Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[El Barto]

I've watched a fair amount of the Shuttle Pod thing, and for the most part it is interesting. There is plenty of insight into how things work for these people. It does have its issues, though. Neither of them are particularly good interviewers, and Keating is actually quite bad at it. Aside from saying god bless 40 times an episode, he interrupts people, often times with his own anecdotes, and doesn't really let people stay on track. And their limited understanding of the subject matter definitely doesn't do them any favours. Before they decided to embark on this exercise they should have spent a few weeks watching the entire franchise and learning what it's all about. Instead they watch one or two episodes and a few scenes specific to the guests they have.

Since I'm still a ways away from watching ST again, I find this format interesting. If there's another show where they're interviewing these people I'd certainly be interested in it. Thus far I haven't found one that works for me.

I've heard Avery wasn't a lot of fun on set, not bad or anything, just keen to keep it professional.   I'm sure I've heard Dorn say there was a difference between TNG and DS9 in terms of fun too.

This doesn't surprise me. Avery Brooks strikes me as the sort that'd take things far too seriously. We've all heard the stories about how Patrick Stewart began by taking it all too seriously, but learned to lighten up when the rest of the cast took the piss out of him. Avery would probably die on that hill.

[abydos]

It wasn't much but I think this is the best Picard episode out of all the seasons so far. It's probably the first episode I didn't hate and for the most of it, it resembled the characters as I knew them. Still, plenty to disagree and not like but it wasn't offensive, imo.

[Adami]

It wasn't much but I think this is the best Picard episode out of all the seasons so far. It's probably the first episode I didn't hate and for the most of it, it resembled the characters as I knew them. Still, plenty to disagree and not like but it wasn't offensive, imo.

I won't be able to check it out until tomorrow. I know it doesn't seem like it, but I do always go in wanting to like these things. I look for what I can, but I just can't ignore the bad. But I mostly enjoyed the first episode of the season, so I know there's potential.

[chknptpie]

Recently started DS9 from ep1... and woooo its definitely season 1 lol I know better to come.

[Adami]

Recently started DS9 from ep1... and woooo its definitely season 1 lol I know better to come.

Wasn't as bad as I remembered when I rewatched, but definitely gets a lot better. That said one of my top 5 episodes is in season 1.

[soupytwist]

Recently started DS9 from ep1... and woooo its definitely season 1 lol I know better to come.

Wasn't as bad as I remembered when I rewatched, but definitely gets a lot better. That said one of my top 5 episodes is in season 1.

Duet?

[hefdaddy42]

Hey, THAT was a good episode.  For my money, easily the best episode of Picard in any season (not a high bar, but still).

[Adami]

Recently started DS9 from ep1... and woooo its definitely season 1 lol I know better to come.

Wasn't as bad as I remembered when I rewatched, but definitely gets a lot better. That said one of my top 5 episodes is in season 1.

Duet?

Correct!

[Adami]

I don't have the energy to go in depth on what I liked/didn't like cause this season seems well liked enough and I'm glad people are enjoying it.


I didn't hate this episode, but I will say this. Seasons 1 and 2 of Picard were terrible ideas executed terribly. Season 3, thus far, is a mix of decent and good ideas being poorly poorly/mediocrely. Which, technically, makes it a big step up.

[hefdaddy42]

Poor Adami.

[Adami]

Poor Adami.

Hey, I said I didn't hate. I'd call down right meh, which, again, is high praise for a Picard episode. There were some really good moments in here and some even better ideas that I just didn't were handled as well as they could've been. But I enjoyed it and didn't want to strangle a baby while watching it.

[hefdaddy42]

Poor Adami.

Hey, I said I didn't hate. I'd call down right meh, which, again, is high praise for a Picard episode. There were some really good moments in here and some even better ideas that I just didn't were handled as well as they could've been. But I enjoyed it and didn't want to strangle a baby while watching it.

I meant what you said about not wanting to shit on it since other people like it.  Or whatever it was you said lol

[Adami]

Poor Adami.

Hey, I said I didn't hate. I'd call down right meh, which, again, is high praise for a Picard episode. There were some really good moments in here and some even better ideas that I just didn't were handled as well as they could've been. But I enjoyed it and didn't want to strangle a baby while watching it.

I meant what you said about not wanting to shit on it since other people like it.  Or whatever it was you said lol

Ah. Yea. I genuinely don't enjoy not liking things or speaking ill of things. It's Star Trek. I love Star Trek. I want to love Picard. I want people to be happy watching things they enjoy. I feel bad speaking so poorly about Picard, but I'm saying it out of a sense of confusion and upset, rather than bashing. I've done more than enough criticism of it, and none of the criticism I have of this season comes anywhere close to the criticism I had of the first two seasons, so it feels futile.

I just wish the writing wasn't rewarded with the mentality of "I'm just grateful it's not worse." I'd be so embarrassed if I created something that got that response. Ah well.

[soupytwist]

Liked episode 4 a lot.  So glad the Riker Vs Picard thing was dropped straight away, some good tension throughout, didn't mind the way they got out of the situation either.  Captain Shaw and Jack are great additions to the cast, really like both.  Downside was whatever the hell the villain did to make blood villain boss appear, which also seemed to link to the mystery box (ugh!) final scene of Jacks visions in the mirror.

[Polarbear]

I'll echo others, as I also liked EP4 a lot.

I really liked the first scene between Riker and Picard. Where was this well written dialogue in the previous 2 seasons?? I also liked the added depth given to Shaw. He is a deeply damaged character, and not just an asshole for hell of it. He is almost like Anti-Sisko. He is Sisko, if he never moved on from the pain and trauma caused by the events of Wolf 359. I wonder how he managed to get that captain's seat, considering he's mental state.

All round great episode. The end where they all work together to escape the gravity well, is pure Star Trek IMO. There is still time for this ship to sink, but I'm optimistic so far.

SPOILER!




And considering the villains are rogue changelings, I wonder if we get some DS9 cameos later?

[abydos]

I wonder how he managed to get that captain's seat, considering he's mental state.

This is exactly the first thought I had when he started blabbering about it. Which is why I thought his whole reasoning is just terrible writing.

[soupytwist]

I wonder how he managed to get that captain's seat, considering he's mental state.

This is exactly the first thought I had when he started blabbering about it. Which is why I thought his whole reasoning is just terrible writing.

Pretty much all guest Captain's and Admirals on Star Trek are disfunctional megalomaniacs, at least Shaw proved to be a good guy (for now anyway).

[Samsara]

So, I took the plunge and watched the first four episodes of Season Three of Picard.

For background, I watched Season One, and I hated it. I skipped Season Two, I hated Season One so bad. I won't go into spoilers for Season Three, just in case folks here haven't seen it. All I WILL say, is that I like it better than Season One by a mile. That is likely due to...the familiar characters.

But in watching these four episodes over the weekend, I think I nailed down why I just really haven't enjoyed Trek shows since DS9 ended (and a bit of Voyager). Now, hear me out on this. What I am going to say is just my personal opinion, obviously, my take may be very different than yours, or what you watched Trek for back in the day. But it dawned on me that the major reason I haven't gotten into Trek series' is because of the de-emphasis of the utopian society. The warmth. The "we'll get there" attitude that was understatedly inserted into the original series, expertly weaved throughout TNG, and still permeated DS9 and the first couple seasons of Voyager that I watched.

It's really hard to put into words, but along with the cinematography being all dark and cold now, that hope for the future has gone dark as well. I felt Enterprise was very cold and bleak. (And kinda weird to see a ship that in some ways looked more advanced than the TNG 1701-D, given it came before it. LOL.) The feature films, starting with First Contact...same thing. And everything following.

IIRC, Roddenberry had passed before DS9, and obviously before Voyager. But his sense of a utopian future for humankind kept going for a bit. It really has, at least for me, gone missing. And that was really the underpinning of why Trek worked, at least for me. It may not be... "realistic" in the sense of what we understand to be "the real world" and how things likely would happen, but it didn't need to be. It was science fiction. The stuff now, it feels like there's an emphasis to make it feel like reality, and with that, came the darkness and cold. Less warmth. And for me, it really has impacted my enjoyment of Trek.

Just watching Picard Season Three, it really struck me that was missing (You'd figure I would have noticed by now). Anyway, the season so far is good. Not great, but good. I could live without the pointless swearing, and some of the forced jokes. But I definitely think the season is much, much better than season one so far.

[soupytwist]

So, I took the plunge and watched the first four episodes of Season Three of Picard.

For background, I watched Season One, and I hated it. I skipped Season Two, I hated Season One so bad. I won't go into spoilers for Season Three, just in case folks here haven't seen it. All I WILL say, is that I like it better than Season One by a mile. That is likely due to...the familiar characters.

But in watching these four episodes over the weekend, I think I nailed down why I just really haven't enjoyed Trek shows since DS9 ended (and a bit of Voyager). Now, hear me out on this. What I am going to say is just my personal opinion, obviously, my take may be very different than yours, or what you watched Trek for back in the day. But it dawned on me that the major reason I haven't gotten into Trek series' is because of the de-emphasis of the utopian society. The warmth. The "we'll get there" attitude that was understatedly inserted into the original series, expertly weaved throughout TNG, and still permeated DS9 and the first couple seasons of Voyager that I watched.

It's really hard to put into words, but along with the cinematography being all dark and cold now, that hope for the future has gone dark as well. I felt Enterprise was very cold and bleak. (And kinda weird to see a ship that in some ways looked more advanced than the TNG 1701-D, given it came before it. LOL.) The feature films, starting with First Contact...same thing. And everything following.

IIRC, Roddenberry had passed before DS9, and obviously before Voyager. But his sense of a utopian future for humankind kept going for a bit. It really has, at least for me, gone missing. And that was really the underpinning of why Trek worked, at least for me. It may not be... "realistic" in the sense of what we understand to be "the real world" and how things likely would happen, but it didn't need to be. It was science fiction. The stuff now, it feels like there's an emphasis to make it feel like reality, and with that, came the darkness and cold. Less warmth. And for me, it really has impacted my enjoyment of Trek.

Just watching Picard Season Three, it really struck me that was missing (You'd figure I would have noticed by now). Anyway, the season so far is good. Not great, but good. I could live without the pointless swearing, and some of the forced jokes. But I definitely think the season is much, much better than season one so far.

The problem with Roddenberry's Trek (which is ToS though to TNG season 2) is the women were either fluff or terribly written.

[Samsara]

The problem with Roddenberry's Trek (which is ToS though to TNG season 2) is the women were either fluff or terribly written.

Well, yeah. But you're honing in on one specific aspect. I'm talking as a whole. Yes, some changes have been for the better. But the overall warmth/utopian vibe has been missing, and that's what I've identified, for me, as a major reason for not being as enthusiastic about the franchise since the late 1990s.

[El Barto]

So, I took the plunge and watched the first four episodes of Season Three of Picard.

For background, I watched Season One, and I hated it. I skipped Season Two, I hated Season One so bad. I won't go into spoilers for Season Three, just in case folks here haven't seen it. All I WILL say, is that I like it better than Season One by a mile. That is likely due to...the familiar characters.

But in watching these four episodes over the weekend, I think I nailed down why I just really haven't enjoyed Trek shows since DS9 ended (and a bit of Voyager). Now, hear me out on this. What I am going to say is just my personal opinion, obviously, my take may be very different than yours, or what you watched Trek for back in the day. But it dawned on me that the major reason I haven't gotten into Trek series' is because of the de-emphasis of the utopian society. The warmth. The "we'll get there" attitude that was understatedly inserted into the original series, expertly weaved throughout TNG, and still permeated DS9 and the first couple seasons of Voyager that I watched.

It's really hard to put into words, but along with the cinematography being all dark and cold now, that hope for the future has gone dark as well. I felt Enterprise was very cold and bleak. (And kinda weird to see a ship that in some ways looked more advanced than the TNG 1701-D, given it came before it. LOL.) The feature films, starting with First Contact...same thing. And everything following.

IIRC, Roddenberry had passed before DS9, and obviously before Voyager. But his sense of a utopian future for humankind kept going for a bit. It really has, at least for me, gone missing. And that was really the underpinning of why Trek worked, at least for me. It may not be... "realistic" in the sense of what we understand to be "the real world" and how things likely would happen, but it didn't need to be. It was science fiction. The stuff now, it feels like there's an emphasis to make it feel like reality, and with that, came the darkness and cold. Less warmth. And for me, it really has impacted my enjoyment of Trek.

Just watching Picard Season Three, it really struck me that was missing (You'd figure I would have noticed by now). Anyway, the season so far is good. Not great, but good. I could live without the pointless swearing, and some of the forced jokes. But I definitely think the season is much, much better than season one so far.

I certainly agree with your greater point. The ST universe has been increasingly darker to match the interests of the modern audience. Not to mention a certain amount of jingoism (much of it might as well just be 24 in space). I think the problem is that there needed to be a balance between Roddenberry's altruistic, albeit horny notions about our future, and the conflict the writers were so keen to introduce. You can compare TNG S1 and ENT S3 for the ends of the spectrum. TNG S1 was boring because the humans were boring. They were lifeless paragons trying to be wonderful in a cruel universe. When Roddenberry was forced out they started phasing in some conflict while still keeping the lofty ideals. This was when ST was at its finest. Eventually that stopped selling, and more modern writers wanted to focus on conflict above all else.

On the bright side, at least SNW seems to get this.   

[Samsara]

TNG S1 was boring because the humans were boring. They were lifeless paragons trying to be wonderful in a cruel universe. When Roddenberry was forced out they started phasing in some conflict while still keeping the lofty ideals. This was when ST was at its finest. Eventually that stopped selling, and more modern writers wanted to focus on conflict above all else.

Great way to put it, and glad you got my overall point. I saw the ads for SNW. Not sure I want to jump in. But yeah, the modernization of it all has taken away from ST's charm.

[El Barto]

TNG S1 was boring because the humans were boring. They were lifeless paragons trying to be wonderful in a cruel universe. When Roddenberry was forced out they started phasing in some conflict while still keeping the lofty ideals. This was when ST was at its finest. Eventually that stopped selling, and more modern writers wanted to focus on conflict above all else.

Great way to put it, and glad you got my overall point. I saw the ads for SNW. Not sure I want to jump in. But yeah, the modernization of it all has taken away from ST's charm.

SNW is far from perfect, but it actually does keep most of the enlightenment and optimism from the original shows. It's the first thing they've done in a while where it seems like the Federation wouldn't be a bad place to live, rather than the most dystopian parts of modern America which seems to be the milieu of modern Trek.

[hefdaddy42]

The condition you are describing is definitely the biggest downfall of Picard for me, Samsara.

[chknptpie]

TNG S1 was boring because the humans were boring. They were lifeless paragons trying to be wonderful in a cruel universe. When Roddenberry was forced out they started phasing in some conflict while still keeping the lofty ideals. This was when ST was at its finest. Eventually that stopped selling, and more modern writers wanted to focus on conflict above all else.

Great way to put it, and glad you got my overall point. I saw the ads for SNW. Not sure I want to jump in. But yeah, the modernization of it all has taken away from ST's charm.

Out of all the new trek, SNW is by far the best in my mind.

[soupytwist]

One of the reason the first two seasons of TNG are rough is because of the constant preaching of their Undeniable Moral Superiority which feels handed out with the uniform.  Picard is pretty awful to begin with, more like a walking/talking rulebook with limited social skills, it also doesn't help those early episodes are so dry and generally lacking charm or humour, thankfully they mostly turned it around. 
But the reason I love DS9 the most is that it's was willing to use shades of grey in its storytelling. 

[El Barto]

One of the reason the first two seasons of TNG are rough is because of the constant preaching of their Undeniable Moral Superiority which feels handed out with the uniform.  Picard is pretty awful to begin with, more like a walking/talking rulebook with limited social skills, it also doesn't help those early episodes are so dry and generally lacking charm or humour, thankfully they mostly turned it around. 
But the reason I love DS9 the most is that it's was willing to use shades of grey in its storytelling.

The UMS is pure Roddenberry. "Mankind has evolved beyond all of you primitive sleazeballs." The guy was both a blessing and a curse. I'm grateful that he invented the thing, but he was a real menace. The writers needed conflict to actually write good stories, but it simply didn't exist in his world. Subsequently the first couple of seasons were mostly a power struggle with everybody losing. When they finally promoted Roddenberry out of the way they were able to write better stuff, which is how we wound up with Q Who and Best of Both Worlds. And Thankfully these guys were good enough to combine the two worlds;. Roddenberry's UMS and interesting, conflict driven stories. This carried right on over to DS9 and VOY, where the human crew were always morally superior, but far, far less interesting than the aliens who represented actual humanity.

Sadly, the times changed, and all we can have now is the constant conflict and conspiracy of 2023 America. That's what sells.

[Dream Team]

Samsara & CO. have nailed it with the above posts. Just to add, wasn't there a writers' strike going on during the beginning of TNG? That would help explain some of the bad episodes too.

[Adami]

I agree with just about everything above. It also feels like in modern Trek (SNW aside) the Federation is some minor insignificant thing that is struggling to maintain any sense of relevance.


I'm just reminded of a philosophy that I can't remember the source of. Don't give the people what they want, give them what they need. I feel like modern Trek is just chasing trends and trying to give audiences exactly what they want. It's unfortunate.

[Samsara]

The condition you are describing is definitely the biggest downfall of Picard for me, Samsara.

I'm glad you and others (I saw your replies DT, Adami, etc.) understood what I was getting at. It was an epiphany for me. I'm actually laughing at myself for not identifying the cause of my recent...dislike of Trek shows, particularly after being a hardcore Trekker when it came to TNG and DS9.

[abydos]

That has been the main problem people have been having with modern ST. Even the movies aren't as bad as the shows in that regard.

There's a reason why people brushed off weak points of shows like The Orville, as even when it wasn't good, it had a good core base and it was sincere about it (to me SNW seems a bit of a forced, as if writers who don't understand the core material try to mimick it as best as they can). Wish more people gave it a chance so it could continue stronger than it did.

[Orbert]

I finally watched Picard episode 4.  It wasn't horrible.  Some cool ideas, and some not so cool.  Some of the execution was actually pretty good, but as usual a lot of it was kinda clunky.

[Adami]

I finally watched Picard episode 4.  It wasn't horrible.  Some cool ideas, and some not so cool.  Some of the execution was actually pretty good, but as usual a lot of it was kinda clunky.

This sums up my view so much better than I did haha.

[Orbert]

After watching the TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror" a dozen or more times over the years, someone pointed out something I'd never noticed before.



In the mirror universe, Spock and Kirk each have a personal bodyguard.  Spock's is the Vulcan, obviously, and he's watching Kirk.  Kirk's bodyguard is watching Spock.  I never noticed that before.

Also, "mirror Kirk" in the brig of the prime Enterprise is yelling a bunch of stuff, including "Where's my personal guard?"

[Adami]

After watching the TOS episode "Mirror, Mirror" a dozen or more times over the years, someone pointed out something I'd never noticed before.



In the mirror universe, Spock and Kirk each have a personal bodyguard.  Spock's is the Vulcan, obviously, and he's watching Kirk.  Kirk's bodyguard is watching Spock.  I never noticed that before.

Also, "mirror Kirk" in the brig of the prime Enterprise is yelling a bunch of stuff, including "Where's my personal guard?"

Ohhh, that's a good catch! I didn't notice that. Nice little detail.