Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[gmillerdrake]

I think I’m 2 or 3 episodes behind now on Picard. Maybe I’ll let them build up and just binge it all one night

[Adami]

I think I’m 2 or 3 episodes behind now on Picard. Maybe I’ll let them build up and just binge it all one night

I think I'll do something similar at some point. I'm enjoying the break and watching it all at once is a bit easier to swallow.

And I'm only doing this cause bringing the TNG crew back is enough for me to at least try season 3. It's a weakness, I know.

Though the little teaser showing Picard and Riker in what looks to be an almost shoot out doesn't give me much hope.

[gmillerdrake]

I think I'll do something similar at some point. I'm enjoying the break and watching it all at once is a bit easier to swallow.

And I'm only doing this cause bringing the TNG crew back is enough for me to at least try season 3. It's a weakness, I know.

My sentiments exactly.

[soupytwist]

I think that when the team eventually jumps back to their correct time, Rios will elect to stay behind.

I'm thinking that too.  That'll annoy me if so, firstly because I like the character and secondly why do they keep losing/swapping the crew on these New Trek shows? 

[Adami]

I think that when the team eventually jumps back to their correct time, Rios will elect to stay behind.

I'm thinking that too.  That'll annoy me if so, firstly because I like the character and secondly why do they keep losing/swapping the crew on these New Trek shows?

Do they? I ask and then realize that I have no idea who 90% of the Discovery crew is. So it's possible they have a mostly new crew every season and I didn't notice. 

[Orbert]

It seemed like Discovery was constantly killing off characters and bringing in new ones, and sometimes bringing back ones you thought were dead or just written off.  Landry, Lorca, Georgiou, Airiam... and then of course when we leapt into the 34th century (or whatever TF it is now) anyone we didn't take with us was written off.  Tyler, Sarek, etc.

But we barely even met the bridge crew until the second season; I don't think most people knew most of their names.  I still don't know all their names.

[soupytwist]

It seemed like Discovery was constantly killing off characters and bringing in new ones, and sometimes bringing back ones you thought were dead or just written off.  Landry, Lorca, Georgiou, Airiam... and then of course when we leapt into the 34th century (or whatever TF it is now) anyone we didn't take with us was written off.  Tyler, Sarek, etc.

But we barely even met the bridge crew until the second season; I don't think most people knew most of their names.  I still don't know all their names.

Didn't Tilly leave in season 4 too?

[Orbert]

Well, she left the ship, but they found ways to keep her in most of the remaining episodes after that.  Also, I realized that I could probably go through the list and name another half dozen or so people, but the ones I named were all off the top of my head.  Nahn was another who was regular cast for a while, left, then they brought her back for one or two episodes.

In a way, I think it's actually kinda cool and different.  They wanted to do something really different with this show, and in a more "realistic" setting (given that this is science fiction), crew members would indeed come and go, and die from time to time if the adventures have any real stakes.  It makes more sense than going seven years and the same five or so people are always there and always have been, protected by plot armor.

[abydos]

Jaded Guinen makes 0 sense. I do enjoy the trainwreck aspect of Picard, though.

[gmillerdrake]

My largest issue with Discovery is......and forgive me for going here with this terminology but it's the only way to describe it.....is that the show just went WAY too 'woke'. I get the desire to bring attention to cultural issues and what not and understand shows do that stuff....no problems with that at all. But Discovery doesn't take a breath when it comes to it. It's non stop...over the top and it does affect the writing when they're consistently constrained by the mandate of working in this or that 'woke' talking point.

Anyway.....seasons 3 and 4 were laughable with a decent episode sprinkled in here and there. But I'll be a sucker and watch S5 just because I want to see how Michael saves the universe again.

[Adami]

Hey now, there's nothing WOKE about making Stacey Abrams the president of the god damn planet. 

[soupytwist]

Hey now, there's nothing WOKE about making Stacey Abrams the president of the god damn planet. 

Makes me laugh when people say new trek is woke.  I mean Trek has always been woke, that's a big part of it's DNA!

[Adami]

I often really do think we just watch Star Trek so differently.

[soupytwist]

I often really do think we just watch Star Trek so differently.

It all depends if you think of 'woke' as some derogatory term, or you see it as being actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and general social justice).  The latter applies to Trek.  The former is just a modern form of trolling by angry people who seem to spend way to much time hating things.

[gmillerdrake]

I often really do think we just watch Star Trek so differently.

It all depends if you think of 'woke' as some derogatory term, or you see it as being actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and general social justice).  The latter applies to Trek.  The former is just a modern form of trolling by angry people who seem to spend way to much time hating things.

Since I used the term I’ll address this. As I mentioned……I agree that shows are a good platform to address social issues, especially when they’re well done.

Discovery however is extremely over the top with the level to which it goes to incorporate these things into the show. To the point of the story/show suffers for it. Since this isn’t P/R I’ll leave it at that.

[soupytwist]

I often really do think we just watch Star Trek so differently.

It all depends if you think of 'woke' as some derogatory term, or you see it as being actively attentive to important facts and issues (especially issues of racial and general social justice).  The latter applies to Trek.  The former is just a modern form of trolling by angry people who seem to spend way to much time hating things.

Since I used the term I’ll address this. As I mentioned……I agree that shows are a good platform to address social issues, especially when they’re well done.

Discovery however is extremely over the top with the level to which it goes to incorporate these things into the show. To the point of the story/show suffers for it. Since this isn’t P/R I’ll leave it at that.

Just to be clear I wasn't banding you, Adami or anyone else who contributed to this thread as 'one of those'.  You are critical of the shows in sensible ways that I sometimes agree with!  Please forgive me if you thought I was aiming that at you guys.

I do think in general Trek has a history of being a solid and sometimes ground breaking show in terms of social issues, and I wouldn't want it to drop that aspect. 

[Adami]

I was agreeing with Gary's criticism of how it's being handled, now that they're doing it. One of my main draws to trek is their social commentary. It's just that Discovery and Picard do a very VERY bad job at it.

[soupytwist]

I was agreeing with Gary's criticism of how it's being handled, now that they're doing it. One of my main draws to trek is their social commentary. It's just that Discovery and Picard do a very VERY bad job at it.

The biggest problem with Disco for me is Burnham simply isn't a compelling character, yet each season they try and change her character and double down on making her the centre of the show (not seen Season 4, so dunno if that continued?). 

There is also an inconsistent tone in the writing across a season which stands out a lot more on a continuous arc (Picard season 2 is really suffering with this!).

Did you finish you TNG rewatch?

[Adami]

I did! Just over the last weekend. Last season isn't nearly as bad as it's described, though the bad episodes are REALLY bad. The final episode is just something else, so fantastic.

Then after watching DS9 season 3 alone for a bit, watched Generations. You know...it's a pretty dumb plot, but the characters really deliver and more than make up for what is just...yea....not a good plot.

Now I'm on DS9 season 3 and just started Voyager. So I'll keep on that for a while.

[abydos]

ST may always have been "woke" but for the most part, it was done in a less cartoony way. It had more depth to it when illustrating their points and they didn't base their starting point in an example that is dictated by a 24h news cycle. Or at least rarely did. Take Picard for example and the whole plot about ICE and illegals. Cartoony evil white guy - dem ICE agents really go there just cos they hate immigrants.

They try to tackle big problems and their examples are shallow and will be irrelevant within a few months or years. It's like they're presenting us with children's understanding of complex issues. And they don't even point out any solutions, they're just pointing things out - environment bad, immigration bad, racism bad, sexism bad. Things are bad. All their points would fall apart and be irrelevant if they just went to Sweden or Norway for example, instead of that one section of LA. What happens in some parts of the US does not apply to the rest of the damn world lol. It doesn't even apply to all of America.

[gmillerdrake]

ST may always have been "woke" but for the most part, it was done in a less cartoony way. It had more depth to it when illustrating their points and they didn't base their starting point in an example that is dictated by a 24h news cycle. Or at least rarely did. Take Picard for example and the whole plot about ICE and illegals. Cartoony evil white guy - dem ICE agents really go there just cos they hate immigrants.

They try to tackle big problems and their examples are shallow and will be irrelevant within a few months or years. It's like they're presenting us with children's understanding of complex issues. And they don't even point out any solutions, they're just pointing things out - environment bad, immigration bad, racism bad, sexism bad. Things are bad. All their points would fall apart and be irrelevant if they just went to Sweden or Norway for example, instead of that one section of LA. What happens in some parts of the US does not apply to the rest of the damn world lol. It doesn't even apply to all of America.

Not to mention they won't allow a straight, caucasian man to step foot on the bridge of Discovery (or actually anywhere on that ship). Although the last time they did (Cpt. Pike) it was by far the most interesting and well written character the show has seen (outside of Philippa Georgiou)

I'm down with depicting diversity and/or showing that women can do everything a man can do and all that.....but they've diversified themselves right out of an interesting or compelling storyline IMO.

[DoctorAction]

Not to mention they won't allow a straight, caucasian man to step foot on the bridge of Discovery (or actually anywhere on that ship). Although the last time they did (Cpt. Pike) it was by far the most interesting and well written character the show has seen (outside of Philippa Georgiou)

I'm down with depicting diversity and/or showing that women can do everything a man can do and all that.....but they've diversified themselves right out of an interesting or compelling storyline IMO.

Lorca was male and white as well. So that's two.

Georgiou could have been interesting, as it was a fun twist to bring her bad version back from the mirror verse, but they just left her as a pantomime baddie.

But the storyline and diversity have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

Disco sucks, imo, and the social politics is very heavy-handed, but the problem is that they can't produce characters and stories that are convincing, engaging, exciting and moving, not that there's too many women on the bridge.

[soupytwist]

My review of episode 7.....huh?  Oh hi Baltar.

[soupytwist]

Three of my favourite franchises (Star Trek, Marvel and Doctor Who) all produced absolutely shite, badly written episodes this week. 

At least Trek has SNW coming.  Moonknight is a rare Marvel dud (and it's still got 3 episodes to get better).  And Doctor Who is one episode away from getting rid of current (and dreadful) showrunner Chris Chibnel. 
 

[soupytwist]

Ok.  So we are on episode 9 of Picard now and it's...................utter shit.  I defended Season 1, but this, this is now just awful - the writers are just making stuff up on the fly now, with no internal logic or continuity, episode 9 honestly made me angry.   

[Adami]

Ok.  So we are on episode 9 of Picard now and it's...................utter shit.  I defended Season 1, but this, this is now just awful - the writers are just making stuff up on the fly now, with no internal logic or continuity, episode 9 honestly made me angry.

Super excited about binging it in the background before season 3 comes out haha.

On another note, about to finish season 1 of Voyager and season 3 of DS9.

I keep forgetting just how good the DS9 characters are. And while Voyager has it's very meh episodes and bland characters (such as Kim), it has some great moments and episodes. Honestly, as much as everyone hates Neelix, I think I'm more anti-Kes. I just am not even sure what they're going for with her and she's boring as all hell. Neelix isn't great, and I know he gets worse, but he still has some good moments and the actor is much better than Jennifer.

[gmillerdrake]

Ok.  So we are on episode 9 of Picard now and it's...................utter shit.  I defended Season 1, but this, this is now just awful - the writers are just making stuff up on the fly now, with no internal logic or continuity, episode 9 honestly made me angry.

Super excited about binging it in the background before season 3 comes out haha.

Last episode I watched was the third one I think?? When he met the young Guinan. It's just so bad...I couldn't take wasting the time on it. I'll probably do what Adami mentioned and binge it before S3 since I at least want to see what the do to ruin the remainder of the original characters from TNG

[Adami]

On the last episode of season 1 of Voyager and I think Roxanne Dawson needs some awards for delivering the line “get the cheese to sickbay” without laughing.

[soupytwist]

Ok.  So we are on episode 9 of Picard now and it's...................utter shit.  I defended Season 1, but this, this is now just awful - the writers are just making stuff up on the fly now, with no internal logic or continuity, episode 9 honestly made me angry.

Super excited about binging it in the background before season 3 comes out haha.

On another note, about to finish season 1 of Voyager and season 3 of DS9.

I keep forgetting just how good the DS9 characters are. And while Voyager has it's very meh episodes and bland characters (such as Kim), it has some great moments and episodes. Honestly, as much as everyone hates Neelix, I think I'm more anti-Kes. I just am not even sure what they're going for with her and she's boring as all hell. Neelix isn't great, and I know he gets worse, but he still has some good moments and the actor is much better than Jennifer.

If I did a list of worse main Trek characters from TNG to Enterprise period Neelix, Kes and Chakoty would honestly fill the top three slots.

[Adami]

Chakotay, hmm. I think the writers really missed the mark on bringing in his spirtuality and stuff, but I don't mind the character. I think they just didn't really give him much of an edge. When they DID, he was great. And he had great moments.

Kes? Totally. Pointless character. Neelix mostly as well, but he had a good moment here and there.

[El Barto]

Kes was a great idea on paper, but was just poorly executed. And honestly that's on the writers and not Lien. Saddling her with Neelix was dumb (and a little creepy). More importantly, they generally ignored the one thing that would make her interesting. She could have been the requisite observer of the human condition as seen from a teenager all the way to an elder. That might have been interesting.

[Adami]

Kes was a great idea on paper, but was just poorly executed. And honestly that's on the writers and not Lien. Saddling her with Neelix was dumb (and a little creepy). More importantly, they generally ignored the one thing that would make her interesting. She could have been the requisite observer of the human condition as seen from a teenager all the way to an elder. That might have been interesting.

Fair, but I also think Lien didn't know how to play what they wrote, similar to how Wheaton didn't know how to play most of what they wrote for Wesley. Both can be fine actors, but the writing and acting let the character down.

Your point about her aging is actually good and I think that would have been a super cool idea.

[ZirconBlue]

Chakotay, hmm. I think the writers really missed the mark on bringing in his spirtuality and stuff, but I don't mind the character.

Unfortunately, they hired a fraud Native American consultant for the show.

[Adami]

Chakotay, hmm. I think the writers really missed the mark on bringing in his spirtuality and stuff, but I don't mind the character.

Unfortunately, they hired a fraud Native American consultant for the show.

I think I read that. It did come off as really.......50's TV written by an old white man. Sad, cause it could've been cool.

[DoctorAction]

On the last episode of season 1 of Voyager and I think Roxanne Dawson needs some awards for delivering the line “get the cheese to sickbay” without laughing.

Nice. I remember that line.