Star Trek: Thread Space 9

[Adami]

If you guys had to choose would you rather get a DS9 post as series movie or Voyager post series movie?

DS9, at least they can go back to the station for some reason.

What would the voyager people do? What would possibly bring them together that wasn't forced?

[El Barto]

I never really got that from DS9. With one exception they wrapped up everything, and that exception was entirely Avery Brooks's doing. The Sisko dies and becomes a profit. End of story. He wanted the ambiguity so it wouldn't be just another story where a black man abandons his family. I think it's a bad move, but whatever. From my perspective the guy's dead and buried, thus concluding the show.

I disagree. Sisko does not die. That's more of a literal interpretation of him falling to his pit and going to "heaven" with the prophets, and I don't think it is the correct one. He has spent time with the prophets before. He was saved by them, and is WITH them, to return when the time is right (which he tells Kasidy. And again, the baseball is on the desk. It's pretty clear to me that he's not gone permanently. I understand Avery Brooks not wanting it seem like a black man is abandoning his family. I think he was right to want that. But I think saying the "guy's dead and buried" misses the overall point about the Prophets and Sisko's tie to them. They saved him, he saved them, and he'll be back. It's all very clear to me. But that's the beauty of episodes like this, right? We all take it in different ways.

I'm looking at it from the standpoint of what the writers intended, and not based on the tacked-on ambiguity that was forced upon them. And it is ambiguous. He pops up and says maybe I'll be back someday. What, do we think he's going to return from being a Prophet and settle down with his family in his custom built home on Bajor? The Prophets told him he'd find no peace on Bajor, and he wouldn't spend his life with Cassidy. I think that pretty much covers it, occasional poltergeisting aside.

[Samsara]

I'm looking at it from the standpoint of what the writers intended, and not based on the tacked-on ambiguity that was forced upon them. And it is ambiguous. He pops up and says maybe I'll be back someday. What, do we think he's going to return from being a Prophet and settle down with his family in his custom built home on Bajor? The Prophets told him he'd find no peace on Bajor, and he wouldn't spend his life with Cassidy. I think that pretty much covers it, occasional poltergeisting aside.

No, he actually says he WILL be back. I just watched it. 

Again, we simply disagree, but that correction is vital to my point. He makes a concerted effort to say he will be back, and all the normal signs (the baseball, etc.) all show that. It's just a matter of when. They said he would not find peace on Bajor. That doesn't mean he won't find peace somewhere else in the corporeal world. You keep talking about what the writers intended, which to be honest, I haven't watched the documentary yet, and haven't read what the writers said they wanted. But I'm going by what Sisko himself said, and the signs all through the end of the episode to indicate Sisko is NOT permanently gone.

And El B -- I don't know you well, so don't take any of this as me being fired up or whatnot. No disrespect or antagonizing intended. We just disagree on that point is all.

[El Barto]

And El B -- I don't know you well, so don't take any of this as me being fired up or whatnot. No disrespect or antagonizing intended. We just disagree on that point is all.

It's Star Trek. We're supposed to disagree vehemently and spend years debating tiny details. 

If I were to go with what  Sisko said and not what the intended ending was, then I have to move strongly into Hef's camp that the final episode sucked. Him going off temporarily to be with the Prophets, only to return at some later point just doesn't make any sense. It's a corny ending that doesn't jibe with everything else we've seen from the show, and honestly makes no sense. Also, I've seen the baseball brought up a couple of times, and that doesn't make sense, either. He's non-corporial. Where would he put it? Do they have shelves for knickknacks in the celestial temple? Will he have his own room? A cubicle? Will he carry it around for the rest of time, like Marley's chains?

Something else that never really sat well with me is that he appears in a vision to Cassidy to tell her he'll be gone indefinitely, but why not Jake? He's got this awesome bond with his kid and he's only known Cassidey for what, 3 years? "By the way, tell Jake I said "see ya." That never really seemed right to me. 

[hefdaddy42]

If I were to go with what  Sisko said and not what the intended ending was, then I have to move strongly into Hef's camp that the final episode sucked. 

Well, we don't have the intended ending, whatever that may be.  We only have the ending.  All that happened is what happened on screen. 

So yeah, IMO it kind of sucked.  Which was a real shame, because I enjoyed the hell out of most of the rest of the series.

[ReaperKK]

And El B -- I don't know you well, so don't take any of this as me being fired up or whatnot. No disrespect or antagonizing intended. We just disagree on that point is all.

It's Star Trek. We're supposed to disagree vehemently and spend years debating tiny details. 

If I were to go with what  Sisko said and not what the intended ending was, then I have to move strongly into Hef's camp that the final episode sucked. Him going off temporarily to be with the Prophets, only to return at some later point just doesn't make any sense. It's a corny ending that doesn't jibe with everything else we've seen from the show, and honestly makes no sense. Also, I've seen the baseball brought up a couple of times, and that doesn't make sense, either. He's non-corporial. Where would he put it? Do they have shelves for knickknacks in the celestial temple? Will he have his own room? A cubicle? Will he carry it around for the rest of time, like Marley's chains?

Something else that never really sat well with me is that he appears in a vision to Cassidy to tell her he'll be gone indefinitely, but why not Jake? He's got this awesome bond with his kid and he's only known Cassidey for what, 3 years? "By the way, tell Jake I said "see ya." That never really seemed right to me. 

I liked the ending of DS9 but the Jake thing did bother me a bit. Ben and Jake had an amzing relationship for the entire run of the show, I just head cannon that Ben came to him in another vision.

[Samsara]

Finally got around to watching the What We Left Behind documentary. I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, I LOVED the writer's room. That whole "this is how Season 8, starting today would be" feature, running throughout the doc, was brilliant. Really intrigued by where it would go from there. I don't remember how much folks talked about that here, so I'll stay vague, but I guess since this is the DS9 writing team (for the most part), that's probably as close to canon as we'll get. A shame we won't get to see it...but at least, if you take it as canon, we have an answer as to Sisko.

I also really loved the segments with all the actors, and then the parts that talked about Avery Brooks' intensity, particularly in the episode that took place in the 50s when they were all writers. I enjoy and appreciate Avery really taking responsibility for setting a tone for African-Americans, and how important it was to him to portray "what should be." And the fact that Cirroc Lofton and Avery Brooks still maintain a father-son like relationship today was heartwarming.

On the other hand, some of the social agenda pushing from Ira Behr was overwhelming. Ira is Ira, and we know Trek tackles issues. But I felt the heavy emphasis he put on some issues in the documentary really took away from celebrating the show. Celebrate DS9. Don't use it (the doc) as a platform to continue pushing stuff down peoples' throats. I felt a couple of the deleted scenes should have been added and the social issue scene (in the cutting room) and some of the conversation could have been relegated to deleted scenes. I'm not passing judgement on the issues. Just think that a doc on DS9 would have been better if things like the writer's room were expanded, and the social stuff left on the back burner.

I also thought the opening and closing "songs" were unnecessary and corny. 

Overall, I give the documentary a "B." It wasn't great, it wasn't bad, it was decent.

It was hard watching Aron Eisenberg. You could tell how much he loved the show. How much they all did. But particularly Aron. May he rest in peace. And hey, according to the writers, Nog is captain of the Defiant. Can't think of a better way to celebrate his character, and Aron's life.

On to the extended book universe (post last episode of DS9) for me. Reading The Never Ending Sacrifice first though -- a novel that tells the story of what happened to Rugal, the Cardassian boy who was living on Bajor, who Sisko sent back with his Cardassian father to Cardassia. GREAT read so far.

[ReaperKK]

I watched the What WE Left Behind Documentary again a little bit ago and it just seemed so scattered. They talk about what season 8 would look like, then they are talking about social commentary, then there is the HD footage out of no where, some singing thrown in. It just lacked focus.

[Adami]

Odo has left us and rejoined the great link.

RIP Rene Auberjonois

 

[King Postwhore]

Well said Adami.

[ReaperKK]

Wow, he passed away? First Aron and now Rene, that's terrible news.

[El Barto]

That's a damn shame.

He was in a ton of stuff. One of those guys that was always popping up, and was a regular on several series. Aside from DS9, Boston Legal, and Benson (and probably one or two other series I'm forgetting about), he guested all over the place. He was the first Father Francis Mulcahey. I recall a great turn as a coward on an episode of Bah Bah Blacksheep. And of course he was Colonel West.

[ProfessorPeart]

Man, this one really sucks. Odo is my favorite regular character on DS9 outside of Garek.

I am also a huge fan of Warehouse 13 and his recurring character of Hugo Miller was so quirky and the antithesis of Odo. The man had range and was great in everything he did.

[Polarbear]

RIP Rene!

Aside from playing my favorite DS9 character, he was truly a powerhouse actor with a lot under his belt!

[soupytwist]

Don't know Rene's work outside of Star Trek.   But he was really great in DS9, the pathos and dignity he showed in the role really brought the character of Odo to life.

RIP.

[Samsara]

RIP Rene. When I saw the news last night, I hadn't realized he was 79.

Nice post, Adami.

[El Barto]

So in that documentary where the writers brainstorm a season 8, do they discuss the part where Rom get's thrown off the roof of a very tall building? The Ferengi aren't exactly known for being discrete or forgiving, and Rom's going back to fundamentally change their culture to one that apes the hu-mon's "enlightenment." Zek might have been able to pull it off. He was old and respected. Rom's a young idiot that nobody's ever heard of. He wouldn't last a week. Hell, Rom himself set out to assassinate Grand Nagus Quark, and that was over something trivial.

Some of these little details are interesting to me. Like how much does it suck to be the Breen at the end of the war? How many centuries does it take to shake off the stigma of being those guys that jumped in at the very end hoping to be on the winning side? The Kardassians are sympathetic here. The Breen are just a bunch of dicks.

[Adami]

So in that documentary where the writers brainstorm a season 8, do they discuss the part where Rom get's thrown off the roof of a very tall building? The Ferengi aren't exactly known for being discrete or forgiving, and Rom's going back to fundamentally change their culture to one that apes the hu-mon's "enlightenment." Zek might have been able to pull it off. He was old and respected. Rom's a young idiot that nobody's ever heard of. He wouldn't last a week. Hell, Rom himself set out to assassinate Grand Nagus Quark, and that was over something trivial.

Some of these little details are interesting to me. Like how much does it suck to be the Breen at the end of the war? How many centuries does it take to shake off the stigma of being those guys that jumped in at the very end hoping to be on the winning side? The Kardassians are sympathetic here. The Breen are just a bunch of dicks.

Nope, didn't cover any of that at all.

I actually wasn't too fond of the writers room because you had some FANTASTIC people in there who basically got sidelined by Ira and I think 1-2 others who essentially did the whole thing while people like Ron Moore just watched.

[El Barto]

So in that documentary where the writers brainstorm a season 8, do they discuss the part where Rom get's thrown off the roof of a very tall building? The Ferengi aren't exactly known for being discrete or forgiving, and Rom's going back to fundamentally change their culture to one that apes the hu-mon's "enlightenment." Zek might have been able to pull it off. He was old and respected. Rom's a young idiot that nobody's ever heard of. He wouldn't last a week. Hell, Rom himself set out to assassinate Grand Nagus Quark, and that was over something trivial.

Some of these little details are interesting to me. Like how much does it suck to be the Breen at the end of the war? How many centuries does it take to shake off the stigma of being those guys that jumped in at the very end hoping to be on the winning side? The Kardassians are sympathetic here. The Breen are just a bunch of dicks.

Nope, didn't cover any of that at all.

I was being facetious. I just figured while watching WYLB that he was going to be one of those characters with a tragic outcome that gets overlooked.

And the more I think about it the more that part of the conclusion bugs me. It's supposed to be a good thing that the Ferengi adopt the ways of the all-mighty federation? Just another nod to the smug superiority of the hu-mons, really.

And Ira has always struck me as an attention whore. We should all be eternally grateful to the guy for what he did with DS9, but it seems like he wants in on every little bit of it. I've seen videos of him at conventions, and he tends to take all the spotlight.

[Adami]

You think the guy with the blue beard is an attention whore?

Hmmm

[Samsara]

So in that documentary where the writers brainstorm a season 8, do they discuss the part where Rom get's thrown off the roof of a very tall building? The Ferengi aren't exactly known for being discrete or forgiving, and Rom's going back to fundamentally change their culture to one that apes the hu-mon's "enlightenment." Zek might have been able to pull it off. He was old and respected. Rom's a young idiot that nobody's ever heard of. He wouldn't last a week. Hell, Rom himself set out to assassinate Grand Nagus Quark, and that was over something trivial.

Some of these little details are interesting to me. Like how much does it suck to be the Breen at the end of the war? How many centuries does it take to shake off the stigma of being those guys that jumped in at the very end hoping to be on the winning side? The Kardassians are sympathetic here. The Breen are just a bunch of dicks.

Nope, didn't cover any of that at all.

I actually wasn't too fond of the writers room because you had some FANTASTIC people in there who basically got sidelined by Ira and I think 1-2 others who essentially did the whole thing while people like Ron Moore just watched.

Well, remember, the writer's room stuff wasn't the full footage. They were there for what, an eight-hour block? And we got approximately 20 minutes of those eight hours?

Your point about Ira is a good one, I think someone pitched an idea, and Ira changed it, and the writer was like "well, you're the lead writer." It wasn't said with any malice that I could detect, but Ira's personality does tend to dominate.

I enjoyed the writer's room segment for the outline of Season 8, episode 1. It really made me want it to be produced. A shame it won't be.

[ProfessorPeart]

Awesome tribute from Nana about Rene.

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/rene-auberjonois-remembered-by-star-trek-deep-space-nine-castmate-nana-visitor-1203429855/

[Samsara]

Awesome tribute from Nana about Rene.

https://variety.com/2019/tv/news/rene-auberjonois-remembered-by-star-trek-deep-space-nine-castmate-nana-visitor-1203429855/

That was wonderful. Thanks for the link.

[gmillerdrake]

Don't know if this has been mentioned yet in this thread but PICARD Season 2 has been renewed already

https://deadline.com/2019/12/star-trek-picard-renewed-season-two-patrick-stewart-cbs-all-access-1202809964/

[Adami]

Is season 1 out yet? Did anyone watch it?

[gmillerdrake]

Is season 1 out yet? Did anyone watch it?

Nope. Comes out January 23rd. They renewed S2 before S1 was even out. Must have some confidence in it or seen some sort of 'numbers' behind the interest.

[El Barto]

It could be Patrick Stewart reading the Yellow Pages and it'd get renewed for a second season. They know people will watch it even if it sucks.

[Adami]

It could be Patrick Stewart reading the Yellow Pages and it'd get renewed for a second season. They know people will watch it even if it sucks.

It's also a good marketing tool.

Wow it must be really good if it's already getting renewed! Best check that out!

[El Barto]

On an unrelated note, B'Elanna Torres is the worst Klingon in the history of the show. Not talking about the mostly human hybrid chick she normally plays, but the real Klingon half of her as created by the Vedians. All she does is talk. . . . .very. . . . . very. . . . . slow. When Siddig al Twentysevendifferentarabnames played a bad guy he always did the same thing, which sucked, but was nowhere near as bad as Dawson. I've been cruising through VOY and mostly enjoying it, but this is insufferable.

[Adami]

On an unrelated note, B'Elanna Torres is the worst Klingon in the history of the show. Not talking about the mostly human hybrid chick she normally plays, but the real Klingon half of her as created by the Vedians. All she does is talk. . . . .very. . . . . very. . . . . slow. When Siddig al Twentysevendifferentarabnames played a bad guy he always did the same thing, which sucked, but was nowhere near as bad as Dawson. I've been cruising through VOY and mostly enjoying it, but this is insufferable.

They pulled a Shatner?

[El Barto]

On an unrelated note, B'Elanna Torres is the worst Klingon in the history of the show. Not talking about the mostly human hybrid chick she normally plays, but the real Klingon half of her as created by the Vedians. All she does is talk. . . . .very. . . . . very. . . . . slow. When Siddig al Twentysevendifferentarabnames played a bad guy he always did the same thing, which sucked, but was nowhere near as bad as Dawson. I've been cruising through VOY and mostly enjoying it, but this is insufferable.

They pulled a Shatner?

Yep, except Shatner pulled it off. He was fine as both the psycho and the wuss. Dawson not so much.

[Grappler]

I just learned that Amazon Prime Video will have Star Trek: Picard videos within 24 hours of their air-date on CBS All Access.

 

[gmillerdrake]

I just learned that Amazon Prime Video will have Star Trek: Picard videos within 24 hours of their air-date on CBS All Access.

 

Nice! This is good news.....

[Adami]

Oh yea?

Guess I can watch it without feeling dirty for paying for CBS!

[hefdaddy42]

I just learned that Amazon Prime Video will have Star Trek: Picard videos within 24 hours of their air-date on CBS All Access.

 

The only thing I've seen is that it will be on Amazon Prime internationally.

I haven't seen anything about that happening here in the U.S.