm all-in on the sequel whether it sucks or not. Been waiting too long for Carnage to say no to it.

Also also, Into the Spider-verse was a massive success for Sony, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it. I just watched that a month or so ago and could not believe how good it was. But that wasn't a live-action Spider-man, with which Sony has a bad track record - and I'm a FAN of the Amazing Spider-man movies. They just pale compared to Marvel's movies.

[Zantera]

I think the Raimi movies are by far the best live action version of Spider-Man on the big screen. The MCU ones have been solid and definitely a big improvement over the trash pile that was The Amazing Spider-Man 1 & 2, but in reality Sony hasn't been doing THAT bad. It was similar with Fox for many years, things like "they never made a good X-Men movie" yet Logan, Days of Future Past and X2 were all great. Disney are definitely getting greedy and while a 50/50 split might sound fair to some people, it's still Sony's property. There's probably some blame to be put on both parties but personally I can't say I fault Sony for not giving away 50% of what they own. They're definitely capable of making good Spider-Man movies and have shown so, the only issue is that the current Spider-Man is a part of the MCU and there would be issues to branch off.

Then again I'd rather see them keep this version going than giving us yet ANOTHER reboot of the character in 2 years or whatever. 

[JayOctavarium]

TBH,

I have no interest in Spiderman outside of the MCU. Into The Spiderverse was well done, loved the animation, but I didn't give a damn about the story as it didn't tie into a bigger story I'm following.

[ErHaO]

I think the Raimi movies are by far the best live action version of Spider-Man on the big screen. The MCU ones have been solid and definitely a big improvement over the trash pile that was The Amazing Spider-Man 1 & 2, but in reality Sony hasn't been doing THAT bad. It was similar with Fox for many years, things like "they never made a good X-Men movie" yet Logan, Days of Future Past and X2 were all great. Disney are definitely getting greedy and while a 50/50 split might sound fair to some people, it's still Sony's property. There's probably some blame to be put on both parties but personally I can't say I fault Sony for not giving away 50% of what they own. They're definitely capable of making good Spider-Man movies and have shown so, the only issue is that the current Spider-Man is a part of the MCU and there would be issues to branch off.

Then again I'd rather see them keep this version going than giving us yet ANOTHER reboot of the character in 2 years or whatever. 

I grew up with Raimi Spidey and loved them, but after recently rewatching them about 10 years since I last saw them, I think only 2 is still great (1 is pretty good) and even that one is upper-middle ground MCU in comparison, namely because I just think Toby isn't nearly as great as a lead as most of the current Marvel superheroes and the character arcs are what makes a lot of these films great and relatable. That said, there is still a lot to love and like (even in 3) but keep in mind 2 was 15 years ago and Sony has fucked over many non-Spidey franchises during these 15 years. And in terms of live action Spider-Man stuff, Venom is a heap of trash.

I think Fox was vastly superior over Sony in terms of non-MCU films. I really love 2, First Class, Days of the Future Past and Logan. And some of the others were fairly solid too.

For the first time since god knows how long I am actually really invested in a Spidey story and this happens, it sucks. Because there will be a whole lot of retconning/ignoring major plotlines in the Sony only film.

Don't get me wrong, it is not like I think Disney is some good guy saving my favourite properties, they want money, as is their purpose, and it is probably their fault that this deal crashed. Sony has the rights, obviously. But that doesn't mean I can't fucking hate this happened.

[The Walrus]

Also, to Chad's earlier point about Venom: Venom barely made 200 million in North America. Over $640 million was made in other territories. So if anything, blame the Chinese

[kaos2900]

I'm disappointed BUT i won't be surprised if something gets worked out. Either way this is a way bigger loss for Sony than the MCU. Spider-Man played his purpose in the infinity saga. He's less crucial going forward.

[lordxizor]

There's probably some blame to be put on both parties but personally I can't say I fault Sony for not giving away 50% of what they own.

In fairness Disney was willing to pony up 50% of the cost of making the movie too. They're willing to shoulder half the risk and get half the reward. But I can understand why Sony isn't up for that.

The only reason I see Disney not wanting to repeat the previous agreement (Disney gets the profits from Spider-man in other MCU movies, Sony gets profit from standalone Spider-man movies) is that Disney has no immediate plans for Spider-man to be in any crossover movies. No Avengers movies are on the horizon so Disney has no way to capitalize on the character.

This is a big risk for both sides, but I think it's a bigger risk for Sony. I still think a deal gets done, but I could see Sony doing a Spider-man/Venom crossover outside of the MCU before Spidey rejoins the MCU in another deal. I know studios don't give a crap about continuity and story lines as long as they're making money, but it makes no sense for Sony or for the MCU to have Spider-man outside of the MCU.

[jingle.boy]

The only reason I see Disney not wanting to repeat the previous agreement (Disney gets the profits from Spider-man in other MCU movies, Sony gets profit from standalone Spider-man movies) is that Disney has no immediate plans for Spider-man to be in any crossover movies. No Avengers movies are on the horizon so Disney has no way to capitalize on the character.

That's a great point.  I hadn't considered this.  Fiege has no need for Spidey in any other MCU movies (other than perhaps cameo opportunities) ... certainly none require him in Phase 4.  They did just fine without Spidey up until Civil War, they'll be fine without him going forward.

And Sony will have to re-boot for a 3rd time.   

[The Walrus]

Respectfully, I think that's underselling Spidey a bit. They built him to be Stark's legacy, and I kind of saw him as the lynchpin to the post-Infinity Saga MCU because of that. His character would have a massive reason to partake (or even lead) in the next group of superheroes, in whatever form they might take. I don't know how they do that without Spider-man. Nobody wins here, except Sony, I guess, since they don't care about what the fans love about Spidey 

Feels bad man.

[Adami]

Apparently Marvel went as low as 30%.

I wonder if Sony was willing to budge from the 5% thing at all.

[Zantera]

The deal they had was already beneficial for both and it was a good deal for both (otherwise Disney hadn't been so keen on taking it in the first place). Coming in with a demand that you want 10 times what you just got is insanely greedy and Sony not taking it isn't Sony being bad guys, if the roles were reversed Disney would have laughed at it. Imagine yourself going to work and you tell your boss that you want 10 times what you're making now, you're not gonna get that.

People seem to focus a lot on the 5% which sounds really low but what you're not taking into consideration are other factors like merchandise rights, production cost and the fact that Sony's universe and Marvel's universe feed into each other and both do better. Again, Disney wouldn't have taken the deal in the first place if it wasn't a good deal for them. As for "Sony's not willing to negotiate", i think when someone comes in with an offer so shockingly bad it can result in the other party walking away.