Author Topic: Star Trek: Thread Space 9  (Read 273067 times)

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Offline Samsara

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4445 on: April 13, 2023, 02:13:12 PM »
Same. Man, allergies were a bitch that last segment.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4446 on: April 13, 2023, 10:45:43 PM »
OK, so I just watched the most recent episode.

Adami….my dear friend… you are literally among my top 3 favorite people here, and I honestly feel a measure of brotherly love for you.

…but… you’re wrong and I’m going to tell you why.  :lol :lol

The reason why the heavy nostalgia works right now, on this show, right now can be summed up in one word.  NEMESIS.

The way you felt about the first two seasons of Picard is exactly the way I felt about Nemesis.  It is the only Star Trek that ever actively pissed me off with how terrible it was. And the fact that it was the TNG crew’s last hurrah made it all the more insulting. Even as I think about it now, it irritates me. It would be like if Metallica had retired right after releasing St. Anger and Lulu back to back. That’s how bad Nemesis was. The TNG crew deserved better, and they knew it. Even as they were trying to promote Nemesis there was an air of disappointment. They knew they had all been robbed of a decent send off, and they shared their fan’s disappointment.

But now, TNG finally has a halfway decent “victory lap”.  We NEEDED this. Heck, THEY NEEDED THIS.  This is to TNG what The Undiscovered Country was to the OG crew. Ya, it’s not Wrath of Khan, but it was a way to get the stink of FF out of everyone’s mouth.

But ya, it was pretty nostalgia heavy. I’ll give you that. I just hope you rethink it from that perspective and warm up to it a bit more.

Nothing but bromance for ya…
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4447 on: April 14, 2023, 02:58:36 AM »
What was behind the door? Well it was already predicted by someone else in this thread and it was soooooo dumb.

Please don't tell me it was Neelix!

Better. It was Tuvix!

Wow I'd actually forgotten that was a thing, so please imagine this this next line dripping with sarcasm - thanks for reminding me.

Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4448 on: April 14, 2023, 03:11:46 AM »
About Picard episode 9:

I was initially disappointed when the true villain behind the conspiracy was the (SPOILER). But, it sort of makes sense that they would show up now, as this is probably the swan song for the TNG crew.

The final scene was predictable, but it did make me very happy!

The final episode is bound to be a fan service extravaganza of epic proportions! :lol Place your bets on who are going to show up! In addition to Janeway showing up, let's just say Martok show's up with bunch of Klingons to kick some ass :biggrin:...

Offline Dream Team

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4449 on: April 14, 2023, 05:25:17 AM »
I’ve been surprised by the lack of Wesley. Or did he die and I forgot?

Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4450 on: April 14, 2023, 07:04:09 AM »
I’ve been surprised by the lack of Wesley. Or did he die and I forgot?

He made a cameo in the 2nd season (I think? Maybe 1st) but he already announced he would not be on this season.
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Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4451 on: April 14, 2023, 07:11:38 AM »
I really loved this season personally. Yes it's full of nostalgia but at this point that's what I want from this crew. There are other series in the lineup that provide new content but I'm completely in it for the nostalgia, story, and surpringly good acting.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4452 on: April 14, 2023, 08:38:15 AM »
OK, so I just watched the most recent episode.

Adami….my dear friend… you are literally among my top 3 favorite people here, and I honestly feel a measure of brotherly love for you.

…but… you’re wrong and I’m going to tell you why.  :lol :lol

The reason why the heavy nostalgia works right now, on this show, right now can be summed up in one word.  NEMESIS.

The way you felt about the first two seasons of Picard is exactly the way I felt about Nemesis.  It is the only Star Trek that ever actively pissed me off with how terrible it was. And the fact that it was the TNG crew’s last hurrah made it all the more insulting. Even as I think about it now, it irritates me. It would be like if Metallica had retired right after releasing St. Anger and Lulu back to back. That’s how bad Nemesis was. The TNG crew deserved better, and they knew it. Even as they were trying to promote Nemesis there was an air of disappointment. They knew they had all been robbed of a decent send off, and they shared their fan’s disappointment.

But now, TNG finally has a halfway decent “victory lap”.  We NEEDED this. Heck, THEY NEEDED THIS.  This is to TNG what The Undiscovered Country was to the OG crew. Ya, it’s not Wrath of Khan, but it was a way to get the stink of FF out of everyone’s mouth.

But ya, it was pretty nostalgia heavy. I’ll give you that. I just hope you rethink it from that perspective and warm up to it a bit more.

Nothing but bromance for ya…

So, I feel ya, I love ya, and I need ya. Or something.

But we're not that far off from each other. I stand by saying "It was so predictable. So telegraphed. So obvious. So cheap. I'm angry at myself for letting it work. Yea, I had the feels, even though I recognized how lazy it all was. I can't defend it at all, but it had some impact on me."

It WAS predictable and cheap and forth and didn't make a ton of external sense, AND it had an impact on me. Obviously seeing everyone on the D doing their thing had an effect. But I won't say it was very well done, it was cheap and obvious but still largely effective. So I'm mixed on that.

And, oddly enough, final episode aside, I would compare this show....STRICTLY quality wise, to Nemesis more than anything else. It's a bit better than Nemesis and will hopefully have a much better ending and send off, but the writing quality is pretty similar to me. A really bad story line that makes little sense, everything is dark and evil, blah blah Picard offspring (or clone or whatever), blah blah action and fighting non-stop, and some good character moments mixed in. This show has better character moments and a dumber story, so I'm putting it a bit above Nemesis.

But at this point, to me, and possibly only to me, this season is just fan-fiction. It's writers using toys other shows already gave them and doing wish fulfillment. There's no new stories here or new exploration or any of that. It's simply people writing fan-fiction and being lucky enough to get the whole cast for it. So I'll watch the last episode with that mentality. I'll try to enjoy the nostalgia of everyone back together. I'll look out for the endless cameos/member berries they'll cram in as well and try not to expect anything more than that. Which, in and of itself, is sad for me.

That said, I did have an idea for the very ending that is Star Treky and hopefully something they try to do. Since the Borg are about to (and obviously will) destroy much of Earth's defenses and such, I think after it's all said and done, it'd be cool to see a ton of other federation and allied species coming to help earth and be there for them the way Starfleet has been there for others. So an ending show of Earth with Vulcan, Klingon, Ferengi, Bajoran, maybe even Romulan ships, etc all working together to help Starfleet rebuild would be a nice ending. Doubtful, but I can see it as a possibility.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4453 on: April 14, 2023, 09:53:26 AM »
No, this hasn't been groundbreaking storytelling. However, as JD said, and I agree, there comes a point where you enjoy the victory lap. Speaking for myself, I've disliked TNG ever since First Contact. Everything has been so cold and calculated...and bland. But this season has been like a reunion with old friends, where everyone is different, but the unity and affection is still there. Yes, it's fan service. But I don't expect this crew and their story to "boldly go." I expect a proper send-off. I feel like based on this episode from yesterday, I could go from Season 7 to this season of Picard, and get the wrap (with having to research the stuff in-between) I wanted as a fan.

I hear ya, Adami, on all of your critiques. But for this late-40s fan, who cut his teeth on Trek in 1987 with Encounter at Farpoint (and the original series films, and later the series), this felt...much more...correct, to me. Fingers crossed the final episode will be great. Have a great weekend all. Live long and prosper...
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4454 on: April 14, 2023, 02:01:27 PM »
I'd say this is an example of needing to separate out the story/plot and the writing.  The story is a bit of a mess (although nothing outrageously removed from standard Trek) but the writing is great, the character work impartially is mostly outstanding too, yeah it leans heavenly on nostalgia, but that's fine for a show like this.
On saying that......Oh my God they killed Shaw, the bastards!

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4455 on: April 14, 2023, 02:22:17 PM »
The story isn't the worst I've ever seen and had potential, but the writing is actually pretty bad for 85% of the show I'd say. The character moments are so great and so lovely, that I'm shocked the same people writing those came up with a plot involving the borg hiring the changelings to input secret Picard DNA into transporters to take over everyone under 25 (and clearly a lot older than that) after the Starfleet (for some reason) decided it was a brilliant idea to create a star ship hive mind. I mean, that along with everything else plot was is so poorly written. Yet seeing Data put his hand on Picard's shoulder is fantastic. So the writing isn't 100% awful, they can do one thing right, and that's a very important thing. But if they kept these character moments and even 70% of the nostalgia (I didn't need Kirk's body, or Beverly's plant, or a vicious tribble, or Moriarty, etc.) and gave it a much better story with better writing, then I'd be on board. Seeing the crew back on the Enterprise D felt great, I just wish everything leading up to that was better.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4456 on: April 14, 2023, 04:08:23 PM »
Im shocked the same people writing those came up with a plot involving the borg hiring the changelings to input secret Picard DNA into transporters to take over everyone under 25 (and clearly a lot older than that) after the Starfleet (for some reason) decided it was a brilliant idea to create a star ship hive mind.

This is just sci-fi/trek concepts though, you can bullet point most episodes plots and call the sci-fi elements bad writing if you aren't willing to go along with it.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4457 on: April 14, 2023, 04:13:18 PM »
I’m willing to go along with good writing. I should have made it clear that some of the ideas they’re using are fine but very poorly executed. That’s the writing.

When old Star Trek had an awfully written story, it lasted 42 minutes. Now it lasts 10 hours. Makes much more noticeable.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4458 on: April 14, 2023, 07:21:43 PM »
Seeing the crew back on the Enterprise D felt great, I just wish everything leading up to that was better.

Sums it up for me, pretty much.  This is TNG coming full circle; they're not even trying to be subtle.  And that's fine.  I just wish the story overall was stronger.

Offline Polarbear

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4459 on: April 15, 2023, 10:37:42 AM »
Since we are now talking spoilers, I was initially disappointed that the Borg were behind all this. But they were the greatest enemy of the TNG era, so it's fitting that the TNG crew fights against them in their final victory lap. And hopefully, this means that everything that happened to the Borg in Picard season 2 is now retconned! The Borg queen is also played by Alice Krige once again! She is the Borg queen from First Contact.

And while the Borg scheme to assimilate the younger generation using transporters is pretty dumb imo, I did like the retcon that explained the irumodic syndrome, and linked it to Picard's post-assimilation Borg powers from First Contact.

I loved the return of Enterprise D, as everyone else also did. It's great that they build the bridge set again from scratch, and I hope that there are more Enterprise D sets not yet revealed. I'd love to see Ten Forward again!

This season is not perfect, but it is a fitting full circle to the TNG crew. I think this really could have worked as the fifth TNG movie, and I would have gone to see this in a theater. Let's hope the final episode delivers!

Offline jammindude

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4460 on: April 15, 2023, 11:21:28 AM »
Since we are now talking spoilers, I was initially disappointed that the Borg were behind all this. But they were the greatest enemy of the TNG era, so it's fitting that the TNG crew fights against them in their final victory lap. And hopefully, this means that everything that happened to the Borg in Picard season 2 is now retconned! The Borg queen is also played by Alice Krige once again! She is the Borg queen from First Contact.

And while the Borg scheme to assimilate the younger generation using transporters is pretty dumb imo, I did like the retcon that explained the irumodic syndrome, and linked it to Picard's post-assimilation Borg powers from First Contact.

I loved the return of Enterprise D, as everyone else also did. It's great that they build the bridge set again from scratch, and I hope that there are more Enterprise D sets not yet revealed. I'd love to see Ten Forward again!

This season is not perfect, but it is a fitting full circle to the TNG crew. I think this really could have worked as the fifth TNG movie, and I would have gone to see this in a theater. Let's hope the final episode delivers!

All of this.

Adami pointed to some similarities to Nemesis that I hadn’t considered…but it wasn’t the idea of Nemesis that bothered me. It was the execution. It was almost like someone who hated Star Trek did a Star Trek movie just because he wanted to troll ST fans. Like whoever was responsible for it hated everything about the fans, the crew, and the culture.

Yes…I really hate that movie.

But this does feel like the Nemesis that could have been. And it would have been miles better than what we got.
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Offline DoctorAction

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4461 on: April 15, 2023, 03:59:21 PM »
I've never trusted Borg and I never will. I can never forgive them for being used all the bloody time because NOBODY working on the shows has ANY new ideas.

It's nowhere near good but they have the cast and the money, so, among the dreck, there are moments of cast interaction that have been lovely to watch.

I enjoyed seeing the D very much too.  :azn:

Adami, you must have been beyond delighted to have seen a well-lit, beige starship bridge!
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Offline YtseJam

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4462 on: April 15, 2023, 07:27:26 PM »
So sick of the Borg. every time they had writers block, the borg. Hmm I know the borg. The boring

Offline ReaperKK

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4463 on: April 15, 2023, 07:49:12 PM »
While I do agree that it's fitting to have the borg come full circle for TNG I read some online theories about it possibly being pah-wraith working with the changlings and I just think that would've been so killer. We learned so little about the pah-wraiths in DS9 and it would've been cool to see the story go there.

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4464 on: April 16, 2023, 01:15:06 AM »
I never thought it was the Pah-Wraiths because there has been no connection to DS9 (Changelings aside) during the first 8 episodes.  The Borg were really the only villains of note in TNG and their episodes were fan favourites, as well as First Contact be far and away the best TNG film.

Offline abydos

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4465 on: April 17, 2023, 07:30:22 AM »
Still haven't watched episode 9 but without getting too much into it, I don't like most of what I see and the one word I can ascribe to this type of plot is tiring and even exhausting at times.

I don't know where the writers that worked on DS9 and part of ENT are, but they seem to be the only ones that can write an interesting season-long arc of a story, at least for Trek.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4466 on: April 18, 2023, 08:38:02 AM »
I never thought it was the Pah-Wraiths because there has been no connection to DS9 (Changelings aside) during the first 8 episodes.  The Borg were really the only villains of note in TNG and their episodes were fan favourites, as well as First Contact be far and away the best TNG film.

I agree this is probably how the writers thought, and that's why I think it's largely fan-fiction. Satisfying or not. Because they weren't interesting in trying to tell a good story. They were interesting in reminding fans about what they liked about the show. And that's cool, I just wish they ALSO wrote a good story.
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Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4467 on: April 18, 2023, 09:27:09 AM »
I never thought it was the Pah-Wraiths because there has been no connection to DS9 (Changelings aside) during the first 8 episodes.  The Borg were really the only villains of note in TNG and their episodes were fan favourites, as well as First Contact be far and away the best TNG film.

I agree this is probably how the writers thought, and that's why I think it's largely fan-fiction. Satisfying or not. Because they weren't interesting in trying to tell a good story. They were interesting in reminding fans about what they liked about the show. And that's cool, I just wish they ALSO wrote a good story.

Compared to Season 2 this is a good story!

I read somewhere it was Patrick Stewart who didn't want the original crew in 'Picard', which is weird and a massive shame - I know you aren't the biggest fan but even you'll admit this season is a massive upgrade on what went before. 

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4468 on: April 18, 2023, 09:43:24 AM »
Just guessing here, but Stewart probably didn't want the original TNG reunited because it would be like going backwards, when the whole idea of the show is what Picard is now, where he's been lately, and where he's going.  Instead, while it's been a wonderful nostalgia-fest, that's pretty much all it's been.  The first two seasons weren't any better, but at least they tried some new things, even if they also relied heavily on stuff from Picard's (and TNG's) past.

Offline Adami

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4469 on: April 18, 2023, 09:54:08 AM »
I never thought it was the Pah-Wraiths because there has been no connection to DS9 (Changelings aside) during the first 8 episodes.  The Borg were really the only villains of note in TNG and their episodes were fan favourites, as well as First Contact be far and away the best TNG film.

I agree this is probably how the writers thought, and that's why I think it's largely fan-fiction. Satisfying or not. Because they weren't interesting in trying to tell a good story. They were interesting in reminding fans about what they liked about the show. And that's cool, I just wish they ALSO wrote a good story.

Compared to Season 2 this is a good story!

I read somewhere it was Patrick Stewart who didn't want the original crew in 'Picard', which is weird and a massive shame - I know you aren't the biggest fan but even you'll admit this season is a massive upgrade on what went before.

Completely agree. Doesn't make it a good story though. Obviously the first two seasons are a masterclass in terrible ideas. This story isn't AWFUL, it's just not very good and especially executed poorly. But I look at a movie like Endgame. TONS of fan service and nostalgia. But it's all built around a great emotional story that you're invested in. How many of us are praising the story of this season? Best I can see is you have me downing it, a few other people downing it, and the rest of everyone talking about how amazing the nostalgia and character moments are (which they are). No one here seems to give a crap about Jack Crusher being a new generation of Borg being sought by rogue changelings after they team up with the Borg to assimilate everyone under 25 via putting Picard's DNA into transporters. It's just nonsense on top of nonsense. The best people seem to be saying is that it's something they can put up with while they wait for more nostalgia.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4470 on: April 18, 2023, 01:05:16 PM »
When the Borg attacked in TNG and the Federation and basically all known humanoid life was in danger, it was a serious threat and scary as hell. 

When the Founders attacked in DS9 and the Federation and basically all known humanoid life was in danger, it too was a serious threat and scary as hell.

Here, we've got the two biggest, baddest badguys in all of Trek, teamed up, threatening everything everywhere all at once, plus the literal Next Generation of Trek, and it's all just so damned stupid that we don't even care.  I want to see Worf cut off some more heads with his Bat'leth.  Beverly looks kinda weird now for some reason but Deanna is still pretty fit for 60-something years old.  I'm glad they gave up on making Data yellow plastic and found something like a plausible explanation for him looking 60-something (though he's really 70-something but with Hollywood makeup).  And that's what I care about because the rest is all so crazy stupid and ultimately won't matter because you know we'll win anyway.

Offline Samsara

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4471 on: April 18, 2023, 01:31:09 PM »
re: Patrick Stewart and the "moving forward" aspect of his character

I also remember Stewart being very adamant that in order for him to do the series, it had to be more about where the character has gone, as opposed to old connections. I think they all quickly realized though, through the slosh of season 1, and that of season 2 (which I didn't bother with), that the chemistry between the actors/characters was too good to pass up and things changed.

In a vacuum, I agreed with Stewart prior to Season One - I wanted them to "boldly go" on a different type of story, not going back to the TNG model. But what they came up with was so bad, IMO, the Trekker in me is absolutely thankful they shifted gears and delivered the TNG fan service route for Season 3. It just works better, and the connection and chemistry are there. Story holes aside, it has been a fun romp, and I am really glad they did it. Hope it ends great.
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Offline abydos

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4472 on: April 19, 2023, 01:16:09 AM »
And that's what I care about because the rest is all so crazy stupid and ultimately won't matter because you know we'll win anyway.
Yeah, but imagine if they want to be "original" and modern and edgy and decide to surprise us by killing off one or some of the main characters. That's totally something I can see them thinking it's a cool idea.

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4473 on: April 19, 2023, 01:21:07 AM »
And that's what I care about because the rest is all so crazy stupid and ultimately won't matter because you know we'll win anyway.
Yeah, but imagine if they want to be "original" and modern and edgy and decide to surprise us by killing off one or some of the main characters. That's totally something I can see them thinking it's a cool idea.

I fully expect there to be a death or two.

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4474 on: April 19, 2023, 01:34:34 AM »
When the Borg attacked in TNG and the Federation and basically all known humanoid life was in danger, it was a serious threat and scary as hell. 

When the Founders attacked in DS9 and the Federation and basically all known humanoid life was in danger, it too was a serious threat and scary as hell.

I do remember the Borg being defeated in Best of Both Worlds by being put into sleep mode which was pretty damn stupid ;D  (which they'll probably repeat in the next episode of Picard  ;) ).

I actually quite like the idea of uploading a virus into the federation transporters, the transporters in Trek are second only to the Holosuit decks as tech that seems to exist only to malfunction and do random stuff.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4475 on: April 19, 2023, 07:38:17 AM »
I can see them including a main cast death or two, but I have the feeling that Shaw was the sacrificial lamb.  The rest will survive.  Maybe Jack will die or become something else, kinda like Wesley did.  That's so lame and predictable that they'll probably do something like that.

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4476 on: April 19, 2023, 07:51:47 AM »
I can see them including a main cast death or two, but I have the feeling that Shaw was the sacrificial lamb.  The rest will survive.  Maybe Jack will die or become something else, kinda like Wesley did.  That's so lame and predictable that they'll probably do something like that.

I'm actually think Picard may die, giving his life so Jack may live - or something.

Offline abydos

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4477 on: April 19, 2023, 07:58:34 AM »
I'm actually fine with them killing off Picard, he's dead already anyway. I'm a bit indifferent to sad about Shaw's death as it didn't really do anything for the story and they removed the one kind of cool new character they added.

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4478 on: April 19, 2023, 08:42:03 AM »
For all of this season's flaws, the biggest for me is killing off Shaw.  Terrible move.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline soupytwist

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Re: Star Trek: Thread Space 9
« Reply #4479 on: April 19, 2023, 09:00:27 AM »
For all of this season's flaws, the biggest for me is killing off Shaw.  Terrible move.

It's possible he survived?  I mean it's Star Trek so there are numerous ways he could be brought back to life if they wanted too.